If Charge Minions couldn't attack face the turn they were played blizzard could avoid otk combos they so readily hate without completely ruining a cards viability while alsod ealing with the "design space constraints" that the emchanic generates, it would also mean that face and aggro decks would have to work their arses off to go face; taking the game into what i think would be a healthier state.
edit: keep in mind that my suggested change allows charge Minions to attack enemy Minions the turn theya re played so they could still be used and very useful as removal and threat generation.
edit 2: this way many nerfs could be reverted, leeroy, jenkins, Gadgetzan auctioneer, Starving buzzard, and the Charge spell to name a few , heck even warsong commander wouldbe able to go to his original state where he'd give charge to anything.
I have to agree. Evolve Shaman in this brawl is insane. I have like an 80 percent win rate with it and once you get 4 or 5 minions, you can double evolve and on the way get like 2 charges.
Problem is not charge, the real problem is there are not enough tools to survive against aggro decks after they rotated half of the cards out when WotG released.
there's nothing wrong with charge and this thread is stupid?
I'm not alone of this, right?
Actually there is a lot wrong with charge. Look at how other online card games handle "charge" (or whatever mechanic it's called in other games) the same way.
This card requires 4 mana, 3 Strength (a secondary requirement) and also dies at the end of the turn). It's main functionality is 3 damage removal on legs that can synergize with some graveyard mechanics. (as opposed to running a spell that does 3 damage) If you want to go face with this card you essentially will lose it at the end of the turn.
Elder Scrolls: Legends :
This (Red - Strength) card is 3 mana, but only 2 attack. So compared to our wolfrider this guy is better at trading, I'd say this card is fairly similar in role to the Stormwind Knight, just having less health.
Another color (Green - Agility ) card from ESL below
Another color Again, just 2 attack. The theme here? You pay for charge, it's attack is never equal to it's mana cost. Sure the orc had more health then wolfrider, and so does this bat, which actually has drain. Now I'd say in terms of role, the bat is more in line with wolfrider since it has drain (essentially heals the hero for the damage done), so this card is usually to better go face with. But the point? Still less attack for it's mana cost.
Faeria
This card is almost exactly like Pao Deathseeker from MM:DoC, it's slightly less mana, but has 2 land requirements, and dies at the end of the turn.
This is what wolfrider SHOULD have been like (similar stats). A 3 mana, 2/1 with charge.
Conclusion:
Every other game out there realizes charge is a powerful mechanic and as you can see, makes sure that their charge minions generally have less attack than their mana cost. There are always going to be exceptions to the rule, however in the cases where there are exceptions (Pao Deathseeker, Wind Rider) the charge minion has negative card text.
The only card that we see similar negative card text on that also has charge (in Hearthstone) is Leeroy Jenkins. Which I think is still a badly tuned card since it's only used as a finisher.
Charge should be a "catch up" mechanic, and thus should have a cost associated for it's ability to immediately act. A 3/1 wolfrider with no downside? It's overtuned.
I know that charge isn't limited to just wolfrider, however I wanted to point out that charge is not the balanced mechanic that a lot of people think it is in hearthstone. The other games also have other limiting factors that prevent charge from being an out of control mechanic. (ESL and MM:DoC have lanes that can be blocked through various keywords and mechanics, Faeria has actual distance you have to travel as well as keywords that can block it).
Hopefully this sheds some insight into the industry standard for charge.
there's nothing wrong with charge and this thread is stupid?
I'm not alone of this, right?
Actually there is a lot wrong with charge. Look at how other online card games handle "charge" (or whatever mechanic it's called in other games) the same way.
This card requires 4 mana, 3 Strength (a secondary requirement) and also dies at the end of the turn). It's main functionality is 3 damage removal on legs that can synergize with some graveyard mechanics. (as opposed to running a spell that does 3 damage) If you want to go face with this card you essentially will lose it at the end of the turn.
Elder Scrolls: Legends :
This (Red - Strength) card is 3 mana, but only 2 attack. So compared to our wolfrider this guy is better at trading, I'd say this card is fairly similar in role to the Stormwind Knight, just having less health.
Another color (Green - Agility ) card from ESL below
Another color Again, just 2 attack. The theme here? You pay for charge, it's attack is never equal to it's mana cost. Sure the orc had more health then wolfrider, and so does this bat, which actually has drain. Now I'd say in terms of role, the bat is more in line with wolfrider since it has drain (essentially heals the hero for the damage done), so this card is usually to better go face with. But the point? Still less attack for it's mana cost.
Faeria
This card is almost exactly like Pao Deathseeker from MM:DoC, it's slightly less mana, but has 2 land requirements, and dies at the end of the turn.
This is what wolfrider SHOULD have been like (similar stats). A 3 mana, 2/1 with charge.
Conclusion:
Every other game out there realizes charge is a powerful mechanic and as you can see, makes sure that their charge minions generally have less attack than their mana cost. There are always going to be exceptions to the rule, however in the cases where there are exceptions (Pao Deathseeker, Wind Rider) the charge minion has negative card text.
The only card that we see similar negative card text on that also has charge (in Hearthstone) is Leeroy Jenkins. Which I think is still a badly tuned card since it's only used as a finisher.
Charge should be a "catch up" mechanic, and thus should have a cost associated for it's ability to immediately act. A 3/1 wolfrider with no downside? It's overtuned.
I know that charge isn't limited to just wolfrider, however I wanted to point out that charge is not the balanced mechanic that a lot of people think it is in hearthstone. The other games also have other limiting factors that prevent charge from being an out of control mechanic. (ESL and MM:DoC have lanes that can be blocked through various keywords and mechanics, Faeria has actual distance you have to travel as well as keywords that can block it).
Hopefully this sheds some insight into the industry standard for charge.
And over in MTG, we have Spark Elemental (1 mana 3/1 Haste, dies at the end of turn), Goblin Guide (1 mana 2/2 Haste with minor drawback), Hellspark Elemental (2 mana 3/1 haste, dies at end of turn. If it's in your graveyard, you may pay 2 mana to bring it back to the battlefield), and Craterhoof Behemoth (8 mana, Haste, All creatures you control gain Trample (Damage spills over if blocked) and gain +x/+x, where x is the number of creatures you control).
Wolfrider, such a powerful card. We're shaking in our boots. Charge is fine. I played MTG for years, and it was fine there too. Be happy that some minions in HS don't have trample too, so they can laugh at your taunts. :)
yeah, in MTG things are a lot worse usually. Goblin guide is the only thing played with charge (haste) and thats because its a 2/2 for 1. anything that has worse stats than its cost is bad unless its text has a HUGE upside, and charge is not worth a whole lot, not to mention charge minions are easy to kill.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The best way to solve problems is to create more problems until you are dead
In MtG there are instants though and tons of other ways to react on your opponent's turn. Any cheap instant removal in MtG kills every card you listed there. Craterhoof you say? Path to Exile or Perilous Vault. Spark Elemental you say? Lightning Bolt or Doom Blade. Any other creature attacking you say? Block. The computer based card games do not have that. MtG has instants, artifacts, enchantments, blocking, etc that can all deal with minions attacking the turn they are played. Honestly that's why MtG is better and always will be better than any computer card game (because of the real time interaction). That's also why the Haste creatures look ridiculously overpowered in MtG; because the opponent has so many ways to do something about it. Just the fact that there is blocking in MtG fixes Haste's brokenness. If they could somehow work in blocking to these computer games, problem solved. I'm talking about blocking with any minion, not just Taunt, Guard, etc. Maybe something like when an enemy creature/minion attacks, you have 5 seconds to react with a blocker or else they hit their target. That's just off the top of my head, but I've made my point.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Nature is the Day. Man is the Sun. Woman is the Moon. The Stone is the Sky. The Art is the Way.
To reiterate what I've said before in another "Nerf Charge" thread:
Charge is not a problem. There's a combo that can be abused, and a deck for it, but that deck isn't busted. What is busted is that Charge is a volatile mechanic to GIVE to another card. The Charge spell should do a lot more than just give a minion a measly +2/+0 and Charge and along with that it should also cost a lot more than what it does as well.
How would people like it in competitive play if Ragnaros cost 5 mana, was a 2/2 and still kept its effect? What about Madder Bomber being a 2/1 for 2 mana that still kept its effect? That's the kind of volatility I'm relating to Charge here. It's not a problem with cards right now, but the ability to grant Charge is hurting design space because of how cheap it is. That's why Blizzard destroyed Warsong Commander, I guarantee you all.
there's nothing wrong with charge and this thread is stupid?
I'm not alone of this, right?
Actually there is a lot wrong with charge. Look at how other online card games handle "charge" (or whatever mechanic it's called in other games) the same way.
This card requires 4 mana, 3 Strength (a secondary requirement) and also dies at the end of the turn). It's main functionality is 3 damage removal on legs that can synergize with some graveyard mechanics. (as opposed to running a spell that does 3 damage) If you want to go face with this card you essentially will lose it at the end of the turn.
Elder Scrolls: Legends :
This (Red - Strength) card is 3 mana, but only 2 attack. So compared to our wolfrider this guy is better at trading, I'd say this card is fairly similar in role to the Stormwind Knight, just having less health.
Another color (Green - Agility ) card from ESL below
Another color Again, just 2 attack. The theme here? You pay for charge, it's attack is never equal to it's mana cost. Sure the orc had more health then wolfrider, and so does this bat, which actually has drain. Now I'd say in terms of role, the bat is more in line with wolfrider since it has drain (essentially heals the hero for the damage done), so this card is usually to better go face with. But the point? Still less attack for it's mana cost.
Faeria
This card is almost exactly like Pao Deathseeker from MM:DoC, it's slightly less mana, but has 2 land requirements, and dies at the end of the turn.
This is what wolfrider SHOULD have been like (similar stats). A 3 mana, 2/1 with charge.
Conclusion:
Every other game out there realizes charge is a powerful mechanic and as you can see, makes sure that their charge minions generally have less attack than their mana cost. There are always going to be exceptions to the rule, however in the cases where there are exceptions (Pao Deathseeker, Wind Rider) the charge minion has negative card text.
The only card that we see similar negative card text on that also has charge (in Hearthstone) is Leeroy Jenkins. Which I think is still a badly tuned card since it's only used as a finisher.
Charge should be a "catch up" mechanic, and thus should have a cost associated for it's ability to immediately act. A 3/1 wolfrider with no downside? It's overtuned.
I know that charge isn't limited to just wolfrider, however I wanted to point out that charge is not the balanced mechanic that a lot of people think it is in hearthstone. The other games also have other limiting factors that prevent charge from being an out of control mechanic. (ESL and MM:DoC have lanes that can be blocked through various keywords and mechanics, Faeria has actual distance you have to travel as well as keywords that can block it).
Hopefully this sheds some insight into the industry standard for charge.
And over in MTG, we have Spark Elemental (1 mana 3/1 Haste, dies at the end of turn), Goblin Guide (1 mana 2/2 Haste with minor drawback), Hellspark Elemental (2 mana 3/1 haste, dies at end of turn. If it's in your graveyard, you may pay 2 mana to bring it back to the battlefield), and Craterhoof Behemoth (8 mana, Haste, All creatures you control gain Trample (Damage spills over if blocked) and gain +x/+x, where x is the number of creatures you control).
Hearthstone's Charge mechanic is fine.
well this is a necropost and when i posted this in october 2015 the standard rotation hadn't happened but true face decks where ignoring your opponent and going ham face were still prevalent in almost every class, thrall can still consistently do it, i've lost to people rockbitering my face in turn 1 then coin lava bursting my face in turn 2 because i didn't happen to draw an answer for a 4 mana 7/7, but only 2 decks that can do it remain and even then aggro thrall has to trade sometimes. The thing is, during those days decks were so stuffed with charge minions that went face and didn't even try a trade that even sludge belcher and healbot were bandaided solutions to it, so i thought that sacrificing otks was a price i'd be willing to pay to see aggro's power level reduced..now i'm not so sure, i still think aggro in hearthstone is broken but otks should actually exist to avoid the game from turning into "play the strongest drop for its respective mana slot" which would just invalidate a lot and i mean a lot of the cards, like Piloted Shredder used to do with 4 drops.
also Mtg may have all those strong charging minions and although those decks are viable and strong they don't overcentralize the meta because wizards of the coast aren't afraid of giving control tools to defend themselves, just look at the theros block, the meta deck to beat was a R/U dragon control deck and that's when blue had access to cloudfin raptor, nightevil specter, triton tactics, ensoul artifact and thassa herself.
When BRM came out, everyone was playing Dragon Priest whitch was pretty slow
You guys truly don't know anything about the broken huntertaker meta or Patron Warrior. If we compare this meta to those, it is true that the meta is still fast but at least not broken fast
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Just remember the good times!
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
If Charge Minions couldn't attack face the turn they were played blizzard could avoid otk combos they so readily hate without completely ruining a cards viability while alsod ealing with the "design space constraints" that the emchanic generates, it would also mean that face and aggro decks would have to work their arses off to go face; taking the game into what i think would be a healthier state.
edit: keep in mind that my suggested change allows charge Minions to attack enemy Minions the turn theya re played so they could still be used and very useful as removal and threat generation.
edit 2: this way many nerfs could be reverted, leeroy, jenkins, Gadgetzan auctioneer, Starving buzzard, and the Charge spell to name a few , heck even warsong commander wouldbe able to go to his original state where he'd give charge to anything.
what do you think?
I think most if not all aggro decks would not be played at a viable level on ladder
Charge is bullshit, especially with resurrected minions that get charge again. If charge becomes a battlecry, they can't do that anymore.
uuuhhhh
there's nothing wrong with charge and this thread is stupid?
I'm not alone of this, right?
The best way to solve problems is to create more problems until you are dead
Yeah, you're not alone, I have no idea how it would even be a battlecry.
I have to agree. Evolve Shaman in this brawl is insane. I have like an 80 percent win rate with it and once you get 4 or 5 minions, you can double evolve and on the way get like 2 charges.
when a mod necroposts your almost 1 year old thread you had completely forgotten about.
#Necromod
I think the mechanics is fine, and OTK decks are fine too.
salt threads after loses to charge minion. If changes Nerf, aggro deck will die. Freeze mage, priest will become unstopped.
Problem is not charge, the real problem is there are not enough tools to survive against aggro decks after they rotated half of the cards out when WotG released.
Dead but dreaming
Raving mad bro, bat s*** crazy.
Wolfrider, such a powerful card. We're shaking in our boots. Charge is fine. I played MTG for years, and it was fine there too. Be happy that some minions in HS don't have trample too, so they can laugh at your taunts. :)
yeah, in MTG things are a lot worse usually. Goblin guide is the only thing played with charge (haste) and thats because its a 2/2 for 1. anything that has worse stats than its cost is bad unless its text has a HUGE upside, and charge is not worth a whole lot, not to mention charge minions are easy to kill.
The best way to solve problems is to create more problems until you are dead
In MtG there are instants though and tons of other ways to react on your opponent's turn. Any cheap instant removal in MtG kills every card you listed there. Craterhoof you say? Path to Exile or Perilous Vault. Spark Elemental you say? Lightning Bolt or Doom Blade. Any other creature attacking you say? Block. The computer based card games do not have that. MtG has instants, artifacts, enchantments, blocking, etc that can all deal with minions attacking the turn they are played. Honestly that's why MtG is better and always will be better than any computer card game (because of the real time interaction). That's also why the Haste creatures look ridiculously overpowered in MtG; because the opponent has so many ways to do something about it. Just the fact that there is blocking in MtG fixes Haste's brokenness. If they could somehow work in blocking to these computer games, problem solved. I'm talking about blocking with any minion, not just Taunt, Guard, etc. Maybe something like when an enemy creature/minion attacks, you have 5 seconds to react with a blocker or else they hit their target. That's just off the top of my head, but I've made my point.
Nature is the Day.
Man is the Sun.
Woman is the Moon.
The Stone is the Sky.
The Art is the Way.
To reiterate what I've said before in another "Nerf Charge" thread:
Charge is not a problem. There's a combo that can be abused, and a deck for it, but that deck isn't busted. What is busted is that Charge is a volatile mechanic to GIVE to another card. The Charge spell should do a lot more than just give a minion a measly +2/+0 and Charge and along with that it should also cost a lot more than what it does as well.
How would people like it in competitive play if Ragnaros cost 5 mana, was a 2/2 and still kept its effect? What about Madder Bomber being a 2/1 for 2 mana that still kept its effect? That's the kind of volatility I'm relating to Charge here. It's not a problem with cards right now, but the ability to grant Charge is hurting design space because of how cheap it is. That's why Blizzard destroyed Warsong Commander, I guarantee you all.
When BRM came out, everyone was playing Dragon Priest whitch was pretty slow
You guys truly don't know anything about the broken huntertaker meta or Patron Warrior. If we compare this meta to those, it is true that the meta is still fast but at least not broken fast
Just remember the good times!