Now, before anything else is said, don't accuse me of asking for mage buffs, because I recognize that it is very powerful these days, and don't dismiss this complaint with "Mage already has strong cards." This isn't that kind of thread.
What I am complaining about is the lack of diversity that mage, as a class, gets overall in each expansion/adventure. Its two arche-types have been around for a long time, and the only other arche-type that came later has rotated out, and the world would have been a better place if it had never existed. Sure, I've seen some Giants mage or Maly decks, even Reno mages, but those are, most often variants of Freeze mage either way.
Other classes have fun gimmicks and themes that can actually pump you up to complete quests about them. I won't list them, but I certainly can, if anyone is skeptic. A good example is Burgle for rogue. Mages don't get that. The four main rules about new mage cards are: - It poops out random minions or random spells (Which is alright, and makes games unique, but isn't enough to create something new) - Its more burst - Its a crappy legendary (which again, would be alright if it was gimmicky or fun, but not just mandatorily bad) - Its tempo-oriented, and will break arena in half
And, of course, this saddens me. Mage was the first class I got to 60 with, and used to be my one trick up my sleeve when Face Hunters reigned supreme. In fact, I think my profile still lists this as my fav class, even though it's been months since I've played with it.
Of course, I am aware of the price to pay for new gimmicks. Sometimes, they might just not click nor become top-tier. (Control Hunter, for example) Yet experimenting with new mechanics is part of the fun, and when those are pulled off in a janky way, that is what is really satisfying.
TL;DR: Mage doesn't need, nor do I want it, to be stronger. However, it could stand to be a little more than a tempo-burn class, or so I think.
Am I alone in this?
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Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health. - Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
mage does not really have a class identity away from spells and freezing, but if i had to say it is not the most stale class in the hearthstone in my opinion.
I think that mage does have a few different options, i been playing dragon mage, reno mage, tempo mage, freeze mage, yogg mage, secret mage etc. I think that if mage was giving some more tools such as a class beast or murloc the curator could be used.
Hopefully the next expansion will bring out some new ideas for mage hopefully!
I think priest only has three playable decks dragon priest, resurrect priest and control priest. i do think that mage is slightly better off than priest, as atm priest is not played at all, even paladin is lacking new design with most of its decks linked to healing, which is a bit boring somtimes.
Overall mage does need some new cards to give it more options away from being just spell originated, but i dont think it's the most stale class in hearthsone atm.
Yeah, like I said, Mage is in a pretty good spot in terms of viability. Priest and Paladin suffer a lot more than it as classes in this case. However, Paladins got both Mysterious Challenger and Anyfin, which both started off as gimmicky cards that nobody expected to see competitively. Priest only got Ressurrect, which eventually rose thanks to Barnes and Onyx Bishop.
The last "interesting" card I've seen in mage was probably Echo of Medivh, and it still saddens me that it never found a very stable place for itself.
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Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health. - Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
Blizzard will probably nerf Mages in spring 2017 so they can design a whole bunch of other good spells for mages that will actually see play over fireball/frostbolt. Druid's OTK combo got hit hard, I can see the same happening with fireball/frostbolt and possibly iceblock.
The last "interesting" card I've seen in mage was probably Echo of Medivh, and it still saddens me that it never found a very stable place for itself.
It's a fantastic card indeed. It has its place in a fatigue deck, which can be competitive i guess, but most people are not willing to play such long games.
Mage, as a class IS pretty boring at the moment (at least for me), it all comes down to burst.
Mage has revolved around burn and burst for a while now since Mech rotated out. Tempo is about burning all your cards. Freeze is about dropping Emperor -> Alex > burn.
I play a more mid-line midrange deck that combines tempo and some control aspects. It's a lot of fun and there's versatility in it. But yes, I agree Mage is a bit one-dimensional these days and there aren't many ways to play the class.
Actually, I don't feel this is quite right. Most if not all classes these days are stale ever since Standard came out. Aside from Warrior, pretty much all classes suffer in versatility these days by being limited to 3 decks at most.
This meta is among the better-balanced we've had yet, but it's boring. Hopefully the next expansion shakes that up.
However, i'd say the stalest class by far is Paladin, every deck is slow paced, even their aggro decks are far slower paced than other aggro decks.
Actually, you are right. Even though Paladins have multiple ways to finish games, they have a "speed limit", which pushes most of them into late-game oriented decks.. Mages, on the other hand, can go for both slow and fast decks, so I guess they have more choices, in the end.
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health. - Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
Usually those guys just end up putting Medivh, the Guardian in their tempo deck instead :v
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Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health. - Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
The last "interesting" card I've seen in mage was probably Echo of Medivh, and it still saddens me that it never found a very stable place for itself.
Don't know if you play Wild, but I use 1 Echo in my N'Zoth Fatigue List. Most of the time it copies N'Zoth + summoned minion and sometimes I use it with Brann and Healbot (needs one emperor tick).
Mage is one of the, if not the best designed class in the game. It's anything but stale, you can play different versions of Tempo, Control, Combo, Reno, Dragons and all of them are even perfectly viable to ladder with. I can't think of any other class that can do this consistently; it's not that mage is stale, it's that people are stale and choose to only play the BrokeBack tempo burn deck.
But those are just variants on tempo mage. There's nothing new there. Might as well include Arcane Giants and make it a Giants Tempo deck, right?
Let's face it, there's not much room for creativity.
If you are implying that those deck are the same then that is incorrect.
They differ in cards and vary in terms of play-style and matchups.
To further solidify what I'm trying to say. If you are up against a mage and you see a turn 2 loot hoarder. Is it classic freeze? is it aggro freeze? is it PTDLelouch's tempo mage variant? Also if it is a tempo variant, do you play around flamestrike? If you don't know the answer to these questions then the class cannot be stale.
Just compare it to rogue, you already know turn 1 that it is most likely leeroy mircale with a small chance of it being malygos. Which is the same it has been in years, with the list staying almost the same. Actually come to think of it, since you said all tempo mage decks were the same, do you also consider maly and leeroy miracle to be the exact same deck?
Same with paladin, going in to it, you already know it's anyfin. with a small chance of n'zoth.
If the argument is that mage is stale because there are no gimmick decks like echo-giants, then that is a result of the game being stale and not the class.
Furthermore, mage is one of two classes which can play a viable reno deck.
On rereading the original post I realized that op is not looking for top tier decks.
So here you go.
If you want more gimmick than this then you can easily make a deck with all the random cards like Servant of Yogg-Saron andSpellslinger and all of those cards and it will still be more viable than 'burgle' rogue.
Yeah, like I said, Mage is in a pretty good spot in terms of viability. Priest and Paladin suffer a lot more than it as classes in this case. However, Paladins got both Mysterious Challenger and Anyfin, which both started off as gimmicky cards that nobody expected to see competitively. Priest only got Ressurrect, which eventually rose thanks to Barnes and Onyx Bishop.
The last "interesting" card I've seen in mage was probably Echo of Medivh, and it still saddens me that it never found a very stable place for itself.
Echo of Medivh would be super fun in wild if Molten Giant hadn't been nerfed :S, Echo Giants mage was never the super competitive deck but it was something fun and different and then we have that Echo fatigue Mage that caused a lot of controversy but was a refreshing breath during the time of its creation.
i find mage to be in a decent spot of viable meta and rogue builds, Reno, grinder, control, Dragon are things you can do with mage, as for the meta decks Tempo mage has a lot of flexible slots and routes so games against two tempo mages may feel different and while freeze is a little bit more constrained there are at least a couple of different builds, giants are out of the question though, maybe something in Wild running Duplicate and Faceless Shambler can revive Echo of giants but i wouldn't place my hopes too highly on it.
for stale classes we can look at warlock as someone already said, Reno or N'zoth are the only viable build.
But those are just variants on tempo mage. There's nothing new there. Might as well include Arcane Giants and make it a Giants Tempo deck, right?
Let's face it, there's not much room for creativity.
If the argument is that mage is stale because there are no gimmick decks like echo-giants, then that is a result of the game being stale and not the class.
Furthermore, mage is one of two classes which can play a viable reno deck.
Yes, I would rather argue that the meta is currently stale. Reno, Dragons, tempo whatever, these are things that ALL classes are currently running in one form or another. There is very little variation there.
I disagree that only two classes can play Reno, though. I'm running a Reno secrets Hunter and a Reno N'Zoth Rogue. They're doing fine. Reno works with everyone.
Fact is, current cards are stale. Wild gives you more choices and they're more fun too. Hopefully the next expansion shakes things up.
I think in general the meta is very stale. Having dominant decks that both dominate board control (Shamans) and put a timer on a game (Maly Druid) really limits what can be successful and fun.
All classes are really suffering from this as you're not going to succeed unless you run extreme board removal or a ton of out of hand burst.
This next expansion is going to be critical for Hearthstone to avoid a pretty significant drop off in player base, I think .
Maybe I am the only one, however I find bursting from hand to be very fun. Freeze mage in particular is fun to me because its one of the few decks that really punishes and rewards for micro decisions. Everyone complains the meta is stale right now but also complains about combo decks and decks like freeze mage. In my personal opinion decks which you have to make many game changing decisions are the most fun. So no, I don't think mage is stale. If any classes feel stale they would be hunter, shaman, ect. (decks that you play on curve and make less micro desicions)
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Now, before anything else is said, don't accuse me of asking for mage buffs, because I recognize that it is very powerful these days, and don't dismiss this complaint with "Mage already has strong cards." This isn't that kind of thread.
What I am complaining about is the lack of diversity that mage, as a class, gets overall in each expansion/adventure. Its two arche-types have been around for a long time, and the only other arche-type that came later has rotated out, and the world would have been a better place if it had never existed. Sure, I've seen some Giants mage or Maly decks, even Reno mages, but those are, most often variants of Freeze mage either way.
Other classes have fun gimmicks and themes that can actually pump you up to complete quests about them. I won't list them, but I certainly can, if anyone is skeptic. A good example is Burgle for rogue. Mages don't get that. The four main rules about new mage cards are:
- It poops out random minions or random spells (Which is alright, and makes games unique, but isn't enough to create something new)
- Its more burst
- Its a crappy legendary (which again, would be alright if it was gimmicky or fun, but not just mandatorily bad)
- Its tempo-oriented, and will break arena in half
And, of course, this saddens me. Mage was the first class I got to 60 with, and used to be my one trick up my sleeve when Face Hunters reigned supreme. In fact, I think my profile still lists this as my fav class, even though it's been months since I've played with it.
Of course, I am aware of the price to pay for new gimmicks. Sometimes, they might just not click nor become top-tier. (Control Hunter, for example) Yet experimenting with new mechanics is part of the fun, and when those are pulled off in a janky way, that is what is really satisfying.
TL;DR: Mage doesn't need, nor do I want it, to be stronger. However, it could stand to be a little more than a tempo-burn class, or so I think.
Am I alone in this?
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health.
- Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
i understand partly where you are coming from.
mage does not really have a class identity away from spells and freezing, but if i had to say it is not the most stale class in the hearthstone in my opinion.
I think that mage does have a few different options, i been playing dragon mage, reno mage, tempo mage, freeze mage, yogg mage, secret mage etc. I think that if mage was giving some more tools such as a class beast or murloc the curator could be used.
Hopefully the next expansion will bring out some new ideas for mage hopefully!
I think priest only has three playable decks dragon priest, resurrect priest and control priest. i do think that mage is slightly better off than priest, as atm priest is not played at all, even paladin is lacking new design with most of its decks linked to healing, which is a bit boring somtimes.
Overall mage does need some new cards to give it more options away from being just spell originated, but i dont think it's the most stale class in hearthsone atm.
Yeah, like I said, Mage is in a pretty good spot in terms of viability. Priest and Paladin suffer a lot more than it as classes in this case. However, Paladins got both Mysterious Challenger and Anyfin, which both started off as gimmicky cards that nobody expected to see competitively. Priest only got Ressurrect, which eventually rose thanks to Barnes and Onyx Bishop.
The last "interesting" card I've seen in mage was probably Echo of Medivh, and it still saddens me that it never found a very stable place for itself.
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health.
- Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
Blizzard will probably nerf Mages in spring 2017 so they can design a whole bunch of other good spells for mages that will actually see play over fireball/frostbolt. Druid's OTK combo got hit hard, I can see the same happening with fireball/frostbolt and possibly iceblock.
What about Warlock? Every warlock deck is a Zoo deck or a Reno variant. And both are in a pretty bad spot right now
Mage has revolved around burn and burst for a while now since Mech rotated out. Tempo is about burning all your cards. Freeze is about dropping Emperor -> Alex > burn.
I play a more mid-line midrange deck that combines tempo and some control aspects. It's a lot of fun and there's versatility in it. But yes, I agree Mage is a bit one-dimensional these days and there aren't many ways to play the class.
Actually, I don't feel this is quite right. Most if not all classes these days are stale ever since Standard came out. Aside from Warrior, pretty much all classes suffer in versatility these days by being limited to 3 decks at most.
This meta is among the better-balanced we've had yet, but it's boring. Hopefully the next expansion shakes that up.
I don't agree that mage is a stale class.
Without going into the argument in detail and without pointing out the obvious freeze, reno and control variants.
Just look at the creative deck building space available in "tempo" mage
You can run a
Torch/acolyte version
faceless summoner version
cabalist tome version
Barnes/loot hoarder version
This doesn't seem stale at all.
But those are just variants on tempo mage. There's nothing new there. Might as well include Arcane Giants and make it a Giants Tempo deck, right?
Let's face it, there's not much room for creativity.
I guess Flamewaker and Mysterious Challenger rotating out might give the design team a bit of room to breathe.
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health.
- Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
That'swhat happens when you give one class a huge amount of burst damage.
Fuck cubelock
Usually those guys just end up putting Medivh, the Guardian in their tempo deck instead :v
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health.
- Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
Mage is one of the, if not the best designed class in the game. It's anything but stale, you can play different versions of Tempo, Control, Combo, Reno, Dragons and all of them are even perfectly viable to ladder with. I can't think of any other class that can do this consistently; it's not that mage is stale, it's that people are stale and choose to only play the BrokeBack tempo burn deck.
If you are up against a mage and you see a turn 2 loot hoarder. Is it classic freeze? is it aggro freeze? is it PTDLelouch's tempo mage variant?
Also if it is a tempo variant, do you play around flamestrike?
If you don't know the answer to these questions then the class cannot be stale.
Which is the same it has been in years, with the list staying almost the same.
Actually come to think of it, since you said all tempo mage decks were the same, do you also consider maly and leeroy miracle to be the exact same deck?
On rereading the original post I realized that op is not looking for top tier decks.
So here you go.
If you want more gimmick than this then you can easily make a deck with all the random cards like Servant of Yogg-Saron andSpellslinger and all of those cards and it will still be more viable than 'burgle' rogue.
for stale classes we can look at warlock as someone already said, Reno or N'zoth are the only viable build.
I think in general the meta is very stale. Having dominant decks that both dominate board control (Shamans) and put a timer on a game (Maly Druid) really limits what can be successful and fun.
All classes are really suffering from this as you're not going to succeed unless you run extreme board removal or a ton of out of hand burst.
This next expansion is going to be critical for Hearthstone to avoid a pretty significant drop off in player base, I think .
Maybe I am the only one, however I find bursting from hand to be very fun. Freeze mage in particular is fun to me because its one of the few decks that really punishes and rewards for micro decisions. Everyone complains the meta is stale right now but also complains about combo decks and decks like freeze mage. In my personal opinion decks which you have to make many game changing decisions are the most fun. So no, I don't think mage is stale. If any classes feel stale they would be hunter, shaman, ect. (decks that you play on curve and make less micro desicions)