Hearthstone is inherently a creature based card game. Get dudes to stick on the board, control that board, smash face is generally the game plan. Of course, there are some classes that should be better at control or aggro than others, that's the whole point of class identity. And as such, Warrior should generally be better at controlling the board.
But when is it too much? When has the class identity been amped up to the point of no return, to the point where some archetypes (and therefore some classes) are almost entirely shut out of the game? In my opinion? Right now.
It certainly seems as though warrior has achieved this critical mass of removal - Hearthstone being a game about sticking guys on the board for all decks that aren't control, removal is inherently incredibly strong. This is why it's severely limited in design for most cards - Execute requires a minion to be damaged, Naturalize gave your opponent cards, Vilespine Slayer required you to combo, Walk the Plank requires a minion to be at full health, etc. Warrior has near unconditional removal, and not just one or two cards, tons.
Let's start with Omega Devastator - a Yeti that has a mech tag is already power creep over vanilla, but that's nothing new. What if it had rush because you played Dr. Boom? Oh, and it dealt 10 damage the only time you'd consider playing it. And it was very easy to discover because it's a class card, so you're almost always playing 3 or more of them in a game.
Shield Slam in theory uses this restrictive design, but in the current meta Warriors are gaining armor with little effort. Dyn-o-matic again attempts to restrict its usefulness by adding the random element - it could hit your own board!
... if you ran any other non-mechs. Or were ever going to have a board state at all when you wanted to play it.
Speaking of non-mechs, how about Militia Commander? You printed a sidegrade to Fireball in Warrior, Blizzard. That you can tutor for.
These are just a few examples of how much removal Warrior has in the current version of the game - look at any given list, and you'll find that at least half of the deck is straight up removal. When Hearthstone has no real "burn" deck to win the game without creatures, and no viable combo deck in the current meta, how do you beat the critical mass of removal? Hope they draw poorly and you draw well.
Because I know people will say it if I don't, I'm not implying there are no other issues in the game right now and that it would become a utopia if only warrior had some cards nerfed - I've just chosen to focus on one thing at a time.
Agreed. It's too much. The whole point of the game should be to make decisions wether or not to use the removal at a certain point in the game. For warrior it doesn't seem to matter. Because they always have a good answer or stall untill they find it anyway.
It's ridiculous to play against, because you can bait out removal all you want, the next answer will be in their hand or next draw.
It's ridiculous to play with because I don't even feel like I'm doing anything. Just removing their board over and over without making any hard decisions untill my opponent is sick of it and concedes.
And that's exactly what I'm talking about, some of these decks just don't exist anymore because Warrior has been made the holy grail of control decks - why play anything else?
The game is cyclical. If Warrior is the strong boi right now, he will be weak eventually. Remember how Priest used to be top dog, with the DK and Raza? Now look at it.
Very good thread. Couldnt agree more. I think its careless balance that causes these issues. Bomb warrior/Control warrior is a problem cause there are too few answers to them. In the same breath I will say token decks are a problem cause only warrior can answer them effectively.
If we want a meta that is dynamic, you need to produce more answers to the different archetypes that show up. Due to this the devs need to predict better what archetypes will be dominant.
The game is cyclical. If Warrior is the strong boi right now, he will be weak eventually. Remember how Priest used to be top dog, with the DK and Raza? Now look at it.
I'm not over stressed.
Warrior has had good decks lots of times. And lots of Warrior decks have been hit with nerfs.
Priest was only good in Standard one time - when it was turned into an OP machine gun. I'm genuinely concerned about the class. Can't win with Mind Blast anymore. WTH is left? DS/IF? They are talking about getting rid of that as well.
The only answer is to play Mechs with Magnetic. We have Paladin, Warlock, Hunter, and even Shaman that can counter with straight up Mechs.
Problem is the game turns into a very boring repetitive match up.
It's not even fun to play Rogue anymore (unless you want to shuffle Pogo). Priest, forget it.
Druid. Concede.
I'm sick of Magnetic Mechs ruling the Meta. Even if you play Warrior there is no way to stop it unless you get a good draw.
It's always the same thing. You can play any deck you want, until you start to hit Warriors and Mechs, then your winrate drops to 30%. And you're forced to play one or the other.
I think the title should be more about the problem with Mechs.
blizzard does this on purpose. its incredibly easier to balance a meta around a few very strong decks than balancing it around all classes with many different decks.
ultimately this also generates WAY more $$$$ for them as people have to shift between OP classes/decks quite frequently if they wanna stay competitive instead of having a balanced game where you could focus on lets say the same 2-3 classes <- that would make f2p insanely more easy, which is way blizzard purposely does not even try to create truly balanced metas.
so yeah deal with it and have fun or look for another gam honestly
blizzard does this on purpose. its incredibly easier to balance a meta around a few very strong decks than balancing it around all classes with many different decks.
ultimately this also generates WAY more $$$$ for them as people have to shift between OP classes/decks quite frequently if they wanna stay competitive instead of having a balanced game where you could focus on lets say the same 2-3 classes <- that would make f2p insanely more easy, which is way blizzard purposely does not even try to create truly balanced metas.
so yeah deal with it and have fun or look for another gam honestly
Keep in mind, this takes 3 months to evolve.
You can still have fun playing whatever deck you want, it's just that in Standard, if you want to play at rank 5 or above, get ready for 30 minute games on average and stupid Mech decks that have incredible burst.
2 more weeks and you will still see the same decks at rank 5 but occasionally you will see a new deck emerge with potential, and then mech warrior will evolve to counter it. And Mech other will add more tools to stay competitive.
And then it will be approximately a month for nerfs to come out to Dr. Boom and Zilliax. Hopefully Warrior will lose the give all mechs rush.
Or some kind of behind the scene nerf to the Hero Power.
Hearthstone is inherently a creature based card game. Get dudes to stick on the board, control that board, smash face is generally the game plan. Of course, there are some classes that should be better at control or aggro than others, that's the whole point of class identity. And as such, Warrior should generally be better at controlling the board.
But when is it too much? When has the class identity been amped up to the point of no return, to the point where some archetypes (and therefore some classes) are almost entirely shut out of the game? In my opinion? Right now.
It certainly seems as though warrior has achieved this critical mass of removal - Hearthstone being a game about sticking guys on the board for all decks that aren't control, removal is inherently incredibly strong. This is why it's severely limited in design for most cards - Execute requires a minion to be damaged, Naturalize gave your opponent cards, Vilespine Slayer required you to combo, Walk the Plank requires a minion to be at full health, etc. Warrior has near unconditional removal, and not just one or two cards, tons.
Let's start with Omega Devastator - a Yeti that has a mech tag is already power creep over vanilla, but that's nothing new. What if it had rush because you played Dr. Boom? Oh, and it dealt 10 damage the only time you'd consider playing it. And it was very easy to discover because it's a class card, so you're almost always playing 3 or more of them in a game.
Shield Slam in theory uses this restrictive design, but in the current meta Warriors are gaining armor with little effort. Dyn-o-matic again attempts to restrict its usefulness by adding the random element - it could hit your own board!
... if you ran any other non-mechs. Or were ever going to have a board state at all when you wanted to play it.
Speaking of non-mechs, how about Militia Commander? You printed a sidegrade to Fireball in Warrior, Blizzard. That you can tutor for.
These are just a few examples of how much removal Warrior has in the current version of the game - look at any given list, and you'll find that at least half of the deck is straight up removal. When Hearthstone has no real "burn" deck to win the game without creatures, and no viable combo deck in the current meta, how do you beat the critical mass of removal? Hope they draw poorly and you draw well.
CRUISIN YEEEAH! CRUISIN USA!
100% agreed.
Because I know people will say it if I don't, I'm not implying there are no other issues in the game right now and that it would become a utopia if only warrior had some cards nerfed - I've just chosen to focus on one thing at a time.
CRUISIN YEEEAH! CRUISIN USA!
Agreed. It's too much. The whole point of the game should be to make decisions wether or not to use the removal at a certain point in the game. For warrior it doesn't seem to matter. Because they always have a good answer or stall untill they find it anyway.
It's ridiculous to play against, because you can bait out removal all you want, the next answer will be in their hand or next draw.
It's ridiculous to play with because I don't even feel like I'm doing anything. Just removing their board over and over without making any hard decisions untill my opponent is sick of it and concedes.
And yet, Aggro Mech Hunter mops the floor with both Bomb and Control Warrior.
I've no clue what I'm doing...
Lol still not enough against mech hunter and token decks
Deathrattle > Warrior's removals.
agree and disagree here...........maybe with bomb warrior but not so much control warrior, in my experiance
Yeah but no value .. this means that control pruest can always fuck warrior :)
PRIEST
It sounds like you haven't played the game for a few years. Newsflash: Control Priest does not exist anymore.
The light has betrayed him.
And that's exactly what I'm talking about, some of these decks just don't exist anymore because Warrior has been made the holy grail of control decks - why play anything else?
CRUISIN YEEEAH! CRUISIN USA!
The game is cyclical. If Warrior is the strong boi right now, he will be weak eventually. Remember how Priest used to be top dog, with the DK and Raza? Now look at it.
I'm not over stressed.
Very good thread. Couldnt agree more. I think its careless balance that causes these issues. Bomb warrior/Control warrior is a problem cause there are too few answers to them. In the same breath I will say token decks are a problem cause only warrior can answer them effectively.
If we want a meta that is dynamic, you need to produce more answers to the different archetypes that show up. Due to this the devs need to predict better what archetypes will be dominant.
- Mimicry is the truest form of compliment -
Warrior has had good decks lots of times. And lots of Warrior decks have been hit with nerfs.
Priest was only good in Standard one time - when it was turned into an OP machine gun. I'm genuinely concerned about the class. Can't win with Mind Blast anymore. WTH is left? DS/IF? They are talking about getting rid of that as well.
This is all good. I agree 100%.
The only answer is to play Mechs with Magnetic. We have Paladin, Warlock, Hunter, and even Shaman that can counter with straight up Mechs.
Problem is the game turns into a very boring repetitive match up.
It's not even fun to play Rogue anymore (unless you want to shuffle Pogo). Priest, forget it.
Druid. Concede.
I'm sick of Magnetic Mechs ruling the Meta. Even if you play Warrior there is no way to stop it unless you get a good draw.
It's always the same thing. You can play any deck you want, until you start to hit Warriors and Mechs, then your winrate drops to 30%. And you're forced to play one or the other.
I think the title should be more about the problem with Mechs.
God I do miss some wholesome interactive creature based gameplay. Not the disgraceful gameplay now such as conj calling. Op is right.
Ps: nerf mage
for everyone who still hasn't noticed in 2k19:
blizzard does this on purpose. its incredibly easier to balance a meta around a few very strong decks than balancing it around all classes with many different decks.
ultimately this also generates WAY more $$$$ for them as people have to shift between OP classes/decks quite frequently if they wanna stay competitive instead of having a balanced game where you could focus on lets say the same 2-3 classes <- that would make f2p insanely more easy, which is way blizzard purposely does not even try to create truly balanced metas.
so yeah deal with it and have fun or look for another gam honestly
Keep in mind, this takes 3 months to evolve.
You can still have fun playing whatever deck you want, it's just that in Standard, if you want to play at rank 5 or above, get ready for 30 minute games on average and stupid Mech decks that have incredible burst.
2 more weeks and you will still see the same decks at rank 5 but occasionally you will see a new deck emerge with potential, and then mech warrior will evolve to counter it. And Mech other will add more tools to stay competitive.
And then it will be approximately a month for nerfs to come out to Dr. Boom and Zilliax. Hopefully Warrior will lose the give all mechs rush.
Or some kind of behind the scene nerf to the Hero Power.
Still he is no way any close dominant to what we saw previously.
On hsreplay warrior is on 2nd place in meta, among 3 classes with similar winrate.
I usually play wild, but for quests time to time i do play in standart on bomb-warrior and it's about 50%wr, depending on draw.
Mathematically there is NO PROBLEM.