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    posted a message on Spell Schools - Deckbuilding Got Buffed?
    Quote from Dunscot >>
    Quote from TallStranger >>

     Sorry, but I don't think I agree. If the number of cards per expansion remains the same, and the number of playable decks increases, then by necessity there must be either: a) a high number of overlapping cards (i.e. cards that work in many different playable decks); or b) relatively few "key" cards for a given deck. In either case, f2p and "casuals" should come out ahead.

    Of the two, my suspicion is that the latter is more likely, as option a) would seem to run counter to the point of specialized spells. I could see, though, something like a card that says "when you cast a spell, discover a spell from the same school" (or "gain a random spell from the same school"). In fact, I'd bet some card like that will be printed.

    It's hard to be precise about the development of deck costs, because there are few sources that let you actually analyze this stuff. VS has archived Data Reapers, but they only started around 2016, and you usually can't see old deck lists anymore. Hearthpwn has so many decks for so many things that it's hard to track down specifc deck lists that were popular at a given time. Tempostorm has also an archive, but it's really terrible to navigate. Nobody really felt like poperly documenting the history of Hearthstone's metagame.

    But anyway, I think it could be proven to a certain extent that deck costs have gone up over time. From my own experience, decks used to cost like maybe 4k, 5k, rarely more, while few modern decks stay under 6k, with many going to 8, 10 and some even beyond. I think the so called "Wallet Warrior" was about the only deck that actually went over 10k for a long time. In this meta alone, we have at least 3 decks easily crossing that line (Ramp Paladin, Highlander Priest, Quest Warlock) and you can add a few more.

    And I think the biggest contributing factor was 2 class legendaries per expansion, starting in Un'goro. If you go through some old metas (as far as possible), you'll notice that the number of key legendaries was usually rather small. A lot of the legendaries in older expansions were straight up bad, including the class ones (with few expansions). The good ones were oftentimes neutral, more like "generally good", and didn't change often, like Bloodmage Thalnos, Ragnaros the Firelord, Leeroy Jenkins, Dr. Boom, Patches the Pirate etc. They were usually good to have, but rarely the driving force of a deck, or impossible to replace.

    Since 2017, legendaries are frequently essential to decks. Not only, because they are both much more impactful on their own, and virtually impossible to replace, such as Sunkeeper Tarim, Jandice Barov, Lord Barov, Soulciologist Malicia, Ysera, Unleashed, Dragonbane, and half of the Deathknigh hero cards. They are also more commonly the sole reason to play a deck, either being a single win condition, or the one card that turns everything around. Quests and Highlander cards are obvious examples, but we've seen something similar recently with Nozdormu the Timeless and High Abbess Alura

    Also, more frequently in modern HS, legendaries come with with strong synergies with epics or other legendaries. Obvious cases are Highlander decks again, Galakrond decks (making Kronx Dragonhoof mandatory), but there's also examples like Sayge, Seer of Darkmoon coming with Rigged Faire Game and Occult Conjurer. Other examples are Khadgar and Power of Creation, Blastmaster Boom and Wrenchcalibur (and strongly supported by Dr. Boom, Mad Genius, Omega Devastator and Zilliax), or Tickatus with Cascading Disaster and Y'Shaarj, the Defiler. Due to high rarity cards being more impactful, class specifc and oftentimes playing very specific and important roles, it's not uncommon anymore to see them in "packages" where it's pointless to have one without the other.

     I'm not quite sure why you are quoting me in this post, as I deliberately was NOT answering Kla_guy's question about the change of deck costs over time. I was (at least in my own mind) specifically only answering his question about whether the creation of spell schools will increase the cost of decks, which (for the reasons I explain above) I doubt.

    I've got no definite view of whether "real" deck costs have gone up over time or not: I suspect they have. By "real" costs, I mean something other than simply dust cost. By that measure, costs have certainly increased. But the right way to measure cost is by answering the question "how much gold do I need to to play a given deck?" Since cards come from dust, dust from packs and packs from gold, the real cost of decks is gold. So to assess the real cost, you have to calculate how much dust you get from packs. But (and here's where it get really complicated) the extension of duplicate protection to all rarities makes comparing dust values now to dust values pre-protection very hard. Prior to dupe protection, if there was an epic you absolutely needed for a deck, your odds of getting it never changed, regardless of how many packs you opened. Now, with every epic you open, your odds of getting the one you want go up. Thus the "real" dust value of the pack goes up, since you will be less likely to need to spend dust to get it. So the rise in nominal dust costs is, at least partially, offset by the increased value of packs and, thus, the gold you buy the packs with.

    BTW, even if it has increased, that's almost a necessary evil if you want a diverse meta. Improving class legendaries and epics is the only real way to give each class a distinct identity and viable deck. For all the complaints about the meta, IMHO there's a greater diversity of decks being played now than I can remember from back in the old days.

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on So What's the Complaint This Time?
    Quote from DeafKnight >>
    Quote from Shadowrisen >>
    Quote from 3nnu1 >>

    So no acknowledgement that the rewards track was complete fuckery and it took a large part of the community rising up to get blizzard to fix it. All the while the shills here kept saying it was fine in it's first iteration. 

     Which shills are those?  Because you've called me that before, and if you can find a post of me claiming there were no problems with the Blizzard reward track, I will personally buy you a pre-release bundle.  Go ahead . . . I'll wait.

    Using the word "shill" as an insult really is the lowest form of argument when it comes to these sorts of discussions.
    It is perfectly legitimate to believe that a change can be for the better r the overall good without secretly being a "fanboy" or whatever other useless terms people want to use.
    It essentially shows that the other person is less interested in providing discourse on the subject and simply does not have a valid argument and so resorts to base insults to shift the focus of the discussion.

     Unfortunately, that's very common around here. If I had a dollar for every time I was accused of being a Blizzard employee, I could retire and be no one's employee. Which would really be nice, especially given the work week I've been having!

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on Spell Schools - Deckbuilding Got Buffed?
    Quote from Kla_guy >>
    Quote from TallStranger >>
    Quote from Kla_guy >>

    Frankly, I'm afraid this might be a way to push even more costly cards in the typical strong / cool deck.

    Like: oh, so you want to play <favorite school> <favorite class>? Sure, just get this dozen legendaries plus another umpteen epics and you're all set!

    Not really an issue for whales, but for the rest of us... hmm :/

     I guess that's possible, but if the number of cards in each expansion doesn't change, it's not likely. If done right, it could increase the number of decent, playable decks in the meta, meaning that even f2p can play some competitive deck.

    Now, on the flip side, if you as an f2p have your heart set on some specific school/ class build ("I gotta play this Arcane Mage deck"), then yes you could end up having to craft the key legendary/ epic it requires. But that's true now: if you didn't open C'Thun and can't craft him, you're not playing a C'Thun deck.

    The second half of your argument is quite straightforward, not much to be questioned there. About the first half... guess "If done right" is the operative phrase, here. We'll begin to see how things go when Barrens hits, ofc, and we'll see better throughout the rest of the year.

    But I remain a tad pessimistic. Why? Because of this gut feeling (no scientific research or anything, sorry) that, on average, the cost of a good deck has only increased over the years. Often in a not immediately apparent way, because  some synergy or another emerged over time, requiring several high-end cards to be fully leveraged. People proficient in HS history, please correct me if this is wrong.

    Anyway, schools may be fun and all, thematically and for the sake of variety, sure. But it's not just the complexity of creative deck-building that increases, it's also the number of constraints, of requirements that will probably go up. And with those, the pressure to have a complete or  almost-complete collection.

    So not only f2ps but also casuals (meaning, people who spend something here and there but not 300+ $ per expansion) might be faced with tough choices, even more than today. At least, tougher than crafting a single legendary ;)

     Sorry, but I don't think I agree. If the number of cards per expansion remains the same, and the number of playable decks increases, then by necessity there must be either: a) a high number of overlapping cards (i.e. cards that work in many different playable decks); or b) relatively few "key" cards for a given deck. In either case, f2p and "casuals" should come out ahead.

    Of the two, my suspicion is that the latter is more likely, as option a) would seem to run counter to the point of specialized spells. I could see, though, something like a card that says "when you cast a spell, discover a spell from the same school" (or "gain a random spell from the same school"). In fact, I'd bet some card like that will be printed.

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on Spell Schools - Deckbuilding Got Buffed?
    Quote from Kla_guy >>

    Frankly, I'm afraid this might be a way to push even more costly cards in the typical strong / cool deck.

    Like: oh, so you want to play <favorite school> <favorite class>? Sure, just get this dozen legendaries plus another umpteen epics and you're all set!

    Not really an issue for whales, but for the rest of us... hmm :/

     I guess that's possible, but if the number of cards in each expansion doesn't change, it's not likely. If done right, it could increase the number of decent, playable decks in the meta, meaning that even f2p can play some competitive deck.

    Now, on the flip side, if you as an f2p have your heart set on some specific school/ class build ("I gotta play this Arcane Mage deck"), then yes you could end up having to craft the key legendary/ epic it requires. But that's true now: if you didn't open C'Thun and can't craft him, you're not playing a C'Thun deck.

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on Spell Schools - Deckbuilding Got Buffed?

    I'd also love to see something like elemental immunity (and even vulnerability) for minions. (It always struck me as odd that water elementals could be frozen.) The creation of spell schools could open all that up: fire-based minions taking no damage from fire magic, but extra damage from water, etc.

    Again, could get crazy complicated awfully quickly.

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on Spell Schools - Deckbuilding Got Buffed?

    As I said elsewhere, I think this is has the potential to massively increase the complexity of the game and could very well increase the diversity of decks being played. But it's also likely to really complicate the game balance problems which constantly arise. The community is going to find some broken combo that Blizzard will miss in playtesting.

    But definitely looking forward to seeing how this shakes out.

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on So What's the Complaint This Time?

    I'm pretty sure the biggest complaint (apart from the usual "RNG rigged" and "Blizzard greedy" stupidity) is going to be game balance. The creation of a whole new core PLUS new spell schools PLUS the usual balance problems we get with every expansion is going to lead to absolute chaos. These additions will substantially increase the complexity of the game (depending on how they're implemented). Playtesting has been a problem for Blizzard in the past: it's about to get much, much harder for the dev team.

    Some insane, broken combo (ala Wretched Tiller) or deck will emerge that Blizzard failed to see coming. And it's going to tick off the crazies in the community, of whom there are waaaaay too many.

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on This combo seems problematic to me.
    Quote from thazud >>
    Quote from DeafKnight >>
    Quote from thazud >>
    Quote from DeafKnight >>
    Quote from PetiteMouche >>

     My god you guys are so toxic.. The op is being respectful and reasonable, says things like "it SEEMS problematic TO ME", can't you just tell him why you think he's wrong ?

     

     It is indeed rather bemusing how many people seem to be losing their collective minds over the fact that I am personally concerned about a particular card and its interactions and that this was merely my opinion and certainly not written as being "hard fact". Lol I didn't realise people valued my opinions so highly around here! ;-)
    I'm probably flattered. Or something! Ahem!
    One person even raged about why I thought the card was "broken", even though it explicitly states I didn't think that, in the OP. 
    I mean, the guy could at least read the post before randomly spitting his dummy out? Lol! 

    Ah well! :-D

     Welcome to the internet!

    OT:
    This will hardly be problematic. Hearthstone has had single cards that does the same but better (e.g. Dirty Rat and Gnomeferatu) and they did not break the game. Besides, Hearthstone has seen a lot of aggro decks lately and this would be a horrible combo to use against such decks. 

    Maybe if very specific combo decks becomes a thing but then you would probably just use Ticktatus instead. One mana less and he destroys 5 cards. 

     Agreed.
    Let me just reiterate though :-  (for the sake of other people who may choose to misinterpret what I am saying once more)
    1. I do not think this breaks the game.
    2. I do not think this card is "broken".
    3. I do not think this card will break / kill the meta, or anything to that effect.
    4. I do not think this card is any use against aggro decks (seriously, why do people keep getting hung up on aggro decks here? Aggro decks have their own big counters to deal with). Not to mention that this can be a HUGE benefit to a good tempo deck that stalls your opponent's ability to keep up.
    5. There is really nothing wrong with speculation on new cards and mechanics. I mean, people laughed at cards like Tickatus and Carnival Clown etc and look what happened there! ;-) 

    I do, however, think - in my humble opinion - that this card is likely to cause problems for any decks which rely on specific minions to achieve their win condition. Mozaki, Yogg, Mallygoose, etc etc. It doesn't even require the Brewmaster to be that problem. If you can stall a combo deck by even one turn, it can be enough to win.
    Tickatus is also a problem for these decks. As are any cards that allow removal from hand / deck. 
    Once again, though - I don't believe any of these cards are broken or ruin the game or anything to that effect. 

    Is Tickatus better at removing cards from your opponent's deck? Yes, of course. 
    Is he better at forcing the opponent to discard a card he had been holding onto to complete his OTK kill? Definitely not. In fact, he's useless at that point. 

     It was not my intention to say you think the combo breaks the game - though I can see I frased it that way. It is still very RNG dependent and not a reliable way to remove a specific card. Say you want to target Malygos and the opponent has 8 cards in his hand. You are spending 7 mana for a 1/8 chance to disrupt his win condition. Otherwise you might just remove a random survivel tool or a burn spell that might not save you. Combo decks usually draw a lot of cards and have big hands. The only deck I can think that consistenly would be fucked by this combo is mechathun priest. 

    And not all combo decks keep their finishers in their opening hand. If I were to survive an aggressive meta I would keep Malygos and other high end finishers out of my hand because they are a terrible draw in the early game - I'd rather draw cards or keep removal to survive. Thus, a card like Ticktatus moves between 5 and 15 cards from your opponents deck. That is a lot better and a lot more consistent. Because you might not remove Malygos but removing 3 or 4 burst spells? That sucks. 

     Just a minor correction: in the situation you laid out, you do not have a 1/8 chance of discarding Malygos. Felsoul Jailer targets minions, not cards. So if your opponent only has a bunch of damage spells plus Malygos in hand, this card will hit its intended target.

    That doesn't mean the card or combo will be a problem or even a particularly good play, but it would be more effective/ useful than if it merely discarded random cards rather than minions.

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on Hottest Decks for Madness at the Darkmoon Faire - Community Favorites - Standard and Wild!
    Quote from xskarma >>

    Not sure what happened there. It's now a OTK Tiller/Hysteria deck. Not sure if improvement...

    Thanks for the heads-up!

     Hmmm. Which is more annoying: Shudderwock or Wretched Tiller? They're both so awful in their own, unique ways....

    Posted in: News
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    posted a message on Hottest Decks for Madness at the Darkmoon Faire - Community Favorites - Standard and Wild!

    Dear Mods,

    You've posted the wild shaman deck in the place you were supposed to post a warlock deck.

    Posted in: News
  • 1

    posted a message on WILD is broken!!!! AGAIN

    Hysteria is not the problem here, and it doesn't make sense to have its target only attack enemy minions. Hysteria is just the single-target version of Mass Hysteria, so changing the way it functions doesn't make logical sense. In addition, changing Hysteria won't really fix the problem. With that "fix," any opponent with a sizable board gets penalized for it. (Especially problematic since it doesn't matter whether you have a bunch of small minions or a few big ones. Effect will be the same.)

    The obvious fix is to have Deathspeaker also give spell immunity for this turn. You can still use it to heal with lifesteal, but you can't pull the idiotic cheese move that's ruining wild.

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on Mini-set --> Odd paladin with librams now viable?!
    Quote from enoX_36 >>
    Quote from BlueTwo >>

    I agree that odd pally is traditionally a fast deck, but why can't it play a grinder mid-range style that discounts librams and has the hero power to keep the gas on throughout the game? With some notable changes, and inclusion of things like buff cards + lady liadrin, the hero power could guarantee buff targets and longevity while smashing ass as librams do. 

    It certainly isn't a play for turn 5 kill, but I think dropping 2 divine shield 1/1s every turn could provide enough oomph to make it at least tier 2 viable 

     

     Because if you don't go for the fast version of odd paladin, every meta deck in wild crushes you. You don't have time for mana discount or late game plan as odd pala, you just spam dudes, buff them, hit face, win. 

     Precisely. The only advantage odd pally has over Reno Priest is the ability to build a board very quickly. Stretch the game out, and the sheer value and power of the priest's deck will overwhelm you. Same with Secret Mage: if you don't finish off your opponent quickly, he's going to crush you most of the time.

    In addition, what buffs do you think you're going to use in odd pally? All the best ones are even costed: Blessing of Kings, Hand of A'dal, Libram of Wisdom, and Spikeridged Steed. The few buffs you have for odd pally mainly buff attack, not health, so they're only really useful for punching through a taunt or as a finisher. They don't buy you any staying power on the board.

    If you really want to try to make it work, go for it. Maybe you'll stumble on a better approach to odd pally. But you're not going to get there with a buff or libram package. There's just not enough odd buffs to make it worthwhile.

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on Mini-set --> Odd paladin with librams now viable?!

    I play quite a bit of odd pally, and I don't see Libram of Judgment making it into the deck.

    First off, it's not 5 mana, it's 7. I don't know of a single viable odd pally deck that runs anything higher than a 5 mana card (other than Baku the Mooneater, of course!). Some run Corridor Creeper, but that's an incredibly easy card to discount. Heck, most of decks I've played against don't even run Libram of Justice.

    Second, in my view there's no reason to run Aldor Attendant or Aldor Truthseeker in the hope of discounting Libram of Judgment or Libram of Hope. Running 4 cards to discount 4 others just doesn't make much sense to me. You'd have to play at least 2 of those cards to make the investment worthwhile. If you haven't done so, both those higher cost librams are basically dead cards in your hand.

    Third, odd pally is a fast deck. If you haven't won by turn 8 or so, your odds of winning drop dramatically. A libram package slows this down, for little discernible gain. I just don't see this as viable, but I've been wrong before.

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on Best Mage Legendary to craft right now?

    Do we know if there will be any class legendaries in the mini-expansion? If so, you might want to wait until you see what's in that set. It could change the types of mage decks that are fun/ good/ viable.

    Just a thought.

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on have demon hunter nerfs been announced?

    Well, if he's got no idea what he's doing (and if you're half the HS stud you claim to be), then I look forward to hearing the details of how you crushed him in your match.

    You DID accept his challenge, right?

    Posted in: General Discussion
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