Let's compare: Arcane Intellect vs Raiding Party Arcane Intellect is arguably one of the best card draw in the game. yet it looks x trash compared with Raiding party.
Raiding Party tutors 2 specific cards and that already makes it a supeiror Arcane Intellect.
can also combo to draw 3 cards and again tutors a weapon.
even if this card was 5 mana i would still think it's too good
You should not compare cards between classes. Mage and other classes have cards that are obviously better than that of rogue. If you still want to compare it, why not with Book of Specters, which draws 3, for only 2 mana most of the times and is pretty amazing in giant mage
This ^^ - not to mention the fact that Raiding Party is super-restrictive in terms of both deck design and playability during the game as well as having an extra payment cost for it to be activated correctly. Arcane Intellect can be played any time and will alway draw you two cards as long as there are two+ cards left in your deck. Raiding party has a much larger possibility of even drawing nothing from your deck at times, if you've run out of pirates and weapons (which in most Tempo Rogue decks currently can happen often).
Why would you nerf so many rogue cards? This class is supposely be tricky and preparation is just ok, that's what make rogue special but it doesn't make rogue any stronger because no matter how you look on it, you lose 2 card space if you use prep and it give you 3 mana cost less on a single spell.
I laughed abit when I saw Sap nerf, 4 mana and it's better than poly? Well, you may not know this game well.
Why would you nerf so many rogue cards? This class is supposely be tricky and preparation is just ok, that's what make rogue special but it doesn't make rogue any stronger because no matter how you look on it, you lose 2 card space if you use prep and it give you 3 mana cost less on a single spell.
I laughed abit when I saw Sap nerf, 4 mana and it's better than poly? Well, you may not know this game well.
Heh - I've actually been campaigning for Sap to be dropped down to 1 mana for some time now. At 2 mana it's too underpowered for most uses. The idea tat someone thinks it should be actually made even worse than it is is frankly hilarious! Lol!
Why would you nerf so many rogue cards? This class is supposely be tricky and preparation is just ok, that's what make rogue special but it doesn't make rogue any stronger because no matter how you look on it, you lose 2 card space if you use prep and it give you 3 mana cost less on a single spell.
I laughed abit when I saw Sap nerf, 4 mana and it's better than poly? Well, you may not know this game well.
Heh - I've actually been campaigning for Sap to be dropped down to 1 mana for some time now. At 2 mana it's too underpowered for most uses. The idea tat someone thinks it should be actually made even worse than it is is frankly hilarious! Lol!
Maybe they're used to playing a class where sap is really strong against, something like mech hunter/paladin or wall priest. Sap is pretty bad against token and aggro, quite strong against a lot of midrange and control decks
Why would you nerf so many rogue cards? This class is supposely be tricky and preparation is just ok, that's what make rogue special but it doesn't make rogue any stronger because no matter how you look on it, you lose 2 card space if you use prep and it give you 3 mana cost less on a single spell.
I laughed abit when I saw Sap nerf, 4 mana and it's better than poly? Well, you may not know this game well.
Heh - I've actually been campaigning for Sap to be dropped down to 1 mana for some time now. At 2 mana it's too underpowered for most uses. The idea tat someone thinks it should be actually made even worse than it is is frankly hilarious! Lol!
The amount of times I play against rogue in the latter turns and think about worst case scenarios it's includes sap most of the time. sap is by no means underpowered, I can actually see blizzard nerfing it to 3, I am not really into nerfing it but I think the card is on the strong side of the rogue toolkit, even if it's normally a 1 of it's mostly because it's not good against opposing rogues and rushing mechs of warrior..
EVIL Miscreant needs to be hit, it's health should be 3, 5 health is just way too high for a card with that effect. Raiding Party should go to 4. Not sure what else can be done without nerfing the classic set, but Edwin, SI-7, Preparation, and Backstab may be looked at. I don't like the idea of nerfing those cards, I think this just goes back to having a rotating classic set, but I don't know where I stand on that, smarter people have better ideas than me on this.
Why would you nerf so many rogue cards? This class is supposely be tricky and preparation is just ok, that's what make rogue special but it doesn't make rogue any stronger because no matter how you look on it, you lose 2 card space if you use prep and it give you 3 mana cost less on a single spell.
I laughed abit when I saw Sap nerf, 4 mana and it's better than poly? Well, you may not know this game well.
Heh - I've actually been campaigning for Sap to be dropped down to 1 mana for some time now. At 2 mana it's too underpowered for most uses. The idea tat someone thinks it should be actually made even worse than it is is frankly hilarious! Lol!
The amount of times I play against rogue in the latter turns and think about worst case scenarios it's includes sap most of the time. sap is by no means underpowered, I can actually see blizzard nerfing it to 3, I am not really into nerfing it but I think the card is on the strong side of the rogue toolkit, even if it's normally a 1 of it's mostly because it's not good against opposing rogues and rushing mechs of warrior..
I think Sap's strength really only comes in the times it is used as tech against something powerful; for example, to deal with a Lucentbark, or something like a Malygos, that sort of thing - or where you were needing it to die to get a deathrattle effect etc. In those minor cases, the card seems super strong because it is is so heavily stacked against you - it's like having the opponent play Harrison Jones against your deck that replies on a weapon, etc.
But in the general run of things, it is not really that great, because the best case scenario is to delay a minion (and wasting 2 mana in the process). Even worse, if the minion has a Battlecry (which is more common right now in the current meta).
Perhaps the idea of it being 1 mana is overkill of course. That might be too strong. It needs somewhere in the middle of the 1 and 2 mana strength (which obviously makes it awkward to find the right balance)
Why would you nerf so many rogue cards? This class is supposely be tricky and preparation is just ok, that's what make rogue special but it doesn't make rogue any stronger because no matter how you look on it, you lose 2 card space if you use prep and it give you 3 mana cost less on a single spell.
I laughed abit when I saw Sap nerf, 4 mana and it's better than poly? Well, you may not know this game well.
Heh - I've actually been campaigning for Sap to be dropped down to 1 mana for some time now. At 2 mana it's too underpowered for most uses. The idea tat someone thinks it should be actually made even worse than it is is frankly hilarious! Lol!
The amount of times I play against rogue in the latter turns and think about worst case scenarios it's includes sap most of the time. sap is by no means underpowered, I can actually see blizzard nerfing it to 3, I am not really into nerfing it but I think the card is on the strong side of the rogue toolkit, even if it's normally a 1 of it's mostly because it's not good against opposing rogues and rushing mechs of warrior..
I think Sap's strength really only comes in the times it is used as tech against something powerful; for example, to deal with a Lucentbark, or something like a Malygos, that sort of thing - or where you were needing it to die to get a deathrattle effect etc. In those minor cases, the card seems super strong because it is is so heavily stacked against you - it's like having the opponent play Harrison Jones against your deck that replies on a weapon, etc.
But in the general run of things, it is not really that great, because the best case scenario is to delay a minion (and wasting 2 mana in the process). Even worse, if the minion has a Battlecry (which is more common right now in the current meta).
Perhaps the idea of it being 1 mana is overkill of course. That might be too strong. It needs somewhere in the middle of the 1 and 2 mana strength (which obviously makes it awkward to find the right balance)
I think it's more in the current aggro rogue builds about being able to deal with your opponents big taunts that are in the way of you delivering lethal. Usually when you're in that situation where someone drops a 5 or 6 or more mana taunt in your way, you should have enough damage you can push on board to finish up the next turn with eviscerates or other cards from hand. It also critically removes any magnetic buffs, so it's pretty easy to essentially kill off an opponent's wargear just for 2 mana.
And rogue is usually a tempo deck, it isn't about delaying the value but being a tempo play. When your opponent plays an 8 mana minion and you just sap it away for 2, that amount of tempo is pretty insane and game winning usually.
I agree that the pick or raiding party should get a nerf but calling nerfs for prep, backstab or edwin is just too much. These cards define the rogue class since the beginning and by nerfing them you would dig a grave for the whole rogue class.
Consider that Innervate, which gave 2 free mana, was nerfed into being a Counterfeit Coin for Druid.
Preparation gives even more free mana. Yes, it's restricted to spells, but free mana is free mana. You can use the rest of your mana on minions, so that restriction is trivial.
Cards that cheat mana are a problem. The mana economy exists for a reason, and it's a mistake to keep a card like that in the Classic set. They should Hall of Fame Prep and replace it with Counterfeit Coin.
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Why would you nerf so many rogue cards? This class is supposely be tricky and preparation is just ok, that's what make rogue special but it doesn't make rogue any stronger because no matter how you look on it, you lose 2 card space if you use prep and it give you 3 mana cost less on a single spell.
I laughed abit when I saw Sap nerf, 4 mana and it's better than poly? Well, you may not know this game well.
Heh - I've actually been campaigning for Sap to be dropped down to 1 mana for some time now. At 2 mana it's too underpowered for most uses. The idea tat someone thinks it should be actually made even worse than it is is frankly hilarious! Lol!
The amount of times I play against rogue in the latter turns and think about worst case scenarios it's includes sap most of the time. sap is by no means underpowered, I can actually see blizzard nerfing it to 3, I am not really into nerfing it but I think the card is on the strong side of the rogue toolkit, even if it's normally a 1 of it's mostly because it's not good against opposing rogues and rushing mechs of warrior..
But that would lead to a huge power spike for Odd Rogue in wild. Remember? That mode still exists...
Let's compare: Arcane Intellect vs Raiding Party Arcane Intellect is arguably one of the best card draw in the game. yet it looks x trash compared with Raiding party.
Raiding Party tutors 2 specific cards and that already makes it a supeiror Arcane Intellect.
can also combo to draw 3 cards and again tutors a weapon.
even if this card was 5 mana i would still think it's too good
You had a good point until your last line. A 5-cost combo card is unplayable, no matter what effect it has. Just look at Kidnapper, if you even knew that card exists since NO ONE plays it.
Excuse my? Vilspine was 5 mana and one of the best cards ever...
Why would you nerf so many rogue cards? This class is supposely be tricky and preparation is just ok, that's what make rogue special but it doesn't make rogue any stronger because no matter how you look on it, you lose 2 card space if you use prep and it give you 3 mana cost less on a single spell.
I laughed abit when I saw Sap nerf, 4 mana and it's better than poly? Well, you may not know this game well.
Heh - I've actually been campaigning for Sap to be dropped down to 1 mana for some time now. At 2 mana it's too underpowered for most uses. The idea tat someone thinks it should be actually made even worse than it is is frankly hilarious! Lol!
The amount of times I play against rogue in the latter turns and think about worst case scenarios it's includes sap most of the time. sap is by no means underpowered, I can actually see blizzard nerfing it to 3, I am not really into nerfing it but I think the card is on the strong side of the rogue toolkit, even if it's normally a 1 of it's mostly because it's not good against opposing rogues and rushing mechs of warrior..
But that would lead to a huge power spike for Odd Rogue in wild. Remember? That mode still exists...
Not really, Ironbeak Owl wasn't played so Sap probably won't be either.
Besides, odd rogue is tier 2 anyway so a slight 'buff' wouldn't matter much anyway. Especially since kingsbane rogue will probably get gutted because of the standard nerfs.
Why would you nerf so many rogue cards? This class is supposely be tricky and preparation is just ok, that's what make rogue special but it doesn't make rogue any stronger because no matter how you look on it, you lose 2 card space if you use prep and it give you 3 mana cost less on a single spell.
I laughed abit when I saw Sap nerf, 4 mana and it's better than poly? Well, you may not know this game well.
Heh - I've actually been campaigning for Sap to be dropped down to 1 mana for some time now. At 2 mana it's too underpowered for most uses. The idea tat someone thinks it should be actually made even worse than it is is frankly hilarious! Lol!
The amount of times I play against rogue in the latter turns and think about worst case scenarios it's includes sap most of the time. sap is by no means underpowered, I can actually see blizzard nerfing it to 3, I am not really into nerfing it but I think the card is on the strong side of the rogue toolkit, even if it's normally a 1 of it's mostly because it's not good against opposing rogues and rushing mechs of warrior..
But that would lead to a huge power spike for Odd Rogue in wild. Remember? That mode still exists...
Not really, Ironbeak Owl wasn't played so Sap probably won't be either.
Besides, odd rogue is tier 2 anyway so a slight 'buff' wouldn't matter much anyway. Especially since kingsbane rogue will probably get gutted because of the standard nerfs.
Actually Owl is played at least 1 time in the highest winrate deck of odd rogue. And Sap is strictly better, cause it removes the body from play.
Why would you nerf so many rogue cards? This class is supposely be tricky and preparation is just ok, that's what make rogue special but it doesn't make rogue any stronger because no matter how you look on it, you lose 2 card space if you use prep and it give you 3 mana cost less on a single spell.
I laughed abit when I saw Sap nerf, 4 mana and it's better than poly? Well, you may not know this game well.
Heh - I've actually been campaigning for Sap to be dropped down to 1 mana for some time now. At 2 mana it's too underpowered for most uses. The idea tat someone thinks it should be actually made even worse than it is is frankly hilarious! Lol!
The amount of times I play against rogue in the latter turns and think about worst case scenarios it's includes sap most of the time. sap is by no means underpowered, I can actually see blizzard nerfing it to 3, I am not really into nerfing it but I think the card is on the strong side of the rogue toolkit, even if it's normally a 1 of it's mostly because it's not good against opposing rogues and rushing mechs of warrior..
But that would lead to a huge power spike for Odd Rogue in wild. Remember? That mode still exists...
Not really, Ironbeak Owl wasn't played so Sap probably won't be either.
Besides, odd rogue is tier 2 anyway so a slight 'buff' wouldn't matter much anyway. Especially since kingsbane rogue will probably get gutted because of the standard nerfs.
Actually Owl is played at least 1 time in the highest winrate deck of odd rogue. And Sap is strictly better, cause it removes the body from play.
Highly debatable as sap doesn't give you a 2/1 nor does it put that minion's effects out of play as it can easily be replayed the turn after.
Why would you nerf so many rogue cards? This class is supposely be tricky and preparation is just ok, that's what make rogue special but it doesn't make rogue any stronger because no matter how you look on it, you lose 2 card space if you use prep and it give you 3 mana cost less on a single spell.
I laughed abit when I saw Sap nerf, 4 mana and it's better than poly? Well, you may not know this game well.
Heh - I've actually been campaigning for Sap to be dropped down to 1 mana for some time now. At 2 mana it's too underpowered for most uses. The idea tat someone thinks it should be actually made even worse than it is is frankly hilarious! Lol!
The amount of times I play against rogue in the latter turns and think about worst case scenarios it's includes sap most of the time. sap is by no means underpowered, I can actually see blizzard nerfing it to 3, I am not really into nerfing it but I think the card is on the strong side of the rogue toolkit, even if it's normally a 1 of it's mostly because it's not good against opposing rogues and rushing mechs of warrior..
But that would lead to a huge power spike for Odd Rogue in wild. Remember? That mode still exists...
Not really, Ironbeak Owl wasn't played so Sap probably won't be either.
Besides, odd rogue is tier 2 anyway so a slight 'buff' wouldn't matter much anyway. Especially since kingsbane rogue will probably get gutted because of the standard nerfs.
Actually Owl is played at least 1 time in the highest winrate deck of odd rogue. And Sap is strictly better, cause it removes the body from play.
Highly debatable as sap doesn't give you a 2/1 nor does it put that minion's effects out of play as it can easily be replayed the turn after.
Not debatable at all. Sap is superior to owl at 3 mana because silenced minion still can trade off your board while sapped they cant. A 2/1 body rarely matters.
You had a good point until your last line. A 5-cost combo card is unplayable, no matter what effect it has. Just look at Kidnapper, if you even knew that card exists since NO ONE plays it.
Excuse my? Vilspine was 5 mana and one of the best cards ever...
You're late to the party, bro. This was already brought up and answered on the last page, only about 2-3 posts down from the one you quoted. Try reading more than one comment before firing off a reply. Side note: people keep bringing up the idea that Vilespine Slayer is one of the best cards ever printed. And it was never nerfed. Hmmm ....
You had a good point until your last line. A 5-cost combo card is unplayable, no matter what effect it has. Just look at Kidnapper, if you even knew that card exists since NO ONE plays it.
Excuse my? Vilspine was 5 mana and one of the best cards ever...
You're late to the party, bro. This was already brought up and answered on the last page, only about 2-3 posts down from the one you quoted. Try reading more than one comment before firing off a reply. Side note: people keep bringing up the idea that Vilespine Slayer is one of the best cards ever printed. And it was never nerfed. Hmmm ....
Sorry for that, but that doesn't change the subject that it is one of the best cards ever printed.
Why has every card nerfed that is one of the best? There are plenty unnerfed ones that are arguably bonkers (mech warper, Barnes, Guldaan Hero, Sunkeeper Tarim or Zilliax, etc.)
Rogue always goes first?! Ur smoking... I don't play rogue and even I know that's not okay. I agree with most of the nerfs and would like to submit vendetta being a 1 cost if class card is in hand. You do have to think that rogue is built around combos and making combos more difficult does so much more than just nerfing the class, for example, that means Edwin gets nerfed, agent gets nerfed, aswell as evil miscreant just to name a few. Yes nerfs probably should happen but when they do they need to make sure not to destroy the playability of the class itself.
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This ^^ - not to mention the fact that Raiding Party is super-restrictive in terms of both deck design and playability during the game as well as having an extra payment cost for it to be activated correctly. Arcane Intellect can be played any time and will alway draw you two cards as long as there are two+ cards left in your deck.
Raiding party has a much larger possibility of even drawing nothing from your deck at times, if you've run out of pirates and weapons (which in most Tempo Rogue decks currently can happen often).
Why would you nerf so many rogue cards? This class is supposely be tricky and preparation is just ok, that's what make rogue special but it doesn't make rogue any stronger because no matter how you look on it, you lose 2 card space if you use prep and it give you 3 mana cost less on a single spell.
I laughed abit when I saw Sap nerf, 4 mana and it's better than poly? Well, you may not know this game well.
Heh - I've actually been campaigning for Sap to be dropped down to 1 mana for some time now. At 2 mana it's too underpowered for most uses. The idea tat someone thinks it should be actually made even worse than it is is frankly hilarious! Lol!
Maybe they're used to playing a class where sap is really strong against, something like mech hunter/paladin or wall priest. Sap is pretty bad against token and aggro, quite strong against a lot of midrange and control decks
The amount of times I play against rogue in the latter turns and think about worst case scenarios it's includes sap most of the time. sap is by no means underpowered, I can actually see blizzard nerfing it to 3, I am not really into nerfing it but I think the card is on the strong side of the rogue toolkit, even if it's normally a 1 of it's mostly because it's not good against opposing rogues and rushing mechs of warrior..
EVIL Miscreant needs to be hit, it's health should be 3, 5 health is just way too high for a card with that effect. Raiding Party should go to 4. Not sure what else can be done without nerfing the classic set, but Edwin, SI-7, Preparation, and Backstab may be looked at. I don't like the idea of nerfing those cards, I think this just goes back to having a rotating classic set, but I don't know where I stand on that, smarter people have better ideas than me on this.
I think Sap's strength really only comes in the times it is used as tech against something powerful; for example, to deal with a Lucentbark, or something like a Malygos, that sort of thing - or where you were needing it to die to get a deathrattle effect etc.
In those minor cases, the card seems super strong because it is is so heavily stacked against you - it's like having the opponent play Harrison Jones against your deck that replies on a weapon, etc.
But in the general run of things, it is not really that great, because the best case scenario is to delay a minion (and wasting 2 mana in the process). Even worse, if the minion has a Battlecry (which is more common right now in the current meta).
Perhaps the idea of it being 1 mana is overkill of course. That might be too strong. It needs somewhere in the middle of the 1 and 2 mana strength (which obviously makes it awkward to find the right balance)
LEAVE ROGUE ALONE
I think it's more in the current aggro rogue builds about being able to deal with your opponents big taunts that are in the way of you delivering lethal. Usually when you're in that situation where someone drops a 5 or 6 or more mana taunt in your way, you should have enough damage you can push on board to finish up the next turn with eviscerates or other cards from hand. It also critically removes any magnetic buffs, so it's pretty easy to essentially kill off an opponent's wargear just for 2 mana.
And rogue is usually a tempo deck, it isn't about delaying the value but being a tempo play. When your opponent plays an 8 mana minion and you just sap it away for 2, that amount of tempo is pretty insane and game winning usually.
Consider that Innervate, which gave 2 free mana, was nerfed into being a Counterfeit Coin for Druid.
Preparation gives even more free mana. Yes, it's restricted to spells, but free mana is free mana. You can use the rest of your mana on minions, so that restriction is trivial.
Cards that cheat mana are a problem. The mana economy exists for a reason, and it's a mistake to keep a card like that in the Classic set. They should Hall of Fame Prep and replace it with Counterfeit Coin.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
But that would lead to a huge power spike for Odd Rogue in wild. Remember? That mode still exists...
Always expect the unexpectable!
Excuse my? Vilspine was 5 mana and one of the best cards ever...
Always expect the unexpectable!
Not really, Ironbeak Owl wasn't played so Sap probably won't be either.
Besides, odd rogue is tier 2 anyway so a slight 'buff' wouldn't matter much anyway. Especially since kingsbane rogue will probably get gutted because of the standard nerfs.
Actually Owl is played at least 1 time in the highest winrate deck of odd rogue. And Sap is strictly better, cause it removes the body from play.
Always expect the unexpectable!
Highly debatable as sap doesn't give you a 2/1 nor does it put that minion's effects out of play as it can easily be replayed the turn after.
Not debatable at all. Sap is superior to owl at 3 mana because silenced minion still can trade off your board while sapped they cant. A 2/1 body rarely matters.
Always expect the unexpectable!
Lol, get good my friend
You're late to the party, bro. This was already brought up and answered on the last page, only about 2-3 posts down from the one you quoted. Try reading more than one comment before firing off a reply. Side note: people keep bringing up the idea that Vilespine Slayer is one of the best cards ever printed. And it was never nerfed. Hmmm ....
Sorry for that, but that doesn't change the subject that it is one of the best cards ever printed.
Why has every card nerfed that is one of the best? There are plenty unnerfed ones that are arguably bonkers (mech warper, Barnes, Guldaan Hero, Sunkeeper Tarim or Zilliax, etc.)
Always expect the unexpectable!
Rogue always goes first?! Ur smoking... I don't play rogue and even I know that's not okay. I agree with most of the nerfs and would like to submit vendetta being a 1 cost if class card is in hand. You do have to think that rogue is built around combos and making combos more difficult does so much more than just nerfing the class, for example, that means Edwin gets nerfed, agent gets nerfed, aswell as evil miscreant just to name a few. Yes nerfs probably should happen but when they do they need to make sure not to destroy the playability of the class itself.