Hearthpwn

There have been many successful tempo mages without any secrets. Flamewaker and Archmage Antonidas, not Mad Scientist, are the key cards.

Quote from JohnF30 >>

it only works because mad scientist is a completely broken card. it would be nothing without it. It's one of those decks that are entirely based on exploiting a single horribly designed card...

Not really, Secretless Tempo Mage is a thing. The "secrets package" of Mad Scientist + Mirror Image / Counterspell is powerful, but you can cut it and gain 4-6 card slots for more even more cards in the minion-spell synergy group or more card draw.

Mad Scientist is a powerful card, you could call it broken, but in itself it doesn't support the core of Tempo Mage that well.

Sorry, tempo mage doesn't need mad scientist.  It's only in the deck because it is an incredible tempo swing when it works.  If blizzard nerfed  mad scientist, another two would take its place.

Actually, most tempo mages run an unusually large amount of card draw to compensate for the number of cheap, low-impact spells they play (two Azure Drakes, one or two Arcane Intellects, sometimes one or two Spellslingers). Many run Flamestrike, offering them a substantial defensive tool to neutralize a lost board. Against some opponents, it is incorrect to aggressively spam threats on curve; against control warrior, for instance, it's best to hoard cards forcombo turns with Flamewaker or Archmage Antonidas. In fact, it's never correct to just blindly follow some prescriptive notion of "oh, I'm a tempo deck, I must play minions on curve." You have to adapt to your hand, your opponent's deck, the board state, etc.

In fact, I just don't think "tempo deck" is a useful descriptor at all. It doesn't really mean anything. Most "tempo mages" are midrange decks; some are aggro. Simple as that.

Flamestrike isn't really a good defensive tool for the deck.  I can see it as a way to win the board and snowball if you are in the middle of a heated fight, but if you're defensive then you've given Tempo to your opponent, which is the point when you've lost.

Meanwhile, I think you're getting at a point I'm getting at.  If you're running 2 flamestrikes, a ton of card draw, and are RELIANT on a midgame burst, you aren't a Tempo deck anymore: you're midrange.  The better ones have even given up on Arcane Intellect and opted for Spellslinger instead since using 3 mana to do nothing but card draw is anti-tempo and Tempo is what you need.  

Tempo decks rely on grabbing tempo early on and never, ever letting go using threats, synergy, and just plain unfairness to keep it.  They can end the game early or drag the game out.  They can fight you all day or rush your face.  So long as they have Tempo.  If that's not how the deck operates then it's not a Tempo deck.  If it rushes the early game and burns out quick, it's aggro, like a mech deck.  If it stalls early on and gets aggressive later, it's Midrange (or Control if it's MUCH later).  It's not the flamewaker that makes Tempo Tempo.  It's the playstyle.

Which, as you realize, should help shrink, at least a bit, the range of Decks that qualify, no?

According to you, and i agree, i wonder if Dual Combo Druid is a tempo deck: you try to establish board early by ramping out quickly, isnt it? A piloted shredder on turn 2 and/or a 4/6taunt on turn 3 are pretty strong tempo plays, however people calls it a midrange deck, why?

A typical play that Tempo loves to do is Mana Wyrm into Mirror, followed by several other spells, mostly against your minions while hitting your face with the wyrm.  It can VERY easily kill you.   If not, shredders, Mirror Entity/Effigy and flamewakers can either push you down to fireball range.  In the least, it makes it VERY hard for your opponent to go on the offensive while dealing with your board and keeping their health high enough.  Dr. Boom, Nexus, and/or Rag help shake things up.  Archmage lies as a constant threat.  If ANY of these isn't handled, they start combining and snowballing VERY fast into a deathblow.  Note that they aren't looking for a specific set of cards.  Shredder face hits into a fireball works just as well as a 10/3 wyrm hitting you all day or Archmage with Missiles and Mirror Image at turn 9.  

Combo Druid's preferred starting move is wild growth: a spell that does NOTHING to the board.  They also like to throw shade..and let it sit there in stealth until late game.  They throw big minions, but you aren't expected to die by Shredders or DotC.  They ramp because their 1-3 mana plays do NOTHING to help the board (Aspirant helps..a little: enough for what they need).  THeir turns 5-7 aren't killing blows.  They are setups to bring your health low and stall you.  Typically they win through their main cards: FoN and SR.  They wait until they get the cards they need, then focus on just getting minions down that stick long enough to get a stronger combo.  

You kill a Tempo deck by stealing the board.  Get a board stronger than theirs and wipe their board clean once and they are dust.  If they are lucky, they can get off a flamestrike or a flamewaker spam that may clear your board, but if you can replace it easily, or if it doesn't kill the board it's GG.  

Doing that for druid means very little if your are 14 health.  Sometimes, 20 won't be enough if they got enough combo pieces.  You win by making them use those combo pieces defensively, pressuring them regularly, keeping your health HIGH, or nuking them before the combo comes off.  

Combo decks win by surviving long enough to get the cards they need.  Early board, wipes, pressure minions.. all just to stall until they get the cards they need.  Tempo wins by grabbing the board and never letting you get on the offensive.  Combo has a specific set of cards they want and a time they want you dead.  Tempo kills you at any point that you blink.  

And not, Combo druid is a Combo deck, not a midrange deck.  Thus 'combo'.  THere used to be a Midrange variant that was less combo reliant, but people focus more on the Combo nowadays.  

see i dont actually think its that great vs. secret paladin. good, but not great. Patron Warrior is much better

Quote from iandakar >>

Quote from arrumph >>

"Tempo mage" describes a really broad range of decks, with Mana Wyrm, Frostbolt, Flamewaker, Fireball, and Archmage Antonidas being the only common denominators. Some lists are very aggressive, packing in lots of 1-mana spells and topping out at Dr. Boom. Others are very heavy midrange decks. Some mix in mechs. Some mix in dragons. It's pretty hard to generalize about tempo mage—the most you can say is that those five core cards are really strong and have all kinds of synergies in common.

Actually there IS a general mentality with Tempo mage.. It's a Tempo deck.

No I'm not being cute.

Tempo decks focus on having a VERY rigid curve of threats that focus on you keeping the board, or at least keeping the board in contest.  Thus you won't see acolytes of pain, or healbot.  You do NOT play defensive.  Even Mirror is used more to power up a Wyrm while making it an even more dangerous threat or as Waker/Arch fuel.  The idea is to keep the threats coming until your opponent miffs a turn (typically during their weak phase: early game with control/midrange, late game with aggro, so on) then snowball from there.

All of the decks also share the same weakness: recovery.  If they lose Tempo, they can't recover baring a VERY lucky flamewaker spam.  They have no heal, and very little card draw (which is why Emperor is a poor card for the deck).  That's why all of those decks are labeled the same.  It's not the cards in the deck that determines the type: it's the style and win condition.  Handlock, Demon Handlock, and Dragon Handlock all win and play VERY differently and have to be approached differently.  

Whatever cards you add in, if it plays like a Tempo, wins like a Tempo, and loses like a Tempo, it's a Tempo.

Tempo mage plays 2 arcane intillects and 2 azure drakes. There aren't many decks that have more card draw than that. They also mostly run flamestrike, which is an excellent comeback card.

Tempo mage is much more flexible than just playing for tempo. If you dont get a fast mana wyrm start, then the best plan against against control or midrange decks is to play a slower combo style game. Sit back and draw cards to save up for a powerful flamewaker or antonidas turn. The popular tempo mage decks have the ability to hang with any deck in the lategame due to Antonidas.

Quote from iandakar >>

 

[snip]

Flamestrike isn't really a good defensive tool for the deck.  I can see it as a way to win the board and snowball if you are in the middle of a heated fight, but if you're defensive then you've given Tempo to your opponent, which is the point when you've lost.

Meanwhile, I think you're getting at a point I'm getting at.  If you're running 2 flamestrikes, a ton of card draw, and are RELIANT on a midgame burst, you aren't a Tempo deck anymore: you're midrange.  The better ones have even given up on Arcane Intellect and opted for Spellslinger instead since using 3 mana to do nothing but card draw is anti-tempo and Tempo is what you need.  

Tempo decks rely on grabbing tempo early on and never, ever letting go using threats, synergy, and just plain unfairness to keep it.  They can end the game early or drag the game out.  They can fight you all day or rush your face.  So long as they have Tempo.  If that's not how the deck operates then it's not a Tempo deck.  If it rushes the early game and burns out quick, it's aggro, like a mech deck.  If it stalls early on and gets aggressive later, it's Midrange (or Control if it's MUCH later).  It's not the flamewaker that makes Tempo Tempo.  It's the playstyle.

Which, as you realize, should help shrink, at least a bit, the range of Decks that qualify, no?

To me, the part I bolded is basically the definition of a midrange deck: it has both early-game and late-game tools and can play a very aggressive game or a very measured one depending on what the opponent is doing. 

Quote from iandakar >>

All of the decks also share the same weakness: recovery.  If they lose Tempo, they can't recover baring a VERY lucky flamewaker spam.  They have no heal, and very little card draw (which is why Emperor is a poor card for the deck).  That's why all of those decks are labeled the same.  It's not the cards in the deck that determines the type: it's the style and win condition.  Handlock, Demon Handlock, and Dragon Handlock all win and play VERY differently and have to be approached differently.  

Not necessarily. Nothing is forbidding tempo mages from playing slow in late game. You really only need Mana Wyrm, Sorcerer's Apprentice, Frostbolt, Flamewaker, Mad Scientist and sometimes Unstable Portal, Flamecannon and Arcane Missiles etc to get the strong early game of tempo mage, yet you still have plenty of room for other cards (indeed if you run 2 of each cards listed above that is only 16 cards + secrets for mad scientist). High impact cards like Ragnaros the Firelord and Rhonin can greatly improve a tempo mage's late game without taking too many deck slots at all. Tempo mages can also afford to run 2 Arcane Intellects and 2 Azure Drakes for decent draw. They can also neutralize the board with Flamestrike if their early game is countered, after which they can play their big cards.

Right now I'm experimenting a tempo mage deck with Polymorph, 2 Effigy, no Mirror Entity and 2 Flamestrikes. Yet my early game plays almost identically to other tempo mage (except I don't run mad scientist).

Tempo Mage is my favorite deck to play but I would be tempted to cut my 2 Mad Scientists and 3 secrets for more low cost synergy. I've tried a few things but nothing I was satisfied with so far.

Flamewaker is the key card in these decks really. I don't even know how many times that card has let me take control of the game. Combined with Flamecannon, oh my!

Anyway, thanks to the 3 people in this thread that accepted my friend request as my real life friends stopped playing and I just got the Spectate quest done. It was a Priest vs Shamen battle just a bit ago.

Quote from Human_Guy >>

Flamewanker is just too strong to not use. Nothing can effectively deal with it. How do you deal 4 damage turn 3-4? True silver? Deathsbite? Bam, Mirror images! Nobody plays soulfire and rogues with eviscerates are no where to be seen.

Flamecannon and shredder deals 4 damage, for starters.

and mirror image is not very popular, many decks don't run it.

I do agree if tempo mage has mana wyrm + flamewaker out and then plays mirror image, it's probably time to concede.

Quote from RDIFB >>

Quote from Arananthi >>

The idea that "the meta" isn't a thing when literally everything in Hearthstone more complex than the tempo-card advantage-life tradeoff is 100% metagame based isn't just silly, it's laugh-out-loudable.

Without ever having seen you play decks, I can surely say, that you netdeck the hell out of them. You go and que up as Secrets Paladin, because that's the next big thing and it does well for you.

How about you attempt to "counter the meta" and pick a deck, that's going to bring you more success than Secrets Paladin? We'll see how that'll work out for you.

Then we can talk about the so called "meta".

Go click on my user profile and then look under "decks." Check out a few of the 250+ I've played. Then come back here and talk to me about netdecking. 

And finding a deck that will bring you more long-term success than Secrets Paladin is easy. Patron Warrior wins more than Secrets Paladin, period. It's just less popular in the lower ranks because it takes more skill, dedication, and practice to pilot correctly. The fact that I know that, and know what the meta is, doesn't have anything to do with how I play the game. I don't have enough playtime in my month to make legend, and I don't really give a crap about the seasonal warchests because I spend the money that I make at my job -- that thing that keeps me from playing more than a few games a day -- to buy whatever cards I want. I play for fun, and I play what I create. 

None of which keeps me from studying and understanding the metagame. What's holding you back?

Quote from vocum0 >>

Arcane blast is valid ? must be in tempo mage?

I'm using only one in my TempoMage. It's good, maybe you can use even 2. But 1 is fine.

I've had a lot of great moments with my 1 Arcane Blast in my tempo mage. Drop a Azure Drake and wipe out a 4-drop with a 1-mana spell...it's good. :)

mech mage is the cheap unskilled deck for mage. Usually wins because its so fast that you cant do nothing about it, and they kill you with damage spells to face. They suffer if you can clean mechs in the first 4 turns, usually they ran out of fuel and end up loosing.

Tempo mage is more skilled because you need to think ahead, and is stronger because it can be a great oponnent against everything. But have more RNG factor(depends of the version, for example casino mage is a joke deck on HS, fun to play tho), and if you have bad draws agaisnt a strong start, you may be screwed.

Quote from eviltwin94 >>

mech mage is the cheap unskilled deck for mage. Usually wins because its so fast that you cant do nothing about it, and they kill you with damage spells to face. They suffer if you can clean mechs in the first 4 turns, usually they ran out of fuel and end up loosing.

Tempo mage is more skilled because you need to think ahead, and is stronger because it can be a great oponnent against everything. But have more RNG factor(depends of the version, for example casino mage is a joke deck on HS, fun to play tho), and if you have bad draws agaisnt a strong start, you may be screwed.

While I agree with the first part that mech mage is unskilled and can be completely shut down with aoe, I don't think tempo mage requires better draw. A tempo mage getting a bad mulligan is fine against non tempo/aggro decks because their late game is good enough to stand toe to toe with control (for a while at least), but if a mech mage misses early game, they are completely screwed.

Quote from suppordel >>

Quote from eviltwin94 >>

mech mage is the cheap unskilled deck for mage. Usually wins because its so fast that you cant do nothing about it, and they kill you with damage spells to face. They suffer if you can clean mechs in the first 4 turns, usually they ran out of fuel and end up loosing.

Tempo mage is more skilled because you need to think ahead, and is stronger because it can be a great oponnent against everything. But have more RNG factor(depends of the version, for example casino mage is a joke deck on HS, fun to play tho), and if you have bad draws agaisnt a strong start, you may be screwed.

While I agree with the first part that mech mage is unskilled and can be completely shut down with aoe, I don't think tempo mage requires better draw. A tempo mage getting a bad mulligan is fine against non tempo/aggro decks because their late game is good enough to stand toe to toe with control (for a while at least), but if a mech mage misses early game, they are completely screwed.

But if Tempo mage dont curve well, they are really screwed. The only case when they stand a chance is against control because they stall early game. For example, if you dont have removal spells in the first 5 turns agains midrange decks and aggro decks(wich is more likely to be found in meta today) you loose your game around turn 6/7.

Still, i get your point and agree with you, but i still think RNG influenciate to much for my taste in tempo mage.

What tempo mage are we talking about? Most common is a heavy "low risk high reward RNG" based aggro mage wich is as dumbass as a mech mage. Others are more controllish and require some thinking process, but most mage decks in this meta are full spam, and thanks to Sorcerer's Apprentice, Mana Wyrm and Flamewaker, spell spamming is very rewarding.

Quote from eviltwin94 >>

But if Tempo mage dont curve well, they are really screwed. The only case when they stand a chance is against control because they stall early game. For example, if you dont have removal spells in the first 5 turns agains midrange decks and aggro decks(wich is more likely to be found in meta today) you loose your game around turn 6/7.

Still, i get your point and agree with you, but i still think RNG influenciate to much for my taste in tempo mage.

Ya I said "against non aggro/tempo" for that reason. What I'm saying is that if a tempo mage doesn't get their 1-3 mana cards in opening hand, getting water elemental+ fireball for example is not that bad either. :D

Quote from MvonTzeskagrad >>

What tempo mage are we talking about? Most common is a heavy "low risk high reward RNG" based aggro mage wich is as dumbass as a mech mage. Others are more controllish and require some thinking process, but most mage decks in this meta are full spam, and thanks to Sorcerer's Apprentice, Mana Wyrm and Flamewaker, spell spamming is very rewarding.

You're very wrong about Tempo Mage. Sorcerer Apprentice and Flamewalker are not full spam, you have to play them at the right time to get both tempo and some value. The deck have very few minions, if you just throw them without thinking you will lose for sure. The same with spells, most of the time you think about holding cards for late game. There's not so much RNG on the deck, Arcane Missiles, Unstable Portal and Flamewalker, that's all in most of tempo mage decks. Casino Mage is another deck.