I am sorry you are sad, but they were very bad for the game.
Were the three I listed really that bad for the game? Some were yes, I accept that...
Uther's no-interaction win condition was bad for the game, even if the winrate wasn't super high. There are few things I hate more than uninteractive win conditions. If Uther was just a big weapon and better hero power minions, that'd be fine.
They didn’t throw the concept away, and there’s nothing wrong with using design space for other cards rather than having a hero card every xpac to follow a trend
the death knight variants were overwhelmingly good over time when new pieces were added and old removed, same as dr. Boom who is now thriving in this early mech meta.
More will come, there’s literally nothing to complain about here. If you want “flavor” you can just use them in wild, that’s the whole point of the format.
Hero cards should definitely exist in standard. Without them the games always go to fatigue in control matchups which is really silly. Going to fatigue should rarely happen.
Fatigue is an important part of HS, why not.
If you can smorc down a player in 5 turn it is ok for me to kill you by fatigue damage too.
I spoke about flavour in the OP and listed 3 DK cards that are not even close to OP when compared with what Big Priest does in wild. I like how everyone upvoted how they "were bad for the game" but not one person has yet to adress my point - that they were full of flavour for the game that was good and NOT ALL of them were OP. Just becasue some were and blizzard didn't balance or nerf them after, you throw the whole idea in the trash? K.
I don't give a rat's ass about flavor if it breaks the game, so let's proceed with the rest of your post: "but also the way the new hero power could really change the flow and strategy of a game."
You then proceed to name two hero cards who did absolutely nothing to change the flow and strategy of a game. Thrall and Garrosh' hero powers were pretty much negligible as their battlecries are the only reason you would play them in very niche decks.
Uther, on the other hand, provided yet another OTK strategy and nothing more. Judging from the amount of hatred towards guaranteed OTK decks, rather than combo decks, by the majority of the community, this death knight didn't really add a whole lot of fun to the game either.
So, assuming that you want all classes to have a death knight once again, Blizzard will either need to add 6 new hero cards. OR they waste their time HARD nerfing the 6 missing hero cards so that each class has a death knight, just for the sake of having death knights. The former will just create another death knight meta, which we finally got rid of. The latter seems nothing more than a major waste of time.
I'm sorry, but there wasn't much to salvage from your post to begin with.
While I liked the DKs for a period of time, I am glad they are gone.
Now, what I don't understand is how some classes currently have a hero and others don't?! Just seems like bad game design. Either give each class a new hero or get rid of them.
Since as long as I can remember...did Warlock not have Jaraxxus, the OG hero card forever...? Like that is the first card that comes to my mind when I would think of a Balanced Hero card. Has a substantial upside, with a also just as substantial down side. The problem with the hero cards that Blizzard prints now is that they have NO downside at all, so there is no inherit balance in the card. it is he, here is this card with nothing but an upside...sooooo...play it? Where players need to build their decks to try and win before the hero cards are played or TRY to out-value these infinite value cards.
I am an OG control Paladin player back in the Whispers of the Old gods (I am not a life long HS player but I would argue fairly long ish in that respect) but that deck had value generating cards, but was NOT infinite and that was CRAZY strong with just the "N'Zoth package" of Tirion and 2 infested Tauren's, yes there is going to be a power creep of course. But it just is crazy how Tirion Fordring used to be the Pinnicle of an 8 drop, and now we have hero cards that cost 7 mana and give INFINITE value. I am fully open for discussion and please point out if I am wrong of course. Just an opinion of a Control player seeing how it is from his perspective.
I spoke about flavour in the OP and listed 3 DK cards that are not even close to OP when compared with what Big Priest does in wild. I like how everyone upvoted how they "were bad for the game" but not one person has yet to adress my point - that they were full of flavour for the game that was good and NOT ALL of them were OP. Just becasue some were and blizzard didn't balance or nerf them after, you throw the whole idea in the trash? K.
I don't give a rat's ass about flavor if it breaks the game, so let's proceed with the rest of your post: "but also the way the new hero power could really change the flow and strategy of a game."
You then proceed to name two hero cards who did absolutely nothing to change the flow and strategy of a game. Thrall and Garrosh' hero powers were pretty much negligible as their battlecries are the only reason you would play them in very niche decks.
Uther, on the other hand, provided yet another OTK strategy and nothing more. Judging from the amount of hatred towards guaranteed OTK decks, rather than combo decks, by the majority of the community, this death knight didn't really add a whole lot of fun to the game either.
So, assuming that you want all classes to have a death knight once again, Blizzard will either need to add 6 new hero cards. OR they waste their time HARD nerfing the 6 missing hero cards so that each class has a death knight, just for the sake of having death knights. The former will just create another death knight meta, which we finally got rid of. The latter seems nothing more than a major waste of time.
I'm sorry, but there wasn't much to salvage from your post to begin with.
So you pull apart the heroes I listed as being niche, and lacking impact with the new hero power and slam the rest for being too far the other way? Its you who needs to make up your mind. Where the fuck is the middle ground? Also, Uther saw plenty of use for healing/weapon, upgraded hero power was a nice perk, I never played him for OTKS, they just happened sometimes.
I am sorry you are sad, but they were very bad for the game.
Were the three I listed really that bad for the game? Some were yes, I accept that...
Uther's no-interaction win condition was bad for the game, even if the winrate wasn't super high. There are few things I hate more than uninteractive win conditions. If Uther was just a big weapon and better hero power minions, that'd be fine.
This was how I likied to play him anyway, more sustain in a control or midrnage deck. The OTK combo just felt super clunky compared with other classes combos.
I spoke about flavour in the OP and listed 3 DK cards that are not even close to OP when compared with what Big Priest does in wild. I like how everyone upvoted how they "were bad for the game" but not one person has yet to adress my point - that they were full of flavour for the game that was good and NOT ALL of them were OP. Just becasue some were and blizzard didn't balance or nerf them after, you throw the whole idea in the trash? K.
I don't give a rat's ass about flavor if it breaks the game, so let's proceed with the rest of your post: "but also the way the new hero power could really change the flow and strategy of a game."
You then proceed to name two hero cards who did absolutely nothing to change the flow and strategy of a game. Thrall and Garrosh' hero powers were pretty much negligible as their battlecries are the only reason you would play them in very niche decks.
Uther, on the other hand, provided yet another OTK strategy and nothing more. Judging from the amount of hatred towards guaranteed OTK decks, rather than combo decks, by the majority of the community, this death knight didn't really add a whole lot of fun to the game either.
So, assuming that you want all classes to have a death knight once again, Blizzard will either need to add 6 new hero cards. OR they waste their time HARD nerfing the 6 missing hero cards so that each class has a death knight, just for the sake of having death knights. The former will just create another death knight meta, which we finally got rid of. The latter seems nothing more than a major waste of time.
I'm sorry, but there wasn't much to salvage from your post to begin with.
So you pull apart the heroes I listed as being niche, and lacking impact with the new hero power and slam the rest for being too far the other way? Its you who needs to make up your mind. Where the fuck is the middle ground? Also, Uther saw plenty of use for healing/weapon, upgraded hero power was a nice perk, I never played him for OTKS, they just happened sometimes.
Half of your argument is that they open up new playstyles. Neither Thrall nor Garrosh (two of the three you listed) do such a thing.
There is no middle ground with these cards. That's the entire point of most people in this thread who you claim "aren't getting the point". It is the main reason people don't want them back.
the DK's were broken or useless, depending on the card sets available at the time and whether nerfs had happened. The ones that consistently overpowered their classes were mage, druid, and hunter. Priest was extremely strong but the nerfs helped keep is less toxic. Warrior was a great design and relatively underpowered compared to the other DKs. Rogue enabled frustrating decks like quest rogue to thrive until multiple nerfs thankfully killed that deck. Shaman was a meme outside of wild and even then, not great. Warlock was outrageously broken, enabling some of the most oppressive decks I've ever faced to exist (cubelock being the scariest one before the nerfs).
The DK's were fun to use and absolutely horrible to face. Rexxar in particular (my favorite) became the most unreasonably powerful DK in the game thanks to midrange hunter's raw aggro power and Rexxar's ability to out-value entire control decks.
Even the heroes he have now - Dr. Boom, Hagatha, and Zul'jin - are extremely powerful and can swing games in some incredibly frustrating ways, even with the limitations of RNG. Gere are some examples I've experienced recently:
Dr. Boom generating 4 extra Clockwork Goblins and losing to that, not to the deck itself. Ok, fine. It happens, especially in longer matches.
Zul'jin reloading my hand vs bomb warrior to capacity, burning the bomb that could have set up lethal for him. Ok... yeah ok that can happen I guess? Just highly unlikely.
Hagatha generating 72 healing vs big warrior, 50+ of which was pure RNG (like discovering Omega Mind off Blazing Invocation to combo with a randomly generated Hagatha's Scheme... 3x in that match). NOPE. That doesn't just happen in every match. That only happens because the hero cards can generate incredible value.
Yes, it's all down to RNG, but the point is that while hero cards are fun, they need somewhat restrained designs or they can lead to #feelsbadman moments for the player facing them when they'd otherwise have won. So yeah, the DK's - which had zero restraint on them and were very consistent - were awful for the game. You gotta relive your glory days in wild, because I don't think anyone really wants another two years of DK-levels of power.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
There's just zero comparison between them. Besides, Blizzard didn't touch any of the previous Hero Cards so why do people think that the current crop deserve or will even get smacked by the Nerf Hammer?
Hero cards are a great idea however, they were designed poorly. A handful were absolutely busted while others were just mediocre. I think they deserve a place in standard at all times but they need to be balanced. In addition, I absolutely hate the fact that they made Hagatha, Boom, and Zul'jin then stopped making them altogether. If the plan was to stop making them, then they shouldn't have made those three. While some classes have just 1 hero card, others have 2 and that just irks me to no end. Every class should get their turn in receiving a new one and the pattern of the Year of the Raven should have continued with RoS.
Control Warrior is good, not great, and that's largely because of Dr. Boom. Without him it wouldn't have enough.
Control Shaman is just decent. Hagatha is not doing anything OP. It gives late game value to decks that need it to have a chance.
Zuljin's not doing anything OP. OP spells like spellstone are what break him. Now that they're designing around him he should be fine.
The only arguably OP deck with a hero is Bomb Warrior, but it's because of the other Boom and the strength of shuffling bombs, not the hero card.
Having said that Dr. Boom is so strong that it's an auto include in any Warrior deck. We don't want auto includes like Rexxar.
Hero cards are really fun and interesting. Flavor wise they're amazing, and changing the hero power opens a lot of possibilities...as we know. I how we see more. I'd love to see them come three at a time until every class has one. BUT I really hope they will time down their power levels. Something like DK Thrall would be perfect. 5 mana double evolve your board and give you a hero power that allows you to evolve a minion, preferably after it's attacked into another minion--that's not bad!
Lower cost, lower impact on average would be better.
Am I the only one who finds it more fun to run Sideshow Spelleater than my own Death Knights? I once managed to complete the mage quest thanks to Hagatha the Witch's Bewitch.
But, eh... as a Wild player, I still mainly dislike both DKs and Odd/Even decks, even if they aren't the biggest tumors around.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health. - Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
I miss the quests and I miss the heroes and even the odd/even decks (not the more problematic ones though). The game lost a lot of flavor when the rotation hit. Or: when Ben Brode left.
While I liked the DKs for a period of time, I am glad they are gone.
Now, what I don't understand is how some classes currently have a hero and others don't?! Just seems like bad game design. Either give each class a new hero or get rid of them.
I agree with this 100%. They should have given the other 6 classes a new Hero card this exp, then give Shaman, Warrior, and Hunter a new one in the third exp this year. That way each class would have one through the next standard year. At that point they can either release one for each class and wait until those rotate out to release more, or just drop the idea completely with no more hero cards in standard.
Uther's no-interaction win condition was bad for the game, even if the winrate wasn't super high. There are few things I hate more than uninteractive win conditions. If Uther was just a big weapon and better hero power minions, that'd be fine.
They didn’t throw the concept away, and there’s nothing wrong with using design space for other cards rather than having a hero card every xpac to follow a trend
the death knight variants were overwhelmingly good over time when new pieces were added and old removed, same as dr. Boom who is now thriving in this early mech meta.
More will come, there’s literally nothing to complain about here. If you want “flavor” you can just use them in wild, that’s the whole point of the format.
Jaraxxus makes 4
Fatigue is an important part of HS, why not.
If you can smorc down a player in 5 turn it is ok for me to kill you by fatigue damage too.
I don't give a rat's ass about flavor if it breaks the game, so let's proceed with the rest of your post: "but also the way the new hero power could really change the flow and strategy of a game."
You then proceed to name two hero cards who did absolutely nothing to change the flow and strategy of a game. Thrall and Garrosh' hero powers were pretty much negligible as their battlecries are the only reason you would play them in very niche decks.
Uther, on the other hand, provided yet another OTK strategy and nothing more. Judging from the amount of hatred towards guaranteed OTK decks, rather than combo decks, by the majority of the community, this death knight didn't really add a whole lot of fun to the game either.
So, assuming that you want all classes to have a death knight once again, Blizzard will either need to add 6 new hero cards. OR they waste their time HARD nerfing the 6 missing hero cards so that each class has a death knight, just for the sake of having death knights. The former will just create another death knight meta, which we finally got rid of. The latter seems nothing more than a major waste of time.
I'm sorry, but there wasn't much to salvage from your post to begin with.
Since as long as I can remember...did Warlock not have Jaraxxus, the OG hero card forever...? Like that is the first card that comes to my mind when I would think of a Balanced Hero card. Has a substantial upside, with a also just as substantial down side. The problem with the hero cards that Blizzard prints now is that they have NO downside at all, so there is no inherit balance in the card. it is he, here is this card with nothing but an upside...sooooo...play it? Where players need to build their decks to try and win before the hero cards are played or TRY to out-value these infinite value cards.
I am an OG control Paladin player back in the Whispers of the Old gods (I am not a life long HS player but I would argue fairly long ish in that respect) but that deck had value generating cards, but was NOT infinite and that was CRAZY strong with just the "N'Zoth package" of Tirion and 2 infested Tauren's, yes there is going to be a power creep of course. But it just is crazy how Tirion Fordring used to be the Pinnicle of an 8 drop, and now we have hero cards that cost 7 mana and give INFINITE value. I am fully open for discussion and please point out if I am wrong of course. Just an opinion of a Control player seeing how it is from his perspective.
I am a hunter main and I am still glad that Rexxar is gone. Ridiculous card.
So you pull apart the heroes I listed as being niche, and lacking impact with the new hero power and slam the rest for being too far the other way? Its you who needs to make up your mind. Where the fuck is the middle ground? Also, Uther saw plenty of use for healing/weapon, upgraded hero power was a nice perk, I never played him for OTKS, they just happened sometimes.
This was how I likied to play him anyway, more sustain in a control or midrnage deck. The OTK combo just felt super clunky compared with other classes combos.
Half of your argument is that they open up new playstyles. Neither Thrall nor Garrosh (two of the three you listed) do such a thing.
There is no middle ground with these cards. That's the entire point of most people in this thread who you claim "aren't getting the point". It is the main reason people don't want them back.
the DK's were broken or useless, depending on the card sets available at the time and whether nerfs had happened. The ones that consistently overpowered their classes were mage, druid, and hunter. Priest was extremely strong but the nerfs helped keep is less toxic. Warrior was a great design and relatively underpowered compared to the other DKs. Rogue enabled frustrating decks like quest rogue to thrive until multiple nerfs thankfully killed that deck. Shaman was a meme outside of wild and even then, not great. Warlock was outrageously broken, enabling some of the most oppressive decks I've ever faced to exist (cubelock being the scariest one before the nerfs).
The DK's were fun to use and absolutely horrible to face. Rexxar in particular (my favorite) became the most unreasonably powerful DK in the game thanks to midrange hunter's raw aggro power and Rexxar's ability to out-value entire control decks.
Even the heroes he have now - Dr. Boom, Hagatha, and Zul'jin - are extremely powerful and can swing games in some incredibly frustrating ways, even with the limitations of RNG. Gere are some examples I've experienced recently:
Dr. Boom generating 4 extra Clockwork Goblins and losing to that, not to the deck itself. Ok, fine. It happens, especially in longer matches.
Zul'jin reloading my hand vs bomb warrior to capacity, burning the bomb that could have set up lethal for him. Ok... yeah ok that can happen I guess? Just highly unlikely.
Hagatha generating 72 healing vs big warrior, 50+ of which was pure RNG (like discovering Omega Mind off Blazing Invocation to combo with a randomly generated Hagatha's Scheme... 3x in that match). NOPE. That doesn't just happen in every match. That only happens because the hero cards can generate incredible value.
Yes, it's all down to RNG, but the point is that while hero cards are fun, they need somewhat restrained designs or they can lead to #feelsbadman moments for the player facing them when they'd otherwise have won. So yeah, the DK's - which had zero restraint on them and were very consistent - were awful for the game. You gotta relive your glory days in wild, because I don't think anyone really wants another two years of DK-levels of power.
Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
Same and same. It started so well, then that beast pool expanded and yikes. Auto-pick for every hunter deck.
Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
How do you miss them when you still have 3 in standard and ALL of them in wild? Rotation is a rotation dude, plus, they were bad for the game.
Y'all can't be comparing the current crop of Hero Cards to Frost Lich Jaina, Deathstalker Rexxar and Bloodreaver Gul'dan
There's just zero comparison between them. Besides, Blizzard didn't touch any of the previous Hero Cards so why do people think that the current crop deserve or will even get smacked by the Nerf Hammer?
The others barely saw play except for Malfurion the Pestilent and even he was fringe.
Thrall, Deathseer, Scourgelord Garrosh, Valeera the Hollow and Uther of the Ebon Blade hardly saw any play, with the possible exception of Valeera the Hollow.
Anyway. I'm rambling. I really hope someone gets my point?
Anyone?
4/3/19 RIP Keith Flint. 😔
Hero cards are a great idea however, they were designed poorly. A handful were absolutely busted while others were just mediocre. I think they deserve a place in standard at all times but they need to be balanced. In addition, I absolutely hate the fact that they made Hagatha, Boom, and Zul'jin then stopped making them altogether. If the plan was to stop making them, then they shouldn't have made those three. While some classes have just 1 hero card, others have 2 and that just irks me to no end. Every class should get their turn in receiving a new one and the pattern of the Year of the Raven should have continued with RoS.
The hero cards aren't OP right now.
Control Warrior is good, not great, and that's largely because of Dr. Boom. Without him it wouldn't have enough.
Control Shaman is just decent. Hagatha is not doing anything OP. It gives late game value to decks that need it to have a chance.
Zuljin's not doing anything OP. OP spells like spellstone are what break him. Now that they're designing around him he should be fine.
The only arguably OP deck with a hero is Bomb Warrior, but it's because of the other Boom and the strength of shuffling bombs, not the hero card.
Having said that Dr. Boom is so strong that it's an auto include in any Warrior deck. We don't want auto includes like Rexxar.
Hero cards are really fun and interesting. Flavor wise they're amazing, and changing the hero power opens a lot of possibilities...as we know. I how we see more. I'd love to see them come three at a time until every class has one. BUT I really hope they will time down their power levels. Something like DK Thrall would be perfect. 5 mana double evolve your board and give you a hero power that allows you to evolve a minion, preferably after it's attacked into another minion--that's not bad!
Lower cost, lower impact on average would be better.
Am I the only one who finds it more fun to run Sideshow Spelleater than my own Death Knights? I once managed to complete the mage quest thanks to Hagatha the Witch's Bewitch.
But, eh... as a Wild player, I still mainly dislike both DKs and Odd/Even decks, even if they aren't the biggest tumors around.
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health.
- Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
I miss the quests and I miss the heroes and even the odd/even decks (not the more problematic ones though). The game lost a lot of flavor when the rotation hit. Or: when Ben Brode left.
I agree with this 100%. They should have given the other 6 classes a new Hero card this exp, then give Shaman, Warrior, and Hunter a new one in the third exp this year. That way each class would have one through the next standard year. At that point they can either release one for each class and wait until those rotate out to release more, or just drop the idea completely with no more hero cards in standard.
I miss odd mage - but I understand why blizzard did what it did. I like the game where it’s at right now.