Im not legend 3 times but 8+ , 3 times i reached top 100+ and thats because i take breaks from the game. Since renolock is one of my main decks and im rank 1 atm with it and pushing for legend , i can say that i cant remember the last time i lost hand advantage because i was forced to play early cards for tempo basically even if you fall a bit behind on hand advantage you can still spam tap for the rest of turns and you will catchup in no time.
As for this combo we will need to wait for the new meta to see where it will be usefull but just for the sake of it lets see where it would be usefull now:
1. Secretdins , this deck has no reach therefore the combo is absolutely safe , it can be a game ender tbh because you cast it EXACTLY after challenger is summoned , you attack lets say with a minion to proc noble then BOOM goodbuy secretdin , if you wait one more turn for it then that may actually lose the game.
2. Druids , druids never pressure you enough until the end and you will not be severely behind on hp and druid can drop very big threats , casting it one turn earlier will allow you to prepare on turn 8 for the combo on turn 9 , thats actually a situation where one mana is the difference between life and death
3. Zoo , same principle apply here if for some reason the zoo manage to take over with giants and stuff like that , casting nether earlier is still a life saver and game ender
Saying that situations where i need to use this combo life is a issue is a bad argument because hearthstone does not work like that , opponent does not make a continuous push , first you trade then someone is ahead out of all those trades and then he push for win and this is when you start to lose life , twisting nether offers you the chance to make up for all those bad trades and casting it earlier can save you from death and what can turn the tempo of the field like this will most likely win you the game aswell against all these decks. Also opponent will not always have enough reach to kill you.
Now think that along with all the above you drop 1-2 titans aswell and taunts on the next turn and tell me if thats not a winning play.
There is a fair point that clearing on turn 7 is sometimes the difference. But I still think you are ignoring some crucial factors. The first being that warlock has two other extremely powerful board clear spells. And based on the current meta, I think you are also a bit optimistic.
1: It is true that they often don't have reach. But on turn 7, there is a reasonable chance that you are going to get hit with boom bots. And you still give them initiative to put up another board, which you still have to answer.
2: With innervates, thaurrisan, and the massive number of ways druid can deal damage, I don't see this one working all that well. The issue with druid isn't that they build big boards, it is that they can deal a ton of damage with a small board. So you once again, still give them initiative. And if you aren't at over 15 life before using the combo (and losing 8), there are a ton of ways druid can kill you even without mana cheating.
3: Against some zoo builds, sure. But I know I play leeroy in my zoo, as do a lot of other high level players. Even with just doomguards/peddlers zoo can manage modest burst, so you're once again going to have to be over 15 life or so to reliably not die losing 8. And the leeroy version of zoo has a very good chance of killing you after you clear.
If you want to convince people that cho'gall is good, you should put a bit more attention on the other spells that can combo with it, not just the twisting nether/doom board clear.
Is drboom op or not? if you agree then do you believe that the bots worth more than the spell you will be able to play with chogall? Tbh chogall + doom will be indeed a sick combo because the draw power will potentially allow you to draw into molten giants and reno and so much draw power 3 turns early is CRAZY.
The only thing that keeps chogall from being op is that warlock is one of the worst class for non-boardclear spells.
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Saying RNG isn't detracting from skill in hearthstone, won't convince anyone it's a good idea. It just shows your too stupid to understand the basics principles of good game design.
Chogall is not broken, it gives you one free spell, and even the spell is not truly free. You can't really compare the value of the spell to boom bots, as the spell actually uses a card, where the boom bots are summoned.
You've been quite arrogant and boastful in this thread mr user_214914 but I somehow agree with you on the part that anything in the game that allows you to cast something for FREE (for health cost in this case) has the potential to be broken somehow because you'll gain a massive tempo swing at some point.
A card like Fist of Jaraxxus is not in the meta right now but I'm pretty sure one day it will.
Cho'gall is not that incredible given the current Warlock spells but it has the potential to be.
Im not legend 3 times but 8+ , 3 times i reached top 100+ and thats because i take breaks from the game. Since renolock is one of my main decks and im rank 1 atm with it and pushing for legend , i can say that i cant remember the last time i lost hand advantage because i was forced to play early cards for tempo basically even if you fall a bit behind on hand advantage you can still spam tap for the rest of turns and you will catchup in no time.
As for this combo we will need to wait for the new meta to see where it will be usefull but just for the sake of it lets see where it would be usefull now:
1. Secretdins , this deck has no reach therefore the combo is absolutely safe , it can be a game ender tbh because you cast it EXACTLY after challenger is summoned , you attack lets say with a minion to proc noble then BOOM goodbuy secretdin , if you wait one more turn for it then that may actually lose the game.
2. Druids , druids never pressure you enough until the end and you will not be severely behind on hp and druid can drop very big threats , casting it one turn earlier will allow you to prepare on turn 8 for the combo on turn 9 , thats actually a situation where one mana is the difference between life and death
3. Zoo , same principle apply here if for some reason the zoo manage to take over with giants and stuff like that , casting nether earlier is still a life saver and game ender
Saying that situations where i need to use this combo life is a issue is a bad argument because hearthstone does not work like that , opponent does not make a continuous push , first you trade then someone is ahead out of all those trades and then he push for win and this is when you start to lose life , twisting nether offers you the chance to make up for all those bad trades and casting it earlier can save you from death and what can turn the tempo of the field like this will most likely win you the game aswell against all these decks. Also opponent will not always have enough reach to kill you.
Now think that along with all the above you drop 1-2 titans aswell and taunts on the next turn and tell me if thats not a winning play.
There is a fair point that clearing on turn 7 is sometimes the difference. But I still think you are ignoring some crucial factors. The first being that warlock has two other extremely powerful board clear spells. And based on the current meta, I think you are also a bit optimistic.
1: It is true that they often don't have reach. But on turn 7, there is a reasonable chance that you are going to get hit with boom bots. And you still give them initiative to put up another board, which you still have to answer.
2: With innervates, thaurrisan, and the massive number of ways druid can deal damage, I don't see this one working all that well. The issue with druid isn't that they build big boards, it is that they can deal a ton of damage with a small board. So you once again, still give them initiative. And if you aren't at over 15 life before using the combo (and losing 8), there are a ton of ways druid can kill you even without mana cheating.
3: Against some zoo builds, sure. But I know I play leeroy in my zoo, as do a lot of other high level players. Even with just doomguards/peddlers zoo can manage modest burst, so you're once again going to have to be over 15 life or so to reliably not die losing 8. And the leeroy version of zoo has a very good chance of killing you after you clear.
If you want to convince people that cho'gall is good, you should put a bit more attention on the other spells that can combo with it, not just the twisting nether/doom board clear.
Do you understand though that if you dont finish me off the next turn you lose the game? surely as zoo and paladin and i believe with druid aswell but that also depend on different factors , if i have titans along with it and you dont have the reach then its over for you and having the reach availiable i believe should not occur more than 50% of the time but i havent calculated i think its legit though and i believe it should be even less than 50% of the time , giving the initiative its ok with 8 mana availiable no threat is big enough for reno excpept tirion perhaps but then again its all about luck , with this combo you can turn a losing game into a coinflip or in some cases in a certain victory but i never said the combo is op , my thread says that chogall is op and i strong believe that , the combo is among the many reasons chogall is op.
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Cho'Gall is pretty decent for everything EXCEPT the stupid twisting nether/doom combo people keep talking about. He's not OP, but he is playable and may enable enough new cards to be used to make an actual difference in the meta (or at least the common warlock archetypes.)
But not because of Twisting Nether. There are many better cards to clear a board than that - this would be foolish. The reason Twisting Nether isn't played (except in Renolock) is because clearing the board and THEN DOING NOTHING is usually a bad play. You then have to hope your opponent can't capitalize on the fact that you also have an empty board, and they have full mana to work with. Sometimes it works, but that's a big "if" to ask of anyone. By turn 7, even control decks run tools that can aggressively take advantage of that.
Basically, it might be good against the kind of hyper-aggro decks that empty their hands by turn 7 and can't do squat, but anything midrange and up will eat you alive. Cho and something ELSE however...
...but this is just repeating what so many other people already have
The only thing that keeps chogall from being op is that warlock is one of the worst class for non-boardclear spells.
man , i had totally forgot bane of doom thats another great spell right there.
Chogall has no reason to be worse than drboom in a control lock where the value of each card when it comes to hand advantage is less that what it would be on a aggro deck.
Can the spell be stronger or at least equal to the boom bots? if the answer is yes and you think drboom is op then chogall is op aswell.
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its funny how people value 8 life more than 1 mana. you win games by outtempo and locking your opponent and not by having more life than him unless he play face hunter or something but in this case you wont obviously need to do this combo , this combo will be against swarm decks or controldecks (where you want to drop your moltens because you never lose enough hp) and in that case 1mana>>>>>>>>>>8life , coin effect is one of the strongest effects in the game and thats why malygos rogue is back from the grave because it got a coin effect card and now it can even consistently make it to top 100 legend while before it was a bad deck who none played. The opness of chogall comes from the fact that it can combo with so many things and all together create the op effect.
Well you have a small point when it comes to Health vs mana, true here. Yes cho gall could save you the day but then there will be many situation against decks with burst where chogall is nothing but a dead card in hand. Loosing 8 health and then having 3 mana spare for an imp gangboss or earthenring (5 health lost) may just put you into combo/ grommash / pyro / fireball / Killcommand range more often then you want to sure occasionally it could win a game (especially if you can reno the turn after) But honestly if youre in a situation where you have to use chogall + twisting nether or stuff like this (even the card draw) and be this wasteful with your ressources your probably also backed into a corner where loosing that much life could be quite deadly.
We will have to see how it plays out ... maybe its good a gainst zoo type decks without burst potential and lowering your health brings you into double molten + sunfury range WHILE clearing the board... in that case yeah the combo is good but against any deck with burst its probably a dead card and im doubtful that being an almost dead card in some matchups will weigh up the occasional win against the zooey type.
Chogall himself is not a dead card since it can combo with many cards against many type of decks , i wouldnt consider him a tech if thats you mean but a solid card exactly like drboom is , chogall has the potential to be better , there are many times where you drop drboom and you wish you could clear the board along with it and then opponent use his creatures to destroy your drboom or evne finishing you off and its hard to apply pressure in that case or take back the field. The combo with netheer yes has the potential to win some specific matchups but the cards itself are far from dead.
It teach you how to reach the high legend bracket by understanding theory and applying practical advice. Written by a high legend player and professional coach.
its funny how people value 8 life more than 1 mana. you win games by outtempo and locking your opponent and not by having more life than him unless he play face hunter or something but in this case you wont obviously need to do this combo , this combo will be against swarm decks or controldecks (where you want to drop your moltens because you never lose enough hp) and in that case 1mana>>>>>>>>>>8life , coin effect is one of the strongest effects in the game and thats why malygos rogue is back from the grave because it got a coin effect card and now it can even consistently make it to top 100 legend while before it was a bad deck who none played. The opness of chogall comes from the fact that it can combo with so many things and all together create the op effect.
If you value 8 life over 1 mana then where's your deck with two Pit Lords? Why did anyone run Antique Healbot? Shouldn't they play a higher value card for 5 mana instead of wasting all that mana on 8 life?
The point I'm trying to make is that there are some situations where you're going to value health more and other times you'll value mana more. You can't make blanket statements that it's always better to sacrifice the 1 mana for 8 health, especially in a class that lowers its health so fast like warlock. So many classes can burst you down from your 10 health that you're bringing yourself to just to get Molten Giant out. Also, you haven't addressed the fact that Cho plus Nether is a two card combo. Such a waste... I think people would use this combo only in extremely desperate times (maybe 1-20 use of Cho at best).
forgot to add that it combos with doom aswell , its funny how everyone thinks that im a troll , just wait until the card is released and you will be surprised by your lack of understanding of this game.
Doom would be worse than Twisting Nether even as a 6 mana card. I seriously doubt you being a legend player.
hmmmmm chogall will be a must legendary especially for decks like reno , chogall + free siphon soul? chogall + free twisting nether? this card will be way too op.
So, Cho + Twisting nether, eh?
Let's see....
Twisting Nether is 8 Mana.
Cho + Twisting Nether is 7 Mana + -8HP. So, to save 1 (ONE, Eins) mana, you just paid 8 (Eight, Acht) health.
AND you lost the minion you put on the board for it.
So, playing Cho + Twisting Nether cost you 7 mana, -8 health, and 2 cards.
Congratulations! You will make Legend for sure if you play like this!
I laughed soo hard at this! :D
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I am not a Mage player, just thought my avatar would go with my name.
'How many Blizzard employees do you need to fix a lamp? It does not matter, because they cannot balance the ladder.'
hmmmmm chogall will be a must legendary especially for decks like reno , chogall + free siphon soul? chogall + free twisting nether? this card will be way too op.
So, Cho + Twisting nether, eh?
Let's see....
Twisting Nether is 8 Mana.
Cho + Twisting Nether is 7 Mana + -8HP. So, to save 1 (ONE, Eins) mana, you just paid 8 (Eight, Acht) health.
AND you lost the minion you put on the board for it.
So, playing Cho + Twisting Nether cost you 7 mana, -8 health, and 2 cards.
Congratulations! You will make Legend for sure if you play like this!
Let's all start saying what 1 and 8 are in your language!
its funny how people value 8 life more than 1 mana. you win games by outtempo and locking your opponent and not by having more life than him unless he play face hunter or something but in this case you wont obviously need to do this combo , this combo will be against swarm decks or controldecks (where you want to drop your moltens because you never lose enough hp) and in that case 1mana>>>>>>>>>>8life , coin effect is one of the strongest effects in the game and thats why malygos rogue is back from the grave because it got a coin effect card and now it can even consistently make it to top 100 legend while before it was a bad deck who none played. The opness of chogall comes from the fact that it can combo with so many things and all together create the op effect.
If you value 8 life over 1 mana then where's your deck with two Pit Lords? Why did anyone run Antique Healbot? Shouldn't they play a higher value card for 5 mana instead of wasting all that mana on 8 life?
The point I'm trying to make is that there are some situations where you're going to value health more and other times you'll value mana more. You can't make blanket statements that it's always better to sacrifice the 1 mana for 8 health, especially in a class that lowers its health so fast like warlock. So many classes can burst you down from your 10 health that you're bringing yourself to just to get Molten Giant out. Also, you haven't addressed the fact that Cho plus Nether is a two card combo. Such a waste... I think people would use this combo only in extremely desperate times (maybe 1-20 use of Cho at best).
Pit lord does not offer you one mana as far as im concerned but a body which you have to compare to another great 4 costs and locks have plenty , healbot is not a mere +8 heal but a 3/3 body aswell which contributes a ton to the tempo that you dont aim it to play on 5th turn but later on unless its neccesary , i never said that healbot is useless but instead i made a comparison , is wild growth a worse card than healbot? the card who is worse might still be usefull.
Well , i will say it for 5934839494th time , nether+chogall is one of the many combos you can pull and can win games against swarm type decks like secretdin or zoo and that alone especially in the new nonpersistent minion meta makes it a decent combo, if you add all the possible combos together and the fact that each card individually is not useless then that creates the opness of chogall. If i had to rank the combo from best to worse i would say:
1. Choggall + siphon soul (SICK COMBO)
2. Choggal + shadowflame (flamestrike for 7 yo or less if you have another minion pretty sick too)
3. Choggal + implosion/bane of doom (great tempo play who can potentially mimic or be stronger than drboom)
4. Choggal + doom ( this can actually be the best combo but it depends how it will develop , it has ton of potential and can end up pretty broken)
5. Choggal + hellfire/demonwrath (good tempo play)
6. Choggal + dark bargain ( it has potential to be even better)
7. Choggal + twisting nether (despite i rank it last it is still decent combo who can win lost games against the proper decktypes)
Are these spells not enough? we already count like 7 spells , secretdins play 2 secretkeepers with 6 secrets and combo them just fine so i believe choggall will always have a spell to do something especially in a control lock where you draw like mad.
Are these spells not already play or useless without combo? NO , renolocks play all of those spells except bargain and bane
My predictions are that choggall will be the perfect replacement for drboom and bane of doom will be a fine replacement for the lack of so many 5 costs.
It teach you how to reach the high legend bracket by understanding theory and applying practical advice. Written by a high legend player and professional coach.
Chogall + dark bomb = 7/7 fire elemental
Chogall + imp-losion or bane of doom = dr.boom
chogall + shadowflame = board clear
Chogall + siphon soul = super BGH
chogall + darkbargin = mini deathwing
The only thing that keeps chogall from being op is that warlock is one of the worst class for non-boardclear spells.
Saying RNG isn't detracting from skill in hearthstone, won't convince anyone it's a good idea. It just shows your too stupid to understand the basics principles of good game design.
Cho'Gall is way too OP he's like literally everywhere in the meta right now and the Cho'Gall deck beats everything. Blizz pls nerf!!!!
/s
Chogall is not broken, it gives you one free spell, and even the spell is not truly free. You can't really compare the value of the spell to boom bots, as the spell actually uses a card, where the boom bots are summoned.
You've been quite arrogant and boastful in this thread mr user_214914 but I somehow agree with you on the part that anything in the game that allows you to cast something for FREE (for health cost in this case) has the potential to be broken somehow because you'll gain a massive tempo swing at some point.
A card like Fist of Jaraxxus is not in the meta right now but I'm pretty sure one day it will.
Cho'gall is not that incredible given the current Warlock spells but it has the potential to be.
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Cho'Gall is pretty decent for everything EXCEPT the stupid twisting nether/doom combo people keep talking about. He's not OP, but he is playable and may enable enough new cards to be used to make an actual difference in the meta (or at least the common warlock archetypes.)
But not because of Twisting Nether. There are many better cards to clear a board than that - this would be foolish. The reason Twisting Nether isn't played (except in Renolock) is because clearing the board and THEN DOING NOTHING is usually a bad play. You then have to hope your opponent can't capitalize on the fact that you also have an empty board, and they have full mana to work with. Sometimes it works, but that's a big "if" to ask of anyone. By turn 7, even control decks run tools that can aggressively take advantage of that.
Basically, it might be good against the kind of hyper-aggro decks that empty their hands by turn 7 and can't do squat, but anything midrange and up will eat you alive. Cho and something ELSE however...
...but this is just repeating what so many other people already have
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It teach you how to reach the high legend bracket by understanding theory and applying practical advice. Written by a high legend player and professional coach.
Best book on the web, read now! -> https://www.amazon.com/Hearthstone-Advanced-Tactics-Depth-Strategy-ebook/dp/B079FD2GW8/ref=sr_1_8?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1517733720&sr=1-8&keywords=hearthstone
It teach you how to reach the high legend bracket by understanding theory and applying practical advice. Written by a high legend player and professional coach.
Cho'Gall basically gives you a war golem but allows you to play a spell to help control the board so you don't get out valued or out tempo'd.
I am not a Mage player, just thought my avatar would go with my name.
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Check out my homebrewn Paladin deck.
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It teach you how to reach the high legend bracket by understanding theory and applying practical advice. Written by a high legend player and professional coach.
This is unfortunate that no one caught this earlier, but we have a thread on the Cho'Gall card over here: http://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/130344-new-warlock-legendary-chogall
Please use that for any discussion of this card. Closing this.
CLOSED.
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