Yeah, some of you might remember this thread and I wanted to talk again of it. To summarize, I proposed to ban Genn Greymane and Baku the Mooneater of the game. When I created the thread, it was before the nerf to Level up. Since then, another wave of nerf was announced earlier this week and will be in the game on February 5th. I saw a lot of thread talking about the issue of Genn and Baku. I was really curious what people now thinks after a lot things happened.
Do you think we should ban Genn and Baku at the next standard rotation (in next April)? What do you think we must do in their cases?
I would like to know your opinion on that. Imo, it's impossible to nerf them without killing the design and to HoFed them because the issue in Wild will grow at each expansion in coming years. Some good reason to ban them for me:
- Odd/Even decks are the new Quest Rogue. They are so good that even if we nerf them, they are coming back. Even Paladin was nerfed hard and came back. Odd Paladin was nerfed hard and came back. Odd Rogue will survive to the nerf to Cold Blood I think, even if it's brutal. Even Wild Shaman will almost surely survive to nerf to Flametongue. Then, people think Even/Odd decks will fall at the rotation because of a lot of big losses. Following what happened before, I think that's totally wrong. Odd Pally is playing really bad cards and is one of the better decks... This won't change.
- They limit diversity. Even/Odd decks are that good that they destroy other aggressive/midrange strategies. Only in Wild that's a bit less true, but that's because of the large card pool. Only really strong decks can compete with them (and they are rare) for the tempo. In the actual meta, Hunter is the only one who can do that and he is going to be nerfed.
- They limit card design. Nowadays, Blizzard must be very careful with every card they print, because of Odd/Even decks. Nerfs are probably (because Team 5 denied it) affected by this also.
- They limit interactivity. To press a button is something everyone can do. When your start is always the same, there's no skill involved. Your opponent know what you're going to do. That lead to some really polarizing matchup (especially Odd decks), where the game is almost already done before playing it (because we know the start of each deck). That's really frustrating when you lose only because of who against you queued up.
There's probably other ones, but that sums up the better ones. As I said earlier, I'm really curious what the community now thinks.
I think of Baku and Genn as a boss that is loyal to his job,that got transferred to a company full of broken shit and thugs,where everytime he points a mistake he does it loudly ,yet he himself isn't the problem although he is the loud one,it is the wrong doings of those in the corrupt company that is problematic .
Just because certain Baku and Genn decks are always in your face doesn't mean that they themselves are bad, it is the broken non-balanced cards that are easily exploitable that make them seem so .
Genn and Baku are healthy for the game and if they keep balancing things around them you will end with Hearthstone cards that are actually balanced in their entirety.
They should nerf them to "if your deck has only odd/even cost cards, upgrade/discount HP AND destroy one of your mana crystals."
That's interesting... I didn't thought of that! That would hurt by a lot aggro/tempo decks. Only Odd Warrior could maybe be not that much hurted. It would maybe kill the Odd/Even decks, but the design would still be okay. We know how much mana is important in this game.
- Odd/Even decks are the new Quest Rogue. They are so good that even if we nerf them, they are coming back. Even Paladin was nerfed hard and came back. Odd Paladin was nerfed hard and came back. Odd Rogue will survive to the nerf to Cold Blood I think, even if it's brutal. Even Wild Shaman will almost surely survive to nerf to Flametongue. Then, people think Even/Odd decks will fall at the rotation because of a lot of big losses. Following what happened before, I think that's totally wrong. Odd Pally is playing really bad cards and is one of the better decks... This won't change.
I don't agree with this. Quest Rogue is infamous for being overly polarising, on the other hand even decks are one of the least polarising decks in the meta. Odd decks are more polarising but not to the extent of Quest Rogue. Odd Rogue is as polarising as any other aggro deck. Pre-nerfed Odd Paladin had a decent chance win against everything, its worst matchups were like 40%, it was the best deck in the game but not polarising. The only odd/even deck that is polarising is Odd Warrior. But saying ban Genn/Baku because Odd Warrior is polarising is like saying ban all the quests because Quest Rogue is polarising or ban all the legendary weapons because Kingsbane is polarising.
Also what is wrong with Odd Paladin playing bad (basic set) cards ? people say HS is so expensive (rightly so), all the meta decks require multiple legendaries and epics and you are saying nerf Odd Paladin because it plays cards like Raid Leader and Stormwind Champion.
Just change their effects to battlecries. That weakens them but still makes them justicar level of playable when you want to make cool home brews, and frees up design space exponentially. I think that's the more important key point to take away from this,
Just change their effects to battlecries. That weakens them but still makes them justicar level of playable when you want to make cool home brews, and frees up design space exponentially. I think that's the more important key point to take away from this,
That would make them WAY worse than Justicar. You have to limit cards to odd/even AND wait to draw Genn or Baku?!? Why would anyone play Baku over Justicar?
- Odd/Even decks are the new Quest Rogue. They are so good that even if we nerf them, they are coming back. Even Paladin was nerfed hard and came back. Odd Paladin was nerfed hard and came back. Odd Rogue will survive to the nerf to Cold Blood I think, even if it's brutal. Even Wild Shaman will almost surely survive to nerf to Flametongue. Then, people think Even/Odd decks will fall at the rotation because of a lot of big losses. Following what happened before, I think that's totally wrong. Odd Pally is playing really bad cards and is one of the better decks... This won't change.
I don't agree with this. Quest Rogue is infamous for being overly polarising, on the other hand even decks are one of the least polarising decks in the meta. Odd decks are more polarising but not to the extent of Quest Rogue. Odd Rogue is as polarising as any other aggro deck. Pre-nerfed Odd Paladin had a decent chance win against everything, its worst matchups were like 40%, it was the best deck in the game but not polarising. The only odd/even deck that is polarising is Odd Warrior. But saying ban Genn/Baku because Odd Warrior is polarising is like saying ban all the quests because Quest Rogue is polarising or ban all the legendary weapons because Kingsbane is polarising.
Also what is wrong with Odd Paladin playing bad (basic set) cards ? people say HS is so expensive (rightly so), all the meta decks require multiple legendaries and epics and you are saying nerf Odd Paladin because it plays cards like Raid Leader and Stormwind Champion.
I didn't compare Quest Rogue and Odd/Even decks on their ability to be polarizing. Please read next time.
I compared them on the fact that even with nerfs on key components, they are never going to disappear. They are that good.
And my point about bad cards and Odd Pally is really far from what you're saying. It's only a proof that Odd Pally wil survive to next rotation, because it still good when it runs bad cards (because they r gonna lose a lot of good cards).
Just change their effects to battlecries. That weakens them but still makes them justicar level of playable when you want to make cool home brews, and frees up design space exponentially. I think that's the more important key point to take away from this,
That would make them WAY worse than Justicar. You have to limit cards to odd/even AND wait to draw Genn or Baku?!? Why would anyone play Baku over Justicar?
Totally true. It would kill them so much hard, that it's almost the same as banning them at this point XD.
- Odd/Even decks are the new Quest Rogue. They are so good that even if we nerf them, they are coming back. Even Paladin was nerfed hard and came back. Odd Paladin was nerfed hard and came back. Odd Rogue will survive to the nerf to Cold Blood I think, even if it's brutal. Even Wild Shaman will almost surely survive to nerf to Flametongue. Then, people think Even/Odd decks will fall at the rotation because of a lot of big losses. Following what happened before, I think that's totally wrong. Odd Pally is playing really bad cards and is one of the better decks... This won't change.
I don't agree with this. Quest Rogue is infamous for being overly polarising, on the other hand even decks are one of the least polarising decks in the meta. Odd decks are more polarising but not to the extent of Quest Rogue. Odd Rogue is as polarising as any other aggro deck. Pre-nerfed Odd Paladin had a decent chance win against everything, its worst matchups were like 40%, it was the best deck in the game but not polarising. The only odd/even deck that is polarising is Odd Warrior. But saying ban Genn/Baku because Odd Warrior is polarising is like saying ban all the quests because Quest Rogue is polarising or ban all the legendary weapons because Kingsbane is polarising.
Also what is wrong with Odd Paladin playing bad (basic set) cards ? people say HS is so expensive (rightly so), all the meta decks require multiple legendaries and epics and you are saying nerf Odd Paladin because it plays cards like Raid Leader and Stormwind Champion.
I didn't compare Quest Rogue and Odd/Even decks on their ability to be polarizing. Please read next time.
I compared them on the fact that even with nerfs on key components, they are never going to disappear. They are that good.
And my point about bad cards and Odd Pally is really far from what you're saying. It's only a proof that Odd Pally wil survive to next rotation, because it still good when it runs bad cards (because they r gonna lose a lot of good cards).
Just change their effects to battlecries. That weakens them but still makes them justicar level of playable when you want to make cool home brews, and frees up design space exponentially. I think that's the more important key point to take away from this,
That would make them WAY worse than Justicar. You have to limit cards to odd/even AND wait to draw Genn or Baku?!? Why would anyone play Baku over Justicar?
Totally true. It would kill them so much hard, that it's almost the same as banning them at this point XD.
Ok sorry, I misunderstood your point completely. Still I don't think anything is wrong with having strong odd/even decks provided they are not totally broken (which they aren't).
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/227955-hs-future
Yeah, some of you might remember this thread and I wanted to talk again of it. To summarize, I proposed to ban Genn Greymane and Baku the Mooneater of the game. When I created the thread, it was before the nerf to Level up. Since then, another wave of nerf was announced earlier this week and will be in the game on February 5th. I saw a lot of thread talking about the issue of Genn and Baku. I was really curious what people now thinks after a lot things happened.
Do you think we should ban Genn and Baku at the next standard rotation (in next April)? What do you think we must do in their cases?
I would like to know your opinion on that. Imo, it's impossible to nerf them without killing the design and to HoFed them because the issue in Wild will grow at each expansion in coming years. Some good reason to ban them for me:
- Odd/Even decks are the new Quest Rogue. They are so good that even if we nerf them, they are coming back. Even Paladin was nerfed hard and came back. Odd Paladin was nerfed hard and came back. Odd Rogue will survive to the nerf to Cold Blood I think, even if it's brutal. Even Wild Shaman will almost surely survive to nerf to Flametongue. Then, people think Even/Odd decks will fall at the rotation because of a lot of big losses. Following what happened before, I think that's totally wrong. Odd Pally is playing really bad cards and is one of the better decks... This won't change.
- They limit diversity. Even/Odd decks are that good that they destroy other aggressive/midrange strategies. Only in Wild that's a bit less true, but that's because of the large card pool. Only really strong decks can compete with them (and they are rare) for the tempo. In the actual meta, Hunter is the only one who can do that and he is going to be nerfed.
- They limit card design. Nowadays, Blizzard must be very careful with every card they print, because of Odd/Even decks. Nerfs are probably (because Team 5 denied it) affected by this also.
- They limit interactivity. To press a button is something everyone can do. When your start is always the same, there's no skill involved. Your opponent know what you're going to do. That lead to some really polarizing matchup (especially Odd decks), where the game is almost already done before playing it (because we know the start of each deck). That's really frustrating when you lose only because of who against you queued up.
There's probably other ones, but that sums up the better ones. As I said earlier, I'm really curious what the community now thinks.
They should nerf them to "if your deck has only odd/even cost cards, upgrade/discount HP AND destroy one of your mana crystals."
I voted No.
I think of Baku and Genn as a boss that is loyal to his job,that got transferred to a company full of broken shit and thugs,where everytime he points a mistake he does it loudly ,yet he himself isn't the problem although he is the loud one,it is the wrong doings of those in the corrupt company that is problematic .
Just because certain Baku and Genn decks are always in your face doesn't mean that they themselves are bad, it is the broken non-balanced cards that are easily exploitable that make them seem so .
Genn and Baku are healthy for the game and if they keep balancing things around them you will end with Hearthstone cards that are actually balanced in their entirety.
That's interesting... I didn't thought of that! That would hurt by a lot aggro/tempo decks. Only Odd Warrior could maybe be not that much hurted. It would maybe kill the Odd/Even decks, but the design would still be okay. We know how much mana is important in this game.
Well thought!
Nerf Bloodreaver Gul'dan and Frostlich Jaina instead
I don't agree with this. Quest Rogue is infamous for being overly polarising, on the other hand even decks are one of the least polarising decks in the meta. Odd decks are more polarising but not to the extent of Quest Rogue. Odd Rogue is as polarising as any other aggro deck. Pre-nerfed Odd Paladin had a decent chance win against everything, its worst matchups were like 40%, it was the best deck in the game but not polarising. The only odd/even deck that is polarising is Odd Warrior. But saying ban Genn/Baku because Odd Warrior is polarising is like saying ban all the quests because Quest Rogue is polarising or ban all the legendary weapons because Kingsbane is polarising.
Also what is wrong with Odd Paladin playing bad (basic set) cards ? people say HS is so expensive (rightly so), all the meta decks require multiple legendaries and epics and you are saying nerf Odd Paladin because it plays cards like Raid Leader and Stormwind Champion.
Those cards limit the future of next expansions and possible nerfs.
Just change their effects to battlecries. That weakens them but still makes them justicar level of playable when you want to make cool home brews, and frees up design space exponentially. I think that's the more important key point to take away from this,
^this. Makes more sense like this. Having it from the start is too much. Having to draw it and play it is much fairer.
I think it would make more sense to nerf Silverback Patriarch.
That would make them WAY worse than Justicar. You have to limit cards to odd/even AND wait to draw Genn or Baku?!? Why would anyone play Baku over Justicar?
I didn't compare Quest Rogue and Odd/Even decks on their ability to be polarizing. Please read next time.
I compared them on the fact that even with nerfs on key components, they are never going to disappear. They are that good.
And my point about bad cards and Odd Pally is really far from what you're saying. It's only a proof that Odd Pally wil survive to next rotation, because it still good when it runs bad cards (because they r gonna lose a lot of good cards).
So yeah, read next time please.
Totally true. It would kill them so much hard, that it's almost the same as banning them at this point XD.
Ok sorry, I misunderstood your point completely. Still I don't think anything is wrong with having strong odd/even decks provided they are not totally broken (which they aren't).
What about nerfing all these crazy OTK decks?
So much BS in the OP it's not even worth the time to argue.