Gnomeferatu
Battlecry: Remove
the top card of your opponent's deck.
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She prefers the term "Glampire."
Card Sounds
Battlecry: Remove
the top card of your opponent's deck.
She prefers the term "Glampire."
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im sorry its an RNG BS card. it can pull your win condition and its over. pull Alexstrasza from a freeze mage, Kazakus from kazakuz deck... N'Zoth, the Corruptor....C'Thun this the kind of card that will make you play aggro or midrange... hate it! there was a reasonIllidan Stormrage was nerfed. it had "Battlecry: Both players discard 3 cards and draw 3" stupid mechanic.
This card isnt op, but is annoying to play against
Has warlock ever had a 2/3 minion before this?
This card has a basicly equal amount of people thinking it will be meta-defining as Prince Malchezaar had, at 38%. :)
This isn't "meta defining", but still a great card overall, great stats for the value of mana, and brings good control if HandLock ever comes back. If the Death Knight meta it's real, this may be very good.
Also, don't compare it to Prince, only poor people thought that would be good EleGiggle
The same with this one, only people who don't understand how decks work think that removing a random card from the opponent's DECK does anything unless fatigue is relevant. And EVEN if it does, I don't think handlock would use it, since their turn two is normally gonna be hero power to set up future turns. :)
I've been waiting so long for a mill deck. MORE OF THIS!
if the text was: "discard the top card from your opponent's deck", this could actually fit really well into discard warlock, since you could trigger cards that require you to discard without even discarding your own cards, but I guess it'll be then way too powerful, even if it helps discard warlock.
This is by far the most controversial card I have seen to date, and I'm not surprised. I'm going to try and tackle both sides of this "debate" as fairly as I can manage.
We have players who make the probabilistic argument, that the effect of Gnomeferatu is mathematically insignificant. A simplified example might help. Suppose our opponent, a Paladin, has 20 cards left in deck. One of them is a Tirion Fordring, and the other 19 are comparatively useless cards. Let's assume our opponent really wants to draw Tirion on his next draw. But we're scumbag Warlocks, so we play Gnomeferatu, and discard the top card of our opponent's deck. What card will it be? In 1 out of 20 games, Tirion Fordring, and the opponent will be very salty. In 19 out of 20 games, not Tirion Fordring, and the opponent will draw Tirion 1 turn earlier than he would have otherwise. You break even. From a probability standpoint, Gnomeferatu has very little impact on decks which don't rely on drawing out their entire deck to win.
On the other hand, we have players who argue that even a small possibility of Gnomeferatu discarding their win condition feels bad. Losing Tirion Fordring feels bad. This emotional argument warrants attention as well. Hearthstone isn't a probability problem; it's a game which people play to enjoy. There's a human aspect which goes beyond mere math. When players play against Gnomeferatu, they won't be interested in the 19 times they draw Tirion 1 turn earlier. The moment that will stay in their mind is the 1 game in which, the second before their moment of victory, it was suddenly snatched away from them. And they couldn't do anything about it. They will remember that, possibly complain about it. Even if it is mathematically inconsequential. When one card has the power to create that much salt, that's no longer idiocy; that's human nature.
This is an unusual position for me to take. I don't like defending the irrational and salty side of Hearthstone's community. (Especially people who don't understand basic probability concepts.) But I do think this card is badly designed, not mechanically, but psychologically. There were other ways to design this card, such as discarding from the bottom of the deck, or even a random card in the deck, which both function the same way mathematically and feel less bad.
Anyone who's played against Mill decks knows how discarding cards from the deck feels. I've played against Mill decks in the past; it was frustrating to have your own precious cards burned because you couldn't hold them all. Yet even then, I still felt like I had agency: I just had to dump my cards as quickly as possible before I hit 10 cards. It was interactive, even if I was losing, a fever-pitch race.
There used to be a version of Illidan Stormrage which did something similar, albeit more drastic. A version predating the Hearthstone beta listed Illidan as a 7 Mana 7/7 with "Battlecry: Discard 3 cards from both players' hands." It was changed, of course, and we haven't seen cards which directly thin an opponent's deck or hand since. Dirty Rat and Deathlord at least provide the benefit of putting a minion into play.
Don't misunderstand: Gnomeferatu isn't a powerful card, and I will gladly debate anyone with constructive opinions on this topic (and a basic understanding of how probability works). The card, however, ventures into some scary territory for future card designs.
It's interesting that you bring up the possibility of multiple win conditions. Let's modify my thought experiment, according to your scenario.
We can take our Paladin opponent from before, this time with 10 cards in deck. Let's suppose (somewhat unrealistically) that all 10 cards in his deck are copies of, say, Tirion Fordring. In other words,10 win conditions. This is the best case scenario for Gnomeferatu since it is guaranteed to discard a win condition. Say we play Gnomeferatu. The opponent discards Tirion Fordring from his deck. But he doesn't care, because next turn, he draws Tirion Fordring. He will keep playing as before and never notice the difference until our opponent burns through 19 Tirions. Until our opponent runs out of cards, Gnomeferatu's effect will have had zero impact on the game. We haven't gained card advantage or board control. We've just swapped one topdeck for another.
I agree that a 2 Mana 2/3 body is decent, though simply having a pure upside isn't enough to make a card "powerful." We could apply similar reasoning and say that Friendly Bartender (Restore 1 Health to your hero) or River Crocolisk (Beast tag) is powerful as a 2 Mana 2/3 with pure upside. If that seems an unfair comparison, take our thought experiment: playing Gnomeferatu did nothing against a deck with 20 win conditions. In that situation (most situations, as I will explain) we would have preferred to have played Friendly Bartender, since it at least gives us 1 point of extra Health.
You're right to concerned about fatigue situations and Combo decks, and it's something I neglected to mention in my first post. Gnomeferatu brings the opponent one turn closer to Fatigue, and that one card can often matter in extreme late-game scenarios (I am reminded of Control Warrior mirrors). Quest Mage is an interesting case because its rigid yet powerful 5 card combo (Archmage Antonidas + 2 Sorcerer's Apprentice + 2 Molten Reflection) does have a special vulnerability to Gnomeferatu's effect. If a 1/6 probability is significant enough, Quest Mage and similar combo decks may see less play if Gnomeferatu becomes playable, or change their win conditions.
I evaluated this card on the assumption that most games don't go to Fatigue. Combo, Mill, and Fatigue decks make up a minority of the metagame: most decks, including Quest and Control decks, seek to win before they run out of cards. Taunt Warrior completes its Quest, then burns the opponent down with its Hero Power. Jade Druid doesn't fatigue. Even Control Warlock relies on the massive board presence that Lord Jaraxxus creates. It's worth noting that even against decks with only 1 win condition (Jaraxxus, say), Gnomeferatu can backfire; discarding any card except that win condition lets the opponent draw that win condition 1 turn earlier. Which can make all the difference.
Clearly, Gnomeferatu is not a Control tool; it doesn't affect board state or card advantage. The best compromise I can offer is that Gnomeferatu is a viable tech card against certain decks which desperately need every resource in their deck to win. The Combo decks you mention are one example.
I simplified the math for the overall game:
w= number of cards not yet known regardless of how many are in deck or hand
x= number of Gnomeferatu you can use (this can even include them being returned to hand to play again)
y= number of assumed valuable cards that you intend on discarding
z= number of valuable cards that have been played or discarded
x/w(y-z)= probability of discarding valuable card
Example: 2/20(6)= .6 or 60% chance of discarding a valuable card
20 is w. Which means cards that you do not know at the time. Valuable cards are defined by y which in the example would be 6.
Well now we finally get to see if this kind of mechanic is healthy for the game or not. Personally, I think deck sizes are to small for an effect like this. Time will tell. Hope I'm wrong.
People tend to look at how milling a card means you should build for fatigue or ''aim'' to get a legendary, which of course is the dream, but consider the fact that in most decks currently, at least from what I've seen while playing and watching streams, don't run that many ''filler'' cards, every single card in those decks tends to have a fairly considerable impact on the game (with a few exceptions like Arcanologist when it's drawn too late ) so just removing that card from play (I'm assuming it burns the card, revealing it to the Warlock) is a pretty considerable advantage.Burning a Fireball or a Brawl means that's one less of those you have to play around, milling card draw hampers your opponent's ability to cycle through their deck, giving you more time before they assemble a combo, deleting a piece of the combo basically just wins you the game. Sure milling a Tony's the kind of shit that would make me a very very happy little boy, but even just milling a Frostbolt would get a rise out of me.
tl;dr: This card's pretty alright I think
Milling card draw does nothing. In fact you just helped him, since the purpose of card draw is to thin the deck, and you did just that.
Nah man, this is kinda like a Dirty Rat that can hit spells. Its very anti-combo and slightly anti-control. doesn't do much vs aggro though. Its also not "thinning" as you can mill something they need.
If control gets big, and therefore Combo mage gets big, this is the hardest counter, as there is very little draw back to playing it outside of the combo matchup.
My mistake in saying ''draw'' in general, by this I include stuff like Acolyte, Manatide and Northshire, all of which usually end up either getting hit with hard removal, acting as a soft taunt or simply drawing an extra card every turn, of course milling a Novice Engineer doesn't really do that much but then I don't remember the last time I saw one of those outside of Quest Rogue. There's also cards that generate other cards, such as Stonehill Defender which is run fairly often in Warrior (Pirate excluded of course), Paladin and Shaman from what I've seen, discarding those is in no way a bad thing, which is where this card's main strength is, it's never well and truly ''bad'', it's an ''ok'' 2-drop at it's worst, and it eliminates Tonies and Tyrones before they even get to be troublesome at it's best, while usually being somewhere in the ''good'' range discarding the core pieces of most decks without having a downside.
Woah ... insta-craft my homie
It's almost as if not enough players have quit the game yet after they released Patches the Pirate so now they hope this will seal the deal.
41% meta defining, you poor poor souls.