"LoE changes the meta all of the time and it's GREAT!"
Yeah, it's not true. Just noting where it's coming from.
I honestly don't understand your reply (may have something to do with that I'm not an native english speaker? dunno) But would love you to elaborate on that to know if you're giving support or mocking my comment really....
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There is nothing left if you can not has the right to bear your arms - werebear 2016-eternity campaign
"LoE changes the meta all of the time and it's GREAT!"
Yeah, it's not true. Just noting where it's coming from.
I honestly don't understand your reply (may have something to do with that I'm not an native english speaker? dunno) But would love you to elaborate on that to know if you're giving support or mocking my comment really....
Oh sorry. the first line is what those who defend the idea of regular changes tend to say. They came from games like League of Legends where regular changes happened and want the same here. I was mocking THEM in a way. After that, I basically agreed with you and answered your question of where such an idea came from.
I simply LOVE how everyone is whining about Yogg'Saron yet only 1 person has outlined what was going on on the board when Yogg dropped. The zoolock had:
A 2/2 buffer, a 1/1 deathrattle, a 1/3 taunt, a 2/4 token generator a 2/2 that GIVES YOU A CARD (in aggro, of all archetypes) and a 7/2 3drop that started as a 1/5 and can single handedly win the game if left unchecked. Thats 17 dmg on board by turn 5. If THATS not considered overpowered and broken, then I don't know what is ^^
Quit hating on Yogg, hate on the real cancers of this game.
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Level 60: All classes Golden Classes: Druid, Mage, Shaman, Paladin, Warrior Highest rank: Legend, 52 (EU, obviously) Best arena: 12-0
I simply LOVE how everyone is whining about Yogg'Saron yet only 1 person has outlined what was going on on the board when Yogg dropped. The zoolock had:
A 2/2 buffer, a 1/1 deathrattle, a 1/3 taunt, a 2/4 token generator a 2/2 that GIVES YOU A CARD (in aggro, of all archetypes) and a 7/2 3drop that started as a 1/5 and can single handedly win the game if left unchecked. Thats 17 dmg on board by turn 5. If THATS not considered overpowered and broken, then I don't know what is ^^
Quit hating on Yogg, hate on the real cancers of this game.
This is the key. That's how a good, aggro deck works; if it gets checked, it loses steam and gets beaten in mid/late.
The Druid player ONLY won thanks to a SINGLE card that delivered an obscene amount of RNG. After the match, the "winning" player felt so sorry that he stated that "he deserved to lose". 'nuff said.
I simply LOVE how everyone is whining about Yogg'Saron yet only 1 person has outlined what was going on on the board when Yogg dropped. The zoolock had:
A 2/2 buffer, a 1/1 deathrattle, a 1/3 taunt, a 2/4 token generator a 2/2 that GIVES YOU A CARD (in aggro, of all archetypes) and a 7/2 3drop that started as a 1/5 and can single handedly win the game if left unchecked. Thats 17 dmg on board by turn 5. If THATS not considered overpowered and broken, then I don't know what is ^^
Quit hating on Yogg, hate on the real cancers of this game.
This is the key. That's how a good, aggro deck works; if it gets checked, it loses steam and gets beaten in mid/late.
The Druid player ONLY won thanks to a SINGLE card that delivered an obscene amount of RNG. After the match, the "winning" player felt so sorry that he stated that "he deserved to lose". 'nuff said.
But that's the problem, see. Practically any early class drop (Mana Wyrm, Trogg, Councilman etc) can get out of control and single-handedly win games. You shouldn't simply lose or be sent so far behind by a simple 1drop.
Even so, it'sgenerally accepted that these decks work like this. Fine. I'll accept that, even if I am a more midrange-control oriented player. Where's my Damnation/Wrath of God/Supreme Verdict? (4 mana mass removal, destroy all creatures from MTG, Verdict even has a "Can't be countered" secondary effect so FU counterspell)? Why does every single mass removal in this game cost so much that makes them virtually unplayable? (With the exception of Twisting Nether, a class card)?
Blizzard has made an ample amount of well-designed, boderline broken 1drops and 2drops in this game. And people have accepted them. Is it THAT hard to accept a more control-oriented card that is on the same level of OP'ness? After all, if everyone's OP (aggro, midrange, control, combo), then noone's OP, correct?
That being said, I hate Yogg with a passion, it's just that, he's needed as a wincon in this meta full of zoolocks, shamans (of all variations), aggro warriors and midrange hunters.
the solution is simple, good quality hard removal, maelstrom storm is a good card, but it would be really good if only the 1 drops and 4 drops had 1 less health... Sadly, it was given to exactly the class that didn't needed boardwipes (with lightning storm and elemental destruction it has enough).
Now, IF priest had a deal 1 damage summon a random 1 drop spell...
In magic you can kill ANY minion with a 1 mana spell, ANY (barren hexproof wich is the keyword for the faerie dragon ability). and even so, there are 4 mana boardwipes, and 1 or 2 mana "target player sacrifice a creature" to get around the hexproof... etc etc, in a game where minions tend to not go beyond 4/5 (with only a couple of 6/6, 8/8 and 12/12 exceptions), why isn't this more common in HS, a game where droping 6/6 with taunt and divine shield, or dropping 3 animal companions are norm and hella bigger than magic's ones?
I love how everybody complains about yogg when the actual problem in the current meta is the lack of good aoe removal, when the only class that can counter a good zoo hand is warrior, and the rest rely on yogg , a 10 mana card for aoe clears. We have an amazing amount of minions at 4+ health for less than 4 mana and no aoe that deals that much consistently. Hell if this was wild whould you also complain about a lightbomb clearing such an overextended board? As of right the only decks playable are midrange and you complaim about the only propper aoe available for 8/9 classes.
Aggro is not a problem, highrolling is, and cards like Yogg are played almost with the sole purpose of highrolling.
HS is becoming a gamble which makes competitive HS a joke, I agree. I feel bad for the players who have put so much into this game because they promised a competitive game and don't deliver.
Token Druid's archetype: if you get the ramp and a good Fandral or Thaurissan you win vs anything. It is built around highrolling.
Dragon Warrior's archetype: if you draw on curve you don't need to think more than a 14 year old to win. Yeah, 14 year olds have a good chance to win vs good players in this silly game. It is also built to draw on curve and, as it were, highroll.
And now there's Barnes: 10% chance to win the game in a deck with just enough Barnes synergy, let alone decks with high Barnes synergy.
Pro players? More like clowns in Blizzard's circus.
HS is becoming a gamble which makes competitive HS a joke, I agree. I feel bad for the players who have put so much into this game because they promised a competitive game and don't deliver.
Did they ever? For what I recall the game was promoted as a casual game, then supported during it's development as such, and today's advertisement around the web call's it easy to learn and fun to play, the opposite of competitive lol.
I think is more about the people FORCING the game into a competitive escene when the devs themselves never intended it to be, but just were forced by the higher level chairmans to push the competitive aspect once some hardcorers and minmaxers decided that hearthstone wil be their first card game they will try to become pros, ignoring the fact that are more proper card games for that already, they instead took one of the most unreliable card games (in terms of gameplay) and pushed the competitive escene down the playerbase's throats and everybody accepted that reality (as always when a tiny bit of competitiveness is plausible, because people enjoy D*ck contests).
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There is nothing left if you can not has the right to bear your arms - werebear 2016-eternity campaign
Like any good spectator game, Hearthstone features many opportunities for risk-vs-reward decisions.
The warlock player in this example chose a very consistent, low-risk deck. Low-risk decks are slightly stronger than the average deck and perform very well when nothing out of the ordinary happens.
The druid player chose one of the riskiest decks possible in competitive play, and he was rewarded when something extraordinary happened.
If you think that's not great for a competitive game, you must not be aware of trends in the spectatorship of real sports. People love to see the completion of a Hail Mary pass. They love to root for the underdog and see him win. The only plays anyone EVER talks about after a game are the ones where something amazing happens.
If a zoolock curb-stomps a slow druid deck, no one gives it a second thought, and no one talks about it after the game because it's predictable and even boring. If there's anything that's worse for a competitive e-sport, it's that.
If you want a pro-level card game where unpredictable plays are actively discouraged, you should get into bridge. I'm not even kidding -- that's exactly what you're asking for, and it already exists.
HS is becoming a gamble which makes competitive HS a joke, I agree. I feel bad for the players who have put so much into this game because they promised a competitive game and don't deliver.
Did they ever? For what I recall the game was promoted as a casual game, then supported during it's development as such, and today's advertisement around the web call's it easy to learn and fun to play, the opposite of competitive lol.
I think is more about the people FORCING the game into a competitive escene when the devs themselves never intended it to be, but just were forced by the higher level chairmans to push the competitive aspect once some hardcorers and minmaxers decided that hearthstone wil be their first card game they will try to become pros, ignoring the fact that are more proper card games for that already, they instead took one of the most unreliable card games (in terms of gameplay) and pushed the competitive escene down the playerbase's throats and everybody accepted that reality (as always when a tiny bit of competitiveness is plausible, because people enjoy D*ck contests).
I like to work with facts here, I don't like telling stories.
If you want a pro-level card game where unpredictable plays are actively discouraged, you should get into bridge. I'm not even kidding -- that's exactly what you're asking for, and it already exists.
Nah, is called every single other card game with competitive tournaments. Consistency is the heart of YGO/MTG decks, the more consistent and effective your deck is the more you win, that's it. You don't go to a tournament even of small calliber (let's say.. 50 to 80 people) with a high variance deck and expect to win, you go with the consistent turn 4 kill deck you have been playing for 4 months straight against all the other meta decks and refinned your deck your sidedeck and in YGO case your extra deck.
Now, I'm happy with HS not being like that, it would be required to be rebuilt from scratchs to meet those requirements, so it's great it's a funny wacky full-of-randomness game.
I like to work with facts here, I don't like telling stories.
Okey, facts:
1) A game where your chance of drawing a 2 mana card and a 8 mana card is the same is not meant to be competitive. 2) A game that promotes only proactive play and hinders reactivity is not balanced for competitive play. 3) A game that has an extreme level of variance within it's cards effects is not meant to be competitive. 4) A playerbase that mocks on aggro and more specifically burn-aggro decks is NOT a competitive playerbase.
Card games by default have tons of RNG. All your removal/early game could be the bottom cards of your deck in one specific match, tough shit.
Nope, the only RNG I have evern PLAYED was the draw, and even then, deck building in all other games I've played let you play 3-ofs so you were able to modify to your advantage the drawing probability of cards, here, you are limited to 2ofs and 1ofs, making the draw a lot, and I mean, A LOT less reliable.
here, go to "probabilities" in these two examples of a magic deck:
A deck with that can use 4ofs each card, you can clearly see how probabilities for drawing the cards you need in your opening hand goes to 44% and the cards you want to see during the game at what turn goes down based on the number of copies:
Now, let's look at the same deck but with the rules of 1ofs or 2ofs max of HS, you can see the chances of drawing what you need got relegated to a pathetic 27% and you have the same chance of drawing something that you need NOW and something that you need later:
I see nobody repplies when I give exact examples of why HS as a competitive card game is a joke (as a casual funny card game is perfect imo)
Oh well, as expected. The only limitations this game has to be a fully competitive game are:
1) A panicking level of cards with RNG effects that make the game look more like LoL and less like chess.
2) The fact that the deck construction limits your draw porcentages so much by letting you add only up to 2 copies of a card, making the first turns practically impossible to draw perfectly (and this is pathetically "corrected" with letting you have a third of your deck in your hand... Horrible decision team5, just horrible...)
If people want to play HS competitively you should start pressing team5 into changing this stuff, but if you're like me, that plays this game 1 or 2 hrs after working 10hrs a day, please, let it be a casual game as it's now, this is a nice stress clearer, I don't need more stress in my daily life, and corner it to the weekends competitive matches playing Magic: the gathering.
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There is nothing left if you can not has the right to bear your arms - werebear 2016-eternity campaign
I see nobody repplies when I give exact examples of why HS as a competitive card game is a joke (as a casual funny card game is perfect imo)
My guess is that you get no replies because it's obvious to most people that Hearthstone was never intended to conform to your definition of "competitive."
It has always very explicitly been intended as a fun casual game and a spectator e-sport. It fits those roles quite nicely and does not need to be "competitive" in the way people are talking about in this thread, so I'm honestly mystified why this thread even exists. It's like saying "'Gone With the Wind' fails as an action movie, and here are a million reasons why."
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
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There is nothing left if you can not has the right to bear your arms - werebear 2016-eternity campaign
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
I simply LOVE how everyone is whining about Yogg'Saron yet only 1 person has outlined what was going on on the board when Yogg dropped. The zoolock had:
A 2/2 buffer, a 1/1 deathrattle, a 1/3 taunt, a 2/4 token generator a 2/2 that GIVES YOU A CARD (in aggro, of all archetypes) and a 7/2 3drop that started as a 1/5 and can single handedly win the game if left unchecked. Thats 17 dmg on board by turn 5. If THATS not considered overpowered and broken, then I don't know what is ^^
Quit hating on Yogg, hate on the real cancers of this game.
Level 60: All classes
Golden Classes: Druid, Mage, Shaman, Paladin, Warrior
Highest rank: Legend, 52 (EU, obviously)
Best arena: 12-0
Great art can never be created without great suffering.
Level 60: All classes
Golden Classes: Druid, Mage, Shaman, Paladin, Warrior
Highest rank: Legend, 52 (EU, obviously)
Best arena: 12-0
the solution is simple, good quality hard removal, maelstrom storm is a good card, but it would be really good if only the 1 drops and 4 drops had 1 less health... Sadly, it was given to exactly the class that didn't needed boardwipes (with lightning storm and elemental destruction it has enough).
Now, IF priest had a deal 1 damage summon a random 1 drop spell...
In magic you can kill ANY minion with a 1 mana spell, ANY (barren hexproof wich is the keyword for the faerie dragon ability). and even so, there are 4 mana boardwipes, and 1 or 2 mana "target player sacrifice a creature" to get around the hexproof... etc etc, in a game where minions tend to not go beyond 4/5 (with only a couple of 6/6, 8/8 and 12/12 exceptions), why isn't this more common in HS, a game where droping 6/6 with taunt and divine shield, or dropping 3 animal companions are norm and hella bigger than magic's ones?
There is nothing left if you can not has the right to bear your arms - werebear 2016-eternity campaign
Yes, competetive HS was always a bit of a joke, but not because of Yogg!
-He is pretty slow
-He is usally bad when ahead on the board.
-He is very risky to play when on low health.
-He is dangerous to play close to fatigue.
-He might save an unvinnable game, but he usually doesn't...
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
I love how everybody complains about yogg when the actual problem in the current meta is the lack of good aoe removal, when the only class that can counter a good zoo hand is warrior, and the rest rely on yogg , a 10 mana card for aoe clears. We have an amazing amount of minions at 4+ health for less than 4 mana and no aoe that deals that much consistently. Hell if this was wild whould you also complain about a lightbomb clearing such an overextended board? As of right the only decks playable are midrange and you complaim about the only propper aoe available for 8/9 classes.
Aggro is not a problem, highrolling is, and cards like Yogg are played almost with the sole purpose of highrolling.
HS is becoming a gamble which makes competitive HS a joke, I agree. I feel bad for the players who have put so much into this game because they promised a competitive game and don't deliver.
Token Druid's archetype: if you get the ramp and a good Fandral or Thaurissan you win vs anything. It is built around highrolling.
Dragon Warrior's archetype: if you draw on curve you don't need to think more than a 14 year old to win. Yeah, 14 year olds have a good chance to win vs good players in this silly game. It is also built to draw on curve and, as it were, highroll.
And now there's Barnes: 10% chance to win the game in a deck with just enough Barnes synergy, let alone decks with high Barnes synergy.
Pro players? More like clowns in Blizzard's circus.
Did they ever? For what I recall the game was promoted as a casual game, then supported during it's development as such, and today's advertisement around the web call's it easy to learn and fun to play, the opposite of competitive lol.
I think is more about the people FORCING the game into a competitive escene when the devs themselves never intended it to be, but just were forced by the higher level chairmans to push the competitive aspect once some hardcorers and minmaxers decided that hearthstone wil be their first card game they will try to become pros, ignoring the fact that are more proper card games for that already, they instead took one of the most unreliable card games (in terms of gameplay) and pushed the competitive escene down the playerbase's throats and everybody accepted that reality (as always when a tiny bit of competitiveness is plausible, because people enjoy D*ck contests).
There is nothing left if you can not has the right to bear your arms - werebear 2016-eternity campaign
Like any good spectator game, Hearthstone features many opportunities for risk-vs-reward decisions.
The warlock player in this example chose a very consistent, low-risk deck. Low-risk decks are slightly stronger than the average deck and perform very well when nothing out of the ordinary happens.
The druid player chose one of the riskiest decks possible in competitive play, and he was rewarded when something extraordinary happened.
If you think that's not great for a competitive game, you must not be aware of trends in the spectatorship of real sports. People love to see the completion of a Hail Mary pass. They love to root for the underdog and see him win. The only plays anyone EVER talks about after a game are the ones where something amazing happens.
If a zoolock curb-stomps a slow druid deck, no one gives it a second thought, and no one talks about it after the game because it's predictable and even boring. If there's anything that's worse for a competitive e-sport, it's that.
If you want a pro-level card game where unpredictable plays are actively discouraged, you should get into bridge. I'm not even kidding -- that's exactly what you're asking for, and it already exists.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Now, I'm happy with HS not being like that, it would be required to be rebuilt from scratchs to meet those requirements, so it's great it's a funny wacky full-of-randomness game.
There is nothing left if you can not has the right to bear your arms - werebear 2016-eternity campaign
1) A game where your chance of drawing a 2 mana card and a 8 mana card is the same is not meant to be competitive.
2) A game that promotes only proactive play and hinders reactivity is not balanced for competitive play.
3) A game that has an extreme level of variance within it's cards effects is not meant to be competitive.
4) A playerbase that mocks on aggro and more specifically burn-aggro decks is NOT a competitive playerbase.
There is nothing left if you can not has the right to bear your arms - werebear 2016-eternity campaign
here, go to "probabilities" in these two examples of a magic deck:
A deck with that can use 4ofs each card, you can clearly see how probabilities for drawing the cards you need in your opening hand goes to 44% and the cards you want to see during the game at what turn goes down based on the number of copies:
http://deckstats.net/deck-10958530-4ae7df3a676ac314ca1fe8aa80c480a2.html
Now, let's look at the same deck but with the rules of 1ofs or 2ofs max of HS, you can see the chances of drawing what you need got relegated to a pathetic 27% and you have the same chance of drawing something that you need NOW and something that you need later:
http://deckstats.net/deck-10958546-6658aa5fc97143c4b7a816be3a7ff4a5.html
There is nothing left if you can not has the right to bear your arms - werebear 2016-eternity campaign
If it wasn't RNG it would be Aderral or Steroids. I think it's fun.
every game depend on perfect draw, rng and matchup. Skill only 10 % for decision making. Don't cry when loses to bad rng.
I see nobody repplies when I give exact examples of why HS as a competitive card game is a joke (as a casual funny card game is perfect imo)
Oh well, as expected. The only limitations this game has to be a fully competitive game are:
1) A panicking level of cards with RNG effects that make the game look more like LoL and less like chess.
2) The fact that the deck construction limits your draw porcentages so much by letting you add only up to 2 copies of a card, making the first turns practically impossible to draw perfectly (and this is pathetically "corrected" with letting you have a third of your deck in your hand... Horrible decision team5, just horrible...)
If people want to play HS competitively you should start pressing team5 into changing this stuff, but if you're like me, that plays this game 1 or 2 hrs after working 10hrs a day, please, let it be a casual game as it's now, this is a nice stress clearer, I don't need more stress in my daily life, and corner it to the weekends competitive matches playing Magic: the gathering.
There is nothing left if you can not has the right to bear your arms - werebear 2016-eternity campaign
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland