Hearthpwn

Quote from Dunscot >>

Quote from Eddan >>

 A poor comparison. A Rogue needs these specific card in there hand to pull this exact combo of effectively. Token Druid can do damage similar to this when combined with a small amount of Token already on the board. They have have 2 Tokens with 2 attack each on the board, they have Savage Roar in the hand, that's 10 damage just like that. Are you seeing what i'm getting at? This is with the lowest amount of effort possible. The better the deck, the better the player, the more damage you take in one turn from no wear. Would it feel good for the other player lose that much health because they could not clear 2 Tokens with no removal in hand, or taunt on the field? 

These things need to be questioned, and how people can be okay with it.

 Having two minions on the board is not nothing, and harder to accomplish than it might sound. Not to mention that Taunts can get in the way. And more importantly, it is the only source of burst damage (besides Swipe maybe) Druid has access to. It is indeed a poor comparison to Rogue's burst potential, since Rogue has many more ways to push for damage and has a more solid gameplan than just relying on a specific board state. You make it sound like Savage Roar is a 3 mana Pyroblast, which it really isn't.  Especially not, since Force of Nature was nerfed.

Savage Roar is only really playable in decks that try to get many minions on the board. What seems oh-so-unfair to you is actually a fairly situational win condition, tied to a strategy that oftentimes had no chance in the meta.

Your only real point here is that Druid is relatively good right now at filling the board and thus more likely to win games with SR. But this has less to do with the deck being too good, and more with the other classes being not good enough at countering it. Standard has the least possible amount of board clears and Taunt minions right now, and this will likely change next expansion. I think it is more likely that Token Druid will get weaker over time, than stronger.

Remember Journey to Un'Goro? Back then, Token Druid was very strong and popular as well, thanks to Living Mana and the super strong Mark of the Lotus, and the fact that Patches the Pirate was a "free" minion. In Frozen Throne, Token Druid was a lot less popular already, and by K&C it was pretty much dead. While it was still a decent deck, other decks just got more support and more answers to it. Just shows you how fragile this strategy really is.

Right now, it's really all the same, except for the fact that were are just one week into the new expansion. Even if Token Druid survives the experimental phase before the meta settles down, which I wouldn't bet on, it could look at lot worse by next expansion already. And for fast actions, it is nowhere near as oppressive right now as some other decks that warranted this kind of intervention, like Quest Rogue in JTU or Jade Druid in KFT, which were entirely shutting down most other decks in the game.

 You say it's hard to accomplish having two minions on board, i would have agree on this if we where talking about an entirely different deck. You either ignore or have forgotten about the cards in Token Druid that makes filling the board with multiple minions easy. Acornbearer, Dreamway Guardians, Landscaping, Whispering Woods and The Forest' Aid. With all these ways to fill the board with minions, limited amount of removal for most classes, there is a high chance something will eventually stick. Add Soul of The Forest and the opposing player will have an even harder way to clear the board. Look to my previous comment and you realize doing more than 10 damage for less than 10 Mana is very easy to accomplish for the deck. 

The reason why the deck wasn't so prevalent earlier, was because the tools to deal with the deck was there, now there is a lot less of it. The easiest way to not let this deck become oppressive and overpopulated, would be to not reward this play style so much and let them work for it more, this can be achieved by turning down the power level of the deck a bit. I have no wish to kill the deck, it's part of the Druid class identity, used to play Combo Druid in the past and some elements are shared between them. 

Quote from CatalystCrypt >>

Quote from Eddan >>

Quote from UnkarsThug >>

Right now, People are saying that pretty much any deck that's strong is OP. The issue is, If every deck is OP, that just means that the power level is higher overall. there will always be a top 5 decks, and that's about what we have now. In addition, the meta still hasn't settled. There could be control decks people haven't tried yet. 

Token druid isn't unbeatable. I routinely do with a murloc shaman. I have about a 50% winrate vs. token with a silence warlock. If it's still a problem in a month, then you can let us know.

 

Quote from UnkarsThug >>

Right now, People are saying that pretty much any deck that's strong is OP. The issue is, If every deck is OP, that just means that the power level is higher overall. there will always be a top 5 decks, and that's about what we have now. In addition, the meta still hasn't settled. There could be control decks people haven't tried yet. 

Token druid isn't unbeatable. I routinely do with a murloc shaman. I have about a 50% winrate vs. token with a silence warlock. If it's still a problem in a month, then you can let us know.

 I think there is an misunderstanding, this thread is not about beating the deck, it is to question the deck and discuss if the thing it can do with a small amount of resources is worth to highlight or ignore. 

 Leeroy Jenkins+Cold Blood+Cold Blood=14 damage. Before the nerf, it was 7 mana deal 14 damage. In three cards. At least Token Druid gives you a fucking turn before you get SMOrced.

Quote from CatalystCrypt >>

Quote from Eddan >>

Quote from UnkarsThug >>

Right now, People are saying that pretty much any deck that's strong is OP. The issue is, If every deck is OP, that just means that the power level is higher overall. there will always be a top 5 decks, and that's about what we have now. In addition, the meta still hasn't settled. There could be control decks people haven't tried yet. 

Token druid isn't unbeatable. I routinely do with a murloc shaman. I have about a 50% winrate vs. token with a silence warlock. If it's still a problem in a month, then you can let us know.

 

Quote from UnkarsThug >>

Right now, People are saying that pretty much any deck that's strong is OP. The issue is, If every deck is OP, that just means that the power level is higher overall. there will always be a top 5 decks, and that's about what we have now. In addition, the meta still hasn't settled. There could be control decks people haven't tried yet. 

Token druid isn't unbeatable. I routinely do with a murloc shaman. I have about a 50% winrate vs. token with a silence warlock. If it's still a problem in a month, then you can let us know.

 I think there is an misunderstanding, this thread is not about beating the deck, it is to question the deck and discuss if the thing it can do with a small amount of resources is worth to highlight or ignore. 

 Leeroy Jenkins+Cold Blood+Cold Blood=14 damage. Before the nerf, it was 7 mana deal 14 damage. In three cards. At least Token Druid gives you a fucking turn before you get SMOrced.

 A poor comparison. A Rogue needs these specific card in there hand to pull this exact combo of effectively. Token Druid can do damage similar to this when combined with a small amount of Token already on the board. They have have 2 Tokens with 2 attack each on the board, they have Savage Roar in the hand, that's 10 damage just like that. Are you seeing what i'm getting at? This is with the lowest amount of effort possible. The better the deck, the better the player, the more damage you take in one turn from no wear. Would it feel good for the other player lose that much health because they could not clear 2 Tokens with no removal in hand, or taunt on the field? 

These things need to be questioned, and how people can be okay with it.

Quote from UnkarsThug >>

Right now, People are saying that pretty much any deck that's strong is OP. The issue is, If every deck is OP, that just means that the power level is higher overall. there will always be a top 5 decks, and that's about what we have now. In addition, the meta still hasn't settled. There could be control decks people haven't tried yet. 

Token druid isn't unbeatable. I routinely do with a murloc shaman. I have about a 50% winrate vs. token with a silence warlock. If it's still a problem in a month, then you can let us know.

Quote from UnkarsThug >>

Right now, People are saying that pretty much any deck that's strong is OP. The issue is, If every deck is OP, that just means that the power level is higher overall. there will always be a top 5 decks, and that's about what we have now. In addition, the meta still hasn't settled. There could be control decks people haven't tried yet. 

Token druid isn't unbeatable. I routinely do with a murloc shaman. I have about a 50% winrate vs. token with a silence warlock. If it's still a problem in a month, then you can let us know.

 I think there is an misunderstanding, this thread is not about beating the deck, it is to question the deck and discuss if the thing it can do with a small amount of resources is worth to highlight or ignore. 

Quote from iWatchUSleep >>

Quote from Eddan >>

Quote from iWatchUSleep >>

https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/vs-data-reaper-report-126/

Yup, -token druid- is the problem.

 Shouldn't there be multiple viable ways to play a class? I don't know if you realize this, but you kinda strengthen my point.

 Your entire original post is whining about how token druid is stupidly overpowered, yet it's not even the strongest deck. Hmmm

 So you choose to stay ignorant, i guess there is no point to reach out to some..

Quote from iWatchUSleep >>

https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/vs-data-reaper-report-126/

Yup, -token druid- is the problem.

 Shouldn't there be multiple viable ways to play a class? I don't know if you realize this, but you kinda strengthen my point.

Quote from Infirc >>

e

Quote from CatalystCrypt >>

Hi, my name is Bomb Warrior. Everyone hated me when I was in the meta for 5 days. Now this is my friend, Token Druid. Token Druid is a stupid aggro deck, like me. Everyone hates us because we SMOrc. Token Druid would like to talk to you:

"Hi. You asked me if there are enough board clears/removal. I have been fucked to many times by warrior with Warpath, Brawl, Omega Devastator, Execute, Dr. Boom's hero powers, and Dyn-o-matic. You hate me. Sure I'm fine with that. I bet you hated Odd Paladin, Undertaker Hunter, Pre-nerf Quest Rogue, Spell Hunter, OTK Priest, and pretty much every deck with >50% winrate. I would say go to the salt thread but I'm not one of those people."

Deal with it mate. Or just play any control deck.

 it isnt good when the only counter to a particular rather cheap deck is paying 15k dust or stomach up mirror matches, the game was on an all-time low when the only counter to face-hunter was 15k dust for control warrior, not many people can afford it, and on the other hand it makes the game look pay2win because that guy that could afford the control deck with a shitload of epics beats the aggro deck everytime,  they should have printed cheaper low rarity aoE for other classes, hell even a reprint of Volcanic Potion would have been welcomed.

 Here we have someone who get's the message! 

Quote from BrokenCycle >>

Nothing wrong with token druid. It's easy to beat with plenty of decks. If you don't want to play those decks and hate to lose to token druid, that's your problem.

I'm glad token druid is here. I'd hate to be in a meta where everyone plays the same archetype, and this meta has everything from aggro to control doing fine.

 You seam to be misinformed, if this was the case, why is it so successful? I just don't want the game to be revolved around that particular deck, i'm just worried about the future.

Quote from Dunscot >>

If you play Rogue, you have a powerful deck almost every meta, you have a solid core set that mostly stays untouched, and rarely if ever are you the target of a shitstorm. Sure Blade Flurry is dead forever, Cold Blood was nerfed, and Conceal was kicked out. I guess The Caverns Below was largely despised. But then again, you are never treated with the hostility that other classes usually get whenever they are on top, like Hunter or Priest.

If you play Druid however, people hate you out of muscle memory, no matter how good or bad the class actually is. Almost all your core cards and archetypes are nerfed and mostly unplayable, yet people still say "Oh, Druid has so many good Classic and Basic cards" and if you ever get a deck with a positive winrate going, people cry for nerfs again until the currently viable archetype is trash as well. And the developers listen EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Thanks to this outrage, it's only a matter of weeks before Savage Roar and Swipe get destroyed. Are they the main culprits? Probably not, but they are basic cards. And those are played in "every Druid deck evar!!" unlike such highly situational and rarely utilized cards like Backstab or Kill Command.  Obviously, Druid is not allowed to be "good". It has ONE playable archetype left that got a lot of support this expansion and is still quite beatable. But it's Druid, so people complain and they will keep complaining until it's nerfed once again.

Might as well delete the class.

 

 

 It's not about allowing Druid to be good, it's about the things the class can do with minimal resources. There was a reason why Force of Nature+Savage Roar was nerfed. 

There are other ways of playing Druid. Malygos Druid and Heal Druid are some of them. The expansion is still young, so other Druid deck might appear.

Quote from episode63 >>

Quote from Eddan >>

Quote from episode63 >>

Well, what is Druid going to do otherwise? They gutted combo then they gutted ramp. Do you want Druid to just flat out suck? Like, I get it, tokens and sticky minions are annoying. But again, what else are they going to do? They made it so Druid sucks otherwise, so tokens it is. And lets not imagine this is a recent "problem" token druid has been a thing since the dawn of Hearthstone. It's often complained about early in expansions because everyone is playing the greediest decks, which obviously aggressive decks and sticky minion decks punish. This is not new, at all. I guess that's why I'm defending token druid (and I don't even play it, I have no vested interest in defending it, I just don't want to see Druid disappear for another expansion).

 I will tell you.

Token Druid is an deck archetype that has been around for a very long time, it's part of the class identity. What i'm trying to say is that the deck gets away with thing it shouldn't. Maybe a once per turn clause on spells like Savage Roar and Bloodlust is the way to prevent high extremely high burst damage in 1 Turn? Maybe make Soul of the Forest only give the Deathrattle to less minions could also help to turn down the power of the archetype without destroying it completely? I want the deck to still be around, just turned down in power to encourage people to play different decks.

Token Druid is not the only way to play Druid. Heal Druid is very new and is a deck i could see getting more support in the future. I have also seen some Malygos Druid decks running around. Like many people are saying, the expansion is still pretty new, so another Druid deck type might be right in front of us, but we don't see it.

 Every good deck "gets away with things they shouldn't" it is up to you to balance your deck. If that means including tech against tokens, then maybe you have to do that. There are SO many strong decks out there and the Meta is still new, of course aggro is strong (it's been a while, so much combo/control last few expansions) but that's not the deck's fault. If don't like those changes you propose, if they have a board and double savage roar in hand, well, why do they have a board on turn 6/8/10+ and if they do, maybe your deck was just countered, you don't have enough against sticky boards, maybe you drew wrong...like I get that that's what token druid does (push to stick on board) so it's hard to combat but again, that's not the deck's fault. I don't find anything about token druid overpowered, again, it's been the same (basically) since vanilla, it's been strong at times but never a problem in need of a nerf. If they want to nerf something, the 1 mana 2/1 which gives 2 1/1s seems pretty busted...shouldn't a better power level for it only give 1 1/1? It would still be played/be valuable, but druid would take a small hit at the same time. The rest of the deck...are all basic sorta power level cards, what would even be nerfed? Everything in the deck, all the cards are balanced. The only thing I'd change is Acornbearer to give 1 squirrel and that's it. Oh, actually the uh Eccentric Scribe should probably be nerfed to a 5/4 and/or only summon 3 1/1 scrolls. Those two nerfs combined would make token druid balanced for me/you all probably.

 Should the game be revolved around beating one deck? That would be pretty bad for the health of the game. This tread is not about beating Token Druid, it is to highlight what Token Druid can do if they draw well and you don't. A few decks could need a fix in the long run, Token Druid is one of them. 

Quote from Murthag54 >>

Why wouldn't you play Zoolock, seems to be a good counter against token Druid, isn't it ?

 This Thread is not about beating Token Druid, it is to open peoples eyes to something that could be oppressive in the future if not cheeped in check.

Quote from Rutledge64 >>

I am a token druid player and it is the scumiest deck in the meta

 

Quote from 1xbenx1 >>

^ Token Druid ^

 I see your logic, but if thing are like this, something isn't right.

Quote from sicknantos >>

I beat token druid consistently with midrange hunter (not the meta version on HSReplay), but I can think of a few reasons why it's getting defended:

It's not broken.
It has a win rate that's within 3% of the next 7 or 8 decks beneath it.
It has counters that are viable and part of those 7 or 8 other decks.
It's been 1 week since the new expansion dropped.

There's no reason to cry wolf here. It's a strong deck in a meta game that's far from being fully formed. We need at least 1-2 weeks more before we start declaring a 55% win rate deck unfair.

Token druid crumbles when you can consistently undermine those little tokens by clearing them over and over. That burst potential doesn't mean anything when they don't have any minions on board to capitalize on it. Hunter alone (the "me go face, no trade" class) has Rapid Shot, Unleash the Beast, Headhunter's Hatchet, Springpaw, Shimmerfly, Unleash the Hounds, Marked Shot, Baited Arrow, and Zul'jin to completely dominate this supposed broken deck.

Get token druid to trade more than go face and you're already winning.

Best of luck!

 That's good for you and your points are reasonable, but is it fun to lose the game on the early turns because you didn't draw draw on of the cards you mentioned? I think not.

So what if you are not playing Hunter or a deck with not as much removal or board presence at the start of the game, should you give up? I believe Token Druid don't encourage deck diversity, have answers or lose early could hurt the game. I think some things needs to be highlighted before it becomes a big problem that hurts the game.

I want to believe you, but its a little hard when you mostly mention one version of Hunter as the answer .

Quote from LuisCR >>

Quote from LatinDovah >>

Because complaining and asking for nerfs when we are just 2 weeks in after a new expansion release and a standard rotation is silly. 

Besides theres nothing oppressive right now

 

 I simply believe things needs to be turned down, before too much damage is inflicted. Why is that so bad?

Quote from GrimPaladin >>

Stop posting ANOTHER thread like this. Contribute to an existing thread if you're feeling salty. 

 If you don't like the topic? Don't read the thread. It's not for you.

Quote from Horkinger >>

Quote from Eddan >>

Quote from Horkinger >>

Quote from RavenSunHP >>

Another interesting question is: why is nobody complaining of Rogue?

https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/drr/classarchetype-distribution-data-reaper-report/

https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/drr/vs-power-rankings-data-reaper-report/

https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/drr/matchup-chart-data-reaper-report/

Both Lackey Rogue and Token Druid are top tier, and have only few unfavourable matchups, but Rogue seems to be much more frequent in the meta.

So why Druid only?

I am pretty certain the reason is because he lost to Druid and not to Rogue.

@topic:Firstly, I am aware that some decks or cards need fixing and I am also fine with almost all nerfs Blizzard carried out, even if I thought they where superfluous. And I can absolutely understand where all these nerf proposals come from. I am not immune to rage inducing losses against decks I hate and I more than once called my opponents cheap netdecking brainless whatevers. In particular, when I try to make a new deck idea work and get beaten over and over again.

But I know that it is inavitable that there are Tier 1 decks. And they are Tier 1 for the exact reason that they are better than other decks. So after a short time I calm down and try to improve the deck or dismiss it. But the reason I try to build a deck is that I want to win with it, i.e. in best case I create myself a Tier 1 deck.

I mean that is likely the goal of most deckbuilders. And therefore I think that most complaints that another deck is unbeatable are just a different way of saying "I want to win myself", otherwise there would be no reason to complain. So in the end, the complaint is merely that the own deck doesn't have the Tier 1 place of the hated deck.

 

 I am thankful that you understand what this tread is about. I believe Token Druid is one of the decks that needs a fix before it goes out of hand. I would love to see a game with multiple Tier 1 Decks battling it out like rock, paper, scissors. I think that would be good for the game.  

 There we disagree. I don't think Token Druid needs a fix. At least not yet. The meta is still new and still in change. I consider the call for nerfs premature. But I also wouldn't have a big issue with nerfs. It wouldn't change anything since there would just be another king of the hill people will complain about.

And rock/paper/scissors is not really healthy. Knowing who wins just because you can see the decks gets boring pretty quick. Favored winrates of the high Tier decks? Yes please. Highly polarized winrates of the top decks? Better not.

 Maybe rock/paper/scissors was the wrong way to put it, i just think that a meta game with many viable decks would make the game more fun for everyone.