Hearthpwn

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Quote from Iplaywhite >>

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Quote from Iplaywhite >>

Yes, it is clearly an advantage over another player not using it. instantaneous information allows you much more time to think about optimal plays rather than doing the math in your head.

Allowing the visual cue of 100% remembering that they have held a card for 6 turns or a card was from discover etc, is something we don't always pay attention to during the course of a game as it flows and reminds you that it is either a tech/combo piece/ late game card etc.

Ex: Turn 8 they've played 2 nourish and azure drake, you don't typically remember they haven't played their second card from mulligan unless it's staring you in the face with a big circle and 1 over top of the card.

It's a joke to say it doesn't provide an advantage, and I'd like to meet the person who does all of this each turn of every game in pen and paper.

 

 Is it not a case of you are possibly putting yourself at a disadvantage by not using it? rather than it being an advantage to use it...

/from a certain point of view...

It is true that I am at a disadvantage by not using it in general, but that isn't the salient point. 

In this case we have a baseline of the game that doesn't have this functionality included in it. When I load up HS by itself i don't have the option to click tracker, I have to actively seek out a third party app and simultaneously load it up. Sure it's "legal" but to me not within the spirit of the original game, and provides a notable advantage for most. 

 OK another analogy.. (sorry)

Tenpin bowling....

You can play with the house balls which are provided at the lanes or you can actively go out an buy from a third-party a Pro ball which WILL give you an edge..

Quote from nevr3000 >>

Quote from scorpyon >>

 But with the addendum that the pro-balls have holes that don't fit your fingers, so you can't use them even if you wanted to.
e.g. - like trying to use the 3rd party software on iOS

 So would you say that it's the ball's fault that some people can't use it, and because of that shouldn't be allowed for the people who can?

It would be awesome if they did - but I'm not sure they care that much unfortunately. 
They're more concerned with over-nerfing the wrong cards in a knee-jerk reaction to vocal minorities at the moment.

But that's a conversation for another thread... :-D

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Quote from scorpyon >>

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Quote from scorpyon >>

 But with the addendum that the pro-balls have holes that don't fit your fingers, so you can't use them even if you wanted to.
e.g. - like trying to use the 3rd party software on iOS

 So would you say that it's the ball's fault that some people can't use it, and because of that shouldn't be allowed for the people who can?

 No, it's two things:
It's a) the ball manufacturer's fault for not catering to all hand sizes. And b) The tournament "regulator"s fault for allowing balls that cannot be used by all participants (and not stipulating regulated usage for all balls to accommodate all hand sizes)

The ball itself is an inanimate object and can't have "fault" conferred...

I don't think I've ever had to say "balls" as much as that before. I like this analogy. It's a load of balls! Hehehe!

 In my opinion allowing to play (at least originally) a PC game on mobile devices like iPads is more like allowing people to use a baseball in a tenpin game.
Sure the baseball is customized so that you could use it to play bowling easier with it.
However it does not mean it is optimal for the game. Think of it more of like a bonus I guess?

Another example would be playing with a notebook touchpad.
Every time my opponent plays Nozdormu (pfft who plays that card) I am screwed considering how hard it is to perform quick actions using a touchpad.
Does that mean Nozdormu is to blame? Well to me it's just my fault for playing with a touchpad.

Quote from nevr3000>>

Quote from scorpyon>>

 No, it's two things:
It's a) the ball manufacturer's fault for not catering to all hand sizes. And b) The tournament "regulator"s fault for allowing balls that cannot be used by all participants (and not stipulating regulated usage for all balls to accommodate all hand sizes)

The ball itself is an inanimate object and can't have "fault" conferred...

I don't think I've ever had to say "balls" as much as that before. I like this analogy. It's a load of balls! Hehehe!

There is some absurdity implied here in my opinion. It seems that fair to you means that everyone should be pulled down to the lowest common denominator.

Amputees aren't barred from playing soccer, but that shouldn't imply that everyone with two legs should be toned down to level the playing field for players with prostethics.

 

If a game doesn't support colorblind options, I'm at a disadvantage versus people who aren't colorblind, but being colorblind is not the status quo.

If the tenpin bowling community/regulation allows specialized balls, regardless that there is a portion of players who can't use these, doesn't mean the rules are unfair.

And in the case of Hearthstone, it's not the fault of the manufacturers of trackers not catering to everyone, it's one platform not supporting it.

ps. This is all hyperbolic. I do not believe in anyway that not using a tracker vs using a tracker is a handicap as bad as being an amputee.

Quote from nevr3000>>

If you believe the lowest common denominator should be brought up to the highest, it's not a question if the advantage is unfair or not.

This is my main gripe with this thread. Litterally noone said it wasn't an advantage.

I only have issue with that you equate it in multiple different examples and analogies as a "cheat", that the people who do have the ability to use one are unsportsman-like or outright "on steroids" for using a tracker.

(Even in this reply, you liken it to a ball that throws strikes for you... While it's more like a ball that's keeping score of how many strikes you bowled).

I'd love to see an IOS tracker, or even an ingame implementation. The first is dependant on Apple, the second on Blizz... And judging by the time they need to make a slider for deck slots, I wouldn't hold my breath and I'm glad there are 3rd party devs and hobbyists who work on things like this.

Quote from nevr3000>>

 If you do not consider it a cheat, don't equate it to something that gives you solutions, steroids, and so on.

Of course, my retort of saying "it's more like a ball keeping score" is partially correct, but it's more in line with what a tracker actually does as opposed to something that tells you how to throw the ball (or which card to play, in HS' situation).

Neither is it comparable to saying "they have no idea who is technically winning" as if you're completely in the dark about what's in your deck if you're not using a tracker. This is either a false equation or misrepresentation.

For the last part: It's a limitation in IOS why there aren't trackers on this platform. IOS does not support apps to interact, so overlays or extracting information from the HS app to use in a tracker app is simply not possible (yet). Again, this is going to depend on how IOS expands in this regard.

Quote from nevr3000>>

In regard to the analogies, if you want to give example of things that give a group a legitimate advantage, it's best to use examples of legitimate advantages and not of things which are flat out cheats.

Analogies are not by definition flawed, or only logically sound by proximity.

By using actual cheats as example, you are already setting up your own premise that it is to be considered unfair.

To respond to the absolute certainty: You're moving the goal posts. I mention you presented as if without decker there is complete darkness and mystery to what's left in your deck, which is false.

Mentioning that with a tracker you have absolute certainty is a different than saying that without tracker you are just without knowledge.

It cost more attention/effort? Agreed... But that is not the same as flat out stating you only have certainty with a tracker.