I think that main reason why people complain so much about the game lies in Blizzard's approach with Hearthstone toward it's audience. Hearthstone is promoted as a f2p game but in reality, just like any other "free" game out there, it's everything but free. In short, it's a legal scam.
When you start playing the game, you do get some free stuff (to get you hooked), but soon you realize that you won't get far if you don't start spending money. It's what I call a drug dealer approach - first few bags are on the house but after you get addicted, it's time to pay and pay a lot. Time is at least as valuable as money (to me personally it's way more valuable), so don't fool yourself into thinking that if you're spending more time in game grinding resources that you're not paying.
This is absolute nonsense. I started buying expansion deals a few years ago, but have been playing since around the time Blackrock Mountain was released. I was a diligent but not-particularly-skilled player committed to being f2p. I didn't have the money to buy stuff. But I worked. I saved up my gold and dust. I didn't craft every cool legendary just because "I like this character in WoW." (In fact, I've never played WoW. The characters and names in HS mean exactly nothing to me.) I played budget versions of meta decks if I didn't have all the legendaries/ epics required, and I wound up not playing some decks that absolutely required cards I couldn't afford. In short, I acted like a grownup and lived on a budget. In that time, I managed to amass about 14K dust while occasionally crafting a high-priority, powerful card in a deck I really wanted to play.
People can and do succeed as f2p. But, if someone's not willing to a) spend money or time; AND b) live on a budget, then quite frankly they don't deserve to succeed. They are, as OP said, acting like an entitled little punk. (And I DO know what entitled means, and chose that term deliberately.) Why should they have access to the same decks I have, when I've actually spent (quite modest, actually) money and they've spent neither money nor time? How is that fair?
100% agree... Homie there probably is one of the ones who dust normal legendaries for 400 dust... I did played as a f2p before, since I also didn't have money to spend on this game, and I could play some budget meta decks...
Daily quests + Tavern Brawls + Special events/quest + Dust from golden repeated cards can lead you to a few thousands of dust...
God this is sad. The state of this community these days is pathetic. Remember in Rise of Shadows, when, out of the blue, blizz just updated the game, completely unprompted, buffing a bunch of old cards from Boomsday and adding in a FREE legendary for everyone? Not like Sathrovarr either, a free GOOD legendary, that fit into tons of decks. Yeah, I guess we just don't deserve that. We're all just simpering little piggies. We don't deserve to play good games unless we're willing to pay a hundred dollars for them every few months.
I don't think I've ever seen a community whipped this bad. I guess everyone who can't afford such expensive opinions moved onto games they "deserve". What other community pays as much as people pay to play this game "competitively" and complains that people don't want to pay more? They should introduce a premium version of this game where I can pay even more to show those disgusting, sniveling, poor piles of crap how much less they deserve than me. We're in the middle of a pandemic that lost people their jobs, the global economy is in worse shape than ever, and blizz is hunkering down, making even less actual free to play content than they ever have, but no, the real problem is the poor little piggies who can't shell out as much money as you do.
I have plenty of games I can be competitive in. The most I've "sacrificed" for it is 60 dollars. Lots of people can't even afford to "sacrifice" that much. Maybe when you complain about people not wanting to get scammed a hundred dollars a set for a game marketed towards children and designed to exploit people with gambling addictions, think about whether you actually "deserve" what you have, and no, I'm not just talking about your premium sparkly pixels.
Wow, must be nice to be so morally superior. Neither OP nor those of us who agree with him said that f2p "don't deserve to play good games unless we're willing to pay a hundred dollars for them every few months." What he pointed out is that, if you won't/ can't spend the money, your only other option is to play more to make up for it. To that, I would add that you also need to play on a budget. And if you can't do those things, then either HS is not the game for you or you need to make due with a rather small number of decks. (Something I did for literally years.) The fact is f2p players can succeed: the fact that you refuse to acknowledge that shows that you want something for nothing. Guess what: that may work with Mommy, but it doesn't in the real world.
I thought, I should add something substantial to the topic, instead of just assaulting the OP. BUT I don't really want to repeat myself saying the same things over and over again.
So, instead, I went through my posting history and dug up a few entries. This collection covers pretty much all I have to say regarding the game's economy, F2P economy, suggestions to improve it, debates on whether these suggestions are inappropriate, debates on this message board in general, and why I think the old saying of "Blizzard is a company" misses the point. Hopefully, it gives an impression of WHY I'm sick of these debates as well.
Some of it might not seem fitting to this discussion, but it will, at least in parts, reflect on what I had to criticize about the opening post.
This is not a complete history, since I'm not in the mood to go through over a thousand postings. Also, there are probably a few things in there that I wouldn't say the same way again nowadays, but it already took me over half an hour going through this, and it would take much longer to discuss my own stuff in detail.
Sorry that I only insert links here, but as the interested reader will see and might have guessed already, they are rather lengthy (shocking, I know), and it's too much to insert in here.
Given the OP's name, I'm severely disappointed that no one has used the phrase, "you can't have your cake and eat it too". What's a world without good idioms... and cake.
I thought, I should add something substantial to the topic, instead of just assaulting the OP. BUT I don't really want to repeat myself saying the same things over and over again.
So, instead, I went through my posting history and dug up a few entries. This collection covers pretty much all I have to say regarding the game's economy, F2P economy, suggestions to improve it, debates on whether these suggestions are inappropriate, debates on this message board in general, and why I think the old saying of "Blizzard is a company" misses the point. Hopefully, it gives an impression of WHY I'm sick of these debates as well.
Some of it might not seem fitting to this discussion, but it will, at least in parts, reflect on what I had to criticize about the opening post.
This is not a complete history, since I'm not in the mood to go through over a thousand postings. Also, there are probably a few things in there that I wouldn't say the same way again nowadays, but it already took me over half an hour going through this, and it would take much longer to discuss my own stuff in detail.
Sorry that I only insert links here, but as the interested reader will see and might have guessed already, they are rather lengthy (shocking, I know), and it's too much to insert in here.
You are the same as any other entitled brat, but just trying to hide behind more refined grammar and diction. If anything it makes you more obnoxious, speaking as if you are level-headed and educated, but ultimately no better than every other whiny 16 year old cut off from their parent's credit card.
And yeah this is one big ad hominem post, but I'm jaded enough by now to know "your type" and know that there is no logic to be worth sharing with you so this will simply have to do. Keep writing novels on the game's "economy" though as if you have any idea what you're talking about. I'm sure you'll be the face of the F2P socialist revolution one day.
This is a very common philosophy, which can be seen basically everywhere. From work to private life and then games like hearthstone. I don't want to over-complicate the matter at hand, but it is a fact that the majority of the society thinks they deserve more than they actually do. A very simple example could be a common approach of overweight people, who often (I don't want to insult anyone but it is a fact that it happens pretty unrarely) think they should look like Arnold Schwarzenegger just because they stopped eating at McDonald's. The same goes for work, where many strongly believe they should get a pay raise without actually putting any effort in it. I'm not saying everyone is like that, but it is common. The issue with hearthstone doesn't lie with the community, which behaves in accordance to the human instinct of overvaluating themselves, but rather with the developers. Many other companies learned the tricks, which they use in making people believe they are being given gifts by the game. For instance in Brawl Stars (a popular mobile game) the chances of getting a good character are being increased with each box you open without receiving any. In short that is a psychological trick, thanks to which even players who spend money and don't get "good drops" are made to calm down, because "at least they will get it sooner than later now". Hearthstone on the other hand has a logically better pity timer, which however doesn't suit well with the player's emotions. In practice it's always better to tell people "you will get it soon" than "you will get it in the next 40 packs". It may sound irrational, but I am sure you must have had that kind of thought at some point.
*Also leaving aside psychology and philosophy, the prices are significantly too high ^_^ *
The issue, in my opinion, is not that Hearthstone "costs money". It is that the value proposition of Hearthstone is much, much worse than other digital CGs on the market.
Maybe the new progression system will improve things, I don't know. However, as of today, why would I grind for hours to build one deck of choice in HS, when I can play every deck I want in Legends of Runeterra, for example?
Again, I have no issue with paying for a digital CG. I have done in the past and will do again in the future. But, when I do pay, I want good value for money and, currently, the value offered by Hearthstone is very poor (compared to its competition).
The issue, in my opinion, is not that Hearthstone "costs money". It is that the value proposition of Hearthstone is much, much worse than other digital CGs on the market.
Maybe the new progression system will improve things, I don't know. However, as of today, why would I grind for hours to build one deck of choice in HS, when I can play every deck I want in Legends of Runeterra, for example?
Again, I have no issue with paying for a digital CG. I have done in the past and will do again in the future. But, when I do pay, I want good value for money and, currently, the value offered by Hearthstone is very poor (compared to its competition).
So go play the competition.
I love how everyone prefaces their arguments with "While I agree with your points...." or "I don't mind paying money but...." as if it validates the worthless dribble that immediately follows.
It's really much more simple than your flawed opinion of what constitutes "good value": If the game did not provide good value to consumers, it wouldn't make money, and it would be a failure. Seeing as how that's now the situation though seems to suggest they are doing just fine and it's you who has the problem, not Blizzard. Unless you are somehow actually trying to suggest that the vast majority of people don't mind pissing away their hard earned money on something that they truly believe isn't worth it to them, which obviously makes no fucking sense at all.
I think that main reason why people complain so much about the game lies in Blizzard's approach with Hearthstone toward it's audience. Hearthstone is promoted as a f2p game but in reality, just like any other "free" game out there, it's everything but free. In short, it's a legal scam.
When you start playing the game, you do get some free stuff (to get you hooked), but soon you realize that you won't get far if you don't start spending money. It's what I call a drug dealer approach - first few bags are on the house but after you get addicted, it's time to pay and pay a lot. Time is at least as valuable as money (to me personally it's way more valuable), so don't fool yourself into thinking that if you're spending more time in game grinding resources that you're not paying.
This is absolute nonsense. I started buying expansion deals a few years ago, but have been playing since around the time Blackrock Mountain was released. I was a diligent but not-particularly-skilled player committed to being f2p. I didn't have the money to buy stuff. But I worked. I saved up my gold and dust. I didn't craft every cool legendary just because "I like this character in WoW." (In fact, I've never played WoW. The characters and names in HS mean exactly nothing to me.) I played budget versions of meta decks if I didn't have all the legendaries/ epics required, and I wound up not playing some decks that absolutely required cards I couldn't afford. In short, I acted like a grownup and lived on a budget. In that time, I managed to amass about 14K dust while occasionally crafting a high-priority, powerful card in a deck I really wanted to play.
People can and do succeed as f2p. But, if someone's not willing to a) spend money or time; AND b) live on a budget, then quite frankly they don't deserve to succeed. They are, as OP said, acting like an entitled little punk. (And I DO know what entitled means, and chose that term deliberately.) Why should they have access to the same decks I have, when I've actually spent (quite modest, actually) money and they've spent neither money nor time? How is that fair?
You've accepted Hearthstone as it is and adapted to it as best as you could. You've worked hard, spent resources wisely and didn't complain about anything. Congratulations! But I don't understand why you call my post nonsense, when you've done nothing but proved my point that Hearthstone is "falsely" advertised as f2p game because in reality it's everything but free. Yes, you showed with your example that one can have a taste of what game has to offer without spending any money, but if you want to have fun (and in my opinion playing a game is about having a fun) in a long run, there's no other way but to pay for it either with money or with your time.
problem is bli$$ is not valuing the time one (be him/she a f2p or a p2p player) spends in this game...
Why would a business -- any business -- value customers that spend zero money...That's why businesses have frequent customer rewards because they value the people that spend money.
Also I havent invalidated any part of my argument because I clearly stated that, in the absence of money, time and dedication are just as important but few seem to want to give those either. "Give nothing, get something" doesn't exist in the real world and it certainly doesn't exist in the business world.
I can't tell if you're being deliberately disingenuous here, or not.
As far as the first part is concerned, people who play without giving Blizzard Cash Money Dollars are still paying. With their Time and Attention. They have become part of The Product (tm). They are the very same people who will go online, and copy the cheapest, yet most competitive deck, and let it pilot them to victory. These people are also part of the product. Free-to-play players are a function of the ecosystem. Blizzard replies on these people to farm dissatisfaction from other, paying players, to spend more money.
The second part is just fundamentally wrong, I'm sorry to say. Anyone who refutes your argument is accepting the premise of it. Which is just classic debate-bounding. Which is also to say, the premise of trading card games, microtransactions, and net-decking.
Your original post is thoughtful, and worth considering. But is still just semantic skin over an observably flawed skeleton.
Let me play devils advocate. I pay a lot more taxes than the average person, because I make more money, do I P2W at life? How come I am not more competitive at everything than the people I make more money than? How come I don't always win a poker even though I bring alot more cash to the game? This makes no sense under the pretense of your argument.
I see this as a troll thread at best, why even create this thread other than to stir the pot and attack players with a different opinion?
Most players who take issue with devs adding cost structures is the slippery slope theory and catering to the lowest common denominator. Bad players who can buy benefits, whales and ultimately share holders. All this takes precedence over quality. Time spent on creating these income systems by T5 rather than quality on the game. Look at GGG as dev company that spends more time making MTX than fixing their BETA league bugs and investing in better servers.
A great example in HS is Blizzard constantly gating "new" content or "beta" content behind real money purchases so players can PAY to test FOR Blizzard. Yet they haven't spent time fixing the near unplayable Arena or imbalanced Rank meta. They add new modes and invite purchases to gain added access (increased chances in game like 4 hero options in BG) or access in general.
TL:DR
Moderator makes bait/troll thread, wins the forum. Read some of the OPs short post history. Often is confrontentional with their responses or argumentative. It no surprise they made this thread.
Let me play devils advocate. I pay a lot more taxes than the average person, because I make more money, do I P2W at life? How come I am not more competitive at everything than the people I make more money than? How come I don't always win a poker even though I bring alot more cash to the game? This makes no sense under the pretense of your argument.
I see this as a troll thread at best, why even create this thread other than to stir the pot and attack players with a different opinion?
Most players who take issue with devs adding cost structures is the slippery slope theory and catering to the lowest common denominator. Bad players who can buy benefits, whales and ultimately share holders. All this takes precedence over quality. Time spent on creating these income systems by T5 rather than quality on the game. Look at GGG as dev company that spends more time making MTX than fixing their BETA league bugs and investing in better servers.
A great example in HS is Blizzard constantly gating "new" content or "beta" content behind real money purchases so players can PAY to test FOR Blizzard. Yet they haven't spent time fixing the near unplayable Arena or imbalanced Rank meta. They add new modes and invite purchases to gain added access (increased chances in game like 4 hero options in BG) or access in general.
TL:DR
Moderator makes bait/troll thread, wins the forum. Read some of the OPs short post history. Often is confrontentional with their responses or argumentative. It no surprise they made this thread.
You know I was going to flame you....but the fact that you actually said that you should win more at poker because you bring more money to the table was about the biggest self-proclamation of your stupidity possible. (And also shows that you literally don't play poker, but nice job trying to sound cool lmfao).
Ignore all of the Devil’s advocates in the thread. This isn’t even a debate, author is 100% correct.
Those of you arguing his point saying things in the vein of “LOL at comparing to sports” or whatever else prove you actually have nothing of weight to base your argument on. Or you have no idea what an analogy is.
We live in an entitled world, and wanting everything for free is the embodiment of entitlement.
There is actually no realistic argument to counter the “there are other, fully free to play games you can play” argument. There is emotion-based rhetoric, but no actual counter argument.
If a company wants to charge money for their product, that is 100% their prerogative. As it is 100% your prerogative to spend that money, spend your time, or not consume the product at all.
I have both created and read posts pertaining to this exact same sentiment for years, and not once have I seen a counter argument that any logic minded person would deem appropriate.
If you don’t like the methods provided in order to obtain the product available, do not participate. Literally that simple.
It was a hypothetical, as stated Devils Advocate. Of course you shouldn't win at poker just because you came to a table with a deeper stack... The fact you read that seriously, even when it was stated it wasn't is pretty funny.
Using poker as an example wasn't ment to be cool, nor do I have a clue why you would think that. Using poker as an example is meant to show money and entitlement does not equate to specific outcomes or expected outcomes.
I'm glad you came into the thread just to flame me though. Very constructive post, very worthwhile.
You do realize how long it takes to get 30 wins a day right? The problem isn't with hearthstone making money, it's the way that they're scamming money. For example, the dust that you get from destroying a card is worth about a 4th of what it cost to create it. So if you pay say 1.50 for 1 pack, you get 4 commons and one rare, and they're all extra duplicates, then you just payed for a total of 40 dust. Congratulations! You can craft one common card!
In general OP is correct although it's surprising that a forum mod would post something with such an antagonistic tone. There is a misconception that Hearthstone is free to play. It is but only in a small way. The only way anyone can realistically keep up with the meta without spending money is to play a lot and to be very careful with their crafting and de'ing. Otherwise it just isn't feasible.
To me Hearthstone is a free to try game. There's a big difference between free to try and free to play. When I first started playing HS I never thought I would actually spend money on the game. But after a few months of playing and enjoying it I decided to start buying packs. Maybe a decision I'll regret in a few years but I'm having fun right now!
HS Is not a cheap game. Keeping up with the new sets requires a considerable investment several times a year. Right now I'm OK with that because I enjoy the game. But it is very close to becoming too expensive to justify.
As difficult as being f2p must be, at least you can still enjoy the game to some extent without spending money on it. That's something at least. You may not be able to play every deck you'd like to and sometimes you may not have every legendary or epic you need to make a top tier deck but you can get by just fine. There are many games out there that you have to buy first in order to play but HS isn't one of them. Blizzard has been generous with free stuff like packs when a new set launches, 5 free legendries with Galakrond, Silias, Sn1p-Sn4p etc. They don't have to do that.
If you don't or can't spend money on the game and don't have the time to grind everyday that's fine. Just know that the rewards will be limited and you may not be able to fully enjoy the game like those who do spend money on it. That's OK imo.
So, I've been around Hearthstone since the beginning, and one thing that's never changed is that any time something costs money, the floodgates open, and a deluge of complaints descend upon every hearthstone forum in existence. I have never understood the juxtapositioning of "I don't want to spend money" with "I want to be competitive." These two philosophies simply do not go together.
This is also true in other forms of competition. If you play tennis, for example, hard work and practice will get you most of the way there, but players who spend on the best rackets, the best shoes, and the best coaching will have a significant advantage over those who do not. My personal belief is that what SOME of these perennial complainers really mean is "I don't want to spend money, but I DESERVE to be competitive." This way of thinking belongs in the trash can with other phrases of the entitled such as "I don't want to study, but deserve an A+" and "I don't want to work, but deserve to be wealthy."
You are NOT entitled to free gaming, and if that's what you desire, there are plenty of games where you can do just that (including some of the game modes of Hearthstone, by the way) not to mention that there are legitimate players who grind daily and DO NOT spend money, but instead sacrifice their time, in order to get what they need to stay competitive.
So, in conclusion, if you don't want to put in the time OR the money, then what are you even complaining about?
TL/DR: You can't be competitive without sacrifice, so if you aren't sacrificing anything, stop complaining about it being unfair.
If Blizzard had this approach from the begining. F2p players would have simply bypassed the game, no harm no foul. Just like I bypass games like star wars battlefront who insert ridiculous p2w nonsense into their games. By changing the essential deal that blizzard made with players at the begining, they have broken faith with them and deserve the criticism they get.
Anyone who has been an athlete knows that having money for coaching and equiptment is a luxury and gives you competitive advantage. But the real factor that determines an outcome in a sport is ability and dedication. The rest simply enhances it. To compare hearthstone to athletics is a joke. Hearthstone is a slot machine disguised as a game that tries to motivate you to spend money on it. To think that money spent is the defining characteristic of athletic competition is a sign that the OP has never had any type of success as an athlete.
A shift to a system which destroys f2p viability is a sign that blizzard has given up on growing their game, they will simply be focused on extracting maximum dollars from the p2w suckers who are prey to the fallacy of sunk cost. This game will continue to lose it's player base and that will accelerate next year unless blizzard changes their policies. But maybe this game has been beyond saving for a long time and blizzard knows that already. Thus the current approach makes perfect sense.
hey.... u have a solid point .. however u can never compare studying, wealth or tennis to an online game.... because not only does tennis improve your body fitness but it also grants u immense amounts of fun and u can get rewards furthermore we have studying.. now dont even compare playing a card game which will get u nowhere to studying because studying can pretty much change ur life if u spend ur time but if u spend ur time on the card game whats gonna happen? the best thing to support what im saying is.. LOR legends of runeterra .... i basically play only one game a day maybe dont even play at all at some days.. and im filthy rich without spending a single penny i have all the cards in the game and 20k shards.... ik how u feel because i was once addicted to the game and tried to come up with anything to defend it as a game however believe me this game is a total waste of time... u need to grind nonstop and u can barely get any cards even if u grind ... if ur f2p u can barely get a proper deck with grinding... not grinding wont get u anywhere then what? ur deck became outdated u need a new one?! man im sorry to tell but ur hugely mistaken..
A fundamental problem of the game is that you are paying to "collect" things that aren't real. With normal trading card games you have physical copies that you can trade/sell/do whatever. Here, you will lose everything if you either get banned or if Blizz decides to permanently shut down the servers.
I would be all in for a monthly paid subscription model that gave you access to all cards.
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100% agree... Homie there probably is one of the ones who dust normal legendaries for 400 dust... I did played as a f2p before, since I also didn't have money to spend on this game, and I could play some budget meta decks...
Daily quests + Tavern Brawls + Special events/quest + Dust from golden repeated cards can lead you to a few thousands of dust...
Wow, must be nice to be so morally superior. Neither OP nor those of us who agree with him said that f2p "don't deserve to play good games unless we're willing to pay a hundred dollars for them every few months." What he pointed out is that, if you won't/ can't spend the money, your only other option is to play more to make up for it. To that, I would add that you also need to play on a budget. And if you can't do those things, then either HS is not the game for you or you need to make due with a rather small number of decks. (Something I did for literally years.) The fact is f2p players can succeed: the fact that you refuse to acknowledge that shows that you want something for nothing. Guess what: that may work with Mommy, but it doesn't in the real world.
I thought, I should add something substantial to the topic, instead of just assaulting the OP. BUT I don't really want to repeat myself saying the same things over and over again.
So, instead, I went through my posting history and dug up a few entries. This collection covers pretty much all I have to say regarding the game's economy, F2P economy, suggestions to improve it, debates on whether these suggestions are inappropriate, debates on this message board in general, and why I think the old saying of "Blizzard is a company" misses the point. Hopefully, it gives an impression of WHY I'm sick of these debates as well.
Some of it might not seem fitting to this discussion, but it will, at least in parts, reflect on what I had to criticize about the opening post.
This is not a complete history, since I'm not in the mood to go through over a thousand postings. Also, there are probably a few things in there that I wouldn't say the same way again nowadays, but it already took me over half an hour going through this, and it would take much longer to discuss my own stuff in detail.
Sorry that I only insert links here, but as the interested reader will see and might have guessed already, they are rather lengthy (shocking, I know), and it's too much to insert in here.
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/220154-dust-per-dollar-value-of-boomsday-bundles-compared#c21
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/230099-gold-rewards-should-be-improved-imo?page=2#c40
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/231260-poll-hearthstone-is-more-fun-if-you-cant-afford?page=2#c29
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-game-modes/standard-format/233217-lets-make-all-classic-cards-f2p?page=11#c218
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/233459-about-nerf-discussions#c1
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/234352-why-people-see-aggro-as-a-no-skill-archetype#c18
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/236747-dust-inflation-is-real?page=3#c49
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/236747-dust-inflation-is-real?page=3#c57
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/237940-are-you-going-to-pre-order-dod?page=5#c84
Given the OP's name, I'm severely disappointed that no one has used the phrase, "you can't have your cake and eat it too". What's a world without good idioms... and cake.
LIVE, INSECT!
You are the same as any other entitled brat, but just trying to hide behind more refined grammar and diction. If anything it makes you more obnoxious, speaking as if you are level-headed and educated, but ultimately no better than every other whiny 16 year old cut off from their parent's credit card.
And yeah this is one big ad hominem post, but I'm jaded enough by now to know "your type" and know that there is no logic to be worth sharing with you so this will simply have to do. Keep writing novels on the game's "economy" though as if you have any idea what you're talking about. I'm sure you'll be the face of the F2P socialist revolution one day.
This is a very common philosophy, which can be seen basically everywhere. From work to private life and then games like hearthstone. I don't want to over-complicate the matter at hand, but it is a fact that the majority of the society thinks they deserve more than they actually do. A very simple example could be a common approach of overweight people, who often (I don't want to insult anyone but it is a fact that it happens pretty unrarely) think they should look like Arnold Schwarzenegger just because they stopped eating at McDonald's. The same goes for work, where many strongly believe they should get a pay raise without actually putting any effort in it. I'm not saying everyone is like that, but it is common. The issue with hearthstone doesn't lie with the community, which behaves in accordance to the human instinct of overvaluating themselves, but rather with the developers. Many other companies learned the tricks, which they use in making people believe they are being given gifts by the game. For instance in Brawl Stars (a popular mobile game) the chances of getting a good character are being increased with each box you open without receiving any. In short that is a psychological trick, thanks to which even players who spend money and don't get "good drops" are made to calm down, because "at least they will get it sooner than later now". Hearthstone on the other hand has a logically better pity timer, which however doesn't suit well with the player's emotions. In practice it's always better to tell people "you will get it soon" than "you will get it in the next 40 packs". It may sound irrational, but I am sure you must have had that kind of thought at some point.
*Also leaving aside psychology and philosophy, the prices are significantly too high ^_^ *
The issue, in my opinion, is not that Hearthstone "costs money". It is that the value proposition of Hearthstone is much, much worse than other digital CGs on the market.
Maybe the new progression system will improve things, I don't know. However, as of today, why would I grind for hours to build one deck of choice in HS, when I can play every deck I want in Legends of Runeterra, for example?
Again, I have no issue with paying for a digital CG. I have done in the past and will do again in the future. But, when I do pay, I want good value for money and, currently, the value offered by Hearthstone is very poor (compared to its competition).
So go play the competition.
I love how everyone prefaces their arguments with "While I agree with your points...." or "I don't mind paying money but...." as if it validates the worthless dribble that immediately follows.
It's really much more simple than your flawed opinion of what constitutes "good value": If the game did not provide good value to consumers, it wouldn't make money, and it would be a failure. Seeing as how that's now the situation though seems to suggest they are doing just fine and it's you who has the problem, not Blizzard. Unless you are somehow actually trying to suggest that the vast majority of people don't mind pissing away their hard earned money on something that they truly believe isn't worth it to them, which obviously makes no fucking sense at all.
You've accepted Hearthstone as it is and adapted to it as best as you could. You've worked hard, spent resources wisely and didn't complain about anything. Congratulations! But I don't understand why you call my post nonsense, when you've done nothing but proved my point that Hearthstone is "falsely" advertised as f2p game because in reality it's everything but free. Yes, you showed with your example that one can have a taste of what game has to offer without spending any money, but if you want to have fun (and in my opinion playing a game is about having a fun) in a long run, there's no other way but to pay for it either with money or with your time.
In death, I exact my revenge!
There were a few times that I paid for pre-purchases and adventures and I don't "think i deserve" or want to be "competitive"
But we DO DESERVE BETTER CARDS FOR SHAMAN.
I can't tell if you're being deliberately disingenuous here, or not.
As far as the first part is concerned, people who play without giving Blizzard Cash Money Dollars are still paying. With their Time and Attention. They have become part of The Product (tm). They are the very same people who will go online, and copy the cheapest, yet most competitive deck, and let it pilot them to victory.
These people are also part of the product. Free-to-play players are a function of the ecosystem. Blizzard replies on these people to farm dissatisfaction from other, paying players, to spend more money.
The second part is just fundamentally wrong, I'm sorry to say. Anyone who refutes your argument is accepting the premise of it.
Which is just classic debate-bounding.
Which is also to say, the premise of trading card games, microtransactions, and net-decking.
Your original post is thoughtful, and worth considering. But is still just semantic skin over an observably flawed skeleton.
This is ripe, trite.
Poor analogy, poor argument.
Let me play devils advocate. I pay a lot more taxes than the average person, because I make more money, do I P2W at life? How come I am not more competitive at everything than the people I make more money than? How come I don't always win a poker even though I bring alot more cash to the game? This makes no sense under the pretense of your argument.
I see this as a troll thread at best, why even create this thread other than to stir the pot and attack players with a different opinion?
Most players who take issue with devs adding cost structures is the slippery slope theory and catering to the lowest common denominator. Bad players who can buy benefits, whales and ultimately share holders. All this takes precedence over quality. Time spent on creating these income systems by T5 rather than quality on the game. Look at GGG as dev company that spends more time making MTX than fixing their BETA league bugs and investing in better servers.
A great example in HS is Blizzard constantly gating "new" content or "beta" content behind real money purchases so players can PAY to test FOR Blizzard. Yet they haven't spent time fixing the near unplayable Arena or imbalanced Rank meta. They add new modes and invite purchases to gain added access (increased chances in game like 4 hero options in BG) or access in general.
TL:DR
Moderator makes bait/troll thread, wins the forum. Read some of the OPs short post history. Often is confrontentional with their responses or argumentative. It no surprise they made this thread.
You know I was going to flame you....but the fact that you actually said that you should win more at poker because you bring more money to the table was about the biggest self-proclamation of your stupidity possible. (And also shows that you literally don't play poker, but nice job trying to sound cool lmfao).
Ignore all of the Devil’s advocates in the thread. This isn’t even a debate, author is 100% correct.
Those of you arguing his point saying things in the vein of “LOL at comparing to sports” or whatever else prove you actually have nothing of weight to base your argument on. Or you have no idea what an analogy is.
We live in an entitled world, and wanting everything for free is the embodiment of entitlement.
There is actually no realistic argument to counter the “there are other, fully free to play games you can play” argument. There is emotion-based rhetoric, but no actual counter argument.
If a company wants to charge money for their product, that is 100% their prerogative. As it is 100% your prerogative to spend that money, spend your time, or not consume the product at all.
I have both created and read posts pertaining to this exact same sentiment for years, and not once have I seen a counter argument that any logic minded person would deem appropriate.
If you don’t like the methods provided in order to obtain the product available, do not participate. Literally that simple.
Reading comprehension a struggle for you?I
It was a hypothetical, as stated Devils Advocate. Of course you shouldn't win at poker just because you came to a table with a deeper stack... The fact you read that seriously, even when it was stated it wasn't is pretty funny.
Using poker as an example wasn't ment to be cool, nor do I have a clue why you would think that. Using poker as an example is meant to show money and entitlement does not equate to specific outcomes or expected outcomes.
I'm glad you came into the thread just to flame me though. Very constructive post, very worthwhile.
You do realize how long it takes to get 30 wins a day right? The problem isn't with hearthstone making money, it's the way that they're scamming money. For example, the dust that you get from destroying a card is worth about a 4th of what it cost to create it. So if you pay say 1.50 for 1 pack, you get 4 commons and one rare, and they're all extra duplicates, then you just payed for a total of 40 dust. Congratulations! You can craft one common card!
In general OP is correct although it's surprising that a forum mod would post something with such an antagonistic tone. There is a misconception that Hearthstone is free to play. It is but only in a small way. The only way anyone can realistically keep up with the meta without spending money is to play a lot and to be very careful with their crafting and de'ing. Otherwise it just isn't feasible.
To me Hearthstone is a free to try game. There's a big difference between free to try and free to play. When I first started playing HS I never thought I would actually spend money on the game. But after a few months of playing and enjoying it I decided to start buying packs. Maybe a decision I'll regret in a few years but I'm having fun right now!
HS Is not a cheap game. Keeping up with the new sets requires a considerable investment several times a year. Right now I'm OK with that because I enjoy the game. But it is very close to becoming too expensive to justify.
As difficult as being f2p must be, at least you can still enjoy the game to some extent without spending money on it. That's something at least. You may not be able to play every deck you'd like to and sometimes you may not have every legendary or epic you need to make a top tier deck but you can get by just fine. There are many games out there that you have to buy first in order to play but HS isn't one of them. Blizzard has been generous with free stuff like packs when a new set launches, 5 free legendries with Galakrond, Silias, Sn1p-Sn4p etc. They don't have to do that.
If you don't or can't spend money on the game and don't have the time to grind everyday that's fine. Just know that the rewards will be limited and you may not be able to fully enjoy the game like those who do spend money on it. That's OK imo.
Missing lethal since June 2015.
If Blizzard had this approach from the begining. F2p players would have simply bypassed the game, no harm no foul. Just like I bypass games like star wars battlefront who insert ridiculous p2w nonsense into their games. By changing the essential deal that blizzard made with players at the begining, they have broken faith with them and deserve the criticism they get.
Anyone who has been an athlete knows that having money for coaching and equiptment is a luxury and gives you competitive advantage. But the real factor that determines an outcome in a sport is ability and dedication. The rest simply enhances it. To compare hearthstone to athletics is a joke. Hearthstone is a slot machine disguised as a game that tries to motivate you to spend money on it. To think that money spent is the defining characteristic of athletic competition is a sign that the OP has never had any type of success as an athlete.
A shift to a system which destroys f2p viability is a sign that blizzard has given up on growing their game, they will simply be focused on extracting maximum dollars from the p2w suckers who are prey to the fallacy of sunk cost. This game will continue to lose it's player base and that will accelerate next year unless blizzard changes their policies. But maybe this game has been beyond saving for a long time and blizzard knows that already. Thus the current approach makes perfect sense.
hey.... u have a solid point .. however u can never compare studying, wealth or tennis to an online game.... because not only does tennis improve your body fitness but it also grants u immense amounts of fun and u can get rewards furthermore we have studying.. now dont even compare playing a card game which will get u nowhere to studying because studying can pretty much change ur life if u spend ur time but if u spend ur time on the card game whats gonna happen? the best thing to support what im saying is.. LOR legends of runeterra .... i basically play only one game a day maybe dont even play at all at some days.. and im filthy rich without spending a single penny i have all the cards in the game and 20k shards.... ik how u feel because i was once addicted to the game and tried to come up with anything to defend it as a game however believe me this game is a total waste of time... u need to grind nonstop and u can barely get any cards even if u grind ... if ur f2p u can barely get a proper deck with grinding... not grinding wont get u anywhere then what? ur deck became outdated u need a new one?! man im sorry to tell but ur hugely mistaken..
Opinion:
A fundamental problem of the game is that you are paying to "collect" things that aren't real. With normal trading card games you have physical copies that you can trade/sell/do whatever. Here, you will lose everything if you either get banned or if Blizz decides to permanently shut down the servers.
I would be all in for a monthly paid subscription model that gave you access to all cards.