I wanna runt about control players. Just to be clear, I have no hate for control decks, just like i dont have any hate for aggro, midrange or combo decks. Right now im a wild player who tinkers a lot with both meme and serious otk decks, this is my passion. Quite often i get beaten by aggro decks, but i have never created a tread like this one https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/223022-nerf-sonya-shadowdancer when im crying like "my combo requires 9 mana and im dying against %deckname% turn earlier!". And actually nobody does (so its not a tread "be like me"), except for control players. For some cosmic reason they think that their playstyle is superior and no deck should counter them. "Jade druids are impossible to beat as contol decks", "Quest rogue destroys control decks", "Exodia mage is unbeatable", blah-blah-blah. I get your frustration, i still remember how powerless you feel as freeze mage vs CW, i guess this is something you feel. Just except it and move on. There are decks that destroys slow decks and most of them are really fun, so people will play it. Control decks are equal to any other playstyle and something gonna win something and lose to something else. Rock, paper, scissors.
Not superior but from my experience they are much nicer. Back in a day when i didn't auto-squelch people more often than not aggro players would spam emotes, roping when they have lethal, roping when they are losing etc. Just general BM. Priest players are exception, no matter what deck they play, they always BM. Control Warriors, Warlock, midrange shaman, paladin etc. usually are just regular players who are trying to have a good time. For whatever reason aggro players and Priest players, especially priest players will do everything in their power to make experience worse for you. Not sure why. Ofcourse there are exceptions to this, i'm just talking from my experience that doesn't mean that aggro players are bad people, perhaps it was just a luck of a draw that i got matched against those few toxic examples.
Everything correct except on quest rogue example u gave. Combo decks have a better chance to win vs control but its not a guarantee cause there are ways to disrupt combo decks. U cant disrupt quest rogue so every single slower deck will lose against it.
One thing is shudderwock being able to beat almost 70% of time vs big spell mage which is a particular control deck but quest rogue being able to beat EVERY CONTROL DECK out there isnt right.
Now aggro isnt easy specially vs an anti aggro deck BUT every single play is barely a decision making its auto pilot except maybe not overextending. Control decks require more decision making. Even combo decks require less decision as their win condition is a pre determined one. Nobody should feel entitled to say their archetype is better than others but if any could say it it would most likely make sense for control players to say so for the reasons i just described
Absolutely true. They whine everywhere about everything for three years. Blizzard clearly pushes control archetypes in last expansions because of them (just compare mech expansions, GvG and Boomsday). The duration of the game has increased threefold now and they're still unhappy. That's ridiculous.
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English is not my native language, so, with a high probability, mistakes were made.
It doesnt matter. From my expirience it was always easy for me to play control decks, like CW, pre-rotation control priest, handlock and stuff, never saw any difficulty in it. For some reason i had <20% winrate as midrange shaman in gadgetzan shamanstone era, a bit higher, but still low wr as pirate warrior, i played awful on aggro shaman after 4 mana 7-7 and rockbiter nerf. Im just bad at board game. Its easier for me to play control, even more easy to play some wierd otk decks, than midrange or aggro (except for LoE face shaman).
Even if control decks ARE more difficult, there is no reason to think that some "EASY" deck should be nerfed because it beats your "HARD" deck. It just doesnt work like that
On the current state of the game, the only superior players IMO are the ones playing Espionage Rogue or other meme decks.
The game is full of bullshit. Shamans have Shudernnaningans, or they can fill they board with crap and transform them in big legendaries, or deal 21+ damage to your face with Bloodlust, Priest can copy your cards and your deck over and over, Druids can generate more armour than Warriors, can perform a lot of combos or can spam the board with buffed crap, Rogues have their 4/4s or their Jade Bunnies, and so on.
Hurr durr aggro requires no skill hurr durr 10 board clears and "defile puzzles" mean I am so skilled hurr durr.
The skill level is deck dependent not by deck pace (Aggro/tempo/combo/control/value)
for example playing a malygos druid which is a combo deck is much more simple than playing APM priest which is very complicated combo, playing control warlock might be simpler than some aggro decks, aggro decks also have resource management, lethal timers, lethal finding, playing around board clears, MCT,spreading plague, tech options, trade vs face (much more than any control deck with the mind of clear the board 100% of the time is always the right play BTW).
People want to feel good about their 16K dust control decks and hate fast paced decks cause they cost less dust
just ignore those fools, play whatever is fun if winning is fun play those.. ATM nothing is too oppressive the meta is currently quite diverse all classes have some sort of viable deck, yes druid have a lot of stuff going on but you can target them with tech.. that's the good thing about HS is that you can always tech against something and if you can't just switch decks.. it's not the end of the world.
Lets face it, both control and combo decks are easier to play right now than they ever have been. The power level compensates for lack of skill somewhat, and the way they play out is far easier than it was in the past, with incredible draw tools compared to what we used in the past, and simple hand dumping to achieve the win condition.
The pinnacle of this game IMO were the two old warrior archetypes - old-school wallet control warrior in terms of resource management and then patron warrior in terms of maths and ability to manipulate the board to make the most of your combo. Continuing with the warrior class as the example I say the downturn started with Taunt/Quest Warrior - yes in theory it's a control deck but consider how easy it is to play in comparision, even if in general terms, it is not more powerful. You can extrapolate this to pretty much all modern combo/control decks across all classes - they've been dumbed down significantly.
The myth derived from early Magic the Gathering (1993-2000) where playing control was more difficult than playing aggro. You would simply have to be smarter to pilot a control deck thus newbies often played the cheap aggro decks and pro players often had the skills to play control.
In Hearthstone there are no real control decks. Just slow decks which can be confused. In fact there has probably only ever been one difficult Hearthstone deck to pilot (Pre-nerfed Patron Warrior) and all the rest are super easy to play.
The only control decks that take more skill than others are those that can't go "infinite" in some way, like old Freeze Mage. Resources are finite, and you have to win with them, or lose.
Right now, I think only Mind Blast Priest fits that bill. Maly Druid used to, but with Floop it has incredible leeway.
I will hold my opinion about aggro never actually changing in hs, but sadly I have to agree with the first part. Of course, this doesn't necessarily concern all decks out there, but this is a tendency which will continue in the future.
You mentioned Taunt Warrior, which can easily achieve its win-condition just by playing minions after minions. It doesn't require a strategy in advance - you either keep or mulligan the quest away depending on whether or not you face a fast deck. I can't deny, that we control warlocks also have it easy due to the fact of having various tools - but so does BSM regarding the board clears. In the past control mage could only rely on Blizzard, Flamestrike, which are really expensive and thus slow, and Frost Nova + Doomsayer i.e. 2-card combo (+ the useful spells from the respective expansion like Volcanic Potion). I remember Razapriest also falling into this category last hs year. They had 2 gigantic board clears (Psychic Scream, Dragonfire Potion), the minion equivalent of Hellfire (Duskbreaker), which can be found with Netherspite Historian and I'm only scratching the surface here. Not to mention the normal control lists, who ran 2 copies of those.
As for the combo part - Shudderwock is like the combo deck for youngsters, described perfectly by DiamondDM13. There isn't a specific set-up to consider - just play the pieces, survive and win. I want to add some combo druid decks here as well (except maybe standard Maly) and especially the wild equivalents, which profit greately from Juicy Psychmelon.
So yeah, the power level of some cards and their huge number contribute to this tendency a lot. And this will never change, since those cards give some decks the edge over others to win. If you want to be competitive on the ladder and handle fast/proactive strategies, you either have to have a really cheap and powerful AoE like Duskbreaker or Defile, or to draw your combo pieces ASAP (Juicy Psychmelon).
To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Control Decks. The complexity is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of the metagame most of the plays will go over a typical player's head. There's also Gul'dan's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into his characterisation- his personal philosophy draws heavily from Narodnaya Volya literature, for instance. Control player's understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these decks, to realise that they're not just powerful- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike control truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the depth in Jaina's existential catchphrase "Do not fear power... fear those who wield it!," which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev's Russian epic Fathers and Sons. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as the Control player genius wit unfolds itself on their screens in the form of flamestrike's animation. What fools.. how I pity them.
And yes, by the way, i DO have a Garrosh tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- and even then they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 legend ranks of my own (preferably lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid
This is wrong on so many levels you can't even understand.
It's neither more difficult nor superior.Just a different style.
The discussion hinges on the mirror matches, since Aggro vs Control...there's not really much room for debate. Control is far harder to play, without question. The aggro game plan is "play minions until their AOE turn, go face with everything."
So which takes more decision making, Control vs Control or Aggro vs Aggro? If it's equal, then the sum decision making favors Control as being more difficult overall.
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Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.
This is wrong on so many levels you can't even understand.
It's neither more difficult nor superior.Just a different style.
Ehm... control playstyle: Should I play a Deathcoil on that minion and trade this into that to play defile and clear the board (and save mana for heals) or keep resources for long terms and just play Twisting Nether?
Aggro playstyle: face face face face face face face me smorc me smorc me smorc me smorc leeeeroy jenkins. Fuck nerf BSM, it has too many AoEs...
I get reported because I insulted a person who created a thread about nerfing Water Elemental because it provided too many heals with Frost Lich Jaina (you know, it s water elemental the real issue, it s a 4 mana 3/6, TOO OP NERF IT). I couldn t be happier.
"The flow of time is always cruel... its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it... A thing that does not change with time is a memory of younger days..."
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I wanna runt about control players. Just to be clear, I have no hate for control decks, just like i dont have any hate for aggro, midrange or combo decks. Right now im a wild player who tinkers a lot with both meme and serious otk decks, this is my passion. Quite often i get beaten by aggro decks, but i have never created a tread like this one https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/223022-nerf-sonya-shadowdancer when im crying like "my combo requires 9 mana and im dying against %deckname% turn earlier!". And actually nobody does (so its not a tread "be like me"), except for control players. For some cosmic reason they think that their playstyle is superior and no deck should counter them. "Jade druids are impossible to beat as contol decks", "Quest rogue destroys control decks", "Exodia mage is unbeatable", blah-blah-blah. I get your frustration, i still remember how powerless you feel as freeze mage vs CW, i guess this is something you feel. Just except it and move on. There are decks that destroys slow decks and most of them are really fun, so people will play it. Control decks are equal to any other playstyle and something gonna win something and lose to something else. Rock, paper, scissors.
superior? no. more difficult to play? arguably.
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This is wrong on so many levels you can't even understand.
It's neither more difficult nor superior.Just a different style.
Just Another Legend Player#Kappa
Why is it wrong to have a different opinion? Also, why are all play styles of exactly the same difficulty/skill level?
Not superior but from my experience they are much nicer. Back in a day when i didn't auto-squelch people more often than not aggro players would spam emotes, roping when they have lethal, roping when they are losing etc. Just general BM. Priest players are exception, no matter what deck they play, they always BM.
Control Warriors, Warlock, midrange shaman, paladin etc. usually are just regular players who are trying to have a good time. For whatever reason aggro players and Priest players, especially priest players will do everything in their power to make experience worse for you. Not sure why.
Ofcourse there are exceptions to this, i'm just talking from my experience that doesn't mean that aggro players are bad people, perhaps it was just a luck of a draw that i got matched against those few toxic examples.
Everything correct except on quest rogue example u gave. Combo decks have a better chance to win vs control but its not a guarantee cause there are ways to disrupt combo decks. U cant disrupt quest rogue so every single slower deck will lose against it.
One thing is shudderwock being able to beat almost 70% of time vs big spell mage which is a particular control deck but quest rogue being able to beat EVERY CONTROL DECK out there isnt right.
Now aggro isnt easy specially vs an anti aggro deck BUT every single play is barely a decision making its auto pilot except maybe not overextending. Control decks require more decision making. Even combo decks require less decision as their win condition is a pre determined one. Nobody should feel entitled to say their archetype is better than others but if any could say it it would most likely make sense for control players to say so for the reasons i just described
The superior status of the glorious control master race is far beyond the mind of a dirty aggro peasant can understand. :P
Absolutely true. They whine everywhere about everything for three years. Blizzard clearly pushes control archetypes in last expansions because of them (just compare mech expansions, GvG and Boomsday). The duration of the game has increased threefold now and they're still unhappy. That's ridiculous.
English is not my native language, so, with a high probability, mistakes were made.
I actually have 2 priest decks (weasel and apm) and i didnt press emote button for like 2 years or so. Just dont understand why i should.
It doesnt matter. From my expirience it was always easy for me to play control decks, like CW, pre-rotation control priest, handlock and stuff, never saw any difficulty in it. For some reason i had <20% winrate as midrange shaman in gadgetzan shamanstone era, a bit higher, but still low wr as pirate warrior, i played awful on aggro shaman after 4 mana 7-7 and rockbiter nerf. Im just bad at board game. Its easier for me to play control, even more easy to play some wierd otk decks, than midrange or aggro (except for LoE face shaman).
Even if control decks ARE more difficult, there is no reason to think that some "EASY" deck should be nerfed because it beats your "HARD" deck. It just doesnt work like that
Damn right you are. Now go back in the closet and polish my shoes, you fealty peasant. I want to see them shine.
On the current state of the game, the only superior players IMO are the ones playing Espionage Rogue or other meme decks.
The game is full of bullshit. Shamans have Shudernnaningans, or they can fill they board with crap and transform them in big legendaries, or deal 21+ damage to your face with Bloodlust, Priest can copy your cards and your deck over and over, Druids can generate more armour than Warriors, can perform a lot of combos or can spam the board with buffed crap, Rogues have their 4/4s or their Jade Bunnies, and so on.
Hurr durr aggro requires no skill hurr durr 10 board clears and "defile puzzles" mean I am so skilled hurr durr.
The skill level is deck dependent not by deck pace (Aggro/tempo/combo/control/value)
for example playing a malygos druid which is a combo deck is much more simple than playing APM priest which is very complicated combo, playing control warlock might be simpler than some aggro decks, aggro decks also have resource management, lethal timers, lethal finding, playing around board clears, MCT,spreading plague, tech options, trade vs face (much more than any control deck with the mind of clear the board 100% of the time is always the right play BTW).
People want to feel good about their 16K dust control decks and hate fast paced decks cause they cost less dust
just ignore those fools, play whatever is fun if winning is fun play those.. ATM nothing is too oppressive the meta is currently quite diverse all classes have some sort of viable deck, yes druid have a lot of stuff going on but you can target them with tech.. that's the good thing about HS is that you can always tech against something and if you can't just switch decks.. it's not the end of the world.
Lets face it, both control and combo decks are easier to play right now than they ever have been. The power level compensates for lack of skill somewhat, and the way they play out is far easier than it was in the past, with incredible draw tools compared to what we used in the past, and simple hand dumping to achieve the win condition.
The pinnacle of this game IMO were the two old warrior archetypes - old-school wallet control warrior in terms of resource management and then patron warrior in terms of maths and ability to manipulate the board to make the most of your combo. Continuing with the warrior class as the example I say the downturn started with Taunt/Quest Warrior - yes in theory it's a control deck but consider how easy it is to play in comparision, even if in general terms, it is not more powerful. You can extrapolate this to pretty much all modern combo/control decks across all classes - they've been dumbed down significantly.
Aggro on the other hand has never really changed.
Can we stop whining about which decks are more difficult and just play what we enjoy the most?
The myth derived from early Magic the Gathering (1993-2000) where playing control was more difficult than playing aggro. You would simply have to be smarter to pilot a control deck thus newbies often played the cheap aggro decks and pro players often had the skills to play control.
In Hearthstone there are no real control decks. Just slow decks which can be confused. In fact there has probably only ever been one difficult Hearthstone deck to pilot (Pre-nerfed Patron Warrior) and all the rest are super easy to play.
In Hearthstone: Control players = Aggro players.
The only control decks that take more skill than others are those that can't go "infinite" in some way, like old Freeze Mage. Resources are finite, and you have to win with them, or lose.
Right now, I think only Mind Blast Priest fits that bill. Maly Druid used to, but with Floop it has incredible leeway.
I will hold my opinion about aggro never actually changing in hs, but sadly I have to agree with the first part. Of course, this doesn't necessarily concern all decks out there, but this is a tendency which will continue in the future.
You mentioned Taunt Warrior, which can easily achieve its win-condition just by playing minions after minions. It doesn't require a strategy in advance - you either keep or mulligan the quest away depending on whether or not you face a fast deck. I can't deny, that we control warlocks also have it easy due to the fact of having various tools - but so does BSM regarding the board clears. In the past control mage could only rely on Blizzard, Flamestrike, which are really expensive and thus slow, and Frost Nova + Doomsayer i.e. 2-card combo (+ the useful spells from the respective expansion like Volcanic Potion). I remember Razapriest also falling into this category last hs year. They had 2 gigantic board clears (Psychic Scream, Dragonfire Potion), the minion equivalent of Hellfire (Duskbreaker), which can be found with Netherspite Historian and I'm only scratching the surface here. Not to mention the normal control lists, who ran 2 copies of those.
As for the combo part - Shudderwock is like the combo deck for youngsters, described perfectly by DiamondDM13. There isn't a specific set-up to consider - just play the pieces, survive and win. I want to add some combo druid decks here as well (except maybe standard Maly) and especially the wild equivalents, which profit greately from Juicy Psychmelon.
So yeah, the power level of some cards and their huge number contribute to this tendency a lot. And this will never change, since those cards give some decks the edge over others to win. If you want to be competitive on the ladder and handle fast/proactive strategies, you either have to have a really cheap and powerful AoE like Duskbreaker or Defile, or to draw your combo pieces ASAP (Juicy Psychmelon).
To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Control Decks. The complexity is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of the metagame most of the plays will go over a typical player's head. There's also Gul'dan's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into his characterisation- his personal philosophy draws heavily from Narodnaya Volya literature, for instance. Control player's understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these decks, to realise that they're not just powerful- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike control truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the depth in Jaina's existential catchphrase "Do not fear power... fear those who wield it!," which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev's Russian epic Fathers and Sons. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as the Control player genius wit unfolds itself on their screens in the form of flamestrike's animation. What fools.. how I pity them.
And yes, by the way, i DO have a Garrosh tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- and even then they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 legend ranks of my own (preferably lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid
The discussion hinges on the mirror matches, since Aggro vs Control...there's not really much room for debate. Control is far harder to play, without question. The aggro game plan is "play minions until their AOE turn, go face with everything."
So which takes more decision making, Control vs Control or Aggro vs Aggro? If it's equal, then the sum decision making favors Control as being more difficult overall.
Kaladin's RoS Set Review
Join me at Out of Cards!
Ehm... control playstyle: Should I play a Deathcoil on that minion and trade this into that to play defile and clear the board (and save mana for heals) or keep resources for long terms and just play Twisting Nether?
Aggro playstyle: face face face face face face face me smorc me smorc me smorc me smorc leeeeroy jenkins. Fuck nerf BSM, it has too many AoEs...
I get reported because I insulted a person who created a thread about nerfing Water Elemental because it provided too many heals with Frost Lich Jaina (you know, it s water elemental the real issue, it s a 4 mana 3/6, TOO OP NERF IT). I couldn t be happier.
"The flow of time is always cruel... its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it... A thing that does not change with time is a memory of younger days..."