Looking at the Un'Goro expansion, I can see two very played rogue decks - miracle/garden rogue and quest rogue.
Back when pirates ruled over gadgetzan, there was a deck, that imo was very good designed, a deck, that i really loved to play against even though i didn't always won at the end. And this was the Water rogue. Now seeing a popular deck build here, I understand that the deck lost important cards - like Argent Horserider, Azure Drake and Silent Knight, but can't they be replaced, in order for the deck to be viable again? I know, that finding a replacement for the drake isn't that easy, considering the fact, that it was way too utilitarian (spell damage, card draw, a mediocre minion and a dragon for The Curator). But it's a shame that we don't see it at all.
Someone posted their suggestion about the un'goro version here.
Dunno, what do you think? Will there be a water rogue in the Un'goro expansion? What kind of cards does it need to make the cut?
It's not that the deck is bad, it's just that generally speaking, New Miracle/Plant and Quest are way better. The loss of cards like azure drake, silent knight is really tough on the water version and believe me I was a big fan. So, it;s not about the deck being bad, it's more about the other decks being way better. The stealth synergies are sort of messed up now as well and early game is weaker. However, it might come back at some point.
Why play aggro rogue when you can play quest rogue. BTW, try finja package in quest rogue, it's not that bad.
i would, if i had the cards :D
about your first point - yeah, maybe you are right, maybe QR does give more value but the two decks are different from each other, i don't see why the first one should be replaced by QR
It's not that the deck is bad, it's just that generally speaking, New Miracle/Plant and Quest are way better. The loss of cards like azure drake, silent knight is really tough on the water version and believe me I was a big fan. So, it;s not about the deck being bad, it's more about the other decks being way better. The stealth synergies are sort of messed up now as well and early game is weaker. However, it might come back at some point.
about that i find it really pity, that because it's not as strong as the other ones, it doesn't see any play because this was one of the aggro decks for me, that i loved to play against, it wasn't oppressive as PW back then
but yeah, you made a point there - about the stealth minions and the loss of azure drake
I think fashion is an important variable in meta shaping.
The only evergreen deck archetypes are combo ones, because as long as they are effective, they're always fun to play. And to a minor extent Face decks, because of how cheap and effective they are.
Water Rogue is cool and all, but not as bonkers as QR or Miracle.
Actually, i don't think Water Rogue has ever been really that popular across the meta.
It is seeing play, I just think people are calling it "Tempo Rogue" now (...which is a stupid deck name because every deck has tempo plays but whatever...)
Generally, Quest Rogue is better, but Tempo/Water/Aggro Rogue is still a strong Pirate Warrior counter. I think it's just a metagame thing right now. Pirate isn't as dominant as it was on ladder in MSOG. But Tempo Rogue could surely fit in a tournament line up.
I haven't yet crafted Patches but it would be good as well. Opened Finja from a pack, just crafted VanCleef the other day. VanCleef doesn't get that big with this deck unless you get a ton of cheap stuff from Swashburglar/Mimic Pod into 2x backstab, so is just a tempo play rather than a massive threat.
To me losing silent knight is a big deal . turn 3 knight into shadow sensei was often game winning in matchups were you are fighting for board control .
Getting a trade and ending the turn with two 4/4 was pretty huge .
Quest rogue and miracle plant is just better now .
It's not that the deck is bad, it's just that generally speaking, New Miracle/Plant and Quest are way better. The loss of cards like azure drake, silent knight is really tough on the water version and believe me I was a big fan. So, it;s not about the deck being bad, it's more about the other decks being way better. The stealth synergies are sort of messed up now as well and early game is weaker. However, it might come back at some point.
about that i find it really pity, that because it's not as strong as the other ones, it doesn't see any play because this was one of the aggro decks for me, that i loved to play against, it wasn't oppressive as PW back then
but yeah, you made a point there - about the stealth minions and the loss of azure drake
Yep, it's kind of sad but that is how most people operate in regards to climbing and I can't really judge them.
To me losing silent knight is a big deal . turn 3 knight into shadow sensei was often game winning in matchups were you are fighting for board control .
Getting a trade and ending the turn with two 4/4 was pretty huge .
Quest rogue and miracle plant is just better now .
but there is still a 3 drop stealth minion Giant Wasp - yeah, it doesn't have a divine shield, but still + that 4/2 Jungle Panther + the legendary Shaku, the Collector is still there
but i understand what you mean, we need early stealth minions, that will synergize with sensei and that will survive another trade and yeah, hard for me to admit it, but they are :
Quest rogue and miracle plant is just better now .
I think the real reason is that water rogue isn't good against the common decks in the current meta.
Water rogue did well against aggro decks (by keeping up with their tempo, swinging the board with finja, and outvaluing them). It could also work well against mid-shaman and dragon priest, because it had the ability to win early enough. And against the control decks from MSoG (Reno and especially jade druid) - it was fast enough and effective enough.
But now? It's not good against quest rogue, won't kill taunt warrior fast enough, bad against freeze mage and so on...
It's just doesn't fit the meta (same reason jade druid disappear)
I knew that losing this powerful play the deck had was enough for me to play another type of rogue . That plus like ameateye said , the meta just isn't favorable for such a type of deck .
To be fair however the miracle plant rogue is one if not the most fun rogue deck I ever played .
With the early drops you have you feel like you don't completely depend on the big auctioneer turn .
If you are a rogue fan I recommend it .
I do however miss those big Finja turn , could win you a game on the spot . Sad to not be using that :(
The old stealth / finja rogue deck was fun but never top tier. It could win most matchups at the time but it still relied on good draws to win the bad matchups such as Reno decks. The cards it lost were key to the early game and it always played as a midrange deck that could (sometimes) rush like an aggro deck given the right draws. In this meta that is the weakest place to be. Early game is key against decks like freeze mage and aggro decks. Midrange is dominated by combos like inner fire priest and Hunter. Late game quest warrior or mage will always out value you.
Quest rogue works because it snowballs around turn 4-5 consistently. Most decks can do this too but only with perfect draws and even then tend not to have as much steam left at that point compared to quest rogue. The only decks that do well against such an early consistent deck are aggro decks.
Miracle has always been about cheating value by sacrificing late game (fatigue is a big weakness) for mid game dominance. The new tools like the flowers have made it more consistent and less reliant on combos like Leroy + cold blood or Mally which is why it has become popular again but it does have weaknesses to decks that can out value their turns or have enough answers to last into the late game.
I have a pretty high winrate against all decks so far. While I have recently started recording my games for the statistics, I'm still doing superb against this meta. And with this deck, quest rogue is not cancerous at the least. The only decks that require a bit more thought to play against are hunter, pally, and druid. those are the toughies. But I still find shadow sensei synergy with finja and shaku! While the loss of silent knight hurts, I find having just one in my deck is still viable. Ill try to come out with the statistics later! Here's what I got so far~
Its not much... yet. So, I'll update you when I can. :)
(viewer discretion: I have been using this deck far before I've recorded these games^ and my highest is not 15, it is rank 4 and I didn't have enough time to get any higher unfortunately!)
Still having a blast with this one, hope you can find the same joy that I do
Looking at the Un'Goro expansion, I can see two very played rogue decks - miracle/garden rogue and quest rogue.
Back when pirates ruled over gadgetzan, there was a deck, that imo was very good designed, a deck, that i really loved to play against even though i didn't always won at the end. And this was the Water rogue. Now seeing a popular deck build here, I understand that the deck lost important cards - like Argent Horserider, Azure Drake and Silent Knight, but can't they be replaced, in order for the deck to be viable again? I know, that finding a replacement for the drake isn't that easy, considering the fact, that it was way too utilitarian (spell damage, card draw, a mediocre minion and a dragon for The Curator). But it's a shame that we don't see it at all.
Someone posted their suggestion about the un'goro version here.
Dunno, what do you think? Will there be a water rogue in the Un'goro expansion? What kind of cards does it need to make the cut?
Why play aggro rogue when you can play quest rogue. BTW, try finja package in quest rogue, it's not that bad.
Hey,
It's not that the deck is bad, it's just that generally speaking, New Miracle/Plant and Quest are way better. The loss of cards like azure drake, silent knight is really tough on the water version and believe me I was a big fan. So, it;s not about the deck being bad, it's more about the other decks being way better. The stealth synergies are sort of messed up now as well and early game is weaker. However, it might come back at some point.
but the two decks are different from each other, i don't see why the first one should be replaced by QR
i find it really pity, that because it's not as strong as the other ones, it doesn't see any play
because this was one of the aggro decks for me, that i loved to play against, it wasn't oppressive as PW back then
I think fashion is an important variable in meta shaping.
The only evergreen deck archetypes are combo ones, because as long as they are effective, they're always fun to play. And to a minor extent Face decks, because of how cheap and effective they are.
Water Rogue is cool and all, but not as bonkers as QR or Miracle.
Actually, i don't think Water Rogue has ever been really that popular across the meta.
It is seeing play, I just think people are calling it "Tempo Rogue" now (...which is a stupid deck name because every deck has tempo plays but whatever...)
Generally, Quest Rogue is better, but Tempo/Water/Aggro Rogue is still a strong Pirate Warrior counter. I think it's just a metagame thing right now. Pirate isn't as dominant as it was on ladder in MSOG. But Tempo Rogue could surely fit in a tournament line up.
My current rogue deck
I haven't yet crafted Patches but it would be good as well. Opened Finja from a pack, just crafted VanCleef the other day. VanCleef doesn't get that big with this deck unless you get a ton of cheap stuff from Swashburglar/Mimic Pod into 2x backstab, so is just a tempo play rather than a massive threat.
To me losing silent knight is a big deal . turn 3 knight into shadow sensei was often game winning in matchups were you are fighting for board control .
Getting a trade and ending the turn with two 4/4 was pretty huge .
Quest rogue and miracle plant is just better now .
Giant Wasp - yeah, it doesn't have a divine shield, but still
+ that 4/2 Jungle Panther
+ the legendary Shaku, the Collector is still there
but i understand what you mean, we need early stealth minions, that will synergize with sensei and that will survive another trade
and yeah, hard for me to admit it, but they are :
I think the real reason is that water rogue isn't good against the common decks in the current meta.
Water rogue did well against aggro decks (by keeping up with their tempo, swinging the board with finja, and outvaluing them). It could also work well against mid-shaman and dragon priest, because it had the ability to win early enough. And against the control decks from MSoG (Reno and especially jade druid) - it was fast enough and effective enough.
But now? It's not good against quest rogue, won't kill taunt warrior fast enough, bad against freeze mage and so on...
It's just doesn't fit the meta (same reason jade druid disappear)
I knew that losing this powerful play the deck had was enough for me to play another type of rogue . That plus like ameateye said , the meta just isn't favorable for such a type of deck .
To be fair however the miracle plant rogue is one if not the most fun rogue deck I ever played .
With the early drops you have you feel like you don't completely depend on the big auctioneer turn .
If you are a rogue fan I recommend it .
I do however miss those big Finja turn , could win you a game on the spot . Sad to not be using that :(
As mentioned above, losing Silent Knight hurts water rogue too much, I tried a version with wasp but divine shield is just way better in this deck.
Because Rogue got value cards rather than tempo cards this set.
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My mandibles which are capable of pressing down and tearing, my talons which are known to intercept and hold.
Why is it called water rogue?
because it has the "water" package, finja (murlocs are related to fish (or frogs?)), and pirates (also related to water)
The old stealth / finja rogue deck was fun but never top tier. It could win most matchups at the time but it still relied on good draws to win the bad matchups such as Reno decks. The cards it lost were key to the early game and it always played as a midrange deck that could (sometimes) rush like an aggro deck given the right draws. In this meta that is the weakest place to be. Early game is key against decks like freeze mage and aggro decks. Midrange is dominated by combos like inner fire priest and Hunter. Late game quest warrior or mage will always out value you.
Quest rogue works because it snowballs around turn 4-5 consistently. Most decks can do this too but only with perfect draws and even then tend not to have as much steam left at that point compared to quest rogue. The only decks that do well against such an early consistent deck are aggro decks.
Miracle has always been about cheating value by sacrificing late game (fatigue is a big weakness) for mid game dominance. The new tools like the flowers have made it more consistent and less reliant on combos like Leroy + cold blood or Mally which is why it has become popular again but it does have weaknesses to decks that can out value their turns or have enough answers to last into the late game.
I'm still running water rogue and having great success!
You can check out my deck here
I have a pretty high winrate against all decks so far. While I have recently started recording my games for the statistics, I'm still doing superb against this meta. And with this deck, quest rogue is not cancerous at the least. The only decks that require a bit more thought to play against are hunter, pally, and druid. those are the toughies. But I still find shadow sensei synergy with finja and shaku! While the loss of silent knight hurts, I find having just one in my deck is still viable. Ill try to come out with the statistics later! Here's what I got so far~
Its not much... yet. So, I'll update you when I can. :)
(viewer discretion: I have been using this deck far before I've recorded these games^ and my highest is not 15, it is rank 4 and I didn't have enough time to get any higher unfortunately!)
Still having a blast with this one, hope you can find the same joy that I do