The rotation draws ever nearer, and with it, we can ponder (read: celebrate) on some of the cards that we will be fond to see the back of. Two such cards (for me) will be Radiant Elemental and Lyra the Sunshard.
These two cards (especially when paired together) have been the cause (and enabler) of most of the insane priest decks of the last year or two. In particular, the removal of the spell cost reduction from the Radiant Elemental will surely hit combo priest decks right in the soft and squishies.
Perhaps it will be good to see the end of them? Or maybe you will be sad to see them go?
But in particular, do you think that these mega-OTK combo priest decks will ultimately disappear now that the ability to combo off cards like Prophet Velen and Malygos are gone? Do you think they should? Are they healthy to the game overall? Some of you may recall Blizzards (comical ) claim that they did not like the idea of one turn kill decks and wanted to look at removing them. Perhaps the rotation was a soft way to do this.
On a final note, is it time that Malygos was retired to the Hall of Fame? I know some people hate these sort of questions, but they are valid and worth asking, if only for the discussion. Most of the big OTK burn decks revolve around the use and misuse of Malygos. This shows how integral this card is to a lot of decks - and additionally just how powerful it is.
Losing Radiant Elemental will be a big hit to Priest. But who knows what fresh hell awaits in April.
Blizzard has had a poor track record recently of introducing "new" cards that basically copy old effects due to a lack of imagination. Even if Priest loses the mana-reduction powers this card allows for a few months, I bet something replaces it later next year.
The main problem isn't Maly, it's cards that produce 1/1 copies of it. The 1/1 copy cards are a stupid idea, but the problem for Team 5 is that once you guzzle down the stupid juice, there is no going back.
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Losing Radiant Elemental will be a bit hit to Priest. But who knows what fresh hell awaits in April.
Blizzard has had a poor track record recently of introducing "new" cards that basically copy old effects due to a lack of imagination. Even if Priest loses the mana-reduction powers this card allows for a few months, I bet something replaces it later next year.
Certainly possible - though the problem there is that adding another mechanic to redue spell cost for priest will make Wild considerably worse. I know they may not care so much about wild on the whole, but they may not want to do this. And maybe they felt that there was no way to feasibly nerf the card in a good way, so letting it simply rotate out might have been there favourite option
The main problem isn't Maly, it's cards that produce 1/1 copies of it. The 1/1 copy cards are a stupid idea, but the problem for Team 5 is that once you guzzle down the stupid juice, there is no going back.
That's certainly true for Malygos Rogue, but less so for other decks like Priest and Druid, I think. With every (ab)use of Malygos, it is always the central card in every combo. Which definitely makes it the contender for consideration. That said, however, going back to thread point, the disappearance of Radiant Elemental will certainly make it harder to pull off OTKs (though not impossible) using Malygos with priest decks, since they can't spam direct damage spells for eternity at your face. (Slight exaggeration for dramatic effect* )
I love priest, and I'll be sad to see those cards go, but priest is most fun as a mid-range/control deck and not a combo deck, so it's not a huge deal.
Malygos can definitely limit design space, so it might be time to address it. The problem is, as one of the dragon flight alongside deathwing and ysera and whatnot, they can't just HoF him. He's part of an all-classic set. So either they change his design, or they HoF him and replace him with a different malygos
Yep - the best priest deck that ever was (Not necessarily the strongest) was the original Dragon Priest. With the Operatives, etc. That deck was definitely the most fun deck to play.
In regards to your second paragraph - to me, that's only really a flavour thing, and flavour shouldn't outweigh design in my opinion. If need be, they could move all the dragons to HoF - I dont think that's necessary myself, but it wouldn't be a huge loss of any kind.
I play the control version which can do a fair whack of damage, but cannot wipe you out in one turn. The velen / maly res thing feels a little cheap, but I suppose considering the ridiculous armour gain of some classes, maybe it's ok. It feels very similar to rogue maly, with vanish standing in for scream.
You're thinking of Radiant Elemental only as the issue?
They are also losing Shadow Visions, their DK, Guilded Gargoyle, Psychic Scream, and Spirit Lash.
The main reason priest burst decks even work is because they don't have to rely on ONE SPECIFIC combo to pull it off. They can draw more burst with Visions, score some crazy blows with Lyra, and their DK lets them extend their reach.
Without that, the deck literally only has the OTK itself. And they can't even pull coins or discount their spells to make THAT work.
Even if Maly isn't HoFed, and I'm pretty sure it will be, the entire archetype is dead.
As for blizzard and OTK, Blizzard has been shown to be willing to change their design philosophy, so trying to lock them down permanently to old sayings really isn't going to work long term. As far as THAT specific line, they have kept away from the old styled combo decks that kill you by turn 6, like Miracle Rogue. Meanwhile, it's pretty darn clear that they are experimenting with Combo decks again by making them late game if not pure fatigue, like Mechathun and Hakkar.
And honestly I think they did a good job of it. YES, they feel insane now but we're at teh end of the cycle. The decks should be 100% refined and at max power at this point, similar to how Reno decks became fully stable at the time of Mean Streets. They do need some tweaking, mostly in them needing to be vulnerable to aggro, as our combo decks seem to be more 'anti-control greed' rather than 'fast combo' like the old days. We also need a stronger midrange that can deal with them.
(no, they should still rock fatigue. You should be afraid of something if you decide to not have a win condition of SOME type, similar to what happens if you don't have a minion above 4 mana on the aggro side)
But yes, mind blast priest is dead, assuming the next expansion doesn't save it somehow, and typically decks that have been around a while don't survive rotation (decks made THIS expansion though will be around, so if you hate Paladin OTK..well, sorry)
I think it's kind of interesting how OTK Paladin was a literally terrible deck for every expansion until it finally got a small chance to shine in this one. I don't hate the deck - nor do I particularly like it - it's a bit of a 1-trick-pony show for me. But I like that it has at least had a good go before the DK leaves. I kind of wish some of the other Quests and DKs had been given a better chance (like Quest Hunter and Quest Shaman, etc).
I think it's kind of interesting how OTK Paladin was a literally terrible deck for every expansion until it finally got a small chance to shine in this one. I don't hate the deck - nor do I particularly like it - it's a bit of a 1-trick-pony show for me. But I like that it has at least had a good go before the DK leaves. I kind of wish some of the other Quests and DKs had been given a better chance (like Quest Hunter and Quest Shaman, etc).
That, I feel, is how a deck should 'grow' throughout it's time here. New deck concepts should be meme/tier-4 status when it comes in, then slowly grow over time. Then given the final piece to 'bloom' on the expansion before it's key cards go away.
Honestly, the big issue with just about all of the decks since the Witchwood nerf, including all of those druid ones, is how #@*()$#*) long they survived. We loved the mess out of them between the Nerf and Boomsday. If that was, instead, between Rumble and Rotation then we would only JUST start getting bored of Kingsbanes and Druids when it was time for rotation. That's also why I feel the Priest and Hunter decks are overall ok: they bloomed in Rumble, and will have time to shine before they leave. And they will leave, HARD next expansion.
Paladin OTK will soften but wont' go away, because what made it work was the combination of the DK combo and the Tiger Combo. The DK combo will leave but the Tiger combo will stay. But that combo alone isn't enough to carry the deck fully. So it'll have to heavily adapt and perhaps accept, at best, tier 2-3 status.
As far as Quest hunter/shaman, I think the concept of Quest hunter, throwing masses of small fries at you, will have a shot, similar to how Taunt Warrior was first made in TgT and took all the way to Un'Goro to bloom.
Murloc Shaman just makes no sense and probably needed to go :P. Some ideas just aren't meant to pan out.
Shadow visions is a much bigger deal. Lyra isn't a big deal at all, the more OTK focused version of res priest doesn't even run Lyra.
Mind blast priest could still exist but it would have to be played quite differently. No res cards so you would need the spirit or something to get a one mana copy, then draw that with a tutor - vivid nightmares - double mind blast. something like that but with no shadow visions it would probably be too hard to assemble the combo pieces. probably a heavy cycle deck,not likely to actually be good or exist without some support.
I really like resurrect priest, both versions of the deck. I'll be sad to see them go.
I don't think Malygos should be hall of famed. It's a fine card. I don't think team 5 has anything against OTK decks, they just printed Mechathun.
holy wrath paladin will probably be the best combo deck in the game honestly since so many of the others will die (res priest, mechathun lock, topsy priest, etc). It losses the dual win condition of the horseman but HW is the bread and butter combo and almost every other card in that deck will still be in standard, and if it is able to be a competitive deck before rotation, it will probably be stupidly strong after. I won't be surprised if Shirvallah bouncing is nerfed in some way or another. It's one of the most insane swings in the game once you get it's cost to 0 and start bouncing it. Of all the good decks out there right now it stands out as being one of the least affected by rotation. Losing Zola isn't great but you could replace that with a second baleful banker that you could just play for value and not for the combo.
Mind Blast will always have a spot in Tavern Brawl.
What Blizzard needs to move away in priest is Topsy Turvy/Inner Fire crap. It's budget priest win condition, and I should know as I was a wild player with only Naxx and some basic cards two years ago trying to get back into the game. With Skulking Geist moving out, I think the "waah, priest beat me, Blizz plz nerf" crowd will focus on those two cards. Which sucks because looking at what's left for priest ain't pretty.
Thief Priest has made a small comeback since disappearing in Un'Goro, but it can't be a win condition if the meta is full of hyper aggro decks or cards that synergize with a class (garbage buffing like aggro paladin/evolve shamans or weapons). It was a hell of a lot of fun, though.
I really want a priest deck that makes Shadowform legit. DK Anduin came close, but the mechanic still didn't feel like the right answer.
Radiant is a important card but Shadow Visions is the card that enabled so many powerful spell based Priest decks over the last two years. Mindblast was joke before Shadow Visions, it will go back to being a joke after it rotates out.
Mana reduction is everything for a lot of different types of OTK decks that have been around. Unless a copycat card is introduced into the game via uninspired fashion then I suspect OTK priest will be DOA in standard.
Now combo priest on the other hand. That could still be a thing. As long as you can burn large chunks of the opponent's face away there will be a way.
If it doesn't die cause of the radiant loss it will for sure die cause of losing resurrect effects, the deck is not consistent enough to make sure you don't draw velen and malygos and if you do you get rekt, with no way to bring minions back then that deck is gonna see no play, unless some more revive effects get printed. We're losing every single card that allows you to go for the otk (Radiants, visions and gargoyles) but even if we got some mana reduction stuff it'll still be a bad deck cause you can't revive your stuff so it'll just be way too inconsistent.
I don't think Malygos should be hall of famed. It's a fine card. I don't think team 5 has anything against OTK decks, they just printed Mechathun.
HOF isn't for trouble cards. Trouble cards get nerfed. They don't dump trouble to Wild. Wild isn't a dumping ground of bad cards.
The concept behind HoF is that deck archetypes aren't supposed to last more than 2 years in Standard. Afterwards, they are supposed to critically change themselves or fall away completely.
This was the real crime behind decks like freeze mage. The deck itself was not a problem. If ice block was a Rumble card it would be a fine addition to the game with us experimenting with this 'freeze mage' thing. However, after 2 years, that deck would go away from standard
Freeze mage never left. It would be less useful in certain metas, but every expansion there was the question of "will this revive freeze mage?" And if it does, if came back with basically the same game style: stall with whatever removal it can gather, hunt cards, find the win condition. We've been overall playing that same deck for 4 years until ice block rotated. That is the problem.
If a card or deck is a problem, it's nerfed. If it's NOT a problem but survives past 2 years, it's HoFed.
That's the issue with Malygos. He spawns the same deck archetype no matter what class or what sets we have. We've been Malygos bursting for 5 years now. He's not a bad card. But he's an old card. And Standard is NOT the place for old things. That's what Wild is for.
So that's why people are saying Malygos is primed for the HoF. He's served his time. It's time we move on to other things, like Mechathun or Hakkar or..something else.
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The rotation draws ever nearer, and with it, we can ponder (read: celebrate) on some of the cards that we will be fond to see the back of.
Two such cards (for me) will be Radiant Elemental and Lyra the Sunshard.
These two cards (especially when paired together) have been the cause (and enabler) of most of the insane priest decks of the last year or two. In particular, the removal of the spell cost reduction from the Radiant Elemental will surely hit combo priest decks right in the soft and squishies.
Perhaps it will be good to see the end of them?
Or maybe you will be sad to see them go?
But in particular, do you think that these mega-OTK combo priest decks will ultimately disappear now that the ability to combo off cards like Prophet Velen and Malygos are gone? Do you think they should? Are they healthy to the game overall?
Some of you may recall Blizzards (comical ) claim that they did not like the idea of one turn kill decks and wanted to look at removing them. Perhaps the rotation was a soft way to do this.
On a final note, is it time that Malygos was retired to the Hall of Fame? I know some people hate these sort of questions, but they are valid and worth asking, if only for the discussion. Most of the big OTK burn decks revolve around the use and misuse of Malygos. This shows how integral this card is to a lot of decks - and additionally just how powerful it is.
Losing Radiant Elemental will be a big hit to Priest. But who knows what fresh hell awaits in April.
Blizzard has had a poor track record recently of introducing "new" cards that basically copy old effects due to a lack of imagination. Even if Priest loses the mana-reduction powers this card allows for a few months, I bet something replaces it later next year.
The main problem isn't Maly, it's cards that produce 1/1 copies of it. The 1/1 copy cards are a stupid idea, but the problem for Team 5 is that once you guzzle down the stupid juice, there is no going back.
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
Certainly possible - though the problem there is that adding another mechanic to redue spell cost for priest will make Wild considerably worse. I know they may not care so much about wild on the whole, but they may not want to do this.
And maybe they felt that there was no way to feasibly nerf the card in a good way, so letting it simply rotate out might have been there favourite option
That's certainly true for Malygos Rogue, but less so for other decks like Priest and Druid, I think.
With every (ab)use of Malygos, it is always the central card in every combo. Which definitely makes it the contender for consideration.
That said, however, going back to thread point, the disappearance of Radiant Elemental will certainly make it harder to pull off OTKs (though not impossible) using Malygos with priest decks, since they can't spam direct damage spells for eternity at your face.
(Slight exaggeration for dramatic effect* )
I love priest, and I'll be sad to see those cards go, but priest is most fun as a mid-range/control deck and not a combo deck, so it's not a huge deal.
Malygos can definitely limit design space, so it might be time to address it. The problem is, as one of the dragon flight alongside deathwing and ysera and whatnot, they can't just HoF him. He's part of an all-classic set. So either they change his design, or they HoF him and replace him with a different malygos
Yep - the best priest deck that ever was (Not necessarily the strongest) was the original Dragon Priest. With the Operatives, etc. That deck was definitely the most fun deck to play.
In regards to your second paragraph - to me, that's only really a flavour thing, and flavour shouldn't outweigh design in my opinion. If need be, they could move all the dragons to HoF - I dont think that's necessary myself, but it wouldn't be a huge loss of any kind.
I play the control version which can do a fair whack of damage, but cannot wipe you out in one turn. The velen / maly res thing feels a little cheap, but I suppose considering the ridiculous armour gain of some classes, maybe it's ok. It feels very similar to rogue maly, with vanish standing in for scream.
You're thinking of Radiant Elemental only as the issue?
They are also losing Shadow Visions, their DK, Guilded Gargoyle, Psychic Scream, and Spirit Lash.
The main reason priest burst decks even work is because they don't have to rely on ONE SPECIFIC combo to pull it off. They can draw more burst with Visions, score some crazy blows with Lyra, and their DK lets them extend their reach.
Without that, the deck literally only has the OTK itself. And they can't even pull coins or discount their spells to make THAT work.
Even if Maly isn't HoFed, and I'm pretty sure it will be, the entire archetype is dead.
As for blizzard and OTK, Blizzard has been shown to be willing to change their design philosophy, so trying to lock them down permanently to old sayings really isn't going to work long term. As far as THAT specific line, they have kept away from the old styled combo decks that kill you by turn 6, like Miracle Rogue. Meanwhile, it's pretty darn clear that they are experimenting with Combo decks again by making them late game if not pure fatigue, like Mechathun and Hakkar.
And honestly I think they did a good job of it. YES, they feel insane now but we're at teh end of the cycle. The decks should be 100% refined and at max power at this point, similar to how Reno decks became fully stable at the time of Mean Streets. They do need some tweaking, mostly in them needing to be vulnerable to aggro, as our combo decks seem to be more 'anti-control greed' rather than 'fast combo' like the old days. We also need a stronger midrange that can deal with them.
(no, they should still rock fatigue. You should be afraid of something if you decide to not have a win condition of SOME type, similar to what happens if you don't have a minion above 4 mana on the aggro side)
But yes, mind blast priest is dead, assuming the next expansion doesn't save it somehow, and typically decks that have been around a while don't survive rotation (decks made THIS expansion though will be around, so if you hate Paladin OTK..well, sorry)
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
I think it's kind of interesting how OTK Paladin was a literally terrible deck for every expansion until it finally got a small chance to shine in this one.
I don't hate the deck - nor do I particularly like it - it's a bit of a 1-trick-pony show for me. But I like that it has at least had a good go before the DK leaves.
I kind of wish some of the other Quests and DKs had been given a better chance (like Quest Hunter and Quest Shaman, etc).
That, I feel, is how a deck should 'grow' throughout it's time here. New deck concepts should be meme/tier-4 status when it comes in, then slowly grow over time. Then given the final piece to 'bloom' on the expansion before it's key cards go away.
Honestly, the big issue with just about all of the decks since the Witchwood nerf, including all of those druid ones, is how #@*()$#*) long they survived. We loved the mess out of them between the Nerf and Boomsday. If that was, instead, between Rumble and Rotation then we would only JUST start getting bored of Kingsbanes and Druids when it was time for rotation. That's also why I feel the Priest and Hunter decks are overall ok: they bloomed in Rumble, and will have time to shine before they leave. And they will leave, HARD next expansion.
Paladin OTK will soften but wont' go away, because what made it work was the combination of the DK combo and the Tiger Combo. The DK combo will leave but the Tiger combo will stay. But that combo alone isn't enough to carry the deck fully. So it'll have to heavily adapt and perhaps accept, at best, tier 2-3 status.
As far as Quest hunter/shaman, I think the concept of Quest hunter, throwing masses of small fries at you, will have a shot, similar to how Taunt Warrior was first made in TgT and took all the way to Un'Goro to bloom.
Murloc Shaman just makes no sense and probably needed to go :P. Some ideas just aren't meant to pan out.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
The whole package of Radiant, Shadow Visions, Eternal Servitude, and Spellstone will be the death knell. Mind Blast Priest will not survive.
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Shadow visions is a much bigger deal. Lyra isn't a big deal at all, the more OTK focused version of res priest doesn't even run Lyra.
Mind blast priest could still exist but it would have to be played quite differently. No res cards so you would need the spirit or something to get a one mana copy, then draw that with a tutor - vivid nightmares - double mind blast. something like that but with no shadow visions it would probably be too hard to assemble the combo pieces. probably a heavy cycle deck,not likely to actually be good or exist without some support.
I really like resurrect priest, both versions of the deck. I'll be sad to see them go.
I don't think Malygos should be hall of famed. It's a fine card. I don't think team 5 has anything against OTK decks, they just printed Mechathun.
holy wrath paladin will probably be the best combo deck in the game honestly since so many of the others will die (res priest, mechathun lock, topsy priest, etc). It losses the dual win condition of the horseman but HW is the bread and butter combo and almost every other card in that deck will still be in standard, and if it is able to be a competitive deck before rotation, it will probably be stupidly strong after. I won't be surprised if Shirvallah bouncing is nerfed in some way or another. It's one of the most insane swings in the game once you get it's cost to 0 and start bouncing it. Of all the good decks out there right now it stands out as being one of the least affected by rotation. Losing Zola isn't great but you could replace that with a second baleful banker that you could just play for value and not for the combo.
Its depend on the new coming cards we cant assume it will die .
and i dont think malygos will get HoF they only pick the most played cards from Natural poll like Ragnaros and sylfa ,,,,,
Mind Blast will always have a spot in Tavern Brawl.
What Blizzard needs to move away in priest is Topsy Turvy/Inner Fire crap. It's budget priest win condition, and I should know as I was a wild player with only Naxx and some basic cards two years ago trying to get back into the game. With Skulking Geist moving out, I think the "waah, priest beat me, Blizz plz nerf" crowd will focus on those two cards. Which sucks because looking at what's left for priest ain't pretty.
Thief Priest has made a small comeback since disappearing in Un'Goro, but it can't be a win condition if the meta is full of hyper aggro decks or cards that synergize with a class (garbage buffing like aggro paladin/evolve shamans or weapons). It was a hell of a lot of fun, though.
I really want a priest deck that makes Shadowform legit. DK Anduin came close, but the mechanic still didn't feel like the right answer.
Radiant is a important card but Shadow Visions is the card that enabled so many powerful spell based Priest decks over the last two years. Mindblast was joke before Shadow Visions, it will go back to being a joke after it rotates out.
I wasn't sure what the answer to OP's question is, so I asked a Doomsayer. He said
Mana reduction is everything for a lot of different types of OTK decks that have been around. Unless a copycat card is introduced into the game via uninspired fashion then I suspect OTK priest will be DOA in standard.
Now combo priest on the other hand. That could still be a thing. As long as you can burn large chunks of the opponent's face away there will be a way.
If it doesn't die cause of the radiant loss it will for sure die cause of losing resurrect effects, the deck is not consistent enough to make sure you don't draw velen and malygos and if you do you get rekt, with no way to bring minions back then that deck is gonna see no play, unless some more revive effects get printed. We're losing every single card that allows you to go for the otk (Radiants, visions and gargoyles) but even if we got some mana reduction stuff it'll still be a bad deck cause you can't revive your stuff so it'll just be way too inconsistent.
HOF isn't for trouble cards. Trouble cards get nerfed. They don't dump trouble to Wild. Wild isn't a dumping ground of bad cards.
The concept behind HoF is that deck archetypes aren't supposed to last more than 2 years in Standard. Afterwards, they are supposed to critically change themselves or fall away completely.
This was the real crime behind decks like freeze mage. The deck itself was not a problem. If ice block was a Rumble card it would be a fine addition to the game with us experimenting with this 'freeze mage' thing. However, after 2 years, that deck would go away from standard
Freeze mage never left. It would be less useful in certain metas, but every expansion there was the question of "will this revive freeze mage?" And if it does, if came back with basically the same game style: stall with whatever removal it can gather, hunt cards, find the win condition. We've been overall playing that same deck for 4 years until ice block rotated. That is the problem.
If a card or deck is a problem, it's nerfed. If it's NOT a problem but survives past 2 years, it's HoFed.
That's the issue with Malygos. He spawns the same deck archetype no matter what class or what sets we have. We've been Malygos bursting for 5 years now. He's not a bad card. But he's an old card. And Standard is NOT the place for old things. That's what Wild is for.
So that's why people are saying Malygos is primed for the HoF. He's served his time. It's time we move on to other things, like Mechathun or Hakkar or..something else.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.