I don't go to the card discussion thread because I don't care what every shmoe that reads it thinks. If I want to have a discussion about shaman cards or rogue cards, i want to have it with shaman or rogue players. I don't care what the masses think about it.
How is it that we can bring up a card and have a shaman discussion without it getting moved, merged or locked? Can we call it the "unofficial" thread and talk amongst ourselves? What do we have to do?
I agree. If we are having a constructive conversation related to our class, what's the problem? On the positive side, at least this is better than the old battle.net forums which were almost completely unmoderated.
I totally understand your point of view but most people don't visit Class Forums (at least I think they don't) but rather check the latest threads. That's why having multiple threads about the same card wouldn't be ideal. However, you are perfectly allowed to discuss about deckbuilding with Devolve, so with a deckbuilding related title and couple of theorycraft decks in the thread you should be fine.
Or alternatively you can discuss the Shaman cards of the entire expansion as a whole in one thread. At least I won't be locking those threads.
Wow, I just got up, saw my thread has been locked and wanted to start this same topic! Thanks Yasyne!
Reason I started the "official" Devolve thread is EXACTLY because I (as others here) DO NOT really visit other forums on this site, not even the General Discussion one. Hence I did not know there already was a Devolve thread in the GD. And even if there was, what exactly is the harm of having another one here? Just change the thread title to "Unofficial" to satisfy your urge to overmoderate and be done with it? :)
"That's why having multiple threads about the same card wouldn't be ideal."
Look, there's another thing here that's not "ideal" and we all have to put up with it all the same - the site is too slow to enjoy for casual browsing of all latest topics! And I personally only visit it from time to time to check the Shaman sub. So can we call it even, with you keeping on NOT fixing the site, and us being allowed to discuss shaman cards in the shaman forum separately?
If not allowing class card discussions in class subforums (just because the topic is already in GD) is part of the job of a mod here, I'll be forced to move on I guess. Ideally, somewhere where class card discussions are moved from GD into class forums. Now that would be moderation in my book!
I have to agree that new card discussion for a class card should be allowed within the appropriate class sub-forums without being moved, merged, deleted or locked. People wanting to discuss new class cards in that class forum with other Hearthpwn members that specifically play that class should be able to do so freely within the class sub-forum without restrictions, such as limiting the discussion to just deckbuilding.
While I empathize with the moderators and understand their reasons, I can't say I agree with them. In fact, the entire issue seems to be a failing of the site as a whole. If the main reason these threads are being policed is because people are simply checking the 'Recent Discussion' list instead of actually going the forum they actually want to participate in, then that's a problem.
Personally, I feel that this could all be avoided with a simple in Thread Title rule. For instance, let shaman or rogues or any other class have their own separate discussion about a specific card so long as the title of that thread isn't too similar to the official thread title in the Card Discussion forum to avoid confusion on the 'Recent Discussion' list. Any thread violating that rule would then be subject to being moved, merged, deleted or locked or even simply having the title of that thread changed so it abides by that rule.
Ultimately though, I'm not a moderator and at the end of the day, I have absolutely nothing to do with the site and I don't make the rules. I just feel there's a better solution than what's currently being done. Just my 2 cents.
Man this is what i call real Interaction and nearly democratic - Welcome to the HearthpwnLand where Inhabitants can ask their politicans things and get answers!
More about card threads: the Recent Discussion explanation is more how I see it than an official explanation. Officially we are instucted to a) keep discussion about cards and crafting in Card Discussion Forum and b) to lock duplicate threads. It may seem a bit harsh and as I said already, I DO understand your will to discuss with people who truly care about the card rather than just post something more or less random about it.
However, as I already said, discussing about cards in deckbuilding manner or the entire Shaman set as a whole is allowed. For example "Impact of Devolve for Shamans" should be fine. Also I personally could allow some card discussion with the Thread Title rule CasmX suggested. But I'm not the person that ultimately makes that call.
Just as a thought, but what if the official card reveal/discussion thread for Devolve would have been posted in the Shaman sub instead of the Card-Discussion sub? It would be the exact same thread, still visited in the same way by most people (through the Recent Discussion/Latest Threads list on the front page), but it would be categorized in a way that Shaman-only players would have a easier time finding it.
My personal opinion is that I'd rather not have multiple threads about the same card (or topic), because like most people I prefer to participate in active discussions, so I check the list of recently updated threads. Back during the Karazhan reveals this was really annoying, because out of the 15 threads displayed on that list, you'd often find a good 4-6 about Purify or the state of Priest, split over different subforums. Those threads often feel like broken records, the same discussion repeated over and over.
I also think that it's a bit of a mistake to assume that if a thread is in the Shaman (or any class) sub, that it will only be visited by Shaman players, or even that people in general identify as a class X player. I participate in Shaman, Rogue and Hunter discussion even though I barely play any of those classes, because I'm still interested in their cards, both because I might want to build a deck for them in a future and because I want to know what I'll be playing against as other classes.
There are definitely some varied views that I'm happy that several of you have shared. I hadn't thought about the recent topics point of view for sure or of people who like to visit the Card Discussion forums who might not want to visit 2 separate threads. Those are valid points.
Globalist, Revenant, myself and several others came from the official forums, so we are used to non-shamans posting in our subform. But we still had a comradery and the ability to discuss thoughts and ideas with limited interjection from trolls and people who aren't dedicated shaman players. That allowed us to build a community that was most often thought of as one of the best (if not THE best) class communities on the site.
We came here when those went down, frankly because this was the only site with class specific forums. That whole "recent topic" section on the home page does hurt our goal a little, but it's the best option we have.
So I'll try to title threads in a way that is both clear enough to the shaman players that it's a card discussion thread without stepping on the toes of the official card discussion thread. But the reason I come to the forums at all is to talk amongst the people who are dedicated to a specific class, not every Tom, Dick and Harry with an account. If I don't have that, then my interest in the forums is far less and ultimately I will either stop coming or find somewhere else to get what I want. So some feedback on thread titles and ways we can have the experience we want would be greatly appreciated. I would be open to changing the title of one of my threads if I cross the line rather than have it locked and all the feedback lost forever.
Ok, I just got back from the Rogue forums where they had a discussion thread locked. That thread wasn't even talking about the current card, but the card that some of them wished it was. They created their own version of the cards and were discussing their non existent version and that was the thread that was locked.
Ok, I just got back from the Rogue forums where they had a discussion thread locked. That thread wasn't even talking about the current card, but the card that some of them wished it was. They created their own version of the cards and were discussing their non existent version and that was the thread that was locked.
This is discouraging.
This just shows how each mod is an individual and sees things differently, I probably wouldn't have locked it. I understand that he saw it as discussion about the card but I'm not sure if discussing alternative versions would go well with people discussing the real one. So I can't really say what should have been done differently in order to not get it locked. I do have the power of unlocking stuff but I wouldn't like to contest other mods' decisions lightly.
Maybe a megathread about generally fixing rogue cards, although if you just want to fix that one it feels a bit unnecessary. But I'm truly sorry about these inconveniences you Battle.net refugees have encountered here and I hope you can still make this place feel like home.
Btw, I saw your crusher shaman thread, well titled. It shouldn't get locked now. If it does, I'll open it, there's clearly a deckbuilding view involved.
Ok, I just got back from the Rogue forums where they had a discussion thread locked. That thread wasn't even talking about the current card, but the card that some of them wished it was. They created their own version of the cards and were discussing their non existent version and that was the thread that was locked.
This is discouraging.
Btw, I saw your crusher shaman thread, well titled. It shouldn't get locked now. If it does, I'll open it, there's clearly a deckbuilding view involved.
Frosty, how is that thread "well titled", exactly? Had I not seen it mentioned here I would have easily dismissied it, thinking it's most likely just another new player being late to the party of playing a control shaman deck with Earth Elementals. Nothing in the title indicates it's actually a discussion of our new legendary and I'm not really interested in old decsks when new shaman cards are being released.
Which brings me to the crux of the issue - why even have class forums, if we cannot discuss class cards in them, or at least not "openly" (lol, feels nazi, much)? I mean if we are to discuss all cards in the Cards Discussion forum, then you may as well turn it up to 11 and deflect all deckbuilding into the General Deckbuilding subforum, no?
Ok, I just got back from the Rogue forums where they had a discussion thread locked. That thread wasn't even talking about the current card, but the card that some of them wished it was. They created their own version of the cards and were discussing their non existent version and that was the thread that was locked.
This is discouraging.
Btw, I saw your crusher shaman thread, well titled. It shouldn't get locked now. If it does, I'll open it, there's clearly a deckbuilding view involved.
Frosty, how is that thread "well titled", exactly? Had I not seen it mentioned here I would have easily dismissied it, thinking it's most likely just another new player being late to the party of playing a control shaman deck with Earth Elementals. Nothing in the title indicates it's actually a discussion of our new legendary and I'm not really interested in old decsks when new shaman cards are being released.
Which brings me to the crux of the issue - why even have class forums, if we cannot discuss class cards in them, or at least not "openly" (lol, feels nazi, much)? I mean if we are to discuss all cards in the Cards Discussion forum, then you may as well turn it up to 11 and deflect all deckbuilding into the General Deckbuilding subforum, no?
Just something to think about.
LONG POST WARNING!
Forums and where each thread belongs isn't easy to mods either, at least not for me. I personally dislike General Deck Building Forum as I'm not certain what even belongs there. I guess if you wanted to discuss the general state of all control decks for example, that would be the forum. However, I do like Card Discussion and that will be the place where all (at least "official") card threads will continue to be.
I checked what our mod guidebooks say about class forums and they are mainly meant for deckbuilding, playstyles and other specific class discussion. Pure card discussion threads in class subforums won't be allowed in the future either, I'm not going to lie about that, but by bringing some deckbuilding view into it and using (in my opinion) clever titles like Yasyne did you should be fine. Although I would allow such threads as "White Eyes in control Shaman" or "White Eyes - discussion and theorycrafting" (I just can't stop force-feeding the deckbuilding view to you, can I?) so that people would better know what you really want to talk about.
Couple of remarks to end this post: In case you didn't know, Discussing Moderator Based Actions is a warnable offence here (to silence anyone who doesn't submit to our reign of terror <---THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE A JOKE). I'm saying that because even this threadlocking discussion could be seen as that but as I see it we still have a positive-ish feedback session going on here rather than mod witch hunt so I don't think there is any fear about that. At least not yet. And another, more lighthearted observation: officially I should probably move this thread to another forum, possibly Site Feedback & Support, as this has very little to do with Shaman as a class. But have no fear, I won't.
(DISCLAIMER: All opinions posted in this thread are my own as is the way I interpret the rules in these posts. "The official truth" may not be exactly what is written here but it should be close enough. If the guidelines I give in my posts fail you in any way, I'm the only person you should blame for it.)
I understand Globalist's point that it doesn't draw enough attention to the card I wanted to talk about and could be missed.
So then "Crusher Shaman with White Eyes" would have been better. Can we get away with White Eyes Theorycrafting? I was worried something like that might get locked if the thread was to Devolve into card discussion. Even in the Crusher thread, someone linked the card decision thread like I was doing something wrong.
And another, more lighthearted observation: officially I should probably move this thread to another forum, possibly Site Feedback & Support, as this has very little to do with Shaman as a class. But have no fear, I won't.
Ah, but I will :)
This thread has been moved to Site Feedback and support since this is now a broader discussion about the role of the class forums.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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I don't go to the card discussion thread because I don't care what every shmoe that reads it thinks. If I want to have a discussion about shaman cards or rogue cards, i want to have it with shaman or rogue players. I don't care what the masses think about it.
How is it that we can bring up a card and have a shaman discussion without it getting moved, merged or locked? Can we call it the "unofficial" thread and talk amongst ourselves? What do we have to do?
I agree. If we are having a constructive conversation related to our class, what's the problem? On the positive side, at least this is better than the old battle.net forums which were almost completely unmoderated.
Check out my fun and innovative decks here:
Beat your opponent to a pulp with Revenant Warrior or outlast them with Demon Reno Warlock.
I totally understand your point of view but most people don't visit Class Forums (at least I think they don't) but rather check the latest threads. That's why having multiple threads about the same card wouldn't be ideal. However, you are perfectly allowed to discuss about deckbuilding with Devolve, so with a deckbuilding related title and couple of theorycraft decks in the thread you should be fine.
Or alternatively you can discuss the Shaman cards of the entire expansion as a whole in one thread. At least I won't be locking those threads.
Wow, I just got up, saw my thread has been locked and wanted to start this same topic! Thanks Yasyne!
Reason I started the "official" Devolve thread is EXACTLY because I (as others here) DO NOT really visit other forums on this site, not even the General Discussion one. Hence I did not know there already was a Devolve thread in the GD. And even if there was, what exactly is the harm of having another one here? Just change the thread title to "Unofficial" to satisfy your urge to overmoderate and be done with it? :)
"That's why having multiple threads about the same card wouldn't be ideal."
Look, there's another thing here that's not "ideal" and we all have to put up with it all the same - the site is too slow to enjoy for casual browsing of all latest topics! And I personally only visit it from time to time to check the Shaman sub. So can we call it even, with you keeping on NOT fixing the site, and us being allowed to discuss shaman cards in the shaman forum separately?
You're asking moderators to stop doing their jobs, I feel like we have different standards here.
If not allowing class card discussions in class subforums (just because the topic is already in GD) is part of the job of a mod here, I'll be forced to move on I guess. Ideally, somewhere where class card discussions are moved from GD into class forums. Now that would be moderation in my book!
I have to agree that new card discussion for a class card should be allowed within the appropriate class sub-forums without being moved, merged, deleted or locked. People wanting to discuss new class cards in that class forum with other Hearthpwn members that specifically play that class should be able to do so freely within the class sub-forum without restrictions, such as limiting the discussion to just deckbuilding.
While I empathize with the moderators and understand their reasons, I can't say I agree with them. In fact, the entire issue seems to be a failing of the site as a whole. If the main reason these threads are being policed is because people are simply checking the 'Recent Discussion' list instead of actually going the forum they actually want to participate in, then that's a problem.
Personally, I feel that this could all be avoided with a simple in Thread Title rule. For instance, let shaman or rogues or any other class have their own separate discussion about a specific card so long as the title of that thread isn't too similar to the official thread title in the Card Discussion forum to avoid confusion on the 'Recent Discussion' list. Any thread violating that rule would then be subject to being moved, merged, deleted or locked or even simply having the title of that thread changed so it abides by that rule.
Ultimately though, I'm not a moderator and at the end of the day, I have absolutely nothing to do with the site and I don't make the rules. I just feel there's a better solution than what's currently being done. Just my 2 cents.
And while we're on the topic FrostyFeet, care to link the "official" Devolve thread from the GD? :P
This comes up empty:
http://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/search?search-thread-id=&search-forum-id=9&search=devolve&search-type=1&by-author=&begin-date=&begin-time=&end-date=&end-time=&min-posts=&min-views=&forum-scope=t&search-specific-forums=&forum=9&display-type=1&submit=y
Man this is what i call real Interaction and nearly democratic - Welcome to the HearthpwnLand where Inhabitants can ask their politicans things and get answers!
:D
# Invictus Maneo #
Current Standard Deck: Kolento's Big Shaman:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/1267569-big-shaman
More about card threads: the Recent Discussion explanation is more how I see it than an official explanation. Officially we are instucted to a) keep discussion about cards and crafting in Card Discussion Forum and b) to lock duplicate threads. It may seem a bit harsh and as I said already, I DO understand your will to discuss with people who truly care about the card rather than just post something more or less random about it.
However, as I already said, discussing about cards in deckbuilding manner or the entire Shaman set as a whole is allowed. For example "Impact of Devolve for Shamans" should be fine. Also I personally could allow some card discussion with the Thread Title rule CasmX suggested. But I'm not the person that ultimately makes that call.
Just as a thought, but what if the official card reveal/discussion thread for Devolve would have been posted in the Shaman sub instead of the Card-Discussion sub? It would be the exact same thread, still visited in the same way by most people (through the Recent Discussion/Latest Threads list on the front page), but it would be categorized in a way that Shaman-only players would have a easier time finding it.
My personal opinion is that I'd rather not have multiple threads about the same card (or topic), because like most people I prefer to participate in active discussions, so I check the list of recently updated threads. Back during the Karazhan reveals this was really annoying, because out of the 15 threads displayed on that list, you'd often find a good 4-6 about Purify or the state of Priest, split over different subforums. Those threads often feel like broken records, the same discussion repeated over and over.
I also think that it's a bit of a mistake to assume that if a thread is in the Shaman (or any class) sub, that it will only be visited by Shaman players, or even that people in general identify as a class X player. I participate in Shaman, Rogue and Hunter discussion even though I barely play any of those classes, because I'm still interested in their cards, both because I might want to build a deck for them in a future and because I want to know what I'll be playing against as other classes.
There are definitely some varied views that I'm happy that several of you have shared. I hadn't thought about the recent topics point of view for sure or of people who like to visit the Card Discussion forums who might not want to visit 2 separate threads. Those are valid points.
Globalist, Revenant, myself and several others came from the official forums, so we are used to non-shamans posting in our subform. But we still had a comradery and the ability to discuss thoughts and ideas with limited interjection from trolls and people who aren't dedicated shaman players. That allowed us to build a community that was most often thought of as one of the best (if not THE best) class communities on the site.
We came here when those went down, frankly because this was the only site with class specific forums. That whole "recent topic" section on the home page does hurt our goal a little, but it's the best option we have.
So I'll try to title threads in a way that is both clear enough to the shaman players that it's a card discussion thread without stepping on the toes of the official card discussion thread. But the reason I come to the forums at all is to talk amongst the people who are dedicated to a specific class, not every Tom, Dick and Harry with an account. If I don't have that, then my interest in the forums is far less and ultimately I will either stop coming or find somewhere else to get what I want. So some feedback on thread titles and ways we can have the experience we want would be greatly appreciated. I would be open to changing the title of one of my threads if I cross the line rather than have it locked and all the feedback lost forever.
Ok, I just got back from the Rogue forums where they had a discussion thread locked. That thread wasn't even talking about the current card, but the card that some of them wished it was. They created their own version of the cards and were discussing their non existent version and that was the thread that was locked.
This is discouraging.
LONG POST WARNING!
Forums and where each thread belongs isn't easy to mods either, at least not for me. I personally dislike General Deck Building Forum as I'm not certain what even belongs there. I guess if you wanted to discuss the general state of all control decks for example, that would be the forum. However, I do like Card Discussion and that will be the place where all (at least "official") card threads will continue to be.
I checked what our mod guidebooks say about class forums and they are mainly meant for deckbuilding, playstyles and other specific class discussion. Pure card discussion threads in class subforums won't be allowed in the future either, I'm not going to lie about that, but by bringing some deckbuilding view into it and using (in my opinion) clever titles like Yasyne did you should be fine. Although I would allow such threads as "White Eyes in control Shaman" or "White Eyes - discussion and theorycrafting" (I just can't stop force-feeding the deckbuilding view to you, can I?) so that people would better know what you really want to talk about.
Couple of remarks to end this post: In case you didn't know, Discussing Moderator Based Actions is a warnable offence here (to silence anyone who doesn't submit to our reign of terror <---THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE A JOKE). I'm saying that because even this threadlocking discussion could be seen as that but as I see it we still have a positive-ish feedback session going on here rather than mod witch hunt so I don't think there is any fear about that. At least not yet. And another, more lighthearted observation: officially I should probably move this thread to another forum, possibly Site Feedback & Support, as this has very little to do with Shaman as a class. But have no fear, I won't.
(DISCLAIMER: All opinions posted in this thread are my own as is the way I interpret the rules in these posts. "The official truth" may not be exactly what is written here but it should be close enough. If the guidelines I give in my posts fail you in any way, I'm the only person you should blame for it.)
I understand Globalist's point that it doesn't draw enough attention to the card I wanted to talk about and could be missed.
So then "Crusher Shaman with White Eyes" would have been better. Can we get away with White Eyes Theorycrafting? I was worried something like that might get locked if the thread was to Devolve into card discussion. Even in the Crusher thread, someone linked the card decision thread like I was doing something wrong.