Im talking about random summon cards: Unstable Evolution and Astromancer is just some of these and there are alot more in wild. Those card would be insane if the bad outcomes where buffed. This is why u cant ever buff all the bad cards.
Im talking about random summon cards: Unstable Evolution and Astromancer is just some of these and there are alot more in wild. Those card would be insane if the bad outcomes where buffed. This is why u cant ever buff all the bad cards.
Yeah, I know what you're talking about, and I agree that there needs to be bad options, which my examples show there still are. However, would it be game changing if your Unstable Evolution transformed a card into a Core Hound with 1 more health?
While I agree that some cards should be better than others, I still believe that at least basic cards should adhere to a mana/stat formula, as I stated in an earlier post.
Your mistake is that you're only taking competitive decks into account. New players exist, so anything that helps them to a certain extent is welcome.
Also, Arena.
Lol-wut?! That's not a mistake. That's basic understanding of the game. New players in the game is completely irrelevant. A player's experience in the game has literally no bearing on the power and usefulness of a card. That's like saying "War Golem is a better card than X because a new player only has this card so plays it more". It's utter bonkers! Lol!
As for Arena, the exact same point I made before applies. If a classic card is now a better, more powerful pick in Arena than it's expansion equivalent, then it's a problem and should never have been made that strong in the first place.
I have to disagree with you here scorpyon, even if I agree that buffs should generally be avoided (see below). Competitive decks are not the only decks that should be taken into account. Even ignoring Arena, casual and new players matter and the devs are completely right to provide cards for these players without any expectation they make it competitively.
Take Tess Greymane and burgle rogue decks more widely. These are not failed cards or archetypes at all because a meaningful section of the player base enjoys playing them despite having sub-optimal win rates. If anything I would argue it is the popular yet harmless archetypes like burgle rogue that are the most successful design-wise, but that's a discussion for other threads. The point is that the devs should and do put effort into archetypes without any need for them to be competitive.
Coming back to buffs however, one really has to be careful of what the aim is and I think the OP was on the right track. The aim presented is not to make the Basic (or Classic but I would prefer to restrict it to Basic myself) set competitive. Instead the aim is to give new players a slightly higher win rate and thereby increase their enjoyment of the game, keeping them playing for longer until they can go through the process of learning which cards would make good replacements. To that end I would support small buffs to some of the never used Basic cards, keeping them below the cut-throat competitive power level while making the game feel less unfair to those just starting out.
Otherwise I am generally opposed to buffs because they do promote power creep. It is better to do what the devs already do and print meaningful commons so everyone has easy access to them, that way if they make a mistake and make it a bit too powerful it will eventually cycle out of Standard with no long-term harm to the game. In fairness to HS power creep has actually been quite small on the whole (Year of the Mammoth notwithstanding), as evidenced by how popular many of the Basic and Classic cards still are.
--------------------------------------------
Tl;dr: competitive decks are not all that matter; the aim of buffs should be to make cards playable but not competitive; I would support minor buffs to some Basic cards; and I generally oppose buffs to anything else.
I know this has been done to death, but I thought I'd throw in my cents on how to buff basic and classic cards. Mostly, when this has been done, people tend to overdo it, breaking the cards completely. Instead, I'd like to focus on the shit-tier cards, and make them less so. The intention isn't to make them top tier level, but to bring them in line with many of the other cards in the sets.
Basic
Druid
Healing Touch Healing increased to 10 - So many other druid cards are just so much better, either offering armor or versatility, or, in the case of Branching Paths, both. It's still not a good card, but at least it isn't outshone by every other heal spell.
Hunter
No changes
Mage
No changes
Paladin
Holy Light Healing increased to 7 - Just like Healing Touch, Holy Light belongs on the bottom of heal spells. If you compare it to Flash Heal, which even has added utility in priest when used with cards like Auchenai Soulpriest, it's hard to understand why it only heals for 1 more, while costing 1 more mana.
Priest
No changes
Rogue
No changes
Shaman
Totemic Might Cost increased to 1, text changed to "Give your totems +1/+1". Much more useful now, maybe even playable. Compared to Mark of the Lotus it's still subpar, but at least it's not trash.
Booty Bay Bodyguard Health buffed to 5 - Attributes brought in line with other taunt minions.
Core Hound Health increased to 6 - Attributes brought in line with other vanilla minions.
Lord of the Arena Attack increased to 7 - Attributes brought in line with other taunt minions.
Silverback Patriarch Attack increased to 2 - Attributes brought in line with other taunt minions.
War Golem Attack increased to 8 - Attributes brought in line with other vanilla minions.
Classic
Druid
Ancient of Lore Heal increased to 8 - Back in beta, Ancient of Lore used to heal for 8, but was nerfed to 5 as 8 was deemed too powerful. Today, I have my doubts, especially when the draw has been reduced to 1 card instead of 2.
Savagery Can target players as well - Still not a good card, but upping utility a bit could help a lot. Alternatively, cost could be upped to 4, and damage would be dealt to all enemy minions.
Hunter
No changes
Mage
No changes
Paladin
No changes
Priest
Shadowform Mana reduced to 2 - This will bring it in line with cards like Dinomancy. Still, I don't think this will ever be played over Shadowreaper Anduin, but he'll soon leave standard so... who knows?
U cant just buff cards. That would make random summons insane when there are no bad outcomes.
Blizzard releases bad cards with every expansion. More now than ever, in fact.
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Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health. - Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
FWIW - since the format split three years ago, Blizzard has nerfed or HoF'd 35 cards from the two evergreen sets.
Nevertheless, if you look at the stats on HSReplays, 41 of the 100 most-played cards in Standard are from the two evergreen sets. Basic and Classic have a huge impact on this game - owing to their power level, the final two expansions of the year contributed a total of only twelve cards to the "highly-played" list. Folks playing this game barely had to collect new cards for the past year - and that isn't good for the long-term health of the game. Folks get pretty bored of playing the same decks for a full year, and it's disappointing for everyone when entire sets fail to make any appreciable impact on ladder. The first "C" in CCG is the main reason folks bother playing this game at all - but it was as if that C simply dropped from the game after the launch of WW . . .
Buffing evergreens doesn't seem to be a particularly good idea, all things considered.
FWIW - since the format split three years ago, Blizzard has nerfed or HoF'd 35 cards from the two evergreen sets.
Nevertheless, if you look at the stats on HSReplays, 41 of the 100 most-played cards in Standard are from the two evergreen sets. Basic and Classic have a huge impact on this game - owing to their power level, the final two expansions of the year contributed a total of only twelve cards to the "highly-played" list. Folks playing this game barely had to collect new cards for the past year - and that isn't good for the long-term health of the game. Folks get pretty bored of playing the same decks for a full year, and it's disappointing for everyone when entire sets fail to make any appreciable impact on ladder. The first "C" in CCG is the main reason folks bother playing this game at all - but it was as if that C simply dropped from the game after the launch of WW . . .
Buffing evergreens doesn't seem to be a particularly good idea, all things considered.
I doubt any of my proposed buffs would make a single difference to that statistic. I'm not trying to make good cards better, just bad cards fair.
FWIW - since the format split three years ago, Blizzard has nerfed or HoF'd 35 cards from the two evergreen sets.
Nevertheless, if you look at the stats on HSReplays, 41 of the 100 most-played cards in Standard are from the two evergreen sets. Basic and Classic have a huge impact on this game - owing to their power level, the final two expansions of the year contributed a total of only twelve cards to the "highly-played" list. Folks playing this game barely had to collect new cards for the past year - and that isn't good for the long-term health of the game. Folks get pretty bored of playing the same decks for a full year, and it's disappointing for everyone when entire sets fail to make any appreciable impact on ladder. The first "C" in CCG is the main reason folks bother playing this game at all - but it was as if that C simply dropped from the game after the launch of WW . . .
Buffing evergreens doesn't seem to be a particularly good idea, all things considered.
I doubt any of my proposed buffs would make a single difference to that statistic. I'm not trying to make good cards better, just bad cards fair.
^ This. I support most of this changes, it would make most of this cards to be a bit more "elegant", instead of just a total piece of shit. Very, veeery probably, this cards wouldn't still be playable in competitive decks, but at least looking at them wouldn't feel so depressing. ;)
Im talking about random summon cards: Unstable Evolution and Astromancer is just some of these and there are alot more in wild. Those card would be insane if the bad outcomes where buffed. This is why u cant ever buff all the bad cards.
Yeah, I know what you're talking about, and I agree that there needs to be bad options, which my examples show there still are. However, would it be game changing if your Unstable Evolution transformed a card into a Core Hound with 1 more health?
While I agree that some cards should be better than others, I still believe that at least basic cards should adhere to a mana/stat formula, as I stated in an earlier post.
Yes it would be game changing, there are hardly no spells that deal 6, but there are some that deal with 5hp. 1 more hp on what ever minion i always a huge thing, since this minion now have less counters. And not being able to remove corehound would cost u the game in most cases.
Im talking about random summon cards: Unstable Evolution and Astromancer is just some of these and there are alot more in wild. Those card would be insane if the bad outcomes where buffed. This is why u cant ever buff all the bad cards.
Yeah, I know what you're talking about, and I agree that there needs to be bad options, which my examples show there still are. However, would it be game changing if your Unstable Evolution transformed a card into a Core Hound with 1 more health?
While I agree that some cards should be better than others, I still believe that at least basic cards should adhere to a mana/stat formula, as I stated in an earlier post.
Yes it would be game changing, there are hardly no spells that deal 6, but there are some that deal with 5hp. 1 more hp on what ever minion i always a huge thing, since this minion now have less counters. And not being able to remove corehound would cost u the game in most cases.
Are you really suggesting that a Core Hound (a card that is considered a piece of shit, especially for its very low health at 7 mana) with only one more point of health would be overpowered? What??? You have to be kidding... Core Hound is a terrible, terrible outcome for cards that summon other ones, this would change almost nothing. It is like saying The Beast (which costs one less mana and has better stats than a Core Hound) is overpowered when summoned by other card, LOL.
Im talking about random summon cards: Unstable Evolution and Astromancer is just some of these and there are alot more in wild. Those card would be insane if the bad outcomes where buffed. This is why u cant ever buff all the bad cards.
Yeah, I know what you're talking about, and I agree that there needs to be bad options, which my examples show there still are. However, would it be game changing if your Unstable Evolution transformed a card into a Core Hound with 1 more health?
While I agree that some cards should be better than others, I still believe that at least basic cards should adhere to a mana/stat formula, as I stated in an earlier post.
Yes it would be game changing, there are hardly no spells that deal 6, but there are some that deal with 5hp. 1 more hp on what ever minion i always a huge thing, since this minion now have less counters. And not being able to remove corehound would cost u the game in most cases.
Are you really suggesting that a Core Hound (a card that is considered a piece of shit, especially for its very low health at 7 mana) with only one more point of health would be overpowered? What??? You have to be kidding... Core hound is a terrible, terrible outcome for cards that summon other ones, this would change almost nothing. It is like saying than The Beast (which costs one less mana and has better stats than a Core Hound) is overpowered when summoned by other card, LOL.
U didnt read what i wrote, im saying when u summon corehound with a random mechanic its no longer a bad summon but a pretty decent one, the 1 hp is insane buff and yes it makes the card almost playable aswell. The card is now immune to alot of removal and minion trading and this has made random summons so much better. I like that u have some random summon mechanics in hearthstone, but with this u cant just blindly buff alot of cards, it effects alot of other cards and what makes those summon card balanced is that there is a balance of what good and bad outcomes can happen. Remember when spiteful summoner cost 6 and the old gods 10 drops was around, it didnt see alot of play until the old god 10 drops was rotated out. same goes for Rexxar, before the lifesteal beasts he wasnt that good.
Im talking about random summon cards: Unstable Evolution and Astromancer is just some of these and there are alot more in wild. Those card would be insane if the bad outcomes where buffed. This is why u cant ever buff all the bad cards.
Yeah, I know what you're talking about, and I agree that there needs to be bad options, which my examples show there still are. However, would it be game changing if your Unstable Evolution transformed a card into a Core Hound with 1 more health?
While I agree that some cards should be better than others, I still believe that at least basic cards should adhere to a mana/stat formula, as I stated in an earlier post.
Yes it would be game changing, there are hardly no spells that deal 6, but there are some that deal with 5hp. 1 more hp on what ever minion i always a huge thing, since this minion now have less counters. And not being able to remove corehound would cost u the game in most cases.
Are you really suggesting that a Core Hound (a card that is considered a piece of shit, especially for its very low health at 7 mana) with only one more point of health would be overpowered? What??? You have to be kidding... Core hound is a terrible, terrible outcome for cards that summon other ones, this would change almost nothing. It is like saying than The Beast (which costs one less mana and has better stats than a Core Hound) is overpowered when summoned by other card, LOL.
U didnt read what i wrote, im saying when u summon corehound with a random mechanic its no longer a bad summon but a pretty decent one, the 1 hp is insane buff and yes it makes the card almost playable aswell. The card is now immune to alot of removal and minion trading and this has made random summons so much better. I like that u have some random summon mechanics in hearthstone, but with this u cant just blindly buff alot of cards, it effects alot of other cards and what makes those summon card balanced is that there is a balance of what good and bad outcomes can happen. Remember when spiteful summoner cost 6 and the old gods 10 drops was around, it didnt see alot of play until the old god 10 drops was rotated out. same goes for Rexxar, before the lifesteal beasts he wasnt that good.
You are the one who didn't read what I wrote. Please, tell me, do you considere The Beast a totally broken card when summoned by other one? Because I have never heard of such a thing...
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Maybe, maybe not. Most likely not.
Im talking about random summon cards: Unstable Evolution and Astromancer is just some of these and there are alot more in wild. Those card would be insane if the bad outcomes where buffed. This is why u cant ever buff all the bad cards.
Yeah, I know what you're talking about, and I agree that there needs to be bad options, which my examples show there still are. However, would it be game changing if your Unstable Evolution transformed a card into a Core Hound with 1 more health?
While I agree that some cards should be better than others, I still believe that at least basic cards should adhere to a mana/stat formula, as I stated in an earlier post.
I have to disagree with you here scorpyon, even if I agree that buffs should generally be avoided (see below). Competitive decks are not the only decks that should be taken into account. Even ignoring Arena, casual and new players matter and the devs are completely right to provide cards for these players without any expectation they make it competitively.
Take Tess Greymane and burgle rogue decks more widely. These are not failed cards or archetypes at all because a meaningful section of the player base enjoys playing them despite having sub-optimal win rates. If anything I would argue it is the popular yet harmless archetypes like burgle rogue that are the most successful design-wise, but that's a discussion for other threads. The point is that the devs should and do put effort into archetypes without any need for them to be competitive.
Coming back to buffs however, one really has to be careful of what the aim is and I think the OP was on the right track. The aim presented is not to make the Basic (or Classic but I would prefer to restrict it to Basic myself) set competitive. Instead the aim is to give new players a slightly higher win rate and thereby increase their enjoyment of the game, keeping them playing for longer until they can go through the process of learning which cards would make good replacements. To that end I would support small buffs to some of the never used Basic cards, keeping them below the cut-throat competitive power level while making the game feel less unfair to those just starting out.
Otherwise I am generally opposed to buffs because they do promote power creep. It is better to do what the devs already do and print meaningful commons so everyone has easy access to them, that way if they make a mistake and make it a bit too powerful it will eventually cycle out of Standard with no long-term harm to the game. In fairness to HS power creep has actually been quite small on the whole (Year of the Mammoth notwithstanding), as evidenced by how popular many of the Basic and Classic cards still are.
--------------------------------------------
Tl;dr: competitive decks are not all that matter; the aim of buffs should be to make cards playable but not competitive; I would support minor buffs to some Basic cards; and I generally oppose buffs to anything else.
Blizzard releases bad cards with every expansion. More now than ever, in fact.
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health.
- Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
FWIW - since the format split three years ago, Blizzard has nerfed or HoF'd 35 cards from the two evergreen sets.
Nevertheless, if you look at the stats on HSReplays, 41 of the 100 most-played cards in Standard are from the two evergreen sets. Basic and Classic have a huge impact on this game - owing to their power level, the final two expansions of the year contributed a total of only twelve cards to the "highly-played" list. Folks playing this game barely had to collect new cards for the past year - and that isn't good for the long-term health of the game. Folks get pretty bored of playing the same decks for a full year, and it's disappointing for everyone when entire sets fail to make any appreciable impact on ladder. The first "C" in CCG is the main reason folks bother playing this game at all - but it was as if that C simply dropped from the game after the launch of WW . . .
Buffing evergreens doesn't seem to be a particularly good idea, all things considered.
I doubt any of my proposed buffs would make a single difference to that statistic. I'm not trying to make good cards better, just bad cards fair.
^ This. I support most of this changes, it would make most of this cards to be a bit more "elegant", instead of just a total piece of shit. Very, veeery probably, this cards wouldn't still be playable in competitive decks, but at least looking at them wouldn't feel so depressing. ;)
Yes it would be game changing, there are hardly no spells that deal 6, but there are some that deal with 5hp. 1 more hp on what ever minion i always a huge thing, since this minion now have less counters. And not being able to remove corehound would cost u the game in most cases.
Are you really suggesting that a Core Hound (a card that is considered a piece of shit, especially for its very low health at 7 mana) with only one more point of health would be overpowered? What??? You have to be kidding... Core Hound is a terrible, terrible outcome for cards that summon other ones, this would change almost nothing. It is like saying The Beast (which costs one less mana and has better stats than a Core Hound) is overpowered when summoned by other card, LOL.
U didnt read what i wrote, im saying when u summon corehound with a random mechanic its no longer a bad summon but a pretty decent one, the 1 hp is insane buff and yes it makes the card almost playable aswell. The card is now immune to alot of removal and minion trading and this has made random summons so much better. I like that u have some random summon mechanics in hearthstone, but with this u cant just blindly buff alot of cards, it effects alot of other cards and what makes those summon card balanced is that there is a balance of what good and bad outcomes can happen. Remember when spiteful summoner cost 6 and the old gods 10 drops was around, it didnt see alot of play until the old god 10 drops was rotated out. same goes for Rexxar, before the lifesteal beasts he wasnt that good.
You are the one who didn't read what I wrote. Please, tell me, do you considere The Beast a totally broken card when summoned by other one? Because I have never heard of such a thing...