Hearthpwn

feiry Quote from alexbroxman >>

So I recently saw the upcoming balance changes and holy shit are they bad. Let me explain.

There is one problem with hearthstone: deck diversity. 99% of people that play this game play it for fun and if there's exactly 1 deck you should be playing to win and everything else loses to it you're not having fun. That deck was jade druid. Not ramp, or token, those are powerful decks sure but they have counters, they don't lower deck diversity.

The jade mechanic is something that looks cool on paper, but it is too disruptive to be healthy for the game. Actually let me be more specific, the jade DRUID mechanic is disruptive, or have you ever heard someone say that jade shaman or jade rogue is OP? If you think what the druid flavor is it's either playing big things earlier, which means a bad early game, very good midgame and good lategame or playing many things and buffing them, which is very good in the early game and worse and worse later on. Because the normal jade rogue and jade shaman fall into the midrange category if jade druid were a midrange deck it'd be cool, new options for druid, not disruptive at all. However...

There is one problem with jade druid: Jade Idol. This card should have never gone past initial design stages. Infinite value in an otherwise midrange deck is not ok. Infinite value is not disruptive on itself (look at dead man's hand or dreadsteed) but the cheap easy scalating way of jade idol is broken as fuck. Jade shouldn't be able to go infinite, it's nice to extend it with elemental discovery or bouncing back jade generators, that actually is a clever and balanced way of taking advantage of the jade mechanic. Having nailed the problem to one card here comes the time to nerf it.

Firstly the general idea of jade idol is very good. You either get tempo now or you get a lot of value later. That's great but it shouldn't be infinite value later so I'll suggest what many others have pointed out before. Make it shuffle a different card into your deck that can only summon the jade golem. If it's still broken reduce the amount of cards shuffled to 2 or up their mana cost.

But what did blizzard do instead? Change its iconic cards in the worst way possible.

INNERVATE

Oh boy the worst nerf of the bunch. Have you ever heard someone say that innervate was broken before jade was introduced? No, in fact it was a fun card to play and to play against. It was druid's identity. I play wild, a lot of wild, and I also play a lot of druid. One of my favourite decks is astral communion druid. Well guess I'm not playing astral communion ever again on turn one, thanks blizzard. When only jade is broken why do you decide to nerf ALL druid decks by HALVING the effect of an iconic card? Just think about it with this example: Oh ragnaros is played a lot so instead of moving it to the hall of fame it's going to be an 8 mana 4/4 that deals 4 damage. Brilliant idea, I guess it's not confusing to new players... 

FIERY WAR AXE

Oh I guess warrior doesn't have a weapon now. Just think about it, if you aren't playing pirates and you're not playing enrage what weapon are you going to put in your deck? This one is pretty bad and once again if you REALLY wanted to nerf it, like the problem with warrior wasn't pirates you know, well ok set it's attack to 2. Don't come at me with this "oh but if you only change the mana cost it's the same card." Maybe that's true for a card that I play for its effect but I play it for the tempo. If reno jackson costed 7 it's still essentially the same card but if totem golem costs 3 it sucks ass.

HEX

Why was this card nerfed exactly? Like do they have someone working on "changing iconic cards for no reason" or what? Sure the card is still good I'd say but nerfs have to be necessary and this one wasn't.

MURLOC WARLEADER

Murlocs don't have health.

Murlocs needed cards that made them more durable

If murlocs are too good now, they weren't on the classic set so how about nerfing some of the new murlocs that aren't iconic to the game and nobody really cards if they're changed?

SPREADING PLAGUE

Wow they nerfed a new card whaaaaaaat? That's amazing. How many old decks will I be able to play if they nerf this card? All of them, hey nice see what I mean.

One last thing, I wanted to make pretty clear why I don't like old cards getting changed. The wild format is about 2 things.

1. Playing your old decks and having fun playing with old cards.

2. Finding new wacky synergies between new and old cards.

If you change a new card both points remain undamaged but if you change a BASIC card you obliterate point one. The clearest example of this is defile killing dreadsteed but this is now next level.

That's about it, if there's something you disagree on please feel free to comment and I'll reply as best as I can.

 don't know why blizzard is so relucant to nerf jades..

2 nerf cycles no nerf to jade idol.. why though??

that card is the problem cardand geist is a bad solution.

they think they can make a deck op as long as there is a tech card against it.. and it's not right..

Quote from DoubleSummon >>

 don't know why blizzard is so relucant to nerf jades..

2 nerf cycles no nerf to jade idol.. why though??

Quote from DoubleSummon >>

 don't know why blizzard is so relucant to nerf jades..

2 nerf cycles no nerf to jade idol.. why though??

Quote from robert_fanr >>

Quote from DoubleSummon >>

 don't know why blizzard is so relucant to nerf jades..

2 nerf cycles no nerf to jade idol.. why though??

 Because jades are gonna rotate soon .

It's the same reason they didn't nerf Trogg or Golem .

In 2018 they will go to wild . Wild decks are supposed to be more powerful than standard anyway .

Quote from GibreelFurious >>

As I see it, the Murloc Warleader nerf is an indirect nerf to finja and to the ineffectiveness of the equality/pyromancer combo. 

Yeah, because Finja is just dominating the meta. 

I still think they nerfed murlocs because they are sour about the Lich King.

UI is still a problem card. Because it is in Druid and you can ramp early let's assume you play it on turn seven. You are summoning a five mana minion and dealing five damage on turn seven. Sounds like Firelands Portal if you ask me, which is already a good card. But it's also going to draw you five cards and gain you five armor...seems good for a turn seven play.

The real problem with UI is that it's a druid card. Put it in a different class like warlock, make it gain health instead of armor and summon a demon instead of a tree and you've got yourself a pretty good card that people aren't going to complain about because it isn't hitting the board until turn ten, and the draw five will probably overdraw a warlock. 

remember why jade not popular last exp?
because it's the way too slow
It actually Choose one: gain mana ahead or draw cards.
Now UI combine those effect

People lose to it because the just ramp up and get 5 turn ahead with zero shit to give.
Goodjob T5

It's not about how often you play UI
You just need to have that card and it's change your play style
UI is an insurance for jade druid player that they can't run out of stream even if they ramp everything 

Jade Druid wasn't popular last expansion because Quest Rogue was, the meta didn't need a worse Quest Rogue to oppress control but after Quest Rogue was nerfed and Druid gained gained ridiculous board control and card advantage tools the deck went nuts.

Quote from alexbroxman >>

  That's about it, if there's something you disagree on please feel free to comment and I'll reply as best as I can.

Fiery War Axe – Everyone always knew this card was overpowered. The question was whether it would be ok in the context of the Warrior class, and if not, when it was going to get changed. Pirate warrior has been in the top 3 decks since Patches was released. Also since the release of the game, I can’t remember a low-end weapon for the Warrior being released, only higher end ones like Death’s Bite. Like they said, this opens up design space for other 2-mana weapons in the future without them automatically being relegated to the sideline in favor of Win-Axe. The nerf is 100% warranted.

Murloc Warleader – I don’t believe that this is a power-level fix as much as the other ones. The way the game deals with these aura-based health buffs is legitimately confusing. If they’d fixed it to a battlecry that all murlocs gain +1 health, then an aura effect of +2 attack, that would be fine. Nerf is also fine.

Innervate – Another one like Fiery War Axe, everyone knows it’s overpowered but question is when and how bad. They could have gone a number of directions here, as they mentioned. One they didn’t discuss was making it like Preparation and reducing the next minion cast by 2 mana. Imo, that would have fixed the current issue. But, no one will be griping about Druid nerfs of any magnitude in this meta.

Spreading Plague – I like the card, but stats showed that it was too strong. I wager that it will still be played at 6 mana, though.

Paths not taken:

 Ultimate Infestation – Let’s assume for a moment that Blizzard has access to data that we don’t about what players like about their game. During the life-span of this game, what period do you think had the most troubling player trends? If I had to guess, the C’thun Warrior dominated meta of summer 2016 was among the very worst for player participation, to include the much maligned Huntertaker, Aggro Shaman and Pirate Warrior metagames. Most players don’t end up enjoying a game defined by control on control stalemates, where matches are decided by who managed to draw the fewest cards.

The issue is, answer cards need to be on average more powerful than threats in order to reach the later game, and these stalemates will automatically result where that is true. That is, unless there is a mechanism to escalate strength and resiliency of threats as the game goes on. That’s the issue I see the Jade mechanic and Jade idol pointed at – the identity of Druid as a natural foil to decks that use fatigue as a win condition, or even decks that have to stake out too much of an advantage in cards before tempo starts to become a factor.

Where Ultimate Infestation fits into that is that it reliably summons up the contents of the player’s deck without taking 30 minutes or more. You have to defeat the contents of the player’s entire deck if you want to out-control them. But as you can see in the Control Mage v Jade Druid matchup right now, that’s actually altogether possible. And when it happens, it’s a 10 minute game where both players see the writing on the wall. I see the card taking this critical role of keeping the pace of the game tolerable for the player base, which is something that Blizzard has taken care of better lately than in the past.

Quote from alexbroxman >>

Quote from thebitterfig >>

Quote from alexbroxman >>

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 Spider Tank doesn't have overload and sure, you CAN play it but a much better nerf would probably be reducing its stats to 3/3. This idea of changing the mana cost can work with cards with powerful effects but it completely obliterates stat based low mana cost cards like fiery war axe. Also how good a card is depends on the class you play it in. Those cards work well in hunter and paladin because their tools are different.

i truly don't have any sympathy or understanding for anyone that thinks innervate wasn't a busted card. Its essentially Magic: The GAthering's Dark Ritual, which has been widely acknowledged as far too powerful for well over a decade at least.  The comparison was obvious to magic players when Hearthstone launched, and frankly im surprised that it took so long to acknowledge its inherent over-potency.

There will be more ramp cards in Druid coming soon, just not such an unconditional one that can be played in all phases of the game.  I can see several potential variations that ramp by 2 mana but cant come out in first couple of turns being fine, and occasional rotation of the best of fast ramp effects is a good thing IMHO, as wild growth itself is already plenty strong for an evergreen card.

Quote from MrShmoove >>

wahhh wahh wahhh that's all I see in that wall of text.  

Quote from dwarfeckiy >>

Dunno what's all this fuss about. Jade druid has roughly 58% win-rate across 100,000 games. That is like only 3% higher than most other viable ladder decks, except warlock. Warlock sucks. 

All those crying here about Jades not being nerfed generally play auto-pilot or semiauto-pilot decks and get smacked by Spreading Pleague. That's understanable. You just throw your shit on the board for tempo/shit/giggles with no plan the game and get punished for this. Try a more intellegent approach for once. 

Now that druid has slower ramp and his 6-mana slot is very occupied, running 2x Spreading Pleague will be a little too slow. That's one less stone in your garden.

Bullshit turn 1 Fandrals will most likely not exist anymore. Same for Flappy Bird. What's the point of turn 1 Flappy Bird going second if it's pretty manageable? There is none.

As for basic set nerfs - be thankful these shitty auto-includes are not moving to the Hall of Fame next year. You would be cryin lots more otherwise.

Quote from karnnumart >>

remember why jade not popular last exp?
because it's the way too slow
It actually Choose one: gain mana ahead or draw cards.
Now UI combine those effect

People lose to it because the just ramp up and get 5 turn ahead with zero shit to give.
Goodjob T5

It's not about how often you play UI
You just need to have that card and it's change your play style
UI is an insurance for jade druid player that they can't run out of stream even if they ramp everything 

Quote from claeshj >>

Quote from alexbroxman >>

Quote from claeshj >>

Quote from alexbroxman >>

"Terrorist: Dude killing people is fun. Stop crying and defend yourself." That's your LOGIC.

I just said that he and the terrorist are using the same flawed logic. I used that example specifically because it's easier to figure out the flaw.

 Your whole base concept is wrong. He talks about fun because, you know, he's playing a video game where the goal should be to have fun. The analogy is not accurate in the least, and has no common base. 

 In a singleplayer game you want the player to have fun.

In a multiplayer game you want everyone to have fun. I'm analyzing the new changes from a neutral perspective, he is not.

Real life is "multiplayer, therefore if someone is having fun by hurting other's it's wrong.

This isn't supposed to be hard to understand?

 And that has zero relation to the point you made previously. Nice try though, back peddling often works, so I don't blame you for trying.

Not to mention; the goal of multiplayer is not necessarily to ensure everybody has fun at all times. It's fun to win, plain and simple. And you know what? You need losing sometimes too to make winning fun instead of just monotonous.

Quote from thebitterfig >>

Quote from alexbroxman >>

Quote from thebitterfig >>

Quote from alexbroxman >>

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 Spider Tank doesn't have overload and sure, you CAN play it but a much better nerf would probably be reducing its stats to 3/3. This idea of changing the mana cost can work with cards with powerful effects but it completely obliterates stat based low mana cost cards like fiery war axe. Also how good a card is depends on the class you play it in. Those cards work well in hunter and paladin because their tools are different.

Warrior might become the worst class for a little while, but there will always be some worst class, and Warrior hasn't really ever had a turn there.  

You've seriously never seen anyone complain about innervate? People have been complaining that innervate was OP off and on since beta. The same goes for Firey War Axe, Hex, and Warleader. I won't say I've always agreed with those complaints, but those cards have certainly been complained about before multiple times.

Everytime there's a nerf there will be a deck stronger than the others after, people will keep complaining about all decks except if they're tier 3-4, because why not? Complaining is what hearthstone's all about right? This nerf is dumb and salty people will never get it.