Paladin has the worst hero power in the game, Paladin has no good tempo cards like rogue, Paladin has no good face damage dealing cards, Paladin has no recover mechanics except for clears which is counter intuitive to the Pirate playstyle. Paladin is just shit.
This is comming from someone with more than 3000 Paladin wins.
One more thing, there is a reason to why Paladin decks has always been the decks that use neutral cards the most, that is because most of the class cards for him sucks huge ass. Even cards that were considered good before are now weak compared to new cards (like concecration).
Kolento tryed a paladin pirate list. Being the incredible player he is, the win rate isn't impressive in the least.
That is pretty much a clue to as to why there isn't a pirate paladin.
Edit: Baittz, you're so wrong about the paladin class, so wrong. Hero power isn't half bad, light years better than priest, the actual worst one now that shamans can actually do something with totems. Not to mention some of the strongest class cards in the game.
Paladin has the worst hero power in the game, Paladin has no good tempo cards like rogue, Paladin has no good face damage dealing cards, Paladin has no recover mechanics except for clears which is counter intuitive to the Pirate playstyle. Paladin is just shit.
This is comming from someone with more than 3000 Paladin wins.
The hero power don't sound a good point here, pirate decks almost don't use hero power, play pirates and weapons in curve, if the cards in hand over and your opponent still standing you lose, but I agree with the lack of face damage, that is really tough, much worse in this case than the lack of draw.
Warrior has N'Zoth's First Mate, Fiery War Axe, and Upgrade! as early game weapons, and Rogue has their Hero Power and Deadly Poison. Early game weapons are essential to making the Pirate decks work and both Warrior and Rogue have a lot.
I think its that the only early game weapons Paladin has is Light's Justice (which is never used) and Argent Lance (also never used). Truesilver Champion is Paladin's only really good weapon card, and by design with its healing its meant for control. In a meta where only the most powerful cards make room in the tight space of a 30 card deck, Paladin's weak early game weapons just don't make the cut for pirate synergy.
It's the same reason Pirate Hunter and Shaman aren't really seen (even though they are tried). Yes, Eaglehorn Bow is a good card, but you'd rather have secret synergy or just powerful beasts, since there are no other good hunter weapons enough to warrant much pirate synergy. Same with shaman. On paper and in a void, Stormforged Axe is a good weapon, but no one uses it because more powerful cards outclass it. And with Spirit Claws you'd rather have Spell Power synergy with Bloodmage Thalnos and Azure Drake.
Fair enough, the hero power argument is not the most important one considering you don't want to hero power, but it is still a thing to consider.
I'd like to add more to the discussion and say that every aggro Paladin deck gets outvalued by any deck (if you don't consider secret Paladin as aggro) and the slow versions of Paladin is just destroyed by nowday's meta.
Rogue has hero power, shaman has spirit claws and warrior has axe/upgrade/mate.
The entire goal of face pirate is to get Small-Time Buccanneer and use it as a "Wow Flame Imp sure is a piece of shit card".
Paladin can't do that too well right now. But just wait until the next expansion when Light Squiarrrr comes out, the sweet 1/1 paladin pirate that gives all pirates +1 attack. "We tried to balance this card for 42 years and kept trying to make him a 5/5, but it just never worked, so we made him a 1/1 and changed the art on the card, which I think was the important part of this" - Entire Blizzard team, not even drunk yet.
Warrior and rogue have their 1-drop pirate class cards but paladin dont. Pulling Patches from the deck is much less consistent when you only have 4 1-drop pirates (2 of small time buccaneers and south sea deckhands) vs. 6 (the 4 above + 2 1-drop class pirates). On top of that, weapon from nzoth first mate and rogues hero power gives +2 attack to the buccaneers, while you have to draw into a weapon for paladin.
Dude, please, the paladin class has a one mana weapon in the core set (Light's Justice), and other that cost two since TGT (Argent Lance), but they are obviously not good enough.
Rogue has hero power, shaman has spirit claws and warrior has axe/upgrade/mate.
The entire goal of face pirate is to get Small-Time Buccanneer and use it as a "Wow Flame Imp sure is a piece of shit card".
Paladin can't do that too well right now. But just wait until the next expansion when Light Squiarrrr comes out, the sweet 1/1 paladin pirate that gives all pirates +1 attack. "We tried to balance this card for 42 years and kept trying to make him a 5/5, but it just never worked, so we made him a 1/1 and changed the art on the card, which I think was the important part of this" - Entire Blizzard team, not even drunk yet.
It does exist, just more of a midrange deck since the weapons aren't nearly strong enough to be a face deck. Unfortunately, as a midrange deck it's minions are too weak to mid-game AoE and doesn't have sticky minions like hunter to sustain vs the control decks
Maybe if they used/abused divine shields it could be viable with buffs like Argus
From what I get from my testing it at Legend rank: 20-25, 44% win rate. Winrate against Pirate Warrior and Aggro Shaman is around zero, so in Aggro-matchup this deck can do nothing. Usually you're dead pretty quickly with your Divine Favors in hand. Against slow decks it's working well, but... Aggro Shaman is better.
Another approach could be building hybrid Pirate/Dragon Paladin deck, I tried it too but failed miserably, Paladin Dragon-synergetic cards are not good enough for aggressive game plan it seems. And even Faerie Dragon is liability, so you have to choose to have it or buffs in your deck.
The problem with Paladin right now is its class card pool. The entire pool is all over the place and while it has a few key cards that are just good, the cards just don't work together. Think about this, you could argue that their card pull is pulling them towards:
1) Control (mostly anyfin) which can work but just isn't quite there, most because their finisher is slow and draw dependent, and a lot of the tools they need to get their are two card combos. N'zoth also almost works, but control decks without burst just get too bullied in this game, plus it has all the same problems as anyfin.
2) Hand buff, both aggro and midrange, is theoretically good but is just too slow to beat aggro and jade respectively. Basically the minions that make this happen would have had to have closer to on curve stats so the deck doesn't fall so far behind. That and their class cards buff the whole hand, rather than giving a meaningful buff to a single card, forcing them to maintain a large hand which hampers their efforts to fight for the board.
3) Midrange: the deck has some good minions with reactive battle crys and greater finisher legendaries, but because it lacks any solid 1 and 2 plays, and only really has Aldor on 3, the deck inevitably ends up being tuned towards control and board clears so it can try to recover by turn 4-5, but because it didn't really do anything before the mid to late game it just isn't enough (this is why losing shielded minibot and muster was so hard).
4) Dragon, this isn't pushed that strongly in class (just two cards really) but ironically is probably one of the best paladin decks you can build right now because the Black Rock Mountain cards have enough internal synergies to carry the class. Really this is an example of the kind of thing most class do in class, and thus better.
5) Theoretically pirate, which you'd think could fill the hole midrange is missing, but just can't because your forced to run one of two reallllly bad weapon to even attempt it, and paladin doesn't have any pirates in class to really push this.
6) Aggro Murloc: this is almost good, as the hand buffing will sometimes give you just enough health to actually keep a board so that war leader and Coldlight Seer can do their job, but the end product is still inconsistent, and isn't really favored against the other aggro decks (assuming they do just a little bit of trading with their weapons)
7) Divine Shied Stuff: this works as either aggro or midrange, more or less, but ends up being about as effective as hand buff, which is to say too slow. (If your interested make sure you try out redemption)
8) Secret Paladin: which is basically an amped up midrange paladin, has midrange's problems ontop of loosing avenge.
Look at that list, that's a lot of stuff the card pool is trying to do, and since their isn't a ton of synergies between the archetypes it makes for a scattered unfocused class card pool that can't quite pull off any of it. A huge pool of largely unplayable secrets really doesn't help either. To put it another way they basically gave paladin a card pool as good as Warlock, and then gave them arguably the worst hero power in the game (with out even giving them any cards that make the hero power better like they did with Shaman).
I mean just compare them to the other class they try to emulate. They have the healing but not the removal of control warrior, with a burst package that is really slow AND draw dependent. They gave them the small minions and (inconsistent) draw of zoo, but not the minion staying power or burst, or internal minion synergies. They gave them a shaman like hero power, without the good board clears, good weapons, synergies with hero power, etc. Basically their where Shaman was before standard, lots of tools really close to being good, but just not there.
EDIT: Oh yeah, and also because the Paladin class in general sucks. Paladin is in a worst situation than Hunter because this is the first time in HS history that hunter sucks, but for Paladin, sucking is the norm, not the exception. Like shaman, paladin only shines when it receives broken cards and is a trash class the rest of the time.
The problem with Paladin right now is its class card pool. The entire pool is all over the place and while it has a few key cards that are just good, the cards just don't work together. Think about this, you could argue that their card pull is pulling them towards:
1) Control (mostly anyfin) which can work but just isn't quite there, most because their finisher is slow and draw dependent, and a lot of the tools they need to get their are two card combos. N'zoth also almost works, but control decks without burst just get too bullied in this game, plus it has all the same problems as anyfin.
2) Hand buff, both aggro and midrange, is theoretically good but is just too slow to beat aggro and jade respectively. Basically the minions that make this happen would have had to have closer to on curve stats so the deck doesn't fall so far behind. That and their class cards buff the whole hand, rather than giving a meaningful buff to a single card, forcing them to maintain a large hand which hampers their efforts to fight for the board.
3) Midrange: the deck has some good minions with reactive battle crys and greater finisher legendaries, but because it lacks any solid 1 and 2 plays, and only really has Aldor on 3, the deck inevitably ends up being tuned towards control and board clears so it can try to recover by turn 4-5, but because it didn't really do anything before the mid to late game it just isn't enough (this is why losing shielded minibot and muster was so hard).
4) Dragon, this isn't pushed that strongly in class (just two cards really) but ironically is probably one of the best paladin decks you can build right now because the Black Rock Mountain cards have enough internal synergies to carry the class. Really this is an example of the kind of thing most class do in class, and thus better.
5) Theoretically pirate, which you'd think could fill the hole midrange is missing, but just can't because your forced to run one of two reallllly bad weapon to even attempt it, and paladin doesn't have any pirates in class to really push this.
6) Aggro Murloc: this is almost good, as the hand buffing will sometimes give you just enough health to actually keep a board so that war leader and Coldlight Seer can do their job, but the end product is still inconsistent, and isn't really favored against the other aggro decks (assuming they do just a little bit of trading with their weapons)
7) Divine Shied Stuff: this works as either aggro or midrange, more or less, but ends up being about as effective as hand buff, which is to say too slow. (If your interested make sure you try out redemption)
8) Secret Paladin: which is basically an amped up midrange paladin, has midrange's problems ontop of loosing avenge.
Look at that list, that's a lot of stuff the card pool is trying to do, and since their isn't a ton of synergies between the archetypes it makes for a scattered unfocused class card pool that can't quite pull off any of it. A huge pool of largely unplayable secrets really doesn't help either. To put it another way they basically gave paladin a card pool as good as Warlock, and then gave them arguably the worst hero power in the game (with out even giving them any cards that make the hero power better like they did with Shaman).
I mean just compare them to the other class they try to emulate. They have the healing but not the removal of control warrior, with a burst package that is really slow AND draw dependent. They gave them the small minions and (inconsistent) draw of zoo, but not the minion staying power or burst, or internal minion synergies. They gave them a shaman like hero power, without the good board clears, good weapons, synergies with hero power, etc. Basically their where Shaman was before standard, lots of tools really close to being good, but just not there.
Very rarely do I encounter a post like this which I agree with in entirety. Well written.
This should be a thread on it's own
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1- Have cheap weapon.
2- Have something lacking in any other pirate deck, draw cards, divine favor and draw 3 minions 1 mana.
3- Have cheap buff for charge minions.
4- Have a 4 attack weapon to play taunt pirate free.
What is missing?
Paladin has the worst hero power in the game, Paladin has no good tempo cards like rogue, Paladin has no good face damage dealing cards, Paladin has no recover mechanics except for clears which is counter intuitive to the Pirate playstyle. Paladin is just shit.
This is comming from someone with more than 3000 Paladin wins.
One more thing, there is a reason to why Paladin decks has always been the decks that use neutral cards the most, that is because most of the class cards for him sucks huge ass. Even cards that were considered good before are now weak compared to new cards (like concecration).
Kolento tryed a paladin pirate list. Being the incredible player he is, the win rate isn't impressive in the least.
That is pretty much a clue to as to why there isn't a pirate paladin.
Edit: Baittz, you're so wrong about the paladin class, so wrong. Hero power isn't half bad, light years better than priest, the actual worst one now that shamans can actually do something with totems. Not to mention some of the strongest class cards in the game.
Warrior has N'Zoth's First Mate, Fiery War Axe, and Upgrade! as early game weapons, and Rogue has their Hero Power and Deadly Poison. Early game weapons are essential to making the Pirate decks work and both Warrior and Rogue have a lot.
I think its that the only early game weapons Paladin has is Light's Justice (which is never used) and Argent Lance (also never used). Truesilver Champion is Paladin's only really good weapon card, and by design with its healing its meant for control. In a meta where only the most powerful cards make room in the tight space of a 30 card deck, Paladin's weak early game weapons just don't make the cut for pirate synergy.
It's the same reason Pirate Hunter and Shaman aren't really seen (even though they are tried). Yes, Eaglehorn Bow is a good card, but you'd rather have secret synergy or just powerful beasts, since there are no other good hunter weapons enough to warrant much pirate synergy. Same with shaman. On paper and in a void, Stormforged Axe is a good weapon, but no one uses it because more powerful cards outclass it. And with Spirit Claws you'd rather have Spell Power synergy with Bloodmage Thalnos and Azure Drake.
Fair enough, the hero power argument is not the most important one considering you don't want to hero power, but it is still a thing to consider.
I'd like to add more to the discussion and say that every aggro Paladin deck gets outvalued by any deck (if you don't consider secret Paladin as aggro) and the slow versions of Paladin is just destroyed by nowday's meta.
No one or two mana weapons.
That's basically it.
Rogue has hero power, shaman has spirit claws and warrior has axe/upgrade/mate.
The entire goal of face pirate is to get Small-Time Buccanneer and use it as a "Wow Flame Imp sure is a piece of shit card".
Paladin can't do that too well right now. But just wait until the next expansion when Light Squiarrrr comes out, the sweet 1/1 paladin pirate that gives all pirates +1 attack.
"We tried to balance this card for 42 years and kept trying to make him a 5/5, but it just never worked, so we made him a 1/1 and changed the art on the card, which I think was the important part of this"
- Entire Blizzard team, not even drunk yet.
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Warrior and rogue have their 1-drop pirate class cards but paladin dont. Pulling Patches from the deck is much less consistent when you only have 4 1-drop pirates (2 of small time buccaneers and south sea deckhands) vs. 6 (the 4 above + 2 1-drop class pirates). On top of that, weapon from nzoth first mate and rogues hero power gives +2 attack to the buccaneers, while you have to draw into a weapon for paladin.
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i think you have to built a mid range pirate deck .
It does exist, just more of a midrange deck since the weapons aren't nearly strong enough to be a face deck. Unfortunately, as a midrange deck it's minions are too weak to mid-game AoE and doesn't have sticky minions like hunter to sustain vs the control decks
Maybe if they used/abused divine shields it could be viable with buffs like Argus
I tried it. It was even discussed on this forum earlier this month:
http://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/class-discussion/paladin/180633-piratadin
From what I get from my testing it at Legend rank: 20-25, 44% win rate. Winrate against Pirate Warrior and Aggro Shaman is around zero, so in Aggro-matchup this deck can do nothing. Usually you're dead pretty quickly with your Divine Favors in hand. Against slow decks it's working well, but... Aggro Shaman is better.
Another approach could be building hybrid Pirate/Dragon Paladin deck, I tried it too but failed miserably, Paladin Dragon-synergetic cards are not good enough for aggressive game plan it seems. And even Faerie Dragon is liability, so you have to choose to have it or buffs in your deck.
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The problem with Paladin right now is its class card pool. The entire pool is all over the place and while it has a few key cards that are just good, the cards just don't work together. Think about this, you could argue that their card pull is pulling them towards:
1) Control (mostly anyfin) which can work but just isn't quite there, most because their finisher is slow and draw dependent, and a lot of the tools they need to get their are two card combos. N'zoth also almost works, but control decks without burst just get too bullied in this game, plus it has all the same problems as anyfin.
2) Hand buff, both aggro and midrange, is theoretically good but is just too slow to beat aggro and jade respectively. Basically the minions that make this happen would have had to have closer to on curve stats so the deck doesn't fall so far behind. That and their class cards buff the whole hand, rather than giving a meaningful buff to a single card, forcing them to maintain a large hand which hampers their efforts to fight for the board.
3) Midrange: the deck has some good minions with reactive battle crys and greater finisher legendaries, but because it lacks any solid 1 and 2 plays, and only really has Aldor on 3, the deck inevitably ends up being tuned towards control and board clears so it can try to recover by turn 4-5, but because it didn't really do anything before the mid to late game it just isn't enough (this is why losing shielded minibot and muster was so hard).
4) Dragon, this isn't pushed that strongly in class (just two cards really) but ironically is probably one of the best paladin decks you can build right now because the Black Rock Mountain cards have enough internal synergies to carry the class. Really this is an example of the kind of thing most class do in class, and thus better.
5) Theoretically pirate, which you'd think could fill the hole midrange is missing, but just can't because your forced to run one of two reallllly bad weapon to even attempt it, and paladin doesn't have any pirates in class to really push this.
6) Aggro Murloc: this is almost good, as the hand buffing will sometimes give you just enough health to actually keep a board so that war leader and Coldlight Seer can do their job, but the end product is still inconsistent, and isn't really favored against the other aggro decks (assuming they do just a little bit of trading with their weapons)
7) Divine Shied Stuff: this works as either aggro or midrange, more or less, but ends up being about as effective as hand buff, which is to say too slow. (If your interested make sure you try out redemption)
8) Secret Paladin: which is basically an amped up midrange paladin, has midrange's problems ontop of loosing avenge.
Look at that list, that's a lot of stuff the card pool is trying to do, and since their isn't a ton of synergies between the archetypes it makes for a scattered unfocused class card pool that can't quite pull off any of it. A huge pool of largely unplayable secrets really doesn't help either. To put it another way they basically gave paladin a card pool as good as Warlock, and then gave them arguably the worst hero power in the game (with out even giving them any cards that make the hero power better like they did with Shaman).
I mean just compare them to the other class they try to emulate. They have the healing but not the removal of control warrior, with a burst package that is really slow AND draw dependent. They gave them the small minions and (inconsistent) draw of zoo, but not the minion staying power or burst, or internal minion synergies. They gave them a shaman like hero power, without the good board clears, good weapons, synergies with hero power, etc. Basically their where Shaman was before standard, lots of tools really close to being good, but just not there.
Argent lance..Rallying Blade...Light's Justic
Complete shit weapons, and pirate decks need good weapons too work (or a weapon hero power)
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Lack of direct damage.
EDIT: Oh yeah, and also because the Paladin class in general sucks. Paladin is in a worst situation than Hunter because this is the first time in HS history that hunter sucks, but for Paladin, sucking is the norm, not the exception. Like shaman, paladin only shines when it receives broken cards and is a trash class the rest of the time.
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Lack of cheap weapons that are worth a card slot without special synergy.
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