EVIL Miscreant is the main problem here with 5 health. After playing it, it generally lives a turn, allowing you to shadowstep/wagglepick it back to hand, replay it for 1 and get even more 1-cost minions which are amazing combo enablers as well as some just being good (ethereal and kobold!).
The games I lose playing the deck are where I don't find any of 1) EVIL Miscreant or 2) Raiding Party. Tempo Rogue runs out of steam pretty quick without those.
Still, 60% win-rate... is it really that out of control? I dunno, give it a few weeks at least.
After reading through the posts on here I can tell that there are problems with many of the nerfs that people are calling for. As an example, people are calling for a nerf to raiding party to not include the draw a weapon or maybe cost one more mana. In that regard, how would it be much different from the mage card Arcane Intellect? The fact that it requires a combo is part of why it allows an extra draw. Also nerfing or HoFing cards like sap or prep is not a solution either. Rogue does one thing really well: tempo. It doesn't contain class taunts, class heals, or strong board removal. If you take out these core cards (or nerf them), then rogue will suffer harshly now and well into the future.
That does not mean I think some cards shouldn't be nerfed. Wagglepick shouldn't lose its identity, and therefore should still have its primary uses without being too strong. Hence, a nerf to become a 3/2 weapon with everything else the same would keep the card useful but not turn four oppressive. The other card I would nerf is the one people have been calling for: Edwin. Instead of +2/+2 I agree with the +2/+1. I feel rogues should still be rewarded for their shenanigans, but at a more reasonable rate. People say "why not just run silence?" but then it becomes an issue with weakening the deck overall to other decks they may face.
Tldr: People are picking on the wrong rogue cards, or going about it the wrong way
Why would you nerf so many rogue cards? This class is supposely be tricky and preparation is just ok, that's what make rogue special but it doesn't make rogue any stronger because no matter how you look on it, you lose 2 card space if you use prep and it give you 3 mana cost less on a single spell.
I laughed abit when I saw Sap nerf, 4 mana and it's better than poly? Well, you may not know this game well.
Heh - I've actually been campaigning for Sap to be dropped down to 1 mana for some time now. At 2 mana it's too underpowered for most uses. The idea tat someone thinks it should be actually made even worse than it is is frankly hilarious! Lol!
The amount of times I play against rogue in the latter turns and think about worst case scenarios it's includes sap most of the time. sap is by no means underpowered, I can actually see blizzard nerfing it to 3, I am not really into nerfing it but I think the card is on the strong side of the rogue toolkit, even if it's normally a 1 of it's mostly because it's not good against opposing rogues and rushing mechs of warrior..
But that would lead to a huge power spike for Odd Rogue in wild. Remember? That mode still exists...
huge? nah I don't think it's such a big deal odd rogue doesn't have prep.. sap is by no means a 4 mana effect though I mean.. you can kill a minion for 4 if it's undamaged or for 5 for no condition...
it will be played there for sure but it won't break the deck, if does already way more broken stuff
Why would you nerf so many rogue cards? This class is supposely be tricky and preparation is just ok, that's what make rogue special but it doesn't make rogue any stronger because no matter how you look on it, you lose 2 card space if you use prep and it give you 3 mana cost less on a single spell.
I laughed abit when I saw Sap nerf, 4 mana and it's better than poly? Well, you may not know this game well.
Heh - I've actually been campaigning for Sap to be dropped down to 1 mana for some time now. At 2 mana it's too underpowered for most uses. The idea tat someone thinks it should be actually made even worse than it is is frankly hilarious! Lol!
The amount of times I play against rogue in the latter turns and think about worst case scenarios it's includes sap most of the time. sap is by no means underpowered, I can actually see blizzard nerfing it to 3, I am not really into nerfing it but I think the card is on the strong side of the rogue toolkit, even if it's normally a 1 of it's mostly because it's not good against opposing rogues and rushing mechs of warrior..
But that would lead to a huge power spike for Odd Rogue in wild. Remember? That mode still exists...
Not really, Ironbeak Owl wasn't played so Sap probably won't be either.
Besides, odd rogue is tier 2 anyway so a slight 'buff' wouldn't matter much anyway. Especially since kingsbane rogue will probably get gutted because of the standard nerfs.
Actually Owl is played at least 1 time in the highest winrate deck of odd rogue. And Sap is strictly better, cause it removes the body from play.
Highly debatable as sap doesn't give you a 2/1 nor does it put that minion's effects out of play as it can easily be replayed the turn after.
Not debatable at all. Sap is superior to owl at 3 mana because silenced minion still can trade off your board while sapped they cant. A 2/1 body rarely matters.
I would much, much rather have my opponent trade one or two of my minions, on his own turn, no less. Than deal with the very same 4/8 taunt lifesteal a turn later that will kill off one of my minions regardless or a 3/9 taunt that spawns even more taunts.
And yes, a 2/1 body is still better than no body at all. You claiming that sap is strictly better than owl is just plain wrong.
This post is golden. I can’t remember one single expansion in which rogue was bad. All other classes have had their share of bad expansions. Rogue has always gotten away with it
played rogue on first day. Warriors with weapon removal, mages with double oozes and harrisson, hunters with oozes, ROGUES with oozes, shaman with Oozes...if you dont think weapon removal doesnt need nerfs, go try and play rogue yourself. ROgue does not need any nerfs
All the crying about raiding party or a big edwin on should stop. I also get giants against me on turn 3 or a hunter with 3 mechs on turn 1, druid with a full board of small shit I cant clear etc.
played rogue on first day. Warriors with weapon removal, mages with double oozes and harrisson, hunters with oozes, ROGUES with oozes, shaman with Oozes...if you dont think weapon removal doesnt need nerfs, go try and play rogue yourself. ROgue does not need any nerfs
Even with all that tech, only Warrior has positive wr against Rogue. You are just giving more reasons for nerfing Rogue.
played rogue on first day. Warriors with weapon removal, mages with double oozes and harrisson, hunters with oozes, ROGUES with oozes, shaman with Oozes...if you dont think weapon removal doesnt need nerfs, go try and play rogue yourself. ROgue does not need any nerfs
Even with all that tech, only Warrior has positive wr against Rogue. You are just giving more reasons for nerfing Rogue.
Muck Shaman does reall well against Rogue, from my own experience. In fact, I can't remember the last time I lost to Rogue using the version I run. Of course it tends to suffer against heavy aggro zoo decks etc.
As a Rogue fan, i came to the conclusion that Raiding Party is too efficient and Waggle Pick should not exist at all in Rogue.
The class is built upon smart weapons and weapon buffs: Big weapons break the paradigm and provide Rogues with an amount of excessive burst, that is just too easy to activate.
HOWEVER, i am sure we will end up with a nerf on Preparation instead. Which would probably patch up the current meta, while breaking the Rogue class at its core. But that's irrelevant to them, as shown during the pre-RoS Druid class state in both modes...
I really like your analyze, really well done I must say.
Looking for weapons felt like it was essential in Kingsbane as that was the entire point of the deck. There Rogues still had to build the weapon up from scratch, which felt more fair. As you say, big weapons in rogue is a bad idea, and the combination of Raiding Party and Waggle Pick is obnoxious to play against when the bounces enabables such powerful combos. Rogue has such cool tools with the steal/card generation, Shark Shrine and the new Togwaggle legendary. Would be sad to screw up the possibilities there by messing with the more generic supporting cards. Maybe considering sending Leeroy to a nursing home isn't that bad of an idea either, it's like the last legendary that hasn't been Hall of Famed despite being part of the meta almost through all the history of the game.
I also agree with you that prep is likely to see a nerf, but I would like to remind you that maybe if they "only" nerf prep, that can let Rogue keep other core cards intact and still have it's initial identity while maybe enabling new card development. This felt like something they waited with so long with Druid that when they finally decided to deal with the issues they went balls deep and touched to many cards. And to be fair prep is and have always been a busted card so nerfing it a tat isn't gonna make it bad.
Blizzard is stupid in general, and that's why they lose players with time.
Prep has been fine for so many years, as has edwin, but suddenly they make 3-4 unbalanced cards because they can't design even if their lives depended on it and prep is op.
played rogue on first day. Warriors with weapon removal, mages with double oozes and harrisson, hunters with oozes, ROGUES with oozes, shaman with Oozes...if you dont think weapon removal doesnt need nerfs, go try and play rogue yourself. ROgue does not need any nerfs
Even with all that tech, only Warrior has positive wr against Rogue. You are just giving more reasons for nerfing Rogue.
played rogue on first day. Warriors with weapon removal, mages with double oozes and harrisson, hunters with oozes, ROGUES with oozes, shaman with Oozes...if you dont think weapon removal doesnt need nerfs, go try and play rogue yourself. ROgue does not need any nerfs
Even with all that tech, only Warrior has positive wr against Rogue. You are just giving more reasons for nerfing Rogue.
played rogue on first day. Warriors with weapon removal, mages with double oozes and harrisson, hunters with oozes, ROGUES with oozes, shaman with Oozes...if you dont think weapon removal doesnt need nerfs, go try and play rogue yourself. ROgue does not need any nerfs
Even with all that tech, only Warrior has positive wr against Rogue. You are just giving more reasons for nerfing Rogue.
That shows all decks. Do you know how many play with oozes and how many without? My guess is most of those decks play without oozes because people prefer to complain about rogue on the forums rather that put them in their decks..
Nerf it to give only 1 lackey and you will see Rogue's winrate drop fast, but still be playable. I don't want a entire class to be dead for 1 expansion just because people always want to nerf the tier 1 deck. Then they will want to nerf Warrior, then Druid, until Silence Priest is tier 1.
That shows all decks. Do you know how many play with oozes and how many without? My guess is most of those decks play without oozes because people prefer to complain about rogue on the forums rather that put them in their decks..
This shows the average deck archetypes. Khadgar mage and control shaman run multiple weapon removal cards by default and are still unfavored against rogue.
Besides, if you think that it's fine that every deck 'just' needs to waste 2-4 of their card slots on weapon removal to have a chance at beating rogue then your view is wrong from the get-go.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
EVIL Miscreant is the main problem here with 5 health. After playing it, it generally lives a turn, allowing you to shadowstep/wagglepick it back to hand, replay it for 1 and get even more 1-cost minions which are amazing combo enablers as well as some just being good (ethereal and kobold!).
The games I lose playing the deck are where I don't find any of 1) EVIL Miscreant or 2) Raiding Party. Tempo Rogue runs out of steam pretty quick without those.
Still, 60% win-rate... is it really that out of control? I dunno, give it a few weeks at least.
Ibn Fahd.
After reading through the posts on here I can tell that there are problems with many of the nerfs that people are calling for. As an example, people are calling for a nerf to raiding party to not include the draw a weapon or maybe cost one more mana. In that regard, how would it be much different from the mage card Arcane Intellect? The fact that it requires a combo is part of why it allows an extra draw. Also nerfing or HoFing cards like sap or prep is not a solution either. Rogue does one thing really well: tempo. It doesn't contain class taunts, class heals, or strong board removal. If you take out these core cards (or nerf them), then rogue will suffer harshly now and well into the future.
That does not mean I think some cards shouldn't be nerfed. Wagglepick shouldn't lose its identity, and therefore should still have its primary uses without being too strong. Hence, a nerf to become a 3/2 weapon with everything else the same would keep the card useful but not turn four oppressive. The other card I would nerf is the one people have been calling for: Edwin. Instead of +2/+2 I agree with the +2/+1. I feel rogues should still be rewarded for their shenanigans, but at a more reasonable rate. People say "why not just run silence?" but then it becomes an issue with weakening the deck overall to other decks they may face.
Tldr: People are picking on the wrong rogue cards, or going about it the wrong way
huge? nah I don't think it's such a big deal odd rogue doesn't have prep.. sap is by no means a 4 mana effect though I mean.. you can kill a minion for 4 if it's undamaged or for 5 for no condition...
it will be played there for sure but it won't break the deck, if does already way more broken stuff
I would much, much rather have my opponent trade one or two of my minions, on his own turn, no less. Than deal with the very same 4/8 taunt lifesteal a turn later that will kill off one of my minions regardless or a 3/9 taunt that spawns even more taunts.
And yes, a 2/1 body is still better than no body at all. You claiming that sap is strictly better than owl is just plain wrong.
Really? You know that Hex and Flametongue totem are basic cards?
This post is golden. I can’t remember one single expansion in which rogue was bad. All other classes have had their share of bad expansions. Rogue has always gotten away with it
Ignore that. Misread the post
played rogue on first day. Warriors with weapon removal, mages with double oozes and harrisson, hunters with oozes, ROGUES with oozes, shaman with Oozes...if you dont think weapon removal doesnt need nerfs, go try and play rogue yourself. ROgue does not need any nerfs
All the crying about raiding party or a big edwin on should stop. I also get giants against me on turn 3 or a hunter with 3 mechs on turn 1, druid with a full board of small shit I cant clear etc.
Even with all that tech, only Warrior has positive wr against Rogue. You are just giving more reasons for nerfing Rogue.
Muck Shaman does reall well against Rogue, from my own experience. In fact, I can't remember the last time I lost to Rogue using the version I run. Of course it tends to suffer against heavy aggro zoo decks etc.
As a Rogue fan, i came to the conclusion that Raiding Party is too efficient and Waggle Pick should not exist at all in Rogue.
The class is built upon smart weapons and weapon buffs: Big weapons break the paradigm and provide Rogues with an amount of excessive burst, that is just too easy to activate.
HOWEVER, i am sure we will end up with a nerf on Preparation instead. Which would probably patch up the current meta, while breaking the Rogue class at its core. But that's irrelevant to them, as shown during the pre-RoS Druid class state in both modes...
I really like your analyze, really well done I must say.
Looking for weapons felt like it was essential in Kingsbane as that was the entire point of the deck. There Rogues still had to build the weapon up from scratch, which felt more fair.
As you say, big weapons in rogue is a bad idea, and the combination of Raiding Party and Waggle Pick is obnoxious to play against when the bounces enabables such powerful combos. Rogue has such cool tools with the steal/card generation, Shark Shrine and the new Togwaggle legendary. Would be sad to screw up the possibilities there by messing with the more generic supporting cards.
Maybe considering sending Leeroy to a nursing home isn't that bad of an idea either, it's like the last legendary that hasn't been Hall of Famed despite being part of the meta almost through all the history of the game.
I also agree with you that prep is likely to see a nerf, but I would like to remind you that maybe if they "only" nerf prep, that can let Rogue keep other core cards intact and still have it's initial identity while maybe enabling new card development. This felt like something they waited with so long with Druid that when they finally decided to deal with the issues they went balls deep and touched to many cards.
And to be fair prep is and have always been a busted card so nerfing it a tat isn't gonna make it bad.
Waggle Pick is a fucking disgusting card, not sure how many bullshit weapon cards need to be printed for Rogue tbh
Blizzard is stupid in general, and that's why they lose players with time.
Prep has been fine for so many years, as has edwin, but suddenly they make 3-4 unbalanced cards because they can't design even if their lives depended on it and prep is op.
Stupidity at its best
And where do you get those facts from?
https://hsreplay.net/archetypes/169/tempo-rogue#tab=matchups
Raiding Party bumped up to 4 mana
Preparation changed to "The next spell in this turn that cost [3] or less now cost [0]"
Waggle Pick changed to "Dr: return a random friendly minion to your hand."
Any 2 of these nerfs are good imho to fix quite a lot of problems.
That shows all decks. Do you know how many play with oozes and how many without? My guess is most of those decks play without oozes because people prefer to complain about rogue on the forums rather that put them in their decks..
Preparation, Raiding Party and Waggle Pick are not the problem here, but EVIL Miscreant is.
Nerf it to give only 1 lackey and you will see Rogue's winrate drop fast, but still be playable. I don't want a entire class to be dead for 1 expansion just because people always want to nerf the tier 1 deck. Then they will want to nerf Warrior, then Druid, until Silence Priest is tier 1.
This shows the average deck archetypes. Khadgar mage and control shaman run multiple weapon removal cards by default and are still unfavored against rogue.
Besides, if you think that it's fine that every deck 'just' needs to waste 2-4 of their card slots on weapon removal to have a chance at beating rogue then your view is wrong from the get-go.