True, it does not, because Steroids are not allowed for anyone, so the one using them is legitimately cheating. Personally, I use a tracker, and only play when I'm using it, but I turn off the interface that shows my deck or my opponents' played cards because I don't have a hard time remembering how many copies of key cards have been played, and after playing HS for 2 years +or so now (and CCGs/TCGs/LCGs for my entire life almost) I have a pretty good idea of the odds of drawing something I need at a given point in the game. If anything, using those features made me worse at keeping track of those things when the tracker wasn't working or I was playing mobile. I was gaining very little benefit from the feature, so I stopped using it (I actually only play with tracker because I want complete stats over the course of a month, not some games out of the analysis).
I recognize that playing card games for so long has made me a little better at this type of mental tracking than newer players, or people who just have a hard time with such things. I can't imagine begrudging them for using a tool to do the same thing when it's a tool available to everyone in some fashion or another.
Having a photographic memory doesn't make you any smarter than someone who doesn't. Surely you are aware of this? Otherwise your comment doesn't really make sense.
Or are you saying that halfway through any match you could (without the help of any 3rd party) reel off every card that has been playe by both players, and in what order?
The point is- who cares if you have a deck tracker or not? Sure it's helpful but it's not unfair. There are so many other factors that go into any given match up in hearthstone that have nothing to do with tracking cards- rng, hero match ups, card draw, order of play, player decisions, etc. Also deck tracking is available for everyone too so how is that unfair? Purchasing cards is available to everyone as well but you don't hear people saying that pay to play is unfair, just inconvenient. This is just a silly question if you ask me.
I don't use a deck tracker so does that mean I have lost games due to an "unfair" advantage to players that track cards? I don't think so.
it gives an advantage to people with better memory, which i guess could be considered either unfair or skill-based depending on who you ask. some players like firebat can remember what's left in his deck perfectly, which i think is cool as hell.
Honestly, I can't really get behind the idea that deck trackers really are doing anything unfair. You can certainly track what your opponent has played, what you've played, what cards your opponent has kept and the position in their hand all by memory or using a pen/paper. Is it easier to use a tracker? Absolutely! But I'll be quite honest... it generally won't make a difference as long as you're making solid contextual plays.
I'd be curious to see what the difference in winrate is between players who use deck trackers and don't (but possess similar skill levels)... I'd wager the difference is extremely, extremely miniscule. If you know how to use the data a deck tracker is giving you properly, odds are you could be doing it in your head. If you're just being given data but don't know how to integrate that into forming lines of play, you're not really gaining much of an advantage.
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Deck trackers do a lot more than that, don't be dishonest to yourself, it is pointless. It's fine if you think deck trackers are fair, opinions are fine. Lies are not fine.
And it doesn't matter how much time it takes. It DOES take time, while the deck tracker does it instantly. Unfair, period.
Deck trackers don't do anything more than tell you what cards you still have left and sometimes what % chance you have of drawing a 1 of or 2 of.
Honestly, it's not unfair. If you can't remember what cards you or your opponent has played in a 10 minute game (and thats long) then you have bigger problems in life.
I don't feed trolls, don't expect to be the exception
Everything the poster said was simply a reiteration of things which BB and Iksar have said publicly about trackers. Nothing remotely trolling. If sensible, level-headed discussion is something which might potentially offend you, it's best not to take part.
Deck trackers do a lot more than that, don't be dishonest to yourself, it is pointless. It's fine if you think deck trackers are fair, opinions are fine. Lies are not fine.
And it doesn't matter how much time it takes. It DOES take time, while the deck tracker does it instantly. Unfair, period.
Deck trackers don't do anything more than tell you what cards you still have left and sometimes what % chance you have of drawing a 1 of or 2 of.
Honestly, it's not unfair. If you can't remember what cards you or your opponent has played in a 10 minute game (and thats long) then you have bigger problems in life.
I don't feed trolls, don't expect to be the exception
Everything the poster said was simply a reiteration of things which BB and Iksar have said publicly about trackers. Nothing remotely trolling. If sensible, level-headed discussion is something which might potentially offend you, it's best not to take part.
Don't mind him. Some people just love to cling to an excuse -- any excuse -- that shifts the blame for their poor winrate away from their own skill level.
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Not really unfair since you can track them also if you wanted. It is an advantage for sure though.
Now as a whole I honestly don't think it should be allowed. They don't track cards in poker tourneys. They count them. Same should apply here. Just my opinion though.
The thread's title should really be 'How much of a purist are you?' as most of the answers seem to fall along these lines instead.
Generally, what is 'fair' is what is not expressly forbidden by the rules, but that matters little when someone is in position to use a tool and 'we' are not. In that case, we might feel differently.
What if everyone is using 'steroids' even though they are forbidden?
Is it fair that another may have multiple coaches while playing vs. you as an individual?
The rules are the only objective measure of 'fairness'.
Note that the primary reason why steroids are still illegal is due to how dangerous they are when allowed. We allow high priced athletic equipment, specialised trainers, and specialized diets even though most people could not afford such systems. They provide an advantage over teams that can't afford them but are still allowed. Same goes for the multiple coaches pro players have before the game to carefully craft their deck and strategy which gives them a direct advantage over any old joe going into a high end tournament. The ability to play for 8+ hours a day due to their income being based on the game they are competing in compared to someone who only has 2 hours a day to play due to a full time job is also an advantage.
The point is that we can't completely even up the playing field so instead competitions basically put a line, almost arbitrarily, and say "the buck stops here." That line is typically placed based on safety and whether such factors break the game.
Note this is also where the line between 'allowable bugs' and 'exploits' come in. In starcraft, Muta stacking was a bug that was acceptable while, say, the invincible drone bug would not (if tournaments had existed when that bug was around).
As far as HS goes, what's legal is determined by Blizzard. While the community CAN gather around an agreed upon 'fairness' beyond that, most times it defaults to what's legal due to differing opinions. Blizzard has allowed deck trackers. This thread shows that there's no consensus for deck tracking not being fair. Thus unless someone can convince the majority of the playerbase (not even Hearthpwn, The HEARTHSTONE player base, of which we're less than 1% represented here) that deck tracking is wrong then it's fair according to HS as a whole.
Now your personal playstyle will vary along with your own feeling of how you want to play. That includes netdecking, deck tracking, coaching, and so on. However, you MUST understand that your own code differs from the general public and, as such, you are in the same boat as a person who only allows themselves 20 seconds to play a turn or refuses to play certain deck archetypes.
You are self limiting yourself. Your opponent will, in general, not do the same. You have no reason to expect or demand your opponent to follow rules not adopted by the community, no matter how reasonable or logical those rules are to you. Accept it and play accordingly.
I think the crux of my point has been a little buried with the back and forth. If you were sitting at home at your desk, with a pen and paper then yes that would work (though yuo might as well just use your app on the PC at that point).
But what is the likelihood of you carrying around a pen and paper when you're at the station, on the loo, in the bath, on the bus, at a mate's house, in a cafe, etc etc?
It's not very high. And also, every time you modify your deck, you have to modify your written lists (not to mention writing them out in the first place).
Pen and paper is "physically" viable, but not really "practically" viable to be honest.
You're putting that limitation on yourself. That does not make it unfair. You know the scenario of what you are playing and should play accordingly. If you can't play at a highly competitive level without a deck tracker or pen/paper then don't play competitive in those scenarios. Sometimes I play from work, on my iPad that has a faulty screen and sometimes registers touches that I don't make, or on a shitty internet connection. All of those scenarios affect my ability to play at a high level and I simply play casual or arena. If I choose to play in constructed, that doesnt mean it was unfair. That means that I chose to play despite knowing that I wouldn't play at my absolute best.
Just because your opponent may have made choices to ensure they play at their absolute best does not mean that it was an unfair game. Does a deck tracker give a competitive edge? Absolutely, but thats not what unfair means.
My point, however, is that the limitation of the problem isn't put on myself. The tools available to those on PC are basically not available to those on Mobile / Tablet - at least, not on iOS> From what was said earlier, there apparently is something for the Android.
By your argument, you are basically saying that "because this athlete chose to take steroids to give himself the best chance of winning, that is fine; I mean, the other athletes could have taken steroids if they "really" wanted to win"... It doesn't really work that way.
But the limitation is put on yourself. No matter what your reason for not using the tracker, its still available to you in some form. You could use pen and paper. You could develop your own app to keep track of the cards. You could team up with a friend and have them do nothing but track cards while you make decisions. There are a ton of ways to keep track of what cards have been played and just because you have not found one that works with your system doesnt mean that it is unfair that someone else uses one that works on their system. It is legal to track cards even when done through a 3rd party system that you did not create. We have been expressly told this. If it is legal then it is fair, regardless of why you decide not to use it.
The steroid comparison is ridiculous to me because steroids are banned in most professional sports. To me, its more like if a glove manufacturer didnt make a glove in your size and you complained that it was unfair for anyone to use that glove. The fact that you can't find a glove is not Blizzard's fault. Either find one that works with your system, create one (whether it be creating an app, a pen and paper, or a second device that you can take notes in), or learn to play without it. That's exactly the way it works. 3rd parties create products that can be used within the game. The governing body of the game decides if it is legal/fair. If you can't afford, use, or otherwise procure said 3rd party product then thats too bad for you. It is still fair to use those products regardless of why you can't/won't make use of them.
To me, its more like if a glove manufacturer didnt make a glove in your size and you complained that it was unfair for anyone to use that glove. The fact that you can't find a glove is not Blizzard's fault.
Now see, that comparison is ridiculous to me. It's more like if someone invented a golf-ball that has auto-targetting. But I only have normal regulation golf balls. Sure, I could go and try and "invent" some golf-targetting balls of my own. But since I don't have that ability, I'm forced to put up with playing against someone with an unfair advantage.
And no, the whole point is that I don't have the option to use this on an iPhone / iPad. That's the whole point. If my opponent was using pen and paper, then sure. I could do that to. But no, he's using something else entirely, so pen and paper literally has no comparison here. It's completely different.
To me, its more like if a glove manufacturer didnt make a glove in your size and you complained that it was unfair for anyone to use that glove. The fact that you can't find a glove is not Blizzard's fault.
Now see, that comparison is ridiculous to me. It's more like if someone invented a golf-ball that has auto-targetting. But I only have normal regulation golf balls. Sure, I could go and try and "invent" some golf-targetting balls of my own. But since I don't have that ability, I'm forced to put up with playing against someone with an unfair advantage.
And no, the whole point is that I don't have the option to use this on an iPhone / iPad. That's the whole point. If my opponent was using pen and paper, then sure. I could do that to. But no, he's using something else entirely, so pen and paper literally has no comparison here. It's completely different.
This is BS but as you used golf as an analogy. you could consider golf clubs types... You are allowed to use clubs that cost bugger all to carbon fibre (mortgage your house clubs) that are lighter and perform better.
If you chose to use a old fashioned wooden club with a head made of lead when you are allowed to use the super pro clubs then your a fool if you moan!!
Going back to the OP its simple - its not an unfair advantage because everyone can use it.
To me, its more like if a glove manufacturer didnt make a glove in your size and you complained that it was unfair for anyone to use that glove. The fact that you can't find a glove is not Blizzard's fault.
Now see, that comparison is ridiculous to me. It's more like if someone invented a golf-ball that has auto-targetting. But I only have normal regulation golf balls. Sure, I could go and try and "invent" some golf-targetting balls of my own. But since I don't have that ability, I'm forced to put up with playing against someone with an unfair advantage.
And no, the whole point is that I don't have the option to use this on an iPhone / iPad. That's the whole point. If my opponent was using pen and paper, then sure. I could do that to. But no, he's using something else entirely, so pen and paper literally has no comparison here. It's completely different.
This is BS but as you used golf as an analogy. you could consider golf clubs types... You are allowed to use clubs that cost bugger all to carbon fibre (mortgage your house clubs) that are lighter and perform better.
If you chose to use a old fashioned wooden club with a head made of lead when you are allowed to use the super pro clubs then your a fool if you moan!!
The golf analogy wasn't mine originally, mate. And no, it's not BS. Your own analogy there is simply incorrect. (There aren't two versions of Hearthstone that people can choose to use on any device) Carrying on with the golf analagoy though - It would be more like a golf club with a built in system to provide the exact amount of swing required to hit a ball the correct distance compared to one that doesn't have this technology. But only players who can play left-handed are allowed to use the better club. Right handed players can use it if they want to play left-handed though. But that's their loss if they choose not to.
Would you count cards at a poker table? I would. It's just like that, except not outlawed because there's no house to rob.
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Look, I want to tell you something because you're very dear to me. And I hope you understand that it comes from the bottom of my damaged, damaged heart. You are the finest piece of ass I've ever had and I don't care who knows it. I am so glad that I got to roam those hillsides.
Look, I want to tell you something because you're very dear to me. And I hope you understand that it comes from the bottom of my damaged, damaged heart. You are the finest piece of ass I've ever had and I don't care who knows it. I am so glad that I got to roam those hillsides.
To me, its more like if a glove manufacturer didnt make a glove in your size and you complained that it was unfair for anyone to use that glove. The fact that you can't find a glove is not Blizzard's fault.
Now see, that comparison is ridiculous to me. It's more like if someone invented a golf-ball that has auto-targetting. But I only have normal regulation golf balls. Sure, I could go and try and "invent" some golf-targetting balls of my own. But since I don't have that ability, I'm forced to put up with playing against someone with an unfair advantage.
And no, the whole point is that I don't have the option to use this on an iPhone / iPad. That's the whole point. If my opponent was using pen and paper, then sure. I could do that to. But no, he's using something else entirely, so pen and paper literally has no comparison here. It's completely different.
This is BS but as you used golf as an analogy. you could consider golf clubs types... You are allowed to use clubs that cost bugger all to carbon fibre (mortgage your house clubs) that are lighter and perform better.
If you chose to use a old fashioned wooden club with a head made of lead when you are allowed to use the super pro clubs then your a fool if you moan!!
The golf analogy wasn't mine originally, mate. And no, it's not BS. Your own analogy there is simply incorrect. (There aren't two versions of Hearthstone that people can choose to use on any device) Carrying on with the golf analagoy though - It would be more like a golf club with a built in system to provide the exact amount of swing required to hit a ball the correct distance compared to one that doesn't have this technology. But only players who can play left-handed are allowed to use the better club. Right handed players can use it if they want to play left-handed though. But that's their loss if they choose not to.
Hahahahaha this is just simply flawed! its not like a club that calculates swing at all. Have you actually seen one used a tracker i mean not a golf club :)
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...The problem is not the problem, the problem is your attitude to the problem.
Personal experience is when I've used card trackers I play worse. I spend more time looking at it then thinking.
I always have a notebook with me so if turns get complicated I just write it down... Or games like murlocpali to track Murlocs and card draw potential.
I believe the free hand way is better in competitive play since it requires you the player to focus more and think more, usually resulting in better outcomes.
There's also decks like pirate warrior, if someone feels they need a deck tracker to spew a hand it's as much a cheat as a taunt... Joke.
True, it does not, because Steroids are not allowed for anyone, so the one using them is legitimately cheating.
Personally, I use a tracker, and only play when I'm using it, but I turn off the interface that shows my deck or my opponents' played cards because I don't have a hard time remembering how many copies of key cards have been played, and after playing HS for 2 years +or so now (and CCGs/TCGs/LCGs for my entire life almost) I have a pretty good idea of the odds of drawing something I need at a given point in the game. If anything, using those features made me worse at keeping track of those things when the tracker wasn't working or I was playing mobile. I was gaining very little benefit from the feature, so I stopped using it (I actually only play with tracker because I want complete stats over the course of a month, not some games out of the analysis).
I recognize that playing card games for so long has made me a little better at this type of mental tracking than newer players, or people who just have a hard time with such things. I can't imagine begrudging them for using a tool to do the same thing when it's a tool available to everyone in some fashion or another.
Trying Real Hard To Keep Hunter Relevant
it gives an advantage to people with better memory, which i guess could be considered either unfair or skill-based depending on who you ask. some players like firebat can remember what's left in his deck perfectly, which i think is cool as hell.
Vvreeeew.
Honestly, I can't really get behind the idea that deck trackers really are doing anything unfair. You can certainly track what your opponent has played, what you've played, what cards your opponent has kept and the position in their hand all by memory or using a pen/paper. Is it easier to use a tracker? Absolutely! But I'll be quite honest... it generally won't make a difference as long as you're making solid contextual plays.
I'd be curious to see what the difference in winrate is between players who use deck trackers and don't (but possess similar skill levels)... I'd wager the difference is extremely, extremely miniscule. If you know how to use the data a deck tracker is giving you properly, odds are you could be doing it in your head. If you're just being given data but don't know how to integrate that into forming lines of play, you're not really gaining much of an advantage.
Articles I suggest every player reads to improve at the game;
MTG/Hearthstone biases to avoid
Reframing negative Hearthstone experiences to improve at the game
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Not really unfair since you can track them also if you wanted. It is an advantage for sure though.
Now as a whole I honestly don't think it should be allowed. They don't track cards in poker tourneys. They count them. Same should apply here. Just my opinion though.
Stay thirsty my friends
Definitely not cheating and I actually belief they should build in tracker into the game by themselves.
Stay thirsty my friends
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
...The problem is not the problem, the problem is your attitude to the problem.
And no, it's not BS. Your own analogy there is simply incorrect. (There aren't two versions of Hearthstone that people can choose to use on any device) Carrying on with the golf analagoy though - It would be more like a golf club with a built in system to provide the exact amount of swing required to hit a ball the correct distance compared to one that doesn't have this technology.
But only players who can play left-handed are allowed to use the better club.
Right handed players can use it if they want to play left-handed though. But that's their loss if they choose not to.
Would you count cards at a poker table? I would. It's just like that, except not outlawed because there's no house to rob.
Look, I want to tell you something because you're very dear to me. And I hope you understand that it comes from the bottom of my damaged, damaged heart. You are the finest piece of ass I've ever had and I don't care who knows it. I am so glad that I got to roam those hillsides.
Look, I want to tell you something because you're very dear to me. And I hope you understand that it comes from the bottom of my damaged, damaged heart. You are the finest piece of ass I've ever had and I don't care who knows it. I am so glad that I got to roam those hillsides.
...The problem is not the problem, the problem is your attitude to the problem.
...The problem is not the problem, the problem is your attitude to the problem.
Personal experience is when I've used card trackers I play worse. I spend more time looking at it then thinking.
I always have a notebook with me so if turns get complicated I just write it down... Or games like murlocpali to track Murlocs and card draw potential.
I believe the free hand way is better in competitive play since it requires you the player to focus more and think more, usually resulting in better outcomes.
There's also decks like pirate warrior, if someone feels they need a deck tracker to spew a hand it's as much a cheat as a taunt... Joke.
Blizzard flat out said that card tracking programs are fine, so no it's not an unfair advantage.