If you address Cubelock (which doesn't need the addressing since other decks are stronger than Cubelock, such as Control Lock) then another deck will become the new "suffocating deck". A good candidate would be Control Lock or aggro pally. So if we're going to nerf Cube Lock on the basis of the degree to which it suffocates the meta then why even bother when it is 100% guaranteed that another deck will immediately take its place?
There will always be a top deck or two. All a nerf or change will do is create a new top deck.
The meta after the midrange shaman nerfs and Un'Goro meta have a lot of good decks and a Tier 3 deck have a decent chance of winning vs a Tier 1 deck.
What are the odds of a tempo rogue beat a cubelock after the nerfs in Patches and Creeper? 0.
Control paladin? 0.
CW? 0.
Any shaman? 0.
There is not wrong have one or two decks a little more strong or consistent than others but Cubelock is too perfect with almost 0 weakness keepin tons and tons of decks out of the meta, it is just insane.
A better remedy isn't to nerf every strong class down to the level of warrior and shaman, but to actually give those classes stronger cards and plays to compete with.
One way or another, a better balance between the classes are needed and, unfortunately, so far the new expansion make things worse.
I like cubes, but when you look at something like cubelock and start asking "is there a single viable warlock deck that does not have lackeys, dark pact and voidlords?" and that's even before getting into the brokenness of doomguards. Making warlock one of the best healing classes in the game makes no sense, plus they get free minions whenever they heal for ridiculous amounts. Nerf dark pact into the ground and make the spellstone harder to power up (like most spellstones are) and MAYBE we could have an enjoyable playing experience.
As it is now though, there's no hope for anyone who plays a deck that can't beat warlocks.
I am loving the new expansion cards so far.... though i do not know if they will help against cubelock. I do know that Cubelock has caused me to almost want to quit the game. Pirate Warrior and Quest Rogue were cancerous but not nearly as cancerous as cubelock. I literally win 1 out of every 5 matches against the net decking cubelocks.
I like cubes, but when you look at something like cubelock and start asking "is there a single viable warlock deck that does not have lackeys, dark pact and voidlords?" and that's even before getting into the brokenness of doomguards. Making warlock one of the best healing classes in the game makes no sense, plus they get free minions whenever they heal for ridiculous amounts. Nerf dark pact into the ground and make the spellstone harder to power up (like most spellstones are) and MAYBE we could have an enjoyable playing experience.
As it is now though, there's no hope for anyone who plays a deck that can't beat warlocks.
My question is what deck CAN beat warlocks right now? Unless you are lucky enough to rush them before turn 5 you lose or maybe i guess Mage since they can polymorph the voidlords making it so they cannot be resummoned...
I've tried Silences for the lords and oozes for the weapon and you need to get lucky enough to have the ooze when he plays the skull... and if you silence a lord they can still be resummoned..
I don't think it suffocates the meta, it sets the bar for power level in Standard. If you're not doing something faster or more powerful or that can reliably answer every threat then what you're doing isn't good enough for constructed. Cubelock's core cards were pretty much delivered as a package from Team 5, they knew it would be strong, same as they knew CtA and Spiteful Summoner would be strong. I like that my epics and legendaries are strong and can be played in Standard and Wild and would rather spend my dust on overpowered cards than fair cards.
Lol, what a dumbass. “I want overpowered cards, fair cards are stupid!” This is the mindset of the player base unfortunately
Lol, what a dumbass. "My view on card balance and powerlevels is the only way of seeing this totally arbitrary thing!"
This is the mindset of people posting here unfortunately.
I like cubes, but when you look at something like cubelock and start asking "is there a single viable warlock deck that does not have lackeys, dark pact and voidlords?" and that's even before getting into the brokenness of doomguards. Making warlock one of the best healing classes in the game makes no sense, plus they get free minions whenever they heal for ridiculous amounts. Nerf dark pact into the ground and make the spellstone harder to power up (like most spellstones are) and MAYBE we could have an enjoyable playing experience.
As it is now though, there's no hope for anyone who plays a deck that can't beat warlocks.
My question is what deck CAN beat warlocks right now? Unless you are lucky enough to rush them before turn 5 you lose or maybe i guess Mage since they can polymorph the voidlords making it so they cannot be resummoned...
I've tried Silences for the lords and oozes for the weapon and you need to get lucky enough to have the ooze when he plays the skull... and if you silence a lord they can still be resummoned..
I have a positive winrate against warlock with jade shaman (which will be completely dead after rotation with no jades/devolve). Otherwise I think you're forced to become the cancer you want to beat.
Honestly I don't think cubelock feels like a problem right now. You're not seeing any innovation at the moment mostly because we're at the end of an expansion's and rotation's lifecycle, which is when things naturally get the most stagnant. People have already figured out what's good and there isn't likely to be any more figuring out done before the next expansion.
Statistically, when last I checked Dude and Murloc Pally both boasted better overall winrates than any form of Control Warlock, both Rin and Cube, and Warlock as a class right now is pretty much torched by any in-meta variant of Priest (at least running through VS data). As well, Shaman and Warrior aren't weak because Cubelock exists (though that certainly doesn't help them), they're weak because their card quality on average is atrocious compared to what's available to all the other classes right now. Warrior basically just loses the earlygame by default without War Axe, and Shaman's earlygame gets outpaced by almost anything decent (read: Paladin), and the class lacks any sort of strong lategame to compensate. The classes are dead not because just because Warlock is powerful, but because every other class does the same things much better than them.
Who needs aggro Shaman when Pally does the exact same job twice as efficiently? What's the value in Control Shaman when basically every class can outvalue it? Why play Recruit Warrior when Big Priest has over twice the threat density and better consistency to boot? DMH Warrior has actually found a niche in the tournament meta at least, though it can never really take off on ladder given how slow and polarized it can be.
In short, the meta's in a pretty normal space considering the timeline of rotation. We've got Warlocks on top being generally strong, Priests of all sorts preying on Warlocks, Paladins preying on weak Priest earlygames, and Warlocks preying on Paladins with a bevy of AoE and huge taunts. Most of the other classes can nip in and do some damage to each of those options given the right conditions, and the ones that can't have simply lacked adequate support recently. I can't really consider Cubelock stifling when it has multiple reliable counters and options like silence and weapon destruction that can do real damage in virtually all other classes alongside more singular techs like stealing and transforms (as opposed to something like Quest Rogue which was nerfed largely because of how frustratingly limited your avenues of interaction were, which certainly can't be said for Control Warlocks)
I think the main problem with the deck is not healing, but the consistency of bringing out Voidlords at 5 or 6. Skull can easily be countered with weapon removal, Voidlords can also be countered with Silence. In my opinion, Lackey is the card that needs a nerf the most. It should say something like "Deathrattle: Recruit a Demon that costs 5 or less.". This way, Warlock would still have a way of getting out Doomguards, making Lackey useable, all while limiting the possibilities of a potential turn 5/6 Voidlord. Sure, you can run Silence minions like Spellbreaker but that's only 2 cards. How are you supposed to use 2 cards to Silence Lackey, Cube, Voidlord #1, Voidlord #2, Voidlord #23448, etc.
TL;DR: I think the biggest problem is Lackey right now. If the deck had only Skull to cheat in Voidlords, that would be completely fine with me. But this way? It's way too consistent and that's why it works so good.
Cube lock and Big Priest are the 2 worst decks there have ever been in this game. No deck has ever been less interactive and frustrating to play against. Neither have REAL counters too. They did statistics and big priest is favored 80% if they draw barnes turn 4, and I've witnessed several tournament games where the big priest player had a horrible hand, and didn't play a minion until turn 7 vs an AGGRO deck, and even greedily took 10 extra damage holding a board clear, and he still won. TWICE...
People think cube-lock has weaknesses too and it's laughable. Because 3 streamlined PERFECT decks: Mill rogue, secret mage, and aggro paladin have like a 55% win rate vs cubelock, the warlock players think it's balanced. When literally any feasable deck you can create with the thousands of cards in the game that aren't one of those 3 exact decks have at best like a 25% win rate vs cube lock. And when you know what your opponent's playing, you can easily play around it as well. Your opponent runs cards like HexPolymorph and silence effects? Just play Dark Pact on your cube the turn you use it. No reason not to at all. Turn 10 youll get 2 of whatever you just killed back anyway. I played a game of fatigue shaman vs cube lock FFS, a deck that should NEVER lose to it. I had 2 hexes and 2 devolves in my hand the whole game and made him overdraw a bunch of cards. Doesn't matter though because he just didn't play anything, then drops the skull and cubes and Dark Rituals the next turn. Game's just over for me because even though I played perfectly around his whole deck and knew every card, you cannot stop the voidlord train if the warlock is semi-competent.
The sad thing is that I guarantee you that when blizzard "nerfs" cube-lock, they're probably going to just change the cube to res 1 minion instead of 2, and then make skull cost 1 more mana or something stupid, which won't affect warlock at all, because they'll just play the other variant with Gnomeferatus instead of cubes and then cube just won't ever be played again, so you'll never see any cool cube hunter or rogue decks. GUARANTEE that's whats going to happen. Oh yeah and they'll nerf like 2 more cards from other classes including Call to Arms which contrary to what people believe, is GOOD for the game because strong aggro decks keep oppressive, expensive control decks in check, which makes the game have a lot more variety.
It sure seems suffocating to me, but I'm just an average HS pleb, what do I really know about the game compared to the pros? It's definitely killing a buzz a little for Witchwood though, 4 of every 5 cards they release I look at and all I can see is 'this can't get through Voidlords so is unplayable, feelsbadman'
What game are you guys playing lately? For sure it's not Hearthstone.
All I see everywhere in this game is Dude Paladin, Secret Mage and Spell Hunter, many of them played by bots.
I wish I could play against a deck in which the oponent has to think a little, like Cubelock, for a change.
One person's experiences don't mean a lot when talking about the meta as a whole. There are websites that gather information about which decks are seeing success, and cubelock is currently riding high.
But it's not just about win rates -- it's about the way a deck wins. Cubelock is one of those decks that win by not caring about the opponent's actions. Insane amounts of healing and the ability to cheat out specific minions simply shut out too many of the opponent's options.
Recruit in general was a terrible idea, which is why dude paladin is also oppressive.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Though it should be mentioned that N'zoth will rotate out. the question becomes how well can cubelock/control lock function without one of their win conditions?
I think cubelock will be the best off considering they can still do their cube doomsayer combo.
I think the main problem with the deck is not healing, but the consistency of bringing out Voidlords at 5 or 6. Skull can easily be countered with weapon removal, Voidlords can also be countered with Silence. In my opinion, Lackey is the card that needs a nerf the most. It should say something like "Deathrattle: Recruit a Demon that costs 5 or less.". This way, Warlock would still have a way of getting out Doomguards, making Lackey useable, all while limiting the possibilities of a potential turn 5/6 Voidlord. Sure, you can run Silence minions like Spellbreaker but that's only 2 cards. How are you supposed to use 2 cards to Silence Lackey, Cube, Voidlord #1, Voidlord #2, Voidlord #23448, etc.
TL;DR: I think the biggest problem is Lackey right now. If the deck had only Skull to cheat in Voidlords, that would be completely fine with me. But this way? It's way too consistent and that's why it works so good.
That weapon is too good. And 'teching' in weapon removal is just completely useless in this game. Unless you play tournaments.
I literally win 1 out of every 5 matches against the net decking cubelocks.
Then you should be playing a different deck or making better in game decisions. Why is the fact that you can't beat a meta deck a problem?
It's the fact that Cubelocks almost instant win against 90% of other decks. It has nothing to do with the fact that only I cannot beat them. They are more cancerous then Pirate Warriors were even more so then the pre-nerfed Rogue Quest.
Unless you can beat them before turn 5 which is very rare you will probably lose to them. I had one lock down to 1 hp and couldn't finish him off simply because he put up the voidlord constant wall.
The problem isn't the carnivorous cube, it is dark pact.
It's only one Mana, it kills the cube, AND gives you back 8 health. If this card didn't exist, the cube would be a huge loss of tempo, could be silenced or traded into at your opponents discretion, etc. The same card also makes the lackeys much more powerful.
The cards right now that we're poorly thought out are dark pact and the warlock spellstone. Part of warlock is taking damage, and having to manage your health. If you can gain a quarter of your health from doing something you would be doing anyway, that's bad. Everyone used to run damage cards, now they just run the spellstone.
On the flip side the only other class that can cube and kill in one turn for one extra Mana is druid, and naturalize will not only not heal you, it gives your opponent two cards. And also, druid does not have as obnoxious of minions as warlock.
The cube is a cool card, and cubelocking is a cool deck. It's the absurd levels of incidental healing warlock has that make it a pain.
/thread
Dark Pact simply eradicated what has traditonally been Warlock's achilles heel: fragility. In the Un'goro meta the class wasn't viable because of that sole reason. With KotFT they added Lifesteal (Blood-Queen Lana'thel, Bloodreaver Gul'dan) to make up for it but since the release of KnC the ability to regain health just got out of hand. The card is just too strong due to the synergy with Possessed Lackey and Carnivorous Cube. Even the loss of Mistress of Mixtures won't hurt that much since there's still Lesser Amethyst Spellstone.
I like cubes, but when you look at something like cubelock and start asking "is there a single viable warlock deck that does not have lackeys, dark pact and voidlords?" and that's even before getting into the brokenness of doomguards. Making warlock one of the best healing classes in the game makes no sense, plus they get free minions whenever they heal for ridiculous amounts. Nerf dark pact into the ground and make the spellstone harder to power up (like most spellstones are) and MAYBE we could have an enjoyable playing experience.
As it is now though, there's no hope for anyone who plays a deck that can't beat warlocks.
I am loving the new expansion cards so far.... though i do not know if they will help against cubelock. I do know that Cubelock has caused me to almost want to quit the game. Pirate Warrior and Quest Rogue were cancerous but not nearly as cancerous as cubelock. I literally win 1 out of every 5 matches against the net decking cubelocks.
I've tried Silences for the lords and oozes for the weapon and you need to get lucky enough to have the ooze when he plays the skull... and if you silence a lord they can still be resummoned..
"Fair cards are stupid!" is a pretty good place to start when talking about ladder decks, thanks for stating it in such clear terms mprodigy.
Honestly I don't think cubelock feels like a problem right now. You're not seeing any innovation at the moment mostly because we're at the end of an expansion's and rotation's lifecycle, which is when things naturally get the most stagnant. People have already figured out what's good and there isn't likely to be any more figuring out done before the next expansion.
Statistically, when last I checked Dude and Murloc Pally both boasted better overall winrates than any form of Control Warlock, both Rin and Cube, and Warlock as a class right now is pretty much torched by any in-meta variant of Priest (at least running through VS data). As well, Shaman and Warrior aren't weak because Cubelock exists (though that certainly doesn't help them), they're weak because their card quality on average is atrocious compared to what's available to all the other classes right now. Warrior basically just loses the earlygame by default without War Axe, and Shaman's earlygame gets outpaced by almost anything decent (read: Paladin), and the class lacks any sort of strong lategame to compensate. The classes are dead not because just because Warlock is powerful, but because every other class does the same things much better than them.
Who needs aggro Shaman when Pally does the exact same job twice as efficiently? What's the value in Control Shaman when basically every class can outvalue it? Why play Recruit Warrior when Big Priest has over twice the threat density and better consistency to boot? DMH Warrior has actually found a niche in the tournament meta at least, though it can never really take off on ladder given how slow and polarized it can be.
In short, the meta's in a pretty normal space considering the timeline of rotation. We've got Warlocks on top being generally strong, Priests of all sorts preying on Warlocks, Paladins preying on weak Priest earlygames, and Warlocks preying on Paladins with a bevy of AoE and huge taunts. Most of the other classes can nip in and do some damage to each of those options given the right conditions, and the ones that can't have simply lacked adequate support recently. I can't really consider Cubelock stifling when it has multiple reliable counters and options like silence and weapon destruction that can do real damage in virtually all other classes alongside more singular techs like stealing and transforms (as opposed to something like Quest Rogue which was nerfed largely because of how frustratingly limited your avenues of interaction were, which certainly can't be said for Control Warlocks)
I think the main problem with the deck is not healing, but the consistency of bringing out Voidlords at 5 or 6. Skull can easily be countered with weapon removal, Voidlords can also be countered with Silence. In my opinion, Lackey is the card that needs a nerf the most. It should say something like "Deathrattle: Recruit a Demon that costs 5 or less.". This way, Warlock would still have a way of getting out Doomguards, making Lackey useable, all while limiting the possibilities of a potential turn 5/6 Voidlord. Sure, you can run Silence minions like Spellbreaker but that's only 2 cards. How are you supposed to use 2 cards to Silence Lackey, Cube, Voidlord #1, Voidlord #2, Voidlord #23448, etc.
TL;DR: I think the biggest problem is Lackey right now. If the deck had only Skull to cheat in Voidlords, that would be completely fine with me. But this way? It's way too consistent and that's why it works so good.
Cube lock and Big Priest are the 2 worst decks there have ever been in this game. No deck has ever been less interactive and frustrating to play against. Neither have REAL counters too. They did statistics and big priest is favored 80% if they draw barnes turn 4, and I've witnessed several tournament games where the big priest player had a horrible hand, and didn't play a minion until turn 7 vs an AGGRO deck, and even greedily took 10 extra damage holding a board clear, and he still won. TWICE...
People think cube-lock has weaknesses too and it's laughable. Because 3 streamlined PERFECT decks: Mill rogue, secret mage, and aggro paladin have like a 55% win rate vs cubelock, the warlock players think it's balanced. When literally any feasable deck you can create with the thousands of cards in the game that aren't one of those 3 exact decks have at best like a 25% win rate vs cube lock. And when you know what your opponent's playing, you can easily play around it as well. Your opponent runs cards like Hex Polymorph and silence effects? Just play Dark Pact on your cube the turn you use it. No reason not to at all. Turn 10 youll get 2 of whatever you just killed back anyway. I played a game of fatigue shaman vs cube lock FFS, a deck that should NEVER lose to it. I had 2 hexes and 2 devolves in my hand the whole game and made him overdraw a bunch of cards. Doesn't matter though because he just didn't play anything, then drops the skull and cubes and Dark Rituals the next turn. Game's just over for me because even though I played perfectly around his whole deck and knew every card, you cannot stop the voidlord train if the warlock is semi-competent.
The sad thing is that I guarantee you that when blizzard "nerfs" cube-lock, they're probably going to just change the cube to res 1 minion instead of 2, and then make skull cost 1 more mana or something stupid, which won't affect warlock at all, because they'll just play the other variant with Gnomeferatus instead of cubes and then cube just won't ever be played again, so you'll never see any cool cube hunter or rogue decks. GUARANTEE that's whats going to happen. Oh yeah and they'll nerf like 2 more cards from other classes including Call to Arms which contrary to what people believe, is GOOD for the game because strong aggro decks keep oppressive, expensive control decks in check, which makes the game have a lot more variety.
It sure seems suffocating to me, but I'm just an average HS pleb, what do I really know about the game compared to the pros? It's definitely killing a buzz a little for Witchwood though, 4 of every 5 cards they release I look at and all I can see is 'this can't get through Voidlords so is unplayable, feelsbadman'
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Probably yes.
Though it should be mentioned that N'zoth will rotate out. the question becomes how well can cubelock/control lock function without one of their win conditions?
I think cubelock will be the best off considering they can still do their cube doomsayer combo.
control warlock might suffer though
Why u hav to be mad? is only card gaem.
This season i played in standard against 0 paladins... 0! also 0 rogues and shamans. 70% priests and warlocks and then hunters and mages.
Secretmages can burn a cubelock down, but most minionbased decks like paladins just lose.
All Skill, No Luck
I'm pretty sure they will nerf some keycards. But it always takes way too long.
That deck is incredibly overpowered.
Unless you can beat them before turn 5 which is very rare you will probably lose to them. I had one lock down to 1 hp and couldn't finish him off simply because he put up the voidlord constant wall.