Now to start, this isn't a salt thread even if some people might perceive it that way. I'm just hoping to open discussion about a card I think is very powerful in general, but specifically Paladin.
Stonehill Defender was a great addition to Un'Goro, it sees play in all kinds of decks. But in specific I think Blizzard needs to look in to the cards it discovers for Paladins. When played in other class decks you are likely to get at least 1/3 good/decent choices but I find Paladins discover Tirion Fordring and Sunkeeper Tarim way too often. Those 2 single cards are so powerful that being able to have 2-3 of just one in a mid range deck is insane. Now obviously the only proof I could present would be that it happens in the majority of games vs Paladin where it gets played (I use a deck tracker so I know when it didn't come from their deck.
In my opinion I think this is something Blizzard needs to look in to because currently they are being discovered way too often. Agree / disagree? Opinions?
I run it in my hand buff / elemental Pala as well, and for me it actually seems to yield Sunkeeper Tarim or Wickerflame Burnbristle quite a lot. Good for me as I do not own both. Tirion Fordring seems to appear less often, maybe because I run him ???
For me, it is a strong and versatile card, but I never percieved it as OP.
The coding of the game presents the Discover mechanic with a higher chance for class-specific cards, unless stated otherwise (Hallucination, for example).
All you're pointing out is that Paladins have the best class-specific taunt minions in the game. No news there.
The coding of the game presents the Discover mechanic with a higher chance for class-specific cards, unless stated otherwise (Hallucination, for example).
All you're pointing out is that Paladins have the best class-specific taunt minions in the game. No news there.
You're right, they do have the best class specific taunt minions, obviously. That doesn't change that fact that they are discovered too often
I don't think Hunter needs it. Paladin probably needs this card. This is no different from Priest discovering Drakonid OP. Class cards are more likely to be discovered. It's the way it is and you can't change it without either changing the Discover mechanic (good luck) or nerfing Stonehill... Into... Silverback?
The discover mechanic can sometimes be problematic in Standard since the pool from where it pull out card is limited, on Wild on the other side there are so many cards that situation like that are not very frequent.
Actually I don't think is a real issue but I agree that sometimes can be frustrating to face a swarm of Tirion Fordring or Ice Block.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
For what profit is it to a man, if he gains the world and loses his own soul?
I think there is a double bonus in this case - first, class cards are 4x likely to be one of the 3 choices than neutral cards (as we all learned with Netherspite Historian -> Drakonid Operative). But if I'm not mistaken, there is also a bonus for legendaries to be more likely to be one of the choices than cards of other rarities. (You also see this with Netherspite - how many times is Ysera one of the choices.)
So Stonehill in Paladin gives you an incredible chance of at least one of Wickerflame, Sunkeeper, or Tirion as a choice - sometimes 2 of those. The only way to fix this is to change the bonus ratios of class and/or legendary cards. If they didn't do that for Netherspite Historian, they wont do it for Stonehill Defender.
Personally, I think it is fine the way it is. It's a good card in Warrior decks - and a great card in Paladin decks. But I'm glad that Paladin's exile from the Mysterious Challenger days is finally over.
Im okay with that but if we're looking at power level of this card in paladin lets whine about other fair cards:
primordial glyph in mage. This is just pure bullshit. You almost always get what you need. Around HOW MANY POLYMORPHS and meteors I HAVE TO PLAY AROUND
swashburglar. How am I supposed to play around that?!?! My opponent always get sth good. THIS is insane!
priests always discover best cards from drakonid operative!! How come this card is so good?
rogue quest?!?! How am i supposed to win with 1 mana 5/5 on turn 5?!?! WITH CHARGE?!
ice block? Are you fucking kidding me? What a great tactic. Become immune and spend 2 consecutive turns pyroblasting your opponents face. GJ blizzard.
This game aint fair man and blizzard dont give a shit about it. But without this card paladin wouldnt have existed in current meta. Why? Because paladin win condition is based around having board and stgrong minions. If you managed to neutralize tirion, clean his board atleast twice (after his very good opening hand and after tarim) - which is doable in most of the cases- then you would have won if not for this card. There are too many efficient board clears and removals for paladin to be viable without such a good value card.
Its not like paladin is the best class atm. Other classes have their unfairness aswell.
I'm not a strong advocate of discussing cards in a vacuum. Some people are but I never understood the reason. Is it because the amount of variance strong/busted cards bring to the table (either you draw them or you don't)? In that case I'd argue that with only 30 card decks that you are bound to draw into those cards in most games thus canceling out the variance somewhat.
If the deck(s) that use the card aren't busted, I see no problem and I don't believe that Paladin is that. I get that it's frustrating to see a certain card being played and then know that you're probably going to lose but every deck has a power turn.
The only reason I'm open to cards in a vacuum discussion is if they are popular and are non-interactive (Rogue quest, Ice Block). That's not so much a power level issue as it's a bad playing experience.
it's not an issue, as people above said Discover has higher chances to discover class cards and with the drastically reduced/limited Pool product of a recent rotation we're bound to see more of the same cards per game, give the game one or two expansions and taunt minions wil be enough to stabilize the taunt card Pool again making discovering Paladin legendaries less frequent.
For anyone who is interested, HSReplays keeps a data set for every card in the game - just type the name of the card in the search box. When Stonehill Defender discovers a Paladin class minion, the WR when played is 56%-59%. When it doesn't, the WR is 48%. It's a Silverback Patriarch, and it needs to find a good taunt in order to recoup the lost tempo of playing an otherwise bad minion.
Now to start, this isn't a salt thread even if some people might perceive it that way. I'm just hoping to open discussion about a card I think is very powerful in general, but specifically Paladin.
Stonehill Defender was a great addition to Un'Goro, it sees play in all kinds of decks. But in specific I think Blizzard needs to look in to the cards it discovers for Paladins. When played in other class decks you are likely to get at least 1/3 good/decent choices but I find Paladins discover Tirion Fordring and Sunkeeper Tarim way too often. Those 2 single cards are so powerful that being able to have 2-3 of just one in a mid range deck is insane. Now obviously the only proof I could present would be that it happens in the majority of games vs Paladin where it gets played (I use a deck tracker so I know when it didn't come from their deck.
In my opinion I think this is something Blizzard needs to look in to because currently they are being discovered way too often. Agree / disagree? Opinions?
Let Paladin be good. It was dumpster, it is our time to shine!
I run it in my hand buff / elemental Pala as well, and for me it actually seems to yield Sunkeeper Tarim or Wickerflame Burnbristle quite a lot. Good for me as I do not own both. Tirion Fordring seems to appear less often, maybe because I run him ???
For me, it is a strong and versatile card, but I never percieved it as OP.
The coding of the game presents the Discover mechanic with a higher chance for class-specific cards, unless stated otherwise (Hallucination, for example).
All you're pointing out is that Paladins have the best class-specific taunt minions in the game. No news there.
I think stonehill is an auto include in about every paladin decck
I misplay. A lot.
I don't like whiners man .
It's because of people like this Hunter players lost the best card ever printed Call of the wild .
I don't think Hunter needs it. Paladin probably needs this card. This is no different from Priest discovering Drakonid OP. Class cards are more likely to be discovered. It's the way it is and you can't change it without either changing the Discover mechanic (good luck) or nerfing Stonehill... Into... Silverback?
The discover mechanic can sometimes be problematic in Standard since the pool from where it pull out card is limited, on Wild on the other side there are so many cards that situation like that are not very frequent.
Actually I don't think is a real issue but I agree that sometimes can be frustrating to face a swarm of Tirion Fordring or Ice Block.
For what profit is it to a man, if he gains the world and loses his own soul?
I think there is a double bonus in this case - first, class cards are 4x likely to be one of the 3 choices than neutral cards (as we all learned with Netherspite Historian -> Drakonid Operative). But if I'm not mistaken, there is also a bonus for legendaries to be more likely to be one of the choices than cards of other rarities. (You also see this with Netherspite - how many times is Ysera one of the choices.)
So Stonehill in Paladin gives you an incredible chance of at least one of Wickerflame, Sunkeeper, or Tirion as a choice - sometimes 2 of those. The only way to fix this is to change the bonus ratios of class and/or legendary cards. If they didn't do that for Netherspite Historian, they wont do it for Stonehill Defender.
Personally, I think it is fine the way it is. It's a good card in Warrior decks - and a great card in Paladin decks. But I'm glad that Paladin's exile from the Mysterious Challenger days is finally over.
Im okay with that but if we're looking at power level of this card in paladin lets whine about other fair cards:
This game aint fair man and blizzard dont give a shit about it. But without this card paladin wouldnt have existed in current meta. Why? Because paladin win condition is based around having board and stgrong minions. If you managed to neutralize tirion, clean his board atleast twice (after his very good opening hand and after tarim) - which is doable in most of the cases- then you would have won if not for this card. There are too many efficient board clears and removals for paladin to be viable without such a good value card.
Its not like paladin is the best class atm. Other classes have their unfairness aswell.
Of course it's busted, it shouldn't be able to discover legendaries anyway.
I'm not a strong advocate of discussing cards in a vacuum. Some people are but I never understood the reason. Is it because the amount of variance strong/busted cards bring to the table (either you draw them or you don't)? In that case I'd argue that with only 30 card decks that you are bound to draw into those cards in most games thus canceling out the variance somewhat.
If the deck(s) that use the card aren't busted, I see no problem and I don't believe that Paladin is that. I get that it's frustrating to see a certain card being played and then know that you're probably going to lose but every deck has a power turn.
The only reason I'm open to cards in a vacuum discussion is if they are popular and are non-interactive (Rogue quest, Ice Block). That's not so much a power level issue as it's a bad playing experience.
it's not an issue, as people above said Discover has higher chances to discover class cards and with the drastically reduced/limited Pool product of a recent rotation we're bound to see more of the same cards per game, give the game one or two expansions and taunt minions wil be enough to stabilize the taunt card Pool again making discovering Paladin legendaries less frequent.
For anyone who is interested, HSReplays keeps a data set for every card in the game - just type the name of the card in the search box. When Stonehill Defender discovers a Paladin class minion, the WR when played is 56%-59%. When it doesn't, the WR is 48%. It's a Silverback Patriarch, and it needs to find a good taunt in order to recoup the lost tempo of playing an otherwise bad minion.
Paladin would have been t3 or worse without this card.
My favorite card to discover with Stonehill Defender is Stonehill Defender.
Anger is the punishment we give ourselves for someone else's mistake.
As long as Patches the Pirate is a thing, please no complaints about Stonehill Defender.
Standard Legend - July '16 (Rank 56), June '17, Dec. '18, Apr. '19
Wild Legend - Mar. '18 (Rank 30), Apr. '18, Aug. '19
Twelve Arena Wins - Shaman, Warlock, Mage x2, Rogue, Priest (12-0), Druid, Hallow's End x2, Hunter, Taverns of Time x3 (Pa,D,WL), Paladin
Still pales in comparison to Jade Idol, it's (quite literally) infinitely less good XD