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    posted a message on Hysteria Nerf

    But control wincondition is always make your opponent run out of options. In this or any other game. By default That is how control work. There are some mix like Combo-Control (which is basically control buy always playing for keep the board on check until you have enough resources to combo) or "inevitability" control that is very similar but is more about one card that when you play it wins the game on the spot. Control means to counter your opponent resources until they dont have ways of keep playing/winning.

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on Hysteria Nerf
    Quote from Arrows23 >>
    Quote from Bjornoman >>

    And again you only look at top 1000 legend. those are approx 1000 players, have you ever done any statistics? 1000 players do not represent the 23.5 million players as of februari 11th. I got the stats from hsreplay obviously, but over all ranks not recluded to several players. Yes Priest is more popular than some classes such as shaman, but you don't nerf something because people like playing it. Also overall popularity of priest doesnt even reach 10% how can a class be labeled as most popular?

    Are trolling right? The top 1000 or even better top 100 represent the current meta since those are the best players (high game knowledge). If you are taking into account every ranks in this game you get stats from bronze, silver, gold etc. At those ranks, most people are looking for fast aggro deck in order to climb faster, people usually make tons of misplay etc generally not a good statistical sample. If you are making a statistical analysis you need  clear samples of data and only the top ranked players provide those. After all, there is a reason why you need to get a premium subscribtion at hsreplay in order to get stats from high ranks. 

     false. That is totally false. It matters too little. First: there is like an 80% of players in the game that dont play exactly like this people (for put a random %) Ladder always perform different in the regular ranks because legend is a place where people play in a veeery different way most of the times. They take decisions base on stuff that sometimes is not even related to the Match but external data ("i am playing with this other guy that is running that version of this deck that dont use this card so i dont need to play around it"; is a good example). You cant take decisions base on "how the best players playa against each other" when those guys literally track their decks, the most use recipes, the ones that have certain changes, etc...

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on Rogue is DEAD !

    if with "dead" yo mean: Rogue cant win matches when they totally fall behind and they need to use their resources wisely; them yes, Rogue is "dead" but for any Rogue main or someone that has some interes on learning the class properly? not really. Jendice and Penflinger pre-nerf make the decks soo easy to play and so unfair against almost any matchup that Rogue was the best class of the last expansion by far.  Now the class is still solid but you need to know how to play it.

    Posted in: Standard Format
  • 2

    posted a message on "Tickatus" Destroy Hearthstone ?
    Quote from GiffindexHS >>

    Hi everyone

    I am the one who play hearthstone since first day release until now

    I have all golden card in this game , and every class win more than 1000 - 3000 win

    and I never question about the Card in the game But Today ,

    I have my first question about Hearthstone "When Blizzard nerf Tickatus ?"

    in my opinion "Tickatus" made other class need to be rush 

    because Tickatus has more advantage when vs other class (Control deck)
    (Yesh , sometime other class can beat it, But i talk about more advantage of Tickatus for Control vs other class Control) 

    then other class need to play rush deck in standard to avoid advantage of Tckatus , and this made Standard in this season is the most boring in Hearthstone history.

    I just want to know  "When Blizzard nerf Tickatus ?" 

    Thank you.
    Regards.

     i need to give you: this is probably the best tittle for tickatus random complain.

    Hello, i am a control player, i play control priest sinse the game start. I dont hate tickatus and i accept to lose against control warlock for now. I have like worse problems in this meta to complain that a bad matchups that is designed to be a bad matchup. Good day.

    Posted in: Standard Format
  • 1

    posted a message on Lunacy experience remains the same
    Quote from Kinkyjohnfowler >>

    Well would you mind summarising it for me? In layman terms if possibly, a person of your intellect should be able to do that.

    As from my own anecdotal experience and the data I have seen on HSReplay, it seems clear that the DoL experience is not the same.

     Well if you read how the topic go you will kinda agree that in the end we nailed the subjet. Basically This deck become the main reason why Slow decks cant be played anymore for the time being. That was the point not the "dominance of Mage over the winrates of ladder" but the dominance of mage over the majority of the decks. Is this true or not? You can belive what you want to belive, the numbers show actually that mage is not top tier but its only because of the existence of 3 decks: Paladin, Demon Hunter and Hunter, this are the decks that lower mage winrate. The rest of the decks? cant compete. That is a simple fact: Control warrior loses 70% of the times against mage, Rally priest, HPower Mage, Control Priest, Combo Demon Hunter, The midrange version of Rush Warrior, Secret Rogue, Ramp Druid, New Miracle Rogue, Aggro Shaman...all this decks have less than 50% winrate against Spell-Mage. What decks have more than 50%? Secret Paladin (both versions), Face hunter, Token Druid and Aggro Rogue with weapon.

    4 Decks consistenly winning vs 10 Decks consistenly losing.

    This means Mage is tier 1? not becuase now people mostly play this 4 decks and aggro demon hunter (that has a fair chances of winning but is not consistenly 50%).  What this means is that: this deck as "tier 3" is doing the same job than Paladin Secrets keeping a lot of decks on check. With lunacy, without lunacy, mage is prove to have the Cubelock effect, Cubelock was not a tier 1 deck really, it was tier 2 sometimes worse. But this deck was a problem not because the capacity of hit tier 1 top rank legend 90% winrate against the ladder. But because exclude other decks of the ladder.  Much more decks than the top tiers. The number of players playing Mage will go down? maybe, its also one of the most popular decks right now.  But the damage is already done. People test the first days of the nerf slow decks, they fail and everyone switch to aggro. If mage suddenly stop being play people switch to testing midrange, control again, mage will comeback instanly. We have a deck that dictates: play aggresive or dont play. In this meta.

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 2

    posted a message on Hunter needs to be nerfed
    Quote from THEPG19 >>

    Now with mages and paladins getting a very tiny nerf hunter has become the biggest cancer on ladder, every game is a hunter and the most unfavorable matchup for hunter is hunter mirror where they start 1st.
    It has insane damage from hand and can even go wide on boards with Kolkar Pack Runner.
    Piercing ShotTrampling Rhino make it so that playing minions vs them can also give them lethal.

    I'll probably be downvoted to oblivion but every 2nd game on ladder now is a face hunter.

    With this much damage and burn that they have you'd imagine you can make them run out of steam and cards but with insane amount of card draw they have with TrackingWarsong WranglerQuick Shot and Barak Kodobane, you run out of hp before they run out of steam.

     hunter was dead for almost 2 expansions to be fair. Like yeah is kinda strong now and someone can get salty for that but in reality: its really That strong to call nerf?. I face a lot of hunters today and my winrate was not like 70% or 60% but it feels close to what i feel against Paladin. Is a matchup that you can win with almost any deck. And yeah is hard and yeah hunter has a lot of snowball scenarios but is just a deck that is strong because it has really good cards which is totally fine. Its not like they are doing really unfair stuff.

    Posted in: Standard Format
  • 0

    posted a message on Card Draw Needs the "Charge Treatment"
    Quote from Platy >>
    Quote from 3nnu1 >>

    I would love to see a card like black vise from MTG that punishes large hand sizes. 

     Well, mindrender is one of them. It is nice to swap with someone with a big hand, so you have a bigger variety of options. Plus, if opponent is mage, most cards are discounted and you can throw cheap fireballs in their face. 

    Cards like mukka which flood their hand with bananas or draw cards for opponents like the new Southsea Scoundred can also make them mill cards when timed well. I used Zephyr before to get Mukka sometimes. 

     Mindrender cost literally too much to actually punish hyper hands. You want to take key cards, disrupt your oponent strategy but work with only 7 mana most of the times (And your oponent with 10) is pretty...inefficientt. It works and is great against some combos but in general is too fair.

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on Priest and discover are broken
    Quote from eskimodavid >>

     

    I don't feel like looking up the other card names but this is *. Only class that ends up with more cards in hand after playing cards. Discover is * and once pally and mage get nerfs priest is going to be even more cancer

     Have you played against or with Demon Hunter lately?. Literally one of the big problems of priest right now is exactly that you have to relay on discover when other classes have a lot of just straighfoward good cards for any situation. Priest spells are really, really, really situationals and care about the board context. So you cant just main deck most of them, you dont want to draw Holy Nova or Shadow Word: Ruin. Even cards loke Apotheosis or SW: Death (cut to 1 or 0 copy in a lot of decks) that are actually included on the main decks feels so bad when you put them on your hand too early and you dont have any use to them until turn 6 or 7. I am not saying that those cards sucks or most Priest spells sucks, our spells are great but in the right situation or they are just dead cards in other good amoun of cases.

    Without the access that Priest has to almost any spell of the class well...the decks would be even worse that they are in this very moment.

    Posted in: Priest
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    posted a message on Card Draw Needs the "Charge Treatment"
    Quote from Bengalaas >>
    Quote from HeilKise >>.

    blablabla

     The problem however is not the concept of these cards, but their current iteration. Priest needs a little push to become competitive against aggro decks and then we can have games with a lot of back and forth and plenty of meaningful decisions.

    You can already see that happen in tournaments where players have to bring more than two classes, so we get to see more evenly matched decks fight.

    I prefer that to the times of mech mage, or the original Secret Paladin, when every game was just 6-7 turns of immense pressure and then "gg, go next".

     That is not the point. Warrior is as hopeless as priest in control terms. Where was the last time where you see a read midrange or control deck on ladder? No slow combo decks, not tempo decks with low curve, not decks that try to go all-in or go into the next match as the new rush warrior. A real get value on curve deck or a real control deck. Sinse...ah galakrond decks? they the were pretty lackluster. So its not a problem that can be solve just "pushing a little" some archtypes its about REALLY fix a lot of stuff that is being overpushed in this last 2 expansion (ignoring madness that really do nothing except tickatus).

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on Card Draw Needs the "Charge Treatment"
    Quote from Lanko >>
    Quote from Bengalaas >>

    The concept of aggro going all in and running out of resources and control being on the back foot all game until finally stabilizing is outdated and boring. Even MtG has moved away from it.

    The more cards players draw, the more choices they will have to make, making the game potentially much more dynamic.

    As a tradeoff, most control decks now have access to either early counterplay, absurd amounts of healing or both.

    The biggest downside of taking the game into overdrive like that is that balancing cards is now harder than ever and any slight imbalance can snowball out of control.

     This pretty much.

    Most removals come attached with a tempo swing as well, like Prize Plunderer, Xyrella, Samuro, even previously with Skipper + Brute, Altruis turns or Brooms. Or super cheap like Cascading or Death that are cheap enough to allow development.

    Probably the Zoolock of the previous exp had legit too much card draw (and Rogue now), and Zoo now it's a deck with so little it loses to the first board clear that is used. A never ending torrent of vomit is not fun, but auto losing to te first board clear played it's not fun or compelling gameplay either.

     of this 3 only Samuro retains varely 50% winrate. Which means that they are not great anymore and is not a suprise. Xyrella was honestly pretty good the first weeks when people was not playing the M deck (i am not going to talk about the M class in this topic) or Paladin that much. Paladin was kind of weak to Xyrella and still is but lets see...at this point Desperate Prayers, the card that makes Xyrella work really well against aggro and high roll decks, is cut from most Priest decks (because it does nothing anymore). Xyrella is a very hard to set-up card and very obvius too. If on turn 3 you are hitting priest in the face pretty hand and he dont uses his hero power is obviusly because he is holding Xyrella and he needs to heal for more than 3 (cause Xyrella dont count over healing). Samuro is too slow in Warrior and Priest now, is mostly use in Paladin to counter Hunter because paladin has 0 cost buff without any set-up.

    They can throw samuro in any turn and Prize Plunderer is not that good on the rogue decks even when penflinger is "ultra nerf" you can do the same damage with pen most of the times but you can hold the card in your hand so you can use it for multiple problems without wasting yours Shadowsteps. Funny enough removal cards attached to great offensive stats are doing pretty well because you know offensive stats win games when you never runout of cards in your hand.

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on Card Draw Needs the "Charge Treatment"
    Quote from Bengalaas >>

    The concept of aggro going all in and running out of resources and control being on the back foot all game until finally stabilizing is outdated and boring. Even MtG has moved away from it.

    The more cards players draw, the more choices they will have to make, making the game potentially much more dynamic.

    As a tradeoff, most control decks now have access to either early counterplay, absurd amounts of healing or both.

    The biggest downside of taking the game into overdrive like that is that balancing cards is now harder than ever and any slight imbalance can snowball out of control.

     The concept of making cards whic effects are literally: dealt direct damage and draw 1 card. Its also boring and a lot of games are moving on from that kind of aggro and divide Direct damage aggresive decks from wide-board aggro decks but not here for now. Which is a problem beacause that simple design reward straighfoward and very linear gameplan. In other hand healing and gain armor cards in this game do pretty little and are very inconsistent. Lets take Renew for example. Right now Priest dont have consistent AoE to dealt with the kind of boardstates that the game propose (right Defense stat minions with 3 to 4 attack for the most part of the game and only one of two minions with more than 5 attack. Condemn is a great card in a universe where your oponnent cant play 2 buffing spells before turn 5 in the same turn and push all the minions on board to 3 or 5 defense and 3 or 4 attack. But in this universe there is atleast 2 classes (hunter and Druid, specialy druid) that can do that which also plays around Hysteria cause playing Hysteria to kill 1 or 2 minions max, against aggro for 3 mana is kinda lose the game.

    But you know what classes cant play around Hysteria and Condemn pretty well? Warrior and Priest. Which is hilarius and is one of the reasons why beat Warlock with this 2 is almost impossible even if you buff minions in the midgame (talking abot hysteria). Buut lets go back to the main topic.

     

    So if aggro decks have efficient card draw and efficient straigfoward "push damage" cards. Control classes become useless. Cause Gaining HP is ALWAYS worse that push damage unless the oponent empty his hand. That is the main reason of the low cost of most healing spells in any card game. Healing is just delaying damage, dealt damage is winning the game. I could have an spell with the same effect than reno jackson without the body and it wont be broken, it would be bad in most cases unless the meta is really lacking of card draw, because 6 mana do nothing and restore all your HP is useless if my oponent still have 6 minions on board with 3 or 4 attack.  So either you make super broken defensive cards or you keep on check the power of proactive cards. You cant have both: weak defensive tools and strong proactive tools; and said that "is good because it feels bad go into top decks"

    =============================================================

    @PetiteMouche

    The problem is that what you said is good but dont work like that in reality. Let me explain: if all the classes have very good card draw them defensive clases or the less proactive clases (like shaman) will be weak forever. Why? Well i explain this in the first half of the post. Defensive tools are by default weaker even when they can feel busted in some scenarios, than proactive tools. In any game where aggro dont run out of cards and neither control does, aggro will win more than 60% of the time. Always. Unless is really, really hopeless in the lategame which is not the case becas right now late game for aggro is not bad at all neither. Like for example i never run out of cards with my main decks (Warrior control and Priest control) but that is not the problem when i lose a game. The problem is that my gameplan of healing, create one or two big units, kill the enemy units and end the game when i get to that point wont work when Demon hunter (just for put a very obvius example in this meta) has a weapon that let him buff his attack to infinite, then play a minion with great stats and rush, clear my taunt, clear my big unit and then attack my face with his ultra buffed hero attack and them with his 8/8 minion all that on the same turn. What i do to keep that in control? I kill the unit, recover as much HP i can and them he plays skull of guldamn and process to do the same in one or two turns and...i lose. With big taunts, with 25 points of healing, with my wincondition on board. I just lose, because he never will run out of face damage or cards in hand.

     

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 1

    posted a message on Card Draw Needs the "Charge Treatment"
    Quote from PetiteMouche >>

    Card draw on its own is fine in my opinion, I don't mind if there is "too much" of it. It's always the worst feeling when you are in topdeck mode and the opponent isn't, and if one class that isn't warlock can draw their entire deck with ease, then all classes should be able to.

     

     Yeah but you need to look at this from a balance perspective. Its not funny when Hunter or Demon Hunter or Paladin go into top deck mode and they pretty much lose because of that (pretty rare situation btw). But...that is supposed to be the weakness of decks that go into hard aggresive mode. If you can hold infinite resources in your hand (like paladin) or just draw 2 cards into 1 card into 3 cards (like Demon Hunter) them...what is the point of playing to outlast them? cofcoformagebutidontwanttotalkaboutmageinthistopiccofcof . Like...that is how you beat those decks if your finishers are not comming or they are not fast enough? Its kinda hard for other classes like Warrior or Shaman to beat Demon hunter for example, when that class can get 10 Hero Attack damage with a 2 card hand and also draw cards in the process. Sometimes play big taunts seems like really pointless in this cases.

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 0

    posted a message on Lunacy experience remains the same
    Quote from Kinkyjohnfowler >>

    Deck of Lunacy is in 4.1% of decks from Diamond 4-1. It’s in 3% of Legend decks.

    That’s since the balance patch, if we look over the last day then it drops to 3.4% Diamond 4-1 and 2.6% Legend.

    It’s pretty clear that this card has an extremely marginal effect on the viability of control decks.

     That tells me nothing when you can also know that Legend is not the same meta as the rest fo the ladder. Let me explain starting with Diamond: in diamond you will find...0 control decks (maybe warlock has still good presence) why? because to scale over the mages you need to play aggro or paladin. Case solve. Now Legend: A lot of people make the mistake of compare the rest of the game with Legend. Legend is a whole different world, most Legend decks dont work in the same way on the rest of the ladder. People always upload their 60% - 70% - whatever high winrate % list of rank 1 legend whenever they get good luck on Legend and when you test those decks you go into 45-50% winrate.

    Why ? BECAUSE LEGEND PLAYERS PLAY IN A DIFFERENT WAY. Decision making is different, Ladder mentality is more straighfoward, people play more defensive on Legends and more offensive in Gold-Plat-Diamond. More thinking is not always good specially if the goal is get more wins. More risk = more wins if you matches are shorter. So yeah on legend you can play almost everything and get possitive winrates that are kind of inconsistent with the rest of the game. I can spam face hunter all the way to Legend them change to spell priest and upload a list with 55% winrate in 10 matches or something like that against mage if i play enough on legend.

    That means something? no, because i am pretty that i will lose more than 5 matches if i play the same deck on Diamond. Same goes for Tempo decks. You see People playing Zoo this days on Gold, Plat or Diamond? nope, it dont make any sense cause tempo sucks against Mage and Paladin. So In the ladder Tempo and Slow decks are trash right now? yes, why? because they dont have any good matchup, Paladin is bad for them, mage is bad for them and some builds have problems dealing with hunter and demon hunter too. That is why Warrior, Shaman, Rogue and Priest have very low Play rate right now.

     

    Fast example: someone upload a control warrior deck in high legend with a good winrate. If you take that deck right now to the ladder and you play 50 matches tomorrow with a control warrior list your winrate will be possitive? probably if you are really good (and really lucky) with the deck but if other 10 players do the experiment i am pretty sure like really sure that more than 5 of them will get destroyed. Literally destroyed.

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 1

    posted a message on Lunacy experience remains the same
    Quote from Hooghout >>
    Quote from Anarchy1 >>

    The last post is straight up arrogant. So what you really say is : everybody who doesn’t share my opinion on tick is a stupid aggro player

     Not a stupid aggro player but a stupidified aggro player. There is a difference if you just want to see it.

    What people will do even compromising their own integrity just to rank up.

     

     Well in strategy games if you there is a lot of stuff that defined a good player. None of those is just "go for the best and always win" Some games are more limited than others and yeah you are right in the sense of "well just stop playing tempo decks and control decks, just play what is good" but that not means that is right to support this kind of metas where you force 2 archtypes (and with that you kick 6 or more different types of decks) out the game almost literally. Which is my point. and the reason of this topic. People go and claim that i am wrong or lying but they just give the reason in the end: was the meta before the nerfs play aggro, paladin or mage? yes, is still the meta now? yeah, them yes the experience is the same. 

    As i said even if you can see some red numbers on mages now that everyone surrender to paladin and hunter in second place, the deck still retains one of the highes play rate of the game in this moment. And still has very green numbers on any tempo and control deck. Priest, Warrior, Druid, whatever that is not really aggro. So what change? nothing really even without the nerf its very probably that the meta in this moment would be the same. The options are the same. The oppresive experience is the same. Do you remember why they nerf Cube lock and that kind of decks in the past right? Other decks like Ques Rogue where also overnerfed. Why? because they lock too much decks out the ladder, they need very specifict stuff to get totally counter, and they are really unfun for a good amount of players to play against.

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 3

    posted a message on Lunacy experience remains the same
    Quote from Slvrshot >>

    Hunter has overtaken Rogue and Mage. If it weren't for Paladin we'd be back to Aggro Hunterstone...AGAIN

     well you answer yourself for me. Basically yeah hunter destroy mages. But Mage have more better matches than face hunter. Paladin keeps hunter on check and mage destroy anything that is not fast enough. Paladin protects mage, Mage protects Paladin. None of this decks benefit hunter. So yeah Mage > Hunter in terms of matchups. When you talk about meta you need to take in account how many matches the deck wins not just if there is a deck that is a good counter. I can ensure you that if mage was not popular slower decks and more midrange decks could see way more play even with Hunter and Paladin on the ladder. But you Mage is absurdly good against both: late game and mid game decks.

     

    So this is a meta were you play Paladin or you go face unless you want to lose to Mage. "But mage in hersey is note as a tier 3 deck right now" yeah with a 14% play rate, almost 3 times the playrate do Demon hunter and priest, 6 times the play rate of Druid, a loooot more than Shaman, Rogue and Warrior. What all this classes have in common except for demon hunter? they DONT have a deck that dealts with mage. So by high rank numbers you can said "yeah spell mage dont seem that great" but in reality, its a deck that alone denegates 5 classes (druid can only success with token druid btw). 5 classes, for a "tier 3 deck" that has a bad winrate only because of Paladin and Hunter and still against those two it keeps a 50% winrate.

    Posted in: General Discussion
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