Rogue has been top tier for years, and, for years, rogue players have whined about not being strong enough before an expansion. (Not recently though) Rogue always has busted annoying cards. Come on, when was the last time rogue was at the bottom?
Rogue has been top tier for years, and, for years, rogue players have whined about not being strong enough. Rogue always has busted annoying cards. Come on, when was the last time rogue was at the bottom?
In rotation? when Deathrattle rogue was introduce and Miracle was nerfed. So there was not any way to play rogue except bad-aggro rogue. Or half miracle half aggro rogue. After that the class go pretty fast into a decent state and top tier later.
Rogue has always been my least favorite class because they punish players for playing big minions. They either kill you before you get the chance or they use sap/cheap removal to neutralize them. I also hate how they bounce cards back into hand.
I dislike druid for similar reasons. (In Druid's case they are so good at playing big minions that they list neutral card design space)
Tier doesn't mean anything. Rogue has been so oppressive, the meta has tech'd just to counter Rogue.
As far as feelings go, Rogue just poses very uninteresting gameplay. You can't interact with a weapon bashing into your face the whole match, and you can't even interact with the minions because they're all stealthed. Add to that the fact that Rogue has Secret Passage, it makes it a ridiculous aggro deck, without ever running out of cards.
Isn't refusing to run anti-weapon tech the same as not running taunts against hyper-aggro decks and then complaining how they are unbeatable? If Ooze catches my buffed self-sharpening, which every player worth his salt will do, it is pretty much GG for me. Likewise lots of taunt and AoE hurt too obviously, stealth does not help with those.
@Reisen_Undonge yeah I am gonna call BS on that one m8, remember I am currently playing this deck extensively as it is the only good one I have. Not gonna try to do a lot of math to prove you wrong but that is probably impossible. And if it isn't it is because the rogue highrolled like hell and you did not pressure the rogue at all so he kept his Eviscerates, Preps and whatnot and you are letting him sit there with 10 mana AND no taunt on your side. And you are gonna be mad about that?
Anyway it is finished, the nerf is coming down so no point to argue. I am amazed by the amount of hate however, at least you guys can be happy now maybe. I feel you are more mad now than I am and it's my deck that is dead. :P As I said I played the deck extensively and it is not that good, people can try it out for themselves if they think the grass is so much greener. Though unnerfedArcane Golem might bring revenge to us Rogues yet ;)
I think it's just one of those decks that feels really unfun to play against. The stealth minions and 'whack face' aspect just feels very face huntery and is fairly lame to lose to. Nothing wrong with it as such, not saying its over powered but it is an archetyoe I personally don't like, same with face hunter.
When you lose to it, it often feels quite cheap and your opponent has barely (if at all) interacted with you or your board so it feels a little like you're playing against ai and just trying to burn it down or survive. It doesn't have much-loved variance or discovery so you see the same combos and the same cards over and over. As much as people hate discovery and randomness, it keeps the game fresh imo.
The decks I have least like playing against - res priest, aggro rogue, gave hunter, demon hunter etc all share this in common. You just roll your eyes when secret passage into double eviscerate just skips past the taunts you've put up to try and stabilise after an early onslaught of stealth minions and finishes you off. Your opponent hasn't attacked one minion of yours or done anything other than play on curve and hit face.
It's tedious. I don't call for these decks to be nerfed typically, I appreciate its more of a personal taste thing from my ordosecrive but you asked why it is hated and that doesn't have to mean that it's over powered, at least from my perspective.
lol just saw they nerfed nitroboost, congratz whiners
LUL, just a drop of water on the molten hot steel of Meta imbalance, broken Classic cards like Shadowstep and Preparation shouldn't even have made it to the Core Set in the first place, nor should cards like Secret Passage even exist. Ban them on all 195 world countries. Also fire the Team 5 Rogue employer who is creating and giving permission to these cards.
from your avatar it seems you are man of culture too <3
Aggro decks just shouldn't be drawing their whole deck. All aggro decks have irritating aspects to them (for Rogue it's stealth and weapon buffing), but historically you could run them out of gas, you cannot do that against Rogue (or Demon Hunter and to a degree Elemental Mage).
I just wish we could return back to a time where aggro decks prayed for a strong early curve and if they didn't get it they would lose. Aggro is and always will be important to the game but I don't believe it should completely define the meta like it does now.
All hatred comes from decks being too strong. "Nobody" hates Rogue during those times when Rogue is bad.
Meanwhile, it's also Kyle Fergusson's Banana. One day the internet loves bananas, one day the internet loves bananas. Make up your mind! Of course, it's different people each day.
The point is that rogue was strong when the expansion came out, it's the only pure aggro deck that draws with half of the cards in the deck. After the nerf of secret passage ( 1 mana draw five btw, the most insane card printed ,in my opinion) people stop playing weapon rogue (idk why, maybe 1 mana draw 4 was too bad?). But the card that made this deck was Nitroboost Poison, another insane card that skyrocket the dmg they can deal with just 1 mana. So, they didn't kill the class at all, they just nerfed the most powerful card of the mini set BY FAR, making it harder to corrupt and play. Now, with that in mind maybe rogue is hated because they received, in this expansion, 2 broken cards and because we have 1 way to interact wth the weapon (ooze) and, for most decks, few ways to interact with a stealth board of 3\1. So, imagine playing a control deck, that is obliged to play 2 oozes, hoping to draw them with less card draw than the aggro deck.
Aggro decks just shouldn't be drawing their whole deck. All aggro decks have irritating aspects to them (for Rogue it's stealth and weapon buffing), but historically you could run them out of gas, you cannot do that against Rogue (or Demon Hunter and to a degree Elemental Mage).
I just wish we could return back to a time where aggro decks prayed for a strong early curve and if they didn't get it they would lose. Aggro is and always will be important to the game but I don't believe it should completely define the meta like it does now.
I don't understand how do they not run out of gas if they draw their whole deck ?
Aggro decks just shouldn't be drawing their whole deck. All aggro decks have irritating aspects to them (for Rogue it's stealth and weapon buffing), but historically you could run them out of gas, you cannot do that against Rogue (or Demon Hunter and to a degree Elemental Mage).
I just wish we could return back to a time where aggro decks prayed for a strong early curve and if they didn't get it they would lose. Aggro is and always will be important to the game but I don't believe it should completely define the meta like it does now.
I don't understand how do they not run out of gas if they draw their whole deck ?
Aggro decks just shouldn't be drawing their whole deck. All aggro decks have irritating aspects to them (for Rogue it's stealth and weapon buffing), but historically you could run them out of gas, you cannot do that against Rogue (or Demon Hunter and to a degree Elemental Mage).
I just wish we could return back to a time where aggro decks prayed for a strong early curve and if they didn't get it they would lose. Aggro is and always will be important to the game but I don't believe it should completely define the meta like it does now.
I don't understand how do they not run out of gas if they draw their whole deck ?
Is the point not that by drawing through their deck they consistently hit the cards needed for their win condition? They don't run out of gas because they've been able to access the tools necessary in order to then end the game.
I would also think that it wasn't quite as literal as 'their entire deck', more a generalisation that they can draw through so much, so often that they don't have the downside of not finding the tools they need, which is something that aggro typically had to consider.
Usually, when the opponents play a deck, it seems super OP, and then I try it, and it seems mortal.
With Stealth Rogue it's the other way around. When I play against it, it feels kinda week and easily stuffable. When I play with it, it seems nearly unstoppable. I did only play some 20 games with it, but I had a 10+ win streak to legend with it, losing only a few games beforehand.
It is quite a busted deck, but aren't all decks busted these days? I brew a Control Priest deck to try and complete the 'pay life' achievement before rotation, and it made me realize how busted all (other) decks are.
And regarding hate, there's nothing one can do about it. People feel entitled to win and hate pretty much everything that stands in their way. It's a shame, but that's the way it's always been. Maybe we should all learn to meditate more :D
Aggro decks just shouldn't be drawing their whole deck. All aggro decks have irritating aspects to them (for Rogue it's stealth and weapon buffing), but historically you could run them out of gas, you cannot do that against Rogue (or Demon Hunter and to a degree Elemental Mage).
I just wish we could return back to a time where aggro decks prayed for a strong early curve and if they didn't get it they would lose. Aggro is and always will be important to the game but I don't believe it should completely define the meta like it does now.
I don't understand how do they not run out of gas if they draw their whole deck ?
Is the point not that by drawing through their deck they consistently hit the cards needed for their win condition? They don't run out of gas because they've been able to access the tools necessary in order to then end the game.
I would also think that it wasn't quite as literal as 'their entire deck', more a generalisation that they can draw through so much, so often that they don't have the downside of not finding the tools they need, which is something that aggro typically had to consider.
Yeah that is the point. It was a throwaway comment, meant to highlight aggro Rogue's ludicrous card draw (but not meant to be taken literally). They don't actually draw their entire deck (although they can), and you can, with some luck and the right deck, run them out of gas. This is the internet though and PetiteMouche couldn't let go of an opportunity to be pointlessly pedantic.
Classic Face Hunter would run out of cards in their hand as they played primarily for tempo and lacked cheap refills (Quickshot was added later but even that only replaces itself). Hence you would run them out of gas often if you played control (as they would be top decking pretty early into the game and your spells/minions would typically trade better than 1 for 1).
This doesn't happen with aggro Rogue* as both Cutting Class, and Secret Passage can draw a combined total of 10 cards with potentially no tempo loss. Then they can equip another Self Sharpening Sword to start clocking you for 7/8/9 damage. It's very hard to 'out-control' Rogue because of this.
*at least not nearly as often, I shouldn't have to write clarifications like this but apparently I do.
@P4dge It is funny, I 100% disagree with you but you were polite and reasonable so can't dislike you ;) I have come to absolutely loathe the Discover mechanic, it is just so worn out by now, pulling answers out of your ass, it also contributes a lot to the infinite value problem. And while I used to be a hyper-heavy control fan I have started to find such matches tedious and wish for something quick and exciting. I also disagree as to its apparent omnipotence over control, again as I said a few times people can just play it and see that it isn't what it seems on those saltiest of matches. People notice the bad and forget the good, hence hating every class but their own, and maybe even that :P
You are also very adult in realizing that aggro has a place in keeping the meta from becoming too greedy, as I said you'd see a lot more Tickatus without rogue and well we will see if warlock spikes after Thursday.
@eeronblac Actually the deck has a really high skill ceiling. Deciding when to remove a threat and when to push for damage. Finding a path to lethal is often very tricky. When to use Secret Passage. To calculate lethal on the fly since with Pen Flingers and a bunch of cards in hands there are a lot of combinations. There is a lot of subtlety and intricacy to it. It is a lot like old miracle rogue, that is why I love it. It is definitely not face hunter in rogue.
If some bad player were to use this deck like a hammer I don't think they'd leave Silver, definitely not Gold.
Rogue is hated because it is the most obviously broken class of all, just look at high legend rank and the 3 best decks are all Rogue, it's very low iq class. Look at the power levels of the upcoming rogue cards compared to the power levels of Druid for example it's night and day...
Somebody is seriously asking this question? There is just so much wrong with current Rogue archetype (and this is my first and only class I got 1000 wins with).
It completely ignores your opponent - he plays minions? you go face. He clears your board? You go face. He puts taunts in the way? You use sap or 2/1 minion for 1 to get rid of it and you go face.
It is just braindead strategy, which doesnt allow any control/late game decks. Even if you put 2x ooze into your deck and destroy both weapons, he just puts up another one, use poisons and go face. Even if you have milion boardclear, he has invis minions you cant target and he goes face.
The only counterstrategy to Rogue is just to try to survive, unless you go another braindead aggro/token deck.
Honestly I want to make legend this month and I cant, because I keep running into Rogue. Even decks which are specifically designed to counter it have like 50-60% winrate, because it has so much power and damage. With decks like deathrattle hunter I have around 15% winrate (and I got there 2x ooze, 2x explosive trap, Bola, legendary weapon, weapon that spawns 1/1s - 7 cards specifically picked to counter Rogue).
The worst thing is, that Blizzard is even supporting this archetype with more poisons, more weapons (even 2/5 weapon is insane here, because you dont have enough destro for all weapons). This deck is just a joke.
Big problem is, that it doesnt run out of steam - previous aggro decks if they did not kill you by turn 5-6 did have nothing - maybe 1-2 refills. Rogue has endless refill, he can use all 30 cards (and generate more) by turn 8-9. If you get bad draw with aggro hunter, DH, you lose. For rogue, it doesnt matter.
They should nerf secret passage to the ground - 3 mana would be probably fair. Or make it that you discard everything after using secret passage, that would make sense as well.
Isn't refusing to run anti-weapon tech the same as not running taunts against hyper-aggro decks and then complaining how they are unbeatable? If Ooze catches my buffed self-sharpening, which every player worth his salt will do, it is pretty much GG for me. Likewise lots of taunt and AoE hurt too obviously, stealth does not help with those.
You can run 2x ooze, but for example by turn 7 other classes (priest, warrior, hunter, shaman) see 3-4 starting cards (2x, if he decides to switch all of them), draw 7 and maybe get 1-2 from draw. Similarly other classes - so best case scenario, he sees 14 cards while mulliganing all hand.
This is something Rogue players dont understand - even if you play all counters and invest 7-8 cards specificall to counter rogue, you will often not find them or you find them at time you dont need them anymore.
Rogue has been top tier for years, and, for years, rogue players have whined about not being strong enough before an expansion. (Not recently though) Rogue always has busted annoying cards. Come on, when was the last time rogue was at the bottom?
In rotation? when Deathrattle rogue was introduce and Miracle was nerfed. So there was not any way to play rogue except bad-aggro rogue. Or half miracle half aggro rogue. After that the class go pretty fast into a decent state and top tier later.
Rogue has always been my least favorite class because they punish players for playing big minions. They either kill you before you get the chance or they use sap/cheap removal to neutralize them. I also hate how they bounce cards back into hand.
I dislike druid for similar reasons. (In Druid's case they are so good at playing big minions that they list neutral card design space)
Isn't refusing to run anti-weapon tech the same as not running taunts against hyper-aggro decks and then complaining how they are unbeatable? If Ooze catches my buffed self-sharpening, which every player worth his salt will do, it is pretty much GG for me. Likewise lots of taunt and AoE hurt too obviously, stealth does not help with those.
@Reisen_Undonge yeah I am gonna call BS on that one m8, remember I am currently playing this deck extensively as it is the only good one I have. Not gonna try to do a lot of math to prove you wrong but that is probably impossible. And if it isn't it is because the rogue highrolled like hell and you did not pressure the rogue at all so he kept his Eviscerates, Preps and whatnot and you are letting him sit there with 10 mana AND no taunt on your side. And you are gonna be mad about that?
Anyway it is finished, the nerf is coming down so no point to argue. I am amazed by the amount of hate however, at least you guys can be happy now maybe. I feel you are more mad now than I am and it's my deck that is dead. :P As I said I played the deck extensively and it is not that good, people can try it out for themselves if they think the grass is so much greener. Though unnerfedArcane Golem might bring revenge to us Rogues yet ;)
I think it's just one of those decks that feels really unfun to play against. The stealth minions and 'whack face' aspect just feels very face huntery and is fairly lame to lose to. Nothing wrong with it as such, not saying its over powered but it is an archetyoe I personally don't like, same with face hunter.
When you lose to it, it often feels quite cheap and your opponent has barely (if at all) interacted with you or your board so it feels a little like you're playing against ai and just trying to burn it down or survive. It doesn't have much-loved variance or discovery so you see the same combos and the same cards over and over. As much as people hate discovery and randomness, it keeps the game fresh imo.
The decks I have least like playing against - res priest, aggro rogue, gave hunter, demon hunter etc all share this in common. You just roll your eyes when secret passage into double eviscerate just skips past the taunts you've put up to try and stabilise after an early onslaught of stealth minions and finishes you off. Your opponent hasn't attacked one minion of yours or done anything other than play on curve and hit face.
It's tedious. I don't call for these decks to be nerfed typically, I appreciate its more of a personal taste thing from my ordosecrive but you asked why it is hated and that doesn't have to mean that it's over powered, at least from my perspective.
from your avatar it seems you are man of culture too <3
@Inzan1ty- kun
Il'gynoth
Its brainless face deck. Thats all.
Aggro decks just shouldn't be drawing their whole deck. All aggro decks have irritating aspects to them (for Rogue it's stealth and weapon buffing), but historically you could run them out of gas, you cannot do that against Rogue (or Demon Hunter and to a degree Elemental Mage).
I just wish we could return back to a time where aggro decks prayed for a strong early curve and if they didn't get it they would lose. Aggro is and always will be important to the game but I don't believe it should completely define the meta like it does now.
All hatred comes from decks being too strong. "Nobody" hates Rogue during those times when Rogue is bad.
Meanwhile, it's also Kyle Fergusson's Banana. One day the internet loves bananas, one day the internet loves bananas. Make up your mind! Of course, it's different people each day.
The point is that rogue was strong when the expansion came out, it's the only pure aggro deck that draws with half of the cards in the deck. After the nerf of secret passage ( 1 mana draw five btw, the most insane card printed ,in my opinion) people stop playing weapon rogue (idk why, maybe 1 mana draw 4 was too bad?). But the card that made this deck was Nitroboost Poison, another insane card that skyrocket the dmg they can deal with just 1 mana. So, they didn't kill the class at all, they just nerfed the most powerful card of the mini set BY FAR, making it harder to corrupt and play. Now, with that in mind maybe rogue is hated because they received, in this expansion, 2 broken cards and because we have 1 way to interact wth the weapon (ooze) and, for most decks, few ways to interact with a stealth board of 3\1. So, imagine playing a control deck, that is obliged to play 2 oozes, hoping to draw them with less card draw than the aggro deck.
I don't understand how do they not run out of gas if they draw their whole deck ?
TEE HEE!
Is the point not that by drawing through their deck they consistently hit the cards needed for their win condition? They don't run out of gas because they've been able to access the tools necessary in order to then end the game.
I would also think that it wasn't quite as literal as 'their entire deck', more a generalisation that they can draw through so much, so often that they don't have the downside of not finding the tools they need, which is something that aggro typically had to consider.
I have a weird feeling about Stealth Rogue.
Usually, when the opponents play a deck, it seems super OP, and then I try it, and it seems mortal.
With Stealth Rogue it's the other way around. When I play against it, it feels kinda week and easily stuffable. When I play with it, it seems nearly unstoppable. I did only play some 20 games with it, but I had a 10+ win streak to legend with it, losing only a few games beforehand.
It is quite a busted deck, but aren't all decks busted these days? I brew a Control Priest deck to try and complete the 'pay life' achievement before rotation, and it made me realize how busted all (other) decks are.
And regarding hate, there's nothing one can do about it. People feel entitled to win and hate pretty much everything that stands in their way. It's a shame, but that's the way it's always been. Maybe we should all learn to meditate more :D
Yeah that is the point. It was a throwaway comment, meant to highlight aggro Rogue's ludicrous card draw (but not meant to be taken literally). They don't actually draw their entire deck (although they can), and you can, with some luck and the right deck, run them out of gas. This is the internet though and PetiteMouche couldn't let go of an opportunity to be pointlessly pedantic.
Classic Face Hunter would run out of cards in their hand as they played primarily for tempo and lacked cheap refills (Quickshot was added later but even that only replaces itself). Hence you would run them out of gas often if you played control (as they would be top decking pretty early into the game and your spells/minions would typically trade better than 1 for 1).
This doesn't happen with aggro Rogue* as both Cutting Class, and Secret Passage can draw a combined total of 10 cards with potentially no tempo loss. Then they can equip another Self Sharpening Sword to start clocking you for 7/8/9 damage. It's very hard to 'out-control' Rogue because of this.
*at least not nearly as often, I shouldn't have to write clarifications like this but apparently I do.
@P4dge It is funny, I 100% disagree with you but you were polite and reasonable so can't dislike you ;) I have come to absolutely loathe the Discover mechanic, it is just so worn out by now, pulling answers out of your ass, it also contributes a lot to the infinite value problem. And while I used to be a hyper-heavy control fan I have started to find such matches tedious and wish for something quick and exciting. I also disagree as to its apparent omnipotence over control, again as I said a few times people can just play it and see that it isn't what it seems on those saltiest of matches. People notice the bad and forget the good, hence hating every class but their own, and maybe even that :P
You are also very adult in realizing that aggro has a place in keeping the meta from becoming too greedy, as I said you'd see a lot more Tickatus without rogue and well we will see if warlock spikes after Thursday.
@eeronblac Actually the deck has a really high skill ceiling. Deciding when to remove a threat and when to push for damage. Finding a path to lethal is often very tricky. When to use Secret Passage. To calculate lethal on the fly since with Pen Flingers and a bunch of cards in hands there are a lot of combinations. There is a lot of subtlety and intricacy to it. It is a lot like old miracle rogue, that is why I love it. It is definitely not face hunter in rogue.
If some bad player were to use this deck like a hammer I don't think they'd leave Silver, definitely not Gold.
Rogue is hated because it is the most obviously broken class of all, just look at high legend rank and the 3 best decks are all Rogue, it's very low iq class. Look at the power levels of the upcoming rogue cards compared to the power levels of Druid for example it's night and day...
Somebody is seriously asking this question? There is just so much wrong with current Rogue archetype (and this is my first and only class I got 1000 wins with).
It completely ignores your opponent - he plays minions? you go face. He clears your board? You go face. He puts taunts in the way? You use sap or 2/1 minion for 1 to get rid of it and you go face.
It is just braindead strategy, which doesnt allow any control/late game decks. Even if you put 2x ooze into your deck and destroy both weapons, he just puts up another one, use poisons and go face. Even if you have milion boardclear, he has invis minions you cant target and he goes face.
The only counterstrategy to Rogue is just to try to survive, unless you go another braindead aggro/token deck.
Honestly I want to make legend this month and I cant, because I keep running into Rogue. Even decks which are specifically designed to counter it have like 50-60% winrate, because it has so much power and damage. With decks like deathrattle hunter I have around 15% winrate (and I got there 2x ooze, 2x explosive trap, Bola, legendary weapon, weapon that spawns 1/1s - 7 cards specifically picked to counter Rogue).
The worst thing is, that Blizzard is even supporting this archetype with more poisons, more weapons (even 2/5 weapon is insane here, because you dont have enough destro for all weapons). This deck is just a joke.
Big problem is, that it doesnt run out of steam - previous aggro decks if they did not kill you by turn 5-6 did have nothing - maybe 1-2 refills. Rogue has endless refill, he can use all 30 cards (and generate more) by turn 8-9. If you get bad draw with aggro hunter, DH, you lose. For rogue, it doesnt matter.
They should nerf secret passage to the ground - 3 mana would be probably fair. Or make it that you discard everything after using secret passage, that would make sense as well.
You can run 2x ooze, but for example by turn 7 other classes (priest, warrior, hunter, shaman) see 3-4 starting cards (2x, if he decides to switch all of them), draw 7 and maybe get 1-2 from draw. Similarly other classes - so best case scenario, he sees 14 cards while mulliganing all hand.
This is something Rogue players dont understand - even if you play all counters and invest 7-8 cards specificall to counter rogue, you will often not find them or you find them at time you dont need them anymore.
Rogue is hated tho class doesn't even have an aoe removal to play control style.