It's gonna be cheap hyper-aggro decks for me from here on out. I cant afford to keep up with this game and feels bad to sink money into a game the developers rarely care about. It was a good last 5 years.
Well ... I cannot stand what cards like Granite Forgeborn and Incanters Flow stand for (continual mana reduction with no downside) ... I kinda wished those would have been nerfed out of existence. These nerfs didn't go far enough.
Flesh Giant ... meh, couldn't care less really.
Il'g ... sure whatever, never have a problem facing that deck anyway ... to be sure, a stupid deck (not a fan of combo decks really) so I won't miss it one bit.
Kolkar ... really, is this card the issue? And if so ... then make it a 3 mana 3/3, not 3/4.
Conviction ... meh ... again, not one I really care about enough ... because when facing Paladin you always clean up their board ... always ... I've known this since day 1.
Battleground Battlemaster ... this card is insane (till tomorrow) and I've slotted it into every single deck I craft since it came out ... bummed to see it nerfed, but I can understand why. I've had mages get this from Apex Blast to kill me with minion damage etc. ... yes, it is used as a finisher but should be a 3/3 or 4/4
Dark Glare ... back to where it was really, but with 1 mana return not 2. Should have done this back at the time of the first nerf. Not a bad result from the Shaman 3 mana deal 3 spell now ... because I usually have a weapon equipped so can get some mana back for some extra burst with a lightning bolt etc. :)
I still think that mage got off very easy ... they still have infinite damage and still have too much draw and random creation ... we'll just see mages slotting in more freeze stuff, yawn. I can't stand the mage class, the old quest, Jaina, etc. ice block ... nah, toxic class for those trying to enjoy the game.
I don't know why so many people ain't having a real problem with mages, mages and warlock are the only decks that force you to be an even faster deck, you can't go slower against them they force you to go faster thus limiting deck variety. Idk bout DH, I think you can perfectly go slow against them, I've 100% WR against them with Big Warrior. The sweet spot is when you can go both ways (slower and faster) and have a good chance. Really I don't know why you don't see that the only real problem is when you can only play one archetype to have any, and I mean any chance against mages and warlock in the game.
As a hunter main, but preferring more controllish and midrange strategies I think the kolkar nerf is deeply disappointing. They wanted to nerf face hunter, that's totally understandable. Aimed shot, piercing shot, rhino all would have been perfect targets for such a nerf. Kolkar on the other hand was the only tool that made possible the hunters to fight aggressive early game strategies and snowballing abilities of shamans, paldins etc. That's over, it seems that they want hunter only to be able to play mindless aggro with no board presence but as much from hand burst damage as possible...
My takes (I mostly ignore stat changes on minions): - Incanter's Flow for Mage to 3 mana - big thumbs up. Round 3 to do nothing and then another for another nothing. It's a huge deal.
agree - Darkglare in Warlock to 3 Mana - again, good change
agree + this will nerf Stealer of Souls you will not be able to get mana when you take dmg from this card so means it will slow down the card aswell - Flesh Giant to 9 Mana - not sure if this will matter that much but it does mean that you won't be able to drop them as consistently as before so should slow down games without killing the card
i thing a nerf on 10 will be better for the card but i agree it will be less consistent on 9 mana and some game it will be 1 turn slower and thats a big chage... but at 10 mana will allso be 1 turn slower but more consistent - Battleground Battlemaster to 6 Mana - the best change but it's still strong at 6
its less strong now since it was mostly good with conviction so now both card got hit means its now cost 10 mana to do the same you could do befor with 7 mana - Conviction (Rank 1) to 2 Mana for Paladin - fantastic change, it was a long time coming. For what this card does it was undervalued
same thing as said about battleground battlemaster - Kolkar Pack Runner to 3 mana for Hunter but stickier at 4 health- another great change, will this slow Hunters down? YES!
not sure about this chage it will slow down the card but its alot stronger with 4 hp - Granite Forgeborn health down to 4 from 5 - totally irrelevant change, to show that they're doing something about Elem Shaman without actually doing it. This deck will pop even more due to other nerfs
this chage will ofc do something but its so small that it really not matter at all... that 1 time where you have 4 dmg and not 5 this will matter - Il'gynoth from 4 to 6 mana to hit DH - the true solitaire deck of this expansion, hopefully dead an buried. With all the quest discounts I am not so sure but thinking it through it would rely on drawing Il'gynoth early for the discounts to apply to it and all combo pieces to come together in any reasonable time. I hope this will become a meme fringe deck at best. I will dust it and craft something I like.
this deck can probly still work but you need 10 mana to do the combo...
In my opinion, really good nerfs. Most nerfs are just mild enough, to weaken the deck a bit. It opens up other possibilities and doesn't destroy it.
Elemental Shaman might be the new deck to beat, but I am sure, that there will be another good control deck emerging now, to counter Elemental Shaman. Mutanus has more chance now, since the quest decks are slower. The meta will change quite a bit in general, since OTK DH and Aggro Hunter got both hit hard. We will see, what deck takes now the space.
Also I think aggro priest might still be very strong. Might be the best aggro deck now.
allso i dont thing this nerf will bring back control so the nerf was to weak in my book... but i dont thing any nerf will be able to bring control back unless there kill lots of card...
These were spot on nerfs. I think some were made preemptively because of nerfs to their counter deck.
Incanters flow, Ilgynoth, battlegrounds battlemaster, darkglare and conviction were all necessary. Kolkar, flesh giant and granite forge born were reactive. Kolkar will hit face hunter much harder than people think. Hunter can’t play him turn 2 and coin then either tracking or wound prey for 2-3 1/1s with rush. This will make it harder to control the board, which face hunter has been able to do exceptionally well with Kolkar. It will also cut down on the ease to pop divine shields which are the rhino’s bane. This is a good nerf to hunter, although trampling rhino or either of the beast tutors that upgrade it are more problematic. They didn’t nerf face hunter into the ground despite it being far and away the best deck currently.
I think the nerfs look best for quest rogue. It wasn’t trying to slam down conviction and battlegrounds battlemaster as fast as pally was. You would typically play scabbs and then stealth him and have another minion with stealth waiting before playing battlemaster, so that’s typically on turn 7 when we see him. This will still allow for a taunt removal or weapon to be played then a 9/7 windfury on turn 7. That’s my prediction from these nerfs, quest rogue will benefit the most.
Once again, they've mostly nerfed Tier 2 decks because they care more about community perception than actual facts. At least they did hit Paladin where it hurts -- though to be fair, Battlemaster was problematic in a number of classes.
As for their claim that this will slow the meta enough for slower strategies to succeed, color me skeptical.
Depends on what you consider a "slower strategy". For quest priest to be any good, you would have to nerf around 15 cards functionally, which they would never dare to do. It was predictable that this is going to be rather soft except for maybe for paladin. Leaving Stealer of Souls unnerfed is nothing but a terrible joke at this point tbh.
Well, I didn't say "the slowest strategy." People sure do love to jump to extremes around here.
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
As a hunter main, but preferring more controllish and midrange strategies I think the kolkar nerf is deeply disappointing. They wanted to nerf face hunter, that's totally understandable. Aimed shot, piercing shot, rhino all would have been perfect targets for such a nerf. Kolkar on the other hand was the only tool that made possible the hunters to fight aggressive early game strategies and snowballing abilities of shamans, paldins etc. That's over, it seems that they want hunter only to be able to play mindless aggro with no board presence but as much from hand burst damage as possible...
I mean, that’s pretty much all hunter has ever been since day one, with the exception of the stupid ass emerald spellstone/deathstalker era.
I begrudgingly agree with the Incanter's Flow nerf. Begrudgingly, because that was the deck I made Legend with this month; I like the combo mage. But that's the right card to hit.
I also think the Shaman nerf was fine. And that's about it as far as nice things to say.
I think the Paladin nerfs focused on the correct cards — Battlemaster and Conviction — but I really don't like how they increased mana on BOTH. The reason Paladin held its own against combo is that as early as turn 6 it could do a ton of burst from just 2 minions previously on board. Post, nerf, that's as early as turn 8 — two full turns later, Considering most combo decks were only pushed back one turn if that, that's a HUGE reduction in Paladin threat vs Mage and Demon Hunter combo. Too much. I would have preferred a nerf to Conviction that didn't increase the mana cost (maybe +2 Attack instead of +3), and although I think Battlemaster should cost 6 I think it should be a 6/6 as well.
With Demon Hunter, I think setting Il'gynoth back two full turns is also too much — like with Paladin, this heavily impacts matchups against other combo decks. I'd have made Il'gynoth a 5-Cost 3/7 AND increased the Cost of Felosophy to 2.
Hunter I don't feel was nerfed enough, nor correctly. It's not like aggro decks have a huge aversion to 3 Cost 3/4s as opposed to 2 Cost 2/3s, and while the target of the nerf is Face Hunter, we also have Quest Hunter that we'd prefer not to hit with splash damage from any changes. Instead, I would have reduced Warsong Wrangler's buff to +1/+1 wherever they are, which is a pure nerf to Face Hunter and doesn't hit Quest Hunter.
Last but not least, Warlock. Man, did they ever bungle this one. Nerfing Flesh Giant was good actually, but Darkglare? Darkglare was ALREADY nerfed. If you go and look up card statistics on HSReplay right now — well, I have Premium with them, so maybe not YOU, but when I do — it's not even one of the best Warlock cards. Without giving away the exact percentage: more top 1000 Legend Warlocks, in the past 3 days, who kept 2 Cost Darkglare in their opening hand LOST their games than won. When I see 2 Cost Darkglare played against me, I basically conclude my opponent has a subpar deck list, which either makes me happy or extra salty lol. But it's STUPID to nerf. What should be nerfed for Warlock is: Flesh Giant (to 9 Cost), Soul Rend (to 4 Damage) and Backfire (to 4 Cost).
I think it doesn't help with my biggest issue with the game: Lack of viable Control decks. But that doesn't seem to be a problem they want to fix anyway.
I think it doesn't help with my biggest issue with the game: Lack of viable Control decks. But that doesn't seem to be a problem they want to fix anyway.
Kinda depends on what you mean. If you mean control in the classic grindy sense, yeah those don't work in this meta. But if you just means removals and board clears, this format has those — but with combo finishers. Or combo-ish, e.g. get two big threats out, aggro can't remove, then play Battlegrounds Battlemaster and win on the spot.
I don't think we necessarily need a meta where games go past turn 10, except when both players whiff on their combos. But some cool win conditions are basically unplayable before turn 10, like Cthun or Priest Quest. And the non-viability of those saddens me.
I begrudgingly agree with the Incanter's Flow nerf. Begrudgingly, because that was the deck I made Legend with this month; I like the combo mage. But that's the right card to hit.
I also think the Shaman nerf was fine. And that's about it as far as nice things to say.
I think the Paladin nerfs focused on the correct cards — Battlemaster and Conviction — but I really don't like how they increased mana on BOTH. The reason Paladin held its own against combo is that as early as turn 6 it could do a ton of burst from just 2 minions previously on board. Post, nerf, that's as early as turn 8 — two full turns later, Considering most combo decks were only pushed back one turn if that, that's a HUGE reduction in Paladin threat vs Mage and Demon Hunter combo. Too much. I would have preferred a nerf to Conviction that didn't increase the mana cost (maybe +2 Attack instead of +3), and although I think Battlemaster should cost 6 I think it should be a 6/6 as well.
With Demon Hunter, I think setting Il'gynoth back two full turns is also too much — like with Paladin, this heavily impacts matchups against other combo decks. I'd have made Il'gynoth a 5-Cost 3/7 AND increased the Cost of Felosophy to 2.
Hunter I don't feel was nerfed enough, nor correctly. It's not like aggro decks have a huge aversion to 3 Cost 3/4s as opposed to 2 Cost 2/3s, and while the target of the nerf is Face Hunter, we also have Quest Hunter that we'd prefer not to hit with splash damage from any changes. Instead, I would have reduced Warsong Wrangler's buff to +1/+1 wherever they are, which is a pure nerf to Face Hunter and doesn't hit Quest Hunter.
Last but not least, Warlock. Man, did they ever bungle this one. Nerfing Flesh Giant was good actually, but Darkglare? Darkglare was ALREADY nerfed. If you go and look up card statistics on HSReplay right now — well, I have Premium with them, so maybe not YOU, but when I do — it's not even one of the best Warlock cards. Without giving away the exact percentage: more top 1000 Legend Warlocks, in the past 3 days, who kept 2 Cost Darkglare in their opening hand LOST their games than won. When I see 2 Cost Darkglare played against me, I basically conclude my opponent has a subpar deck list, which either makes me happy or extra salty lol. But it's STUPID to nerf. What should be nerfed for Warlock is: Flesh Giant (to 9 Cost), Soul Rend (to 4 Damage) and Backfire (to 4 Cost).
So overall, pretty disappointing set of nerfs.
Darkglare nerf was necessary. In wild, it’s the most powerful card in a format full of powerful cards. And that was so even before the expansion. Nerf was necessary, since people started playing it all over wild ladder. Card was highly problematic, just not enough synergy in standard. Darkglare warlock without quest might have been the best deck in the game that wasn’t obviously op because the skill cap is very high.
I feel indifferent. I guess it won't impact the meta much. The nerfs didn't weaken the decks by much. The nerfs made other decks a bit stronger, but lets see. Maybe (hopefully) OTK Shaman can finally keep up with the slightly slowed down Warlock and Demon Hunter OTK decks.
It's gonna be cheap hyper-aggro decks for me from here on out. I cant afford to keep up with this game and feels bad to sink money into a game the developers rarely care about. It was a good last 5 years.
Well ... I cannot stand what cards like Granite Forgeborn and Incanters Flow stand for (continual mana reduction with no downside) ... I kinda wished those would have been nerfed out of existence. These nerfs didn't go far enough.
Flesh Giant ... meh, couldn't care less really.
Il'g ... sure whatever, never have a problem facing that deck anyway ... to be sure, a stupid deck (not a fan of combo decks really) so I won't miss it one bit.
Kolkar ... really, is this card the issue? And if so ... then make it a 3 mana 3/3, not 3/4.
Conviction ... meh ... again, not one I really care about enough ... because when facing Paladin you always clean up their board ... always ... I've known this since day 1.
Battleground Battlemaster ... this card is insane (till tomorrow) and I've slotted it into every single deck I craft since it came out ... bummed to see it nerfed, but I can understand why. I've had mages get this from Apex Blast to kill me with minion damage etc. ... yes, it is used as a finisher but should be a 3/3 or 4/4
Dark Glare ... back to where it was really, but with 1 mana return not 2. Should have done this back at the time of the first nerf. Not a bad result from the Shaman 3 mana deal 3 spell now ... because I usually have a weapon equipped so can get some mana back for some extra burst with a lightning bolt etc. :)
I still think that mage got off very easy ... they still have infinite damage and still have too much draw and random creation ... we'll just see mages slotting in more freeze stuff, yawn. I can't stand the mage class, the old quest, Jaina, etc. ice block ... nah, toxic class for those trying to enjoy the game.
I don't know why so many people ain't having a real problem with mages, mages and warlock are the only decks that force you to be an even faster deck, you can't go slower against them they force you to go faster thus limiting deck variety. Idk bout DH, I think you can perfectly go slow against them, I've 100% WR against them with Big Warrior. The sweet spot is when you can go both ways (slower and faster) and have a good chance.
Really I don't know why you don't see that the only real problem is when you can only play one archetype to have any, and I mean any chance against mages and warlock in the game.
As a hunter main, but preferring more controllish and midrange strategies I think the kolkar nerf is deeply disappointing. They wanted to nerf face hunter, that's totally understandable. Aimed shot, piercing shot, rhino all would have been perfect targets for such a nerf. Kolkar on the other hand was the only tool that made possible the hunters to fight aggressive early game strategies and snowballing abilities of shamans, paldins etc. That's over, it seems that they want hunter only to be able to play mindless aggro with no board presence but as much from hand burst damage as possible...
My takes (I mostly ignore stat changes on minions):
- Incanter's Flow for Mage to 3 mana - big thumbs up. Round 3 to do nothing and then another for another nothing. It's a huge deal.
agree
- Darkglare in Warlock to 3 Mana - again, good change
agree + this will nerf Stealer of Souls you will not be able to get mana when you take dmg from this card so means it will slow down the card aswell
- Flesh Giant to 9 Mana - not sure if this will matter that much but it does mean that you won't be able to drop them as consistently as before so should slow down games without killing the card
i thing a nerf on 10 will be better for the card but i agree it will be less consistent on 9 mana and some game it will be 1 turn slower and thats a big chage... but at 10 mana will allso be 1 turn slower but more consistent
- Battleground Battlemaster to 6 Mana - the best change but it's still strong at 6
its less strong now since it was mostly good with conviction so now both card got hit means its now cost 10 mana to do the same you could do befor with 7 mana
- Conviction (Rank 1) to 2 Mana for Paladin - fantastic change, it was a long time coming. For what this card does it was undervalued
same thing as said about battleground battlemaster
- Kolkar Pack Runner to 3 mana for Hunter but stickier at 4 health- another great change, will this slow Hunters down? YES!
not sure about this chage it will slow down the card but its alot stronger with 4 hp
- Granite Forgeborn health down to 4 from 5 - totally irrelevant change, to show that they're doing something about Elem Shaman without actually doing it. This deck will pop even more due to other nerfs
this chage will ofc do something but its so small that it really not matter at all... that 1 time where you have 4 dmg and not 5 this will matter
- Il'gynoth from 4 to 6 mana to hit DH - the true solitaire deck of this expansion, hopefully dead an buried. With all the quest discounts I am not so sure but thinking it through it would rely on drawing Il'gynoth early for the discounts to apply to it and all combo pieces to come together in any reasonable time. I hope this will become a meme fringe deck at best. I will dust it and craft something I like.
this deck can probly still work but you need 10 mana to do the combo...
In my opinion, really good nerfs. Most nerfs are just mild enough, to weaken the deck a bit. It opens up other possibilities and doesn't destroy it.
Elemental Shaman might be the new deck to beat, but I am sure, that there will be another good control deck emerging now, to counter Elemental Shaman. Mutanus has more chance now, since the quest decks are slower. The meta will change quite a bit in general, since OTK DH and Aggro Hunter got both hit hard. We will see, what deck takes now the space.
Also I think aggro priest might still be very strong. Might be the best aggro deck now.
allso i dont thing this nerf will bring back control so the nerf was to weak in my book... but i dont thing any nerf will be able to bring control back unless there kill lots of card...
These were spot on nerfs. I think some were made preemptively because of nerfs to their counter deck.
Incanters flow, Ilgynoth, battlegrounds battlemaster, darkglare and conviction were all necessary. Kolkar, flesh giant and granite forge born were reactive. Kolkar will hit face hunter much harder than people think. Hunter can’t play him turn 2 and coin then either tracking or wound prey for 2-3 1/1s with rush. This will make it harder to control the board, which face hunter has been able to do exceptionally well with Kolkar. It will also cut down on the ease to pop divine shields which are the rhino’s bane. This is a good nerf to hunter, although trampling rhino or either of the beast tutors that upgrade it are more problematic. They didn’t nerf face hunter into the ground despite it being far and away the best deck currently.
I think the nerfs look best for quest rogue. It wasn’t trying to slam down conviction and battlegrounds battlemaster as fast as pally was. You would typically play scabbs and then stealth him and have another minion with stealth waiting before playing battlemaster, so that’s typically on turn 7 when we see him. This will still allow for a taunt removal or weapon to be played then a 9/7 windfury on turn 7. That’s my prediction from these nerfs, quest rogue will benefit the most.
Warlock will shine this expansion, classic one version remains unchanged: https://sharehs.com/warlock/24961/ https://sharehs.com/warlock/24949/ https://sharehs.com/warlock/24917/
Darkglare wasn't played in minion lock, and decks who heavily punished this lock (mainly paladin and spell mage) were fixed.
Enjoy Anetheron, Barrens Scavenger, Goldshire Gnoll and Flesh Giant each game
Well, I didn't say "the slowest strategy." People sure do love to jump to extremes around here.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
I mean, that’s pretty much all hunter has ever been since day one, with the exception of the stupid ass emerald spellstone/deathstalker era.
- Paladin got major hit, I think its inferior now compared to other mid/aggro like Hunter and Shaman.
- Flow at 3 is a hit but maybe not sufficient, the entire archetype is too much high-roll (early flow) and no alternative viable options for mage
- Shaman is the winner, Granite nerf should have been to 5 mana. this card encourages high-roll (early draw) style deck which is very bad design.
8 nerfs after release says all about the team ability to design and balance cards in the first place.
Maybe it is time to get more qualified people for a job they get paid for
I begrudgingly agree with the Incanter's Flow nerf. Begrudgingly, because that was the deck I made Legend with this month; I like the combo mage. But that's the right card to hit.
I also think the Shaman nerf was fine. And that's about it as far as nice things to say.
I think the Paladin nerfs focused on the correct cards — Battlemaster and Conviction — but I really don't like how they increased mana on BOTH. The reason Paladin held its own against combo is that as early as turn 6 it could do a ton of burst from just 2 minions previously on board. Post, nerf, that's as early as turn 8 — two full turns later, Considering most combo decks were only pushed back one turn if that, that's a HUGE reduction in Paladin threat vs Mage and Demon Hunter combo. Too much. I would have preferred a nerf to Conviction that didn't increase the mana cost (maybe +2 Attack instead of +3), and although I think Battlemaster should cost 6 I think it should be a 6/6 as well.
With Demon Hunter, I think setting Il'gynoth back two full turns is also too much — like with Paladin, this heavily impacts matchups against other combo decks. I'd have made Il'gynoth a 5-Cost 3/7 AND increased the Cost of Felosophy to 2.
Hunter I don't feel was nerfed enough, nor correctly. It's not like aggro decks have a huge aversion to 3 Cost 3/4s as opposed to 2 Cost 2/3s, and while the target of the nerf is Face Hunter, we also have Quest Hunter that we'd prefer not to hit with splash damage from any changes. Instead, I would have reduced Warsong Wrangler's buff to +1/+1 wherever they are, which is a pure nerf to Face Hunter and doesn't hit Quest Hunter.
Last but not least, Warlock. Man, did they ever bungle this one. Nerfing Flesh Giant was good actually, but Darkglare? Darkglare was ALREADY nerfed. If you go and look up card statistics on HSReplay right now — well, I have Premium with them, so maybe not YOU, but when I do — it's not even one of the best Warlock cards. Without giving away the exact percentage: more top 1000 Legend Warlocks, in the past 3 days, who kept 2 Cost Darkglare in their opening hand LOST their games than won. When I see 2 Cost Darkglare played against me, I basically conclude my opponent has a subpar deck list, which either makes me happy or extra salty lol. But it's STUPID to nerf. What should be nerfed for Warlock is: Flesh Giant (to 9 Cost), Soul Rend (to 4 Damage) and Backfire (to 4 Cost).
So overall, pretty disappointing set of nerfs.
garbage nerfs. Control still not viable. brain dead meta continues.
I think it doesn't help with my biggest issue with the game: Lack of viable Control decks. But that doesn't seem to be a problem they want to fix anyway.
Kinda depends on what you mean. If you mean control in the classic grindy sense, yeah those don't work in this meta. But if you just means removals and board clears, this format has those — but with combo finishers. Or combo-ish, e.g. get two big threats out, aggro can't remove, then play Battlegrounds Battlemaster and win on the spot.
I don't think we necessarily need a meta where games go past turn 10, except when both players whiff on their combos. But some cool win conditions are basically unplayable before turn 10, like Cthun or Priest Quest. And the non-viability of those saddens me.
Darkglare nerf was necessary. In wild, it’s the most powerful card in a format full of powerful cards. And that was so even before the expansion. Nerf was necessary, since people started playing it all over wild ladder. Card was highly problematic, just not enough synergy in standard. Darkglare warlock without quest might have been the best deck in the game that wasn’t obviously op because the skill cap is very high.
I feel indifferent. I guess it won't impact the meta much. The nerfs didn't weaken the decks by much. The nerfs made other decks a bit stronger, but lets see. Maybe (hopefully) OTK Shaman can finally keep up with the slightly slowed down Warlock and Demon Hunter OTK decks.
It will never be viable unless they change the developers team. They clearly said they do not want that kind of control.
Let's see how many players and profit they lose until some executive hire new staff.