Shaman would be balanced if the overload was canceled out, but a few cards (Such as Totem Golem) would need their mana costs raised and cards like Lava Shock or Unbound Elemental would need to be completely remade, so it would be a huge hassle for the game itself to completely remove overload
I'm not sure any of us want overload GONE, I certainly don't. Just handled a little differently. Overload is so interesting and has *so* much potential. Cards like Lava Shock have the right idea - give us incentives for overloading. Not all of them have to clear overload even - make a 1 mana card that heals for 3 for each overload you have. Make a minion that gets +1/+1 or +1 spellpower or something for each overload you have when summoned, or even an "unleash the overload" so to speak where you get a 1/1 for each locked mana crystal.
Maybe instead of RNG, give us a choice! I imagine lightning storm as a choose one: do 2 damage for 1 overload or do 3 damage for 2 overload. You could even do it so that each mana crystal you lock THIS TURN does something, sort of like VanCleef. Or a minion where every turn you play an overload card it gains divine shield. There are just so many awesome things overload can do, but unfortunately it's not being used to its potential. :(
overload fucks up the mana curve. the RNG is already a disadventage compared to other classes add it overload and the result is shaman is not to be found on ladder compared to other classes ofc
Then why were Shaman running even more Overload cards back when they were successful ? One of the best era for Shaman was pre-Naxx, and many lists of that time included cards like Stormforged Axe, Lightning Bolt, Feral Spirit & Unbound Elemental.
Oddly enough, as some of those cards became obsolete with Naxx/GvG, no good replacement with Overload came out : we were forced to replace them with non-overload counterpart (incidentally dropping Unbound as well), but that's also when our popularity started to drop...
Now, if you want the true reason for Shaman's demise, look no further than those pesky 1/1 : Shaman are extremely weak against these, and have no good way to deal with them. It's not a coincidence if Shaman dropped in popularity after Muster for Battle and Imp-losion were released. It's also no wonder if Shaman's renewal (first week after TGT) brutally ended : it's exactly when Secret Paladin invaded the ladder...
I just don't understand how awesome Overload is. I am not worthy. Totally solves the problem, doesn't it? Let me go ahead and delete the thread.
I knew you would understand.
Pretty spot on. Some small aoe effect or a flamewaker like card for shaman would solve a lot of issues. Overload is part of class identity for shaman, similar to choose one for druid. Also this is the first time I heard that druid is interesting, ramp mana and play your biggest minion, so engaging..
If those cards were like in OP post, everyone would run face shamans. So much burn. Burn that makes other burn spells cheaper. Burn that burns face with double bonus from spell damage. Burn that cost cheaper if you drop it after totem golem. And 2-drops. Just look at them. 3/4 with no downside, 3/2 windfury...
Nope, problem with shaman is the lack of comebacks. Once shaman lose board, battle tends to be lost.
However there IS a huge difference between optional 3 damage to minions and 2 damage to the face. First, synergy with shaman's hero power (3-4 AoE is crazy). Often 1 damage is the difference between a board wipe and a still lost-board, that makes a 50% chance to be huge so great. By logic, without any overload would still be a 4 mana spell. Many of the
Many GvG cards were weak and still have overload, with Neptulon as clear exception. But I don't like many of this designs. The totem synergy costs will tend to become useless (you are making shamans strictly dependant of totems wich often do nothing by themselves). Fireguardgets nerfed (turn 4 4/6 for another turn with 4 mana is better than turn 5 4/6. ANd other cards become stupid,like Doomhamer (it's bonkers even with overload), should cost 6 mana. Lava Burst becomes just too good. 5 damage is what a neutral damage spell would do with 4 mana. They just made mage to deal 6 instead of 5 because it was better sorceror (costed 5 mana before, tho). Warrior just happens to have a worse version of the actual Fireball. It is much more imba a 3 mana 5 damage than a 4 mana 6 damage.
If those cards were like in OP post, everyone would run face shamans. So much burn. Burn that makes other burn spells cheaper. Burn that burns face with double bonus from spell damage. Burn that cost cheaper if you drop it after totem golem. And 2-drops. Just look at them. 3/4 with no downside, 3/2 windfury...
Well yeah, it would be kind-of nice to see Malygos Shaman more closer to competitive tier. Malygos Warlock was fashionable for a while, but I haven't heard anything about that deck either since TGT.
The only deck that could be called a "burn" deck right now is Tempo Mage. To get anywhere near there, Shaman doesn't just need playable spells, it also needs a range of minions that can compete with Mana Wyrm, Sorcerer's Apprentice, Flamewaker, Spellslinger, Archmage Antonidas, Rhonin... One day, maybe.
We just had a thread about it. No, I don't think there is a single overload card that would be balanced without it, if you don't increase the mana cost / lower the effect. And that would miss exactly the point about what makes overload good.
There are currently 17 cards with Overload. IF you would simply delete Overload from them and make no other changes, 3 would move from trash tier to playable: Dunemaul Shaman, Siltfin Spiritwalker, Stormforged Axe. In addition, Doomhammer would move from meh to good, and Lava Burst from trash to top-tier. That's 5, more than zero.
Just to have a bit more fun playing around with overload, here are 4 Shaman cards that don't have overload originally but become really interesting when you add it...
Al'Akir: He's such a fun card, too bad he sees so little play. I'm sure he's worth 8 mana, but I'd still like to be able to play him on turn 4. In alpha, that may have been broken, but we live in a meta where Dragon decks drop a 3/5 on turn 3.
Far Sight: Now it's finally the tempo tool it should be.
Mistcaller: As a 4/4, you really want to drop this guy on turn 4, not 6. With his effect, you also want him down as soon as possible.
Tuskarr Totemic: Turns out the TGT version is about as good as a Razorfen Hunter, unless you hit a Totem Golem or a Flametongue. With the ability to play him on turn 2, he's the tempo card he should be. His stat line isn't better than Knife Juggler anyway.
Yes, that's what I said. Heartharena Ranking for a few weapons: Fiery War Axe 88, Death's Bite 82, Powermace 82, Arcanite Reaper 74, Stormforged Axe 74, Doomhammer 62, Ogre Warmaul 32. Heartharena seems to agree that Doomhammer is pretty meh. As for constructed, see post #5.
Al'Akir... Ok, looks like he's good in arena (90). But in constructed, I've seen him once, and I don't even remember whether that was a Shaman or an Unstable Portal.
For the rest, read my post #59 again. I think you didn't quite get what I was talking about. For example I never said Crackle works exactly the same as Execute, just that Crackle without overload would be about the same level of overpowered-ness.
The only deck that could be called a "burn" deck right now is Tempo Mage.
But that's wrong. The only deck that could be called a "burn" deck is facehunter. What burn do is ignoring minions and go face with each spell. You don't even need malycombo if you have burn like in OP-post, you just take arcane golems, leper gnomes, weapon for 2 etc. That would be sick with burn like that.
The only deck that could be called a "burn" deck right now is Tempo Mage.
But that's wrong. The only deck that could be called a "burn" deck is facehunter. What burn do is ignoring minions and go face with each spell. You don't even need malycombo if you have burn like in OP-post, you just take arcane golems, leper gnomes, weapon for 2 etc. That would be sick with burn like that.
A good Face Hunter is a bit more smart with his spells. It's often a good idea to clear the opponent's board with Quick Shot (unless you have a bow). Minions like Knife Juggler or Darnassus Aspirant should never stick. Kill Command is good against Shieldmasta or Belcher if you don't have an owl. If there is nothing to remove, you play minions or hero power. You keep those spells until you have your opponent in lethal range (or close to it).
There are Aggro Shaman decks, like the MrYagut Aggro Shaman. But this one is more like Aggro Paladin, not Face Hunter. I'm not sure if you could build a true Face Hunter equivalent. Your Hero Power doesn't support it, unless you use Charged Hammer. I also don't see a good replacement for Explosive Trap and Unleash the Hounds.
We just had a thread about it. No, I don't think there is a single overload card that would be balanced without it, if you don't increase the mana cost / lower the effect. And that would miss exactly the point about what makes overload good.
There are currently 17 cards with Overload. IF you would simply delete Overload from them and make no other changes, 3 would move from trash tier to playable: Dunemaul Shaman, Siltfin Spiritwalker, Stormforged Axe. In addition, Doomhammer would move from meh to good, and Lava Burst from trash to top-tier. That's 5, more than zero.
The thing that I think cripples Shaman isn't so much the Overload itself so much as the lack of interaction with it. Warlocks used to be the same with discarding cards and now they are starting to get cards to synergize it with. Shaman needs Overload synergy, and so far there has only been 2 cards in a total that do it; Unbound Elemental and Lava Shock. Give Shamans more cards to work around or with the Overload and you might just get the class back on its feet. I theorycrafted a couple for my Dragon concepts, which I will post below.
What in the world are you talking about? Discard was always viable. Doomguard and soulfire were played immensely. The only exception was succubus. That's 66.66% of the cards. Soulfire was nerfed because it was op. Also, I don't believe the discard deck will ever be a thing unless they make something extremely op. The issue with shaman is overload, which can be solved by EITHER adding good overload synergy cards or buffing them. Giving shaman more overload synergy cards is the same thing as buffing the class.
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My legendary count excluding adventure legendaries, dupes and old murk eye: 40
Thanks to everyone for your feedback. This was a really interesting discussion so far. It was fun to see which suggestions got people up in arms and which didn't. I decided to go back and make alternate versions of a few cards. Which ones are your favorites?
These versions for lava burst are much better, I like the middle one best, 3rd version I am not sure if it's good enough, but it introduces a new effect, so I find it cool. Totem golem is ok in game as it is, but 2nd version of your choices I like.
I think fireguard destroyer in game version is still better than both your variations though.
As for Al Akir, I run it in my midrange list that I reached rank 24 legend at one point last season (finished somewhere at<200 legend). He can be a good finisher, or secure the board with flametongue/rockbiter.
Edit: However, with that lava burst, I think your overall concept begins to focus entirely on totems, and just makes shaman more 1 dimensional/boring.
its not really all that inconsistent
the only reason why pryoblast is 10 i because everyone shouted at blizzard NERF. NOW!
maybe if lava burst had 1 overload it would be fine.
but however,the point of overload is do something other classes can do a turn or 2 earlier,with a drawback.
the thing is,lava burst isnt doing something other classes can do faster.
its pretty much skill command,but worse.
"you can't escape me"*
*or my mech mage.
I'm not sure any of us want overload GONE, I certainly don't. Just handled a little differently. Overload is so interesting and has *so* much potential. Cards like Lava Shock have the right idea - give us incentives for overloading. Not all of them have to clear overload even - make a 1 mana card that heals for 3 for each overload you have. Make a minion that gets +1/+1 or +1 spellpower or something for each overload you have when summoned, or even an "unleash the overload" so to speak where you get a 1/1 for each locked mana crystal.
Maybe instead of RNG, give us a choice! I imagine lightning storm as a choose one: do 2 damage for 1 overload or do 3 damage for 2 overload. You could even do it so that each mana crystal you lock THIS TURN does something, sort of like VanCleef. Or a minion where every turn you play an overload card it gains divine shield. There are just so many awesome things overload can do, but unfortunately it's not being used to its potential. :(
You mean, the MVP of a deck that is barely played? Right, it's awesome as it is. What was I thinking? A 2/5 for (5) with a situational draw mechanic.
Nightblade Argent Lance Flame Imp
Argent Watchman Argent Squire Frost Giant
Aviana Hogger Snipe Sea Giant
Pretty spot on. Some small aoe effect or a flamewaker like card for shaman would solve a lot of issues. Overload is part of class identity for shaman, similar to choose one for druid. Also this is the first time I heard that druid is interesting, ramp mana and play your biggest minion, so engaging..
the ONLY reason its barely played is because murloc decks are barely played.
not to mention when 80% of the cards in your deck are murlocs,its not exactly situational.
"you can't escape me"*
*or my mech mage.
If those cards were like in OP post, everyone would run face shamans. So much burn. Burn that makes other burn spells cheaper. Burn that burns face with double bonus from spell damage. Burn that cost cheaper if you drop it after totem golem. And 2-drops. Just look at them. 3/4 with no downside, 3/2 windfury...
Nope, problem with shaman is the lack of comebacks. Once shaman lose board, battle tends to be lost.
However there IS a huge difference between optional 3 damage to minions and 2 damage to the face. First, synergy with shaman's hero power (3-4 AoE is crazy). Often 1 damage is the difference between a board wipe and a still lost-board, that makes a 50% chance to be huge so great. By logic, without any overload would still be a 4 mana spell. Many of the
Many GvG cards were weak and still have overload, with Neptulon as clear exception. But I don't like many of this designs. The totem synergy costs will tend to become useless (you are making shamans strictly dependant of totems wich often do nothing by themselves). Fireguardgets nerfed (turn 4 4/6 for another turn with 4 mana is better than turn 5 4/6. ANd other cards become stupid,like Doomhamer (it's bonkers even with overload), should cost 6 mana. Lava Burst becomes just too good. 5 damage is what a neutral damage spell would do with 4 mana. They just made mage to deal 6 instead of 5 because it was better sorceror (costed 5 mana before, tho). Warrior just happens to have a worse version of the actual Fireball. It is much more imba a 3 mana 5 damage than a 4 mana 6 damage.
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Well yeah, it would be kind-of nice to see Malygos Shaman more closer to competitive tier. Malygos Warlock was fashionable for a while, but I haven't heard anything about that deck either since TGT.
The only deck that could be called a "burn" deck right now is Tempo Mage. To get anywhere near there, Shaman doesn't just need playable spells, it also needs a range of minions that can compete with Mana Wyrm, Sorcerer's Apprentice, Flamewaker, Spellslinger, Archmage Antonidas, Rhonin... One day, maybe.
love the idea
unfortunatelly, blizzard doesn't care at all
better to add some ragnaros cardback and shaman new portrait
Heroes never die.
There are currently 17 cards with Overload. IF you would simply delete Overload from them and make no other changes, 3 would move from trash tier to playable: Dunemaul Shaman, Siltfin Spiritwalker, Stormforged Axe. In addition, Doomhammer would move from meh to good, and Lava Burst from trash to top-tier. That's 5, more than zero.
Three more would move up to be on par with other OP cards. Crackle (on par with Execute) and Ancestral Knowledge (on par with Battle Rage). Neptulon would (arguably) be competitive to Dr. Boom.
A few cards would be completely bonkers, namely Dust Devil and Earth Elemental.
Just to have a bit more fun playing around with overload, here are 4 Shaman cards that don't have overload originally but become really interesting when you add it...
Al'Akir: He's such a fun card, too bad he sees so little play. I'm sure he's worth 8 mana, but I'd still like to be able to play him on turn 4. In alpha, that may have been broken, but we live in a meta where Dragon decks drop a 3/5 on turn 3.
Far Sight: Now it's finally the tempo tool it should be.
Mistcaller: As a 4/4, you really want to drop this guy on turn 4, not 6. With his effect, you also want him down as soon as possible.
Tuskarr Totemic: Turns out the TGT version is about as good as a Razorfen Hunter, unless you hit a Totem Golem or a Flametongue. With the ability to play him on turn 2, he's the tempo card he should be. His stat line isn't better than Knife Juggler anyway.
Yes, that's what I said. Heartharena Ranking for a few weapons: Fiery War Axe 88, Death's Bite 82, Powermace 82, Arcanite Reaper 74, Stormforged Axe 74, Doomhammer 62, Ogre Warmaul 32. Heartharena seems to agree that Doomhammer is pretty meh. As for constructed, see post #5.
Al'Akir... Ok, looks like he's good in arena (90). But in constructed, I've seen him once, and I don't even remember whether that was a Shaman or an Unstable Portal.
For the rest, read my post #59 again. I think you didn't quite get what I was talking about. For example I never said Crackle works exactly the same as Execute, just that Crackle without overload would be about the same level of overpowered-ness.
But that's wrong. The only deck that could be called a "burn" deck is facehunter. What burn do is ignoring minions and go face with each spell. You don't even need malycombo if you have burn like in OP-post, you just take arcane golems, leper gnomes, weapon for 2 etc. That would be sick with burn like that.
A good Face Hunter is a bit more smart with his spells. It's often a good idea to clear the opponent's board with Quick Shot (unless you have a bow). Minions like Knife Juggler or Darnassus Aspirant should never stick. Kill Command is good against Shieldmasta or Belcher if you don't have an owl. If there is nothing to remove, you play minions or hero power. You keep those spells until you have your opponent in lethal range (or close to it).
There are Aggro Shaman decks, like the MrYagut Aggro Shaman. But this one is more like Aggro Paladin, not Face Hunter. I'm not sure if you could build a true Face Hunter equivalent. Your Hero Power doesn't support it, unless you use Charged Hammer. I also don't see a good replacement for Explosive Trap and Unleash the Hounds.
removing overload from silt fin doesnt make a murloc deck viable (and therfore make the card playable)
"you can't escape me"*
*or my mech mage.
OP You've made most of these cards into balanced cards not op cards, which isn't good enough for constructed.
My legendary count excluding adventure legendaries, dupes and old murk eye: 40
$$$ spent on this game: 0
Check out my card collection: http://www.hearthpwn.com/members/MCFUser175154/collection
What in the world are you talking about? Discard was always viable. Doomguard and soulfire were played immensely. The only exception was succubus. That's 66.66% of the cards. Soulfire was nerfed because it was op. Also, I don't believe the discard deck will ever be a thing unless they make something extremely op. The issue with shaman is overload, which can be solved by EITHER adding good overload synergy cards or buffing them. Giving shaman more overload synergy cards is the same thing as buffing the class.
My legendary count excluding adventure legendaries, dupes and old murk eye: 40
$$$ spent on this game: 0
Check out my card collection: http://www.hearthpwn.com/members/MCFUser175154/collection
Thanks to everyone for your feedback. This was a really interesting discussion so far. It was fun to see which suggestions got people up in arms and which didn't. I decided to go back and make alternate versions of a few cards. Which ones are your favorites?
Shift Lava Shock to Lava Beam
Lava Beam 1 Mana Either summon a Lava Totem (2attack/3 health) or Deal 2 damage and unlock your overloaded crystals
New Unbound Elemental Battlecray gain +1/+1 for each overload crystal you have.
Problem is solved.
Spirits be with you man !
These versions for lava burst are much better, I like the middle one best, 3rd version I am not sure if it's good enough, but it introduces a new effect, so I find it cool. Totem golem is ok in game as it is, but 2nd version of your choices I like.
I think fireguard destroyer in game version is still better than both your variations though.
As for Al Akir, I run it in my midrange list that I reached rank 24 legend at one point last season (finished somewhere at<200 legend). He can be a good finisher, or secure the board with flametongue/rockbiter.
Edit: However, with that lava burst, I think your overall concept begins to focus entirely on totems, and just makes shaman more 1 dimensional/boring.