I've just played against a secret mage in plat 1. I'm on a win streak, so I believe their rank is somewhere close to mine. They were playing polymorph. A POLYMORPH, people. I'm testing tempo and tess rogue variants to see how well they fare in wild. I'd magnetised two SN1P-SN4P on my Efficient Octo-bot and needless to say I was tilted for a bit.
My point being: none. I dunno why they played it and I don't want to. I just wanted to share this epiphanic experience, because I'm neither salty nor am I feeling good. Just maintain low expectations for most of the secret mage players. They are a helpless bunch. Their brains ought to be close to getting fried by now, but some still resist the rust rotting their brain due to having played it incessantly for the last couple of years. Them and the resurrect players just don't get tired of it, so unless Blizz fundamentally changes them or attacks their key cards, some losers will continue to play them.
It is a tech card vs big priest and buff decks like yours. Many players enjoy winning, and want to play whatever wins them the most games and gets them to legend faster. Nothing wrong with that.
Regarding the debate about combo mages, Secret mage is actually a MUCH stronger deck in terms of winrate. Kabal Lackey into Rigged Faire Game is an extremely strong opener for a deck like that.
One correction I want to make is that I'm not playing a buff-oriented deck. SN1p is the only card that "buffs" anything. The rest are combo and battlecry cards. I also don't play any weapon, only surprise damage. I won the game regardless. I'm also pretty sure that it makes their deck worse on the whole scale. For a tiny increment in potential win rate against priest, not even guaranteed at that, at the cost of your win rate against other match-ups. Tough luck. Below is the current tempo deck. it performed greatly thus far. Tech choices depend on one's rank rather than their preference. I'd still keep anti-secrets until legend.
That is one of the fundamental mechanics of Hearthstone which distinguishes it from other card games.
So when one class has spells which don't cost mana, and every other class has to pay mana, it creates an "us and them" environment. Like we are playing two different games.
Flamewaker mage definitely needs a big nerf. As a Wild player it's the most broken deck I've seen so far. It can OTK you through any board you have even by turn 4 and is way above the power level of an aggro deck fighting for the board, which makes it even more busted. Incanter's Flow and Sorcerer's Apprentice should have a limitation of not reducing cost below 1, Conjure Mana Biscuit should refresh only 1 mana, Refreshing Spring Water should refresh 1 mana per card drawn and Flamewaker should probably target minions only. Wild may sit at a high power level, but even so things that are oppressive or not fun to play against should be nerfed.
Flamewaker, Biscuit, Incanter's Flow, even Spring Water, these cards are all fine. Every time Mage has access to broken & degenerate combos in wild there is a single card that is always behind it: Sorcerer's Apprentice. Otherwise the next broken combo is always just around the corner. Now regarding the actual power level of wild, APM Mage is probably tier 1, but doesn't dominate the format to such a degree that a nerf is required, primarily because it has various hard counters (Secret Mage with Runes, Priest and Warlock decks running Dirty Rat....)
Of course you can counter it. Every deck can be countered by something. Just because it can doesn't mean it doesn't need a nerf. If a deck is too powerful, not fun and overshadows other decks it needs to be adjusted. Just because it is Wild, doesn't mean it's fine.
The mentioned cards in Flamewaker mage all work together to make it so good. Changing Apprentice alone won't do much, when the other cards make everything cost nothing even without Apprentice. The deck plays with too much free mana.
Draw 2 cards and get 4 mana, yeah that seems like a good idea to make such a card ...hahahah, what a joke.
Oppressive is the right way to describe it. Im playing between D5 to Legend and i have 71% of my matchup against the same deck. Its not like i would lose to much, but the addition of double Ice Block seriously makes it hard to win.
According to Vicious Syndicate live mages sit at ~ 27% compared to other classes being roughly around 10%. Even priest, which is second highest played class, sits at ~ 14%. I'm sure it's all fine.
Of course you can counter it. Every deck can be countered by something. Just because it can doesn't mean it doesn't need a nerf. If a deck is too powerful, not fun and overshadows other decks it needs to be adjusted. Just because it is Wild, doesn't mean it's fine.
The mentioned cards in Flamewaker mage all work together to make it so good. Changing Apprentice alone won't do much, when the other cards make everything cost nothing even without Apprentice. The deck plays with too much free mana.
Even if Incanter's Flow makes all spells in the deck cost 0, the deck still runs a ton of spells that generate other spells (Runed Orb, Ray of Frost, Primordial Glyph, etc...). This is where apprentice and her mana cheat enabling really shines
Even if Incanter's Flow makes all spells in the deck cost 0, the deck still runs a ton of spells that generate other spells (Runed Orb, Ray of Frost, Primordial Glyph, etc...). This is where apprentice and her mana cheat enabling really shines
True, but it's still used in other mage decks, which don't require a nerf so I'm gonna correct myself suggesting one for it. The same can be said for Flamewaker as it is not that broken without mana cheats from Incanter's Flow, Mana Biscuit and Spring Water. Apprentice would make it a bit too good, but without the insane mana shenanigans outside of that it would be fine.
One correction I want to make is that I'm not playing a buff-oriented deck. SN1p is the only card that "buffs" anything. The rest are combo and battlecry cards. I also don't play any weapon, only surprise damage. I won the game regardless. I'm also pretty sure that it makes their deck worse on the whole scale. For a tiny increment in potential win rate against priest, not even guaranteed at that, at the cost of your win rate against other match-ups. Tough luck. Below is the current tempo deck. it performed greatly thus far. Tech choices depend on one's rank rather than their preference. I'd still keep anti-secrets until legend.
I actually run 2 polymorphs, 2 potion of polymorph, 2 counter spell, and one spellbender in my secret mage. I do this to deal with cancer rez priest which imo is the most stupid deck in HS
Secret mage has a lot of powerful synergies but at the end of the day it's a tempo deck and can be beat by many other decks. I have beaten secret mage a bunch with other classes and highlander based decks.
APM mage is more problematic for being able to consistently spit out 30 to 70 damage in a turn, but I will say it is hard to pull off on phone before rope timer runs out (esp the discover cards which take a second or two each).
The issue is sorceress apprentice, if it is changed to not be able to reduce cards to 0 problem would be fixed.
I'm not sure Mage is "oppressive". But clearly someone in Blizzard loves Mage. They've given Mage so many win conditions and powerful cards. Other classes are more limited, some are way more limited.
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Dependable loan sharks since 1960. We sink our teeth into every deal we make.
According to the latest VS report for wild, APM Mage is the most popular deck in wild, but sits proudly at... tier 3! Frankly I am not surprised. Although the deck can feel quite broken, it has some very hard counters and its popularity led to an increase in popularity of the decks that counter it and there are way too many counters: Secret Mage with their Explosive Runes, Reno Secret Mage with Potion of Polymorph as a tech, Reno Priest with Illucia, various reno and non-reno control decks (mostly Warlocks) with Dirty Rat, Reno Hunter with Snipe and Pressure Plate, Even Hunter with 2 copies of those secrets, decks like Darkglare and Handbuff Paladin running Loatheb and sometimes also Cult Neophyte....
Make them drop the apprentice or the flamewalker before they are ready to go off.
Kill it.
Ah ha. I knew someone was going to say that. Guess what? Many classes can’t kill it when summoned though. Or, it’s better to say that dirty rat is a multiple card combo where everything has to fall into perfect place to MAYBE counter the biggest cancer deck in the history of CCGs. Dirty rat does NOT work unless played fairly late and you have a way to kill the Flametard right there. Play him on turn two which is nice tempo is game over for most classes if he pulls flametard. And even when it "works" what are you doing about the second copy of flametard? You running two rats? Yeah right. Good luck having two rats pull exactly what’s needed plus having needed removal in hand too. Got a better chance of winning the powerball lotto twice in a row.
So let’s say it’s turn 4/5 and you use the Rat and pull flametard. Then you kill it. Yeeeahhh. You just won, didn’t you? Oh...wait..... it’s turn 4/5 and guess what? They have two flametards. So, next turn they drop flametard #2 of 2 and sorceress and draw their entire deck. And you still lose. So, let’s be clear here: there is NO "cute" or sneaky counter to moron mage. None. Zip. It’s is beyond obscene. And don’t gimme win rate BS either or any other "well at high legend blah blah ". No one cares. Gut the deck and send it to the free dust pile. I’m usually never a fan of outright destroying a deck but this one is a true no brainer. Just make flametard ONLY hit minions. Or, spells can never cost zero. Start there. And that’s that.
The below 50% WR of the deck in the meta reports is mainly because of the players who cant calculate the burst. I just played one game with one of my weakest rogue decks for quest completion and managed to win despite him having all going for him.
Enjoy one of the most incompetent APM players out there to whom removal and board seems to be a foreign concept:
It is a tech card vs big priest and buff decks like yours. Many players enjoy winning, and want to play whatever wins them the most games and gets them to legend faster. Nothing wrong with that.
Regarding the debate about combo mages, Secret mage is actually a MUCH stronger deck in terms of winrate. Kabal Lackey into Rigged Faire Game is an extremely strong opener for a deck like that.
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One correction I want to make is that I'm not playing a buff-oriented deck. SN1p is the only card that "buffs" anything. The rest are combo and battlecry cards. I also don't play any weapon, only surprise damage. I won the game regardless. I'm also pretty sure that it makes their deck worse on the whole scale. For a tiny increment in potential win rate against priest, not even guaranteed at that, at the cost of your win rate against other match-ups. Tough luck. Below is the current tempo deck. it performed greatly thus far. Tech choices depend on one's rank rather than their preference. I'd still keep anti-secrets until legend.
### Ruj
# Class: Rogue
# Format: Wild
# 2x (0) Backstab
# 2x (0) Shadowstep
# 1x (1) Brain Freeze
# 1x (1) Prize Plunderer
# 1x (1) Secret Passage
# 2x (1) Wand Thief
# 2x (2) Efficient Octo-bot
# 2x (2) Eviscerate
# 2x (2) Foxy Fraud
# 2x (2) Swindle
# 2x (2) Wicked Stab (Rank 1)
# 1x (3) Coerce
# 1x (3) Edwin VanCleef
# 1x (3) Mankrik
# 1x (3) SN1P-SN4P
# 1x (4) Eater of Secrets
# 2x (4) Fal'dorei Strider
# 1x (4) Infiltrator Lilian
# 1x (5) Stowaway
# 1x (5) Zilliax
# 1x (6) Flik Skyshiv
#
AAEBAYO6AgyyAoivAqCAA76uA8GuA5+3A6rLA8fOA4rQA6vSA/PdA+fwAwmIB9zRAqTRA9/dA+fdA6rrA6vrA5GfBPafBAA=
Mage spells need to have a mana cost.
That is one of the fundamental mechanics of Hearthstone which distinguishes it from other card games.
So when one class has spells which don't cost mana, and every other class has to pay mana, it creates an "us and them" environment. Like we are playing two different games.
Flamewaker mage definitely needs a big nerf. As a Wild player it's the most broken deck I've seen so far. It can OTK you through any board you have even by turn 4 and is way above the power level of an aggro deck fighting for the board, which makes it even more busted. Incanter's Flow and Sorcerer's Apprentice should have a limitation of not reducing cost below 1, Conjure Mana Biscuit should refresh only 1 mana, Refreshing Spring Water should refresh 1 mana per card drawn and Flamewaker should probably target minions only. Wild may sit at a high power level, but even so things that are oppressive or not fun to play against should be nerfed.
Flamewaker, Biscuit, Incanter's Flow, even Spring Water, these cards are all fine. Every time Mage has access to broken & degenerate combos in wild there is a single card that is always behind it: Sorcerer's Apprentice. Otherwise the next broken combo is always just around the corner. Now regarding the actual power level of wild, APM Mage is probably tier 1, but doesn't dominate the format to such a degree that a nerf is required, primarily because it has various hard counters (Secret Mage with Runes, Priest and Warlock decks running Dirty Rat....)
Of course you can counter it. Every deck can be countered by something. Just because it can doesn't mean it doesn't need a nerf. If a deck is too powerful, not fun and overshadows other decks it needs to be adjusted. Just because it is Wild, doesn't mean it's fine.
The mentioned cards in Flamewaker mage all work together to make it so good. Changing Apprentice alone won't do much, when the other cards make everything cost nothing even without Apprentice. The deck plays with too much free mana.
The funny thing is, that this post was made before Refreshing Spring Water came out lol!!!!
Draw 2 cards and get 4 mana, yeah that seems like a good idea to make such a card ...hahahah, what a joke.
Oppressive is the right way to describe it. Im playing between D5 to Legend and i have 71% of my matchup against the same deck. Its not like i would lose to much, but the addition of double Ice Block seriously makes it hard to win.
According to Vicious Syndicate live mages sit at ~ 27% compared to other classes being roughly around 10%. Even priest, which is second highest played class, sits at ~ 14%. I'm sure it's all fine.
Even if Incanter's Flow makes all spells in the deck cost 0, the deck still runs a ton of spells that generate other spells (Runed Orb, Ray of Frost, Primordial Glyph, etc...). This is where apprentice and her mana cheat enabling really shines
True, but it's still used in other mage decks, which don't require a nerf so I'm gonna correct myself suggesting one for it. The same can be said for Flamewaker as it is not that broken without mana cheats from Incanter's Flow, Mana Biscuit and Spring Water. Apprentice would make it a bit too good, but without the insane mana shenanigans outside of that it would be fine.
I actually run 2 polymorphs, 2 potion of polymorph, 2 counter spell, and one spellbender in my secret mage. I do this to deal with cancer rez priest which imo is the most stupid deck in HS
Secret mage has a lot of powerful synergies but at the end of the day it's a tempo deck and can be beat by many other decks. I have beaten secret mage a bunch with other classes and highlander based decks.
APM mage is more problematic for being able to consistently spit out 30 to 70 damage in a turn, but I will say it is hard to pull off on phone before rope timer runs out (esp the discover cards which take a second or two each).
The issue is sorceress apprentice, if it is changed to not be able to reduce cards to 0 problem would be fixed.
Even then snipe and explosive runes can kill APM
I'm not sure Mage is "oppressive". But clearly someone in Blizzard loves Mage. They've given Mage so many win conditions and powerful cards. Other classes are more limited, some are way more limited.
Dependable loan sharks since 1960. We sink our teeth into every deal we make.
Dirty Rat can be a lifesaver here.
Make them drop the apprentice or the flamewalker before they are ready to go off.
Kill it.
According to the latest VS report for wild, APM Mage is the most popular deck in wild, but sits proudly at... tier 3! Frankly I am not surprised. Although the deck can feel quite broken, it has some very hard counters and its popularity led to an increase in popularity of the decks that counter it and there are way too many counters: Secret Mage with their Explosive Runes, Reno Secret Mage with Potion of Polymorph as a tech, Reno Priest with Illucia, various reno and non-reno control decks (mostly Warlocks) with Dirty Rat, Reno Hunter with Snipe and Pressure Plate, Even Hunter with 2 copies of those secrets, decks like Darkglare and Handbuff Paladin running Loatheb and sometimes also Cult Neophyte....
Ah ha. I knew someone was going to say that. Guess what? Many classes can’t kill it when summoned though. Or, it’s better to say that dirty rat is a multiple card combo where everything has to fall into perfect place to MAYBE counter the biggest cancer deck in the history of CCGs. Dirty rat does NOT work unless played fairly late and you have a way to kill the Flametard right there. Play him on turn two which is nice tempo is game over for most classes if he pulls flametard. And even when it "works" what are you doing about the second copy of flametard? You running two rats? Yeah right. Good luck having two rats pull exactly what’s needed plus having needed removal in hand too. Got a better chance of winning the powerball lotto twice in a row.
So let’s say it’s turn 4/5 and you use the Rat and pull flametard. Then you kill it. Yeeeahhh. You just won, didn’t you? Oh...wait..... it’s turn 4/5 and guess what? They have two flametards. So, next turn they drop flametard #2 of 2 and sorceress and draw their entire deck. And you still lose. So, let’s be clear here: there is NO "cute" or sneaky counter to moron mage. None. Zip. It’s is beyond obscene. And don’t gimme win rate BS either or any other "well at high legend blah blah ". No one cares. Gut the deck and send it to the free dust pile. I’m usually never a fan of outright destroying a deck but this one is a true no brainer. Just make flametard ONLY hit minions. Or, spells can never cost zero. Start there. And that’s that.
Just fix this problem and every future problem with an universal rule:
Cost reduction effects can't reduce the cost below 1, only cards especifically made to cost 0 can be played for free.
End of all problems of this kind forever.
The below 50% WR of the deck in the meta reports is mainly because of the players who cant calculate the burst. I just played one game with one of my weakest rogue decks for quest completion and managed to win despite him having all going for him.
Enjoy one of the most incompetent APM players out there to whom removal and board seems to be a foreign concept:
https://hsreplay.net/replay/DwZXqTKmsZzKFSjdNhM7EQ