Outcast is a pretty unique mechanic. If you've played tempo; midrange; or combo demon hunter, you frequently have to decide whether to play outcast cards the turn they're drawn and you will also play cards just to get to your outcast cards. Early on, a lot of demon hunter cards interacted with hero attacking and I hope they continue to make them. It would be really cool if cards had a condition that requires attacking minions to make demon hunter more control oriented.
Demon Hunter at its conception borrowed a lot of what Hunter and Rogue had while not also borrowing their weaknesses, incredible aggression and tempo, alongside a lot of lifegain, mana cheating, and card draw - things that kept the original two classes from being too strong because they lacked them.
When did rogue lack card draw and mana cheating exactly ?
rogue doesn't have board clears either, nor will it have "hero power synergy" since you want to buff real weapons, not your hero power, nor will it have deathrattle synergy once rotation happens. Rogue identity will literally just be draw cards, hit face, and swing the board by mana cheating.
Rogue may not have been lacking in card draw, but it WAS lacking in card draw that was so efficient that it could be played in tempo and aggro decks without sacrificing anything (at least, in the before times this was the case). Also, Rogue wasn't meant to gain a lot of life, which is why they've never gotten healing outside of weapon specific Lifesteal cards like Spectral Cutlass or Leeching Poison - which was too strong and gave Rogue too much healing, so they had to nerf it.
An as Pizzacats says, Rogue also was limited in Board Clears. Fan of Knives is far too lacking in power to be called a "board clear" since it doesn't have synergies like health reduction, it's basically a "large scale ping cantrip". Vanish WAS a board clear, and a dang good one at that, which is why they Hall of Famed it. And Blade Flurry is far too narrow to hinge Rogue's class identity on. In any Rogue deck, it's a cheaper Fan of Knives with no card draw. In specifically Kingsbane Rogue, it IS a really effective board clear, though it still has a "cost" and prerequisite, so I don't count it as highly as I do Vanish.
Demon Hunter has board clears. And incredible single target removal. And efficient card draw. And aggressive-or-late game tribal synergies. Et cetera et cetera.
What even IS Demon Hunter's identity this expansion. Almost nothing they printed helps the already pre-conceived idea that Demon Hunter is the Aggro/OTK archetype. Deathrattle Demon Hunter? Blizzard is trying to force something again and it won't work.
They cant, those archetypes are losing very little with rotation and more support now would cause balancing issues. Thats why they often pull strategies out of their ass for some classes, the "pre-conceived" ones would be too busted if those were all they could support.
i mean it has some sort of sense, like in the token synergies, dh takes power from death, and istead of resummoning a million times the same minion like priest, triggering multiple times the same deathrattle or cheating it like rogue and hunter, it just chains it and cycle them into "stronger" minions
If they were going to give Demon Hunters a Deathrattle theme, it should have revolved around 1.) Demon tribe minions with Deathrattle effects, and 2.) Demon Hunters that get benefits when Demon tribe minions die. Play around with the idea that you're, y'know, playing a class that's dedicated to killing demons.
Like, Aranasi (demon spiders from WoW) that swarm cheap demons on both sides of the board that you can then mop up with other cards that could have things like "whenever a demon dies deal 1 damage to the enemy hero" or "gain +1/+1 for each demon that died this turn." Or maybe things that spawn curse/kiss demons onto your opponent's side of the board, like 3/2 burning imp "deal 2 damage to your hero at the start of your turn."
Giving them random half-assed deathrattle synergy cards that rely entirely on neutral deathrattles is super lame.
Going further into the class as it appears in WoW, it has two specializations: Havoc, an agile, aggressive damage dealer that uses blades and fel magic, and Vengeance, a slow, brutish tank that damages attackers with spikes/horns and heals itself through leech (lifesteal) and spawning soul fragments.
Havoc has two main variations, Momentum revolves around acrobatic physical attacks and Demonic revolves around triggering Metamorphosis and doing AoE attacks that have Leech (Lifesteal).
Generally I think they do a good job capturing the Havoc playstyles. High risk, high reward, as DH is squishy but can heal by dealing damage, meaning you're rewarded for attacking large groups of enemies and burning them down with AoE lifesteal effects to get back your health, and also spawning soul fragments when they die to heal yourself.
Vengeance on the other hand is not really represented at all. It would be a tanky control deck, probably utilizing taunt minions, some lifesteal, soul fragments, and strong single target removal, plus Sigils (which are now in Barrens as "start of your next turn" spell effects). Maybe some armor generation, and "thorn" effects, too (deal damage when damage is dealt to you). Would be an excellent archetype to focus on Frenzy effects.
As an example, Spirit Bomb in WoW is not a warlock spell, but rather a DH Vengeance ability that gathers all nearby Soul Fragments to heal you and then deal damage to the enemy. If implemented in HS correctly, it would probably have been in the Soul Fragment cycle and would have been something like, "Draw up to 5 Soul Fragments from your deck. Deal that much damage to all minions."
Oh, and regarding Outcast. If they want control DH to work as an archetype, they're gonna need a way to move cards around in your hand. Something that shifts your highest/lowest Outcast card to the leftmost slot in your hand when played, or even just a minion that you can play which will guarantee an Outcast regardless of hand position. DH's hero power lends itself really well to aggro, but with a proper control shell could be instead used for single target removal and lifesteal. Weapons that discourage going face and encourage going after minions would be a good way to reward less face-oriented archetypes.
Demon Hunter has board clears. And incredible single target removal. And efficient card draw. And aggressive-or-late game tribal synergies. Et cetera et cetera.
DH has incredible removal and efficient card draw ? You mean better removal than Sap ? More efficient care draw than cycle-30 cards-in-4-turns rogue ? Late game tribal synergy that no one has ever used ? And again, what class doesn't have all of that ? I'm really asking, answer me if you can, now that it's been established that rogue has/had all of that despite your denial, what about the other classes ? They don't have incredible removal and board clears ? Execute ? Plague of death ? hysteria ? Hero reno ? hex ? They don't have card draw ? They don't have aggro and control options ? They don't have at least 1 tribe, most likely 2 or 3 to play with ?
No matter how you look at it, everthing that is critisized about demon hunters identity crisis, other classes have it too. DH is just an aggro centric class with weapon and healing. It's between warrior and rogue thematically. And on the balance side, like I said multiple times it's the least played and the least powerful class by far, how can anyone know this and still claim that DH has "everything and more" ?
You know why DH has healing and rogue don't ? Because rogue is way stronger at dealing with the board without using his face. With strong healing rogue would just be an abomination going face and ignoring the board every single turn.
Just be honest with yourself I don't care that you lie to me but don't lie in the mirror. You don't like DH and you want the class dead because it was taking your oppressive aggro easy win spot in the meta, period.
DH identity is fine and is way more refined and restricted than what other classes have had access to in the past 7 years. Anyone tell me what is paladin identity ? Yeah right.
But you people won't stop until every single DH card has been nerfed, I know that, it's not at all about class identity, i'm just wasting everyone's time here.
Just watch Illidari Inquisitor, Skull of Gul'dan, Immolation Aura and Coilfang Warlord being nerfed for no other reason than the community feelings. Mark my words it's happening in the next rotation. You can't just nerf aggro DH and let it be the worst class in the game, he needs to disappear entirely.
Demon Hunter has board clears. And incredible single target removal. And efficient card draw. And aggressive-or-late game tribal synergies. Et cetera et cetera.
*being vaguely correct but also rude and assumptive*
I cut down your whole reply for thread brevity, but I did read it.
I personally don't dislike Demon Hunter. I think it's cool, and I like what it has. I don't begrudge it for having similar qualities to other classes, and I don't want it to get nerfed. I like where it's at.
Sure, Sap is good. Sap is also being removed from the Core Set, so we won't be seeing it in standard for at least a year, because it's too good. I never said what Demon Hunter had was better than Sap, I just said it was good. I didn't even say it was the best, I just said it was incredible. You're right that currently Rogue has the most insane card draw we've ever seen (I think), but that doesn't mean that Demon Hunter doesn't have good card draw. Other things being better than something doesn't make the other thing bad. Jupiter is 318 time bigger than Earth, that doesn't mean Earth is small. All you've done is try and dismiss what I've said by comparing DH cards to other cards (and dismissing Big Demons as an archetype that nobody plays, which - well yeah you're right - doesn't mean it doesn't exist).
You're right that class identity is weird and kind of bad. I've already said they're strange and muddled, and I personally think classes aren't distinct enough from one another.
Also, Paladin's class identity is mainly rooted in spells that buff minions, Silver Hand Recruit tribal, and whatever flavor-of-the-season thing they get every few expansions. Paladin has a strong thematic identity, aggressive champions of the Light, using its power for healing and stats. Silver Hand Recruits is actually unique only to Paladin, and I'll praise anything that's unique to a single class, even if it's just something stapled to their Hero Power since day 1.
I literally saw your avatar and was torn between shitting myself laughing at your expense or hoping against hope that something resembling irony might be involved.
Replace "demon" and "outcast" with relevant class mechanics and this describes literally every class.
DH identity is going face, fast cycling through cards and summoning demons. If they add more, it's expansion identity, not class identity. Like deathrattles in the barrens. Like recruit cards. Like jade. Ever heard of expansion themes ?
Every class has mana cheating. Every class has healing (cry me a river rogue). Every class has board clears. Every class has card draw. Most classes have weapons.
In fact, only a few classes have a truly unique mechanic, like overload for shaman or ramp for druid. DH has outcast.
As a side note, why are people still being toxic about DH when it's by far the worst class in the game, butchered by so many nerfs it's literally unplayable ?
Demon Hunter at its conception borrowed a lot of what Hunter and Rogue had while not also borrowing their weaknesses, incredible aggression and tempo, alongside a lot of lifegain, mana cheating, and card draw - things that kept the original two classes from being too strong because they lacked them.
When did rogue lack card draw and mana cheating exactly ?
rogue doesn't have board clears either, nor will it have "hero power synergy" since you want to buff real weapons, not your hero power, nor will it have deathrattle synergy once rotation happens. Rogue identity will literally just be draw cards, hit face, and swing the board by mana cheating.
Rogue doesn’t have board clears per se, However because they are able to play a lot of cards by cheating Mana they can chain together a series of single minion destruction in order to make it into a board clear
They said in the reveal stream there was a Leper Gnome-like minion for DH that tied the whole thing together, but felt super frustrating to play against so they had to scrap it after playtesting. Hopefully they have the miniset to address this fuck up, but until then its Freeze Shaman 2.0 lol.
Demon Hunter has board clears. And incredible single target removal. And efficient card draw. And aggressive-or-late game tribal synergies. Et cetera et cetera.
*being vaguely correct but also rude and assumptive*
I cut down your whole reply for thread brevity, but I did read it.
I personally don't dislike Demon Hunter. I think it's cool, and I like what it has. I don't begrudge it for having similar qualities to other classes, and I don't want it to get nerfed. I like where it's at.
Sure, Sap is good. Sap is also being removed from the Core Set, so we won't be seeing it in standard for at least a year, because it's too good. I never said what Demon Hunter had was better than Sap, I just said it was good. I didn't even say it was the best, I just said it was incredible. You're right that currently Rogue has the most insane card draw we've ever seen (I think), but that doesn't mean that Demon Hunter doesn't have good card draw. Other things being better than something doesn't make the other thing bad. Jupiter is 318 time bigger than Earth, that doesn't mean Earth is small. All you've done is try and dismiss what I've said by comparing DH cards to other cards (and dismissing Big Demons as an archetype that nobody plays, which - well yeah you're right - doesn't mean it doesn't exist).
You're right that class identity is weird and kind of bad. I've already said they're strange and muddled, and I personally think classes aren't distinct enough from one another.
Also, Paladin's class identity is mainly rooted in spells that buff minions, Silver Hand Recruit tribal, and whatever flavor-of-the-season thing they get every few expansions. Paladin has a strong thematic identity, aggressive champions of the Light, using its power for healing and stats. Silver Hand Recruits is actually unique only to Paladin, and I'll praise anything that's unique to a single class, even if it's just something stapled to their Hero Power since day 1.
Apologies for being rude it's a bad internet habit I have to work out.
It's wild that they're trying to push deathrattle Demon Hunter without printing any cards that actually payoff for playing deathrattle Demon Hunter. Reminds me of a certain Shaman theme.
Let me guess a good payoff would be a 2 mana 10/10 summon all deathrattle from your decks, give them charge taunt and lifesteal ?
Considering that all of the "deathrattle Demon Hunter" cards seem to be aiming at cheating out lots of low-cost deathrattle minions, how about something that sticks, like a mini Rattlegore? Or just anything worth cheating out in general? They'd really need a few worthwhile 4-drop deathrattles to go with that legendary and Razorfen Beastmaster.
The initiate set rotation took away pretty much anything I found enjoyable about DH (like Wrathscale Naga for example) and FitB gives absolutely nothing back. DH is left with the best card draw in the game (Mage and Rogue are putting up a fight though) and the outcast mechanic which is certainly interesting, but doesn't make up a viable archetype on its own. What's left is the OTK deck and probably some aggro stuff. I won't bother with DH for a while. Too many (or misplaced) nerfs and uncreative design killed the class.
You guys are only talking about standard right? Cause in other modes, Deathrattle will have a ton of support
Definitely not lol.
Card draw and outcast.
Outcast is a pretty unique mechanic. If you've played tempo; midrange; or combo demon hunter, you frequently have to decide whether to play outcast cards the turn they're drawn and you will also play cards just to get to your outcast cards. Early on, a lot of demon hunter cards interacted with hero attacking and I hope they continue to make them. It would be really cool if cards had a condition that requires attacking minions to make demon hunter more control oriented.
Rogue may not have been lacking in card draw, but it WAS lacking in card draw that was so efficient that it could be played in tempo and aggro decks without sacrificing anything (at least, in the before times this was the case). Also, Rogue wasn't meant to gain a lot of life, which is why they've never gotten healing outside of weapon specific Lifesteal cards like Spectral Cutlass or Leeching Poison - which was too strong and gave Rogue too much healing, so they had to nerf it.
An as Pizzacats says, Rogue also was limited in Board Clears. Fan of Knives is far too lacking in power to be called a "board clear" since it doesn't have synergies like health reduction, it's basically a "large scale ping cantrip". Vanish WAS a board clear, and a dang good one at that, which is why they Hall of Famed it. And Blade Flurry is far too narrow to hinge Rogue's class identity on. In any Rogue deck, it's a cheaper Fan of Knives with no card draw. In specifically Kingsbane Rogue, it IS a really effective board clear, though it still has a "cost" and prerequisite, so I don't count it as highly as I do Vanish.
Demon Hunter has board clears. And incredible single target removal. And efficient card draw. And aggressive-or-late game tribal synergies. Et cetera et cetera.
please don't bully my son
They cant, those archetypes are losing very little with rotation and more support now would cause balancing issues. Thats why they often pull strategies out of their ass for some classes, the "pre-conceived" ones would be too busted if those were all they could support.
i mean it has some sort of sense, like in the token synergies, dh takes power from death, and istead of resummoning a million times the same minion like priest, triggering multiple times the same deathrattle or cheating it like rogue and hunter, it just chains it and cycle them into "stronger" minions
If they were going to give Demon Hunters a Deathrattle theme, it should have revolved around 1.) Demon tribe minions with Deathrattle effects, and 2.) Demon Hunters that get benefits when Demon tribe minions die. Play around with the idea that you're, y'know, playing a class that's dedicated to killing demons.
Like, Aranasi (demon spiders from WoW) that swarm cheap demons on both sides of the board that you can then mop up with other cards that could have things like "whenever a demon dies deal 1 damage to the enemy hero" or "gain +1/+1 for each demon that died this turn." Or maybe things that spawn curse/kiss demons onto your opponent's side of the board, like 3/2 burning imp "deal 2 damage to your hero at the start of your turn."
Giving them random half-assed deathrattle synergy cards that rely entirely on neutral deathrattles is super lame.
Going further into the class as it appears in WoW, it has two specializations: Havoc, an agile, aggressive damage dealer that uses blades and fel magic, and Vengeance, a slow, brutish tank that damages attackers with spikes/horns and heals itself through leech (lifesteal) and spawning soul fragments.
Havoc has two main variations, Momentum revolves around acrobatic physical attacks and Demonic revolves around triggering Metamorphosis and doing AoE attacks that have Leech (Lifesteal).
Generally I think they do a good job capturing the Havoc playstyles. High risk, high reward, as DH is squishy but can heal by dealing damage, meaning you're rewarded for attacking large groups of enemies and burning them down with AoE lifesteal effects to get back your health, and also spawning soul fragments when they die to heal yourself.
Vengeance on the other hand is not really represented at all. It would be a tanky control deck, probably utilizing taunt minions, some lifesteal, soul fragments, and strong single target removal, plus Sigils (which are now in Barrens as "start of your next turn" spell effects). Maybe some armor generation, and "thorn" effects, too (deal damage when damage is dealt to you). Would be an excellent archetype to focus on Frenzy effects.
As an example, Spirit Bomb in WoW is not a warlock spell, but rather a DH Vengeance ability that gathers all nearby Soul Fragments to heal you and then deal damage to the enemy. If implemented in HS correctly, it would probably have been in the Soul Fragment cycle and would have been something like, "Draw up to 5 Soul Fragments from your deck. Deal that much damage to all minions."
Oh, and regarding Outcast. If they want control DH to work as an archetype, they're gonna need a way to move cards around in your hand. Something that shifts your highest/lowest Outcast card to the leftmost slot in your hand when played, or even just a minion that you can play which will guarantee an Outcast regardless of hand position. DH's hero power lends itself really well to aggro, but with a proper control shell could be instead used for single target removal and lifesteal. Weapons that discourage going face and encourage going after minions would be a good way to reward less face-oriented archetypes.
DH has incredible removal and efficient card draw ? You mean better removal than Sap ? More efficient care draw than cycle-30 cards-in-4-turns rogue ? Late game tribal synergy that no one has ever used ? And again, what class doesn't have all of that ? I'm really asking, answer me if you can, now that it's been established that rogue has/had all of that despite your denial, what about the other classes ? They don't have incredible removal and board clears ? Execute ? Plague of death ? hysteria ? Hero reno ? hex ? They don't have card draw ? They don't have aggro and control options ? They don't have at least 1 tribe, most likely 2 or 3 to play with ?
No matter how you look at it, everthing that is critisized about demon hunters identity crisis, other classes have it too. DH is just an aggro centric class with weapon and healing. It's between warrior and rogue thematically. And on the balance side, like I said multiple times it's the least played and the least powerful class by far, how can anyone know this and still claim that DH has "everything and more" ?
You know why DH has healing and rogue don't ? Because rogue is way stronger at dealing with the board without using his face. With strong healing rogue would just be an abomination going face and ignoring the board every single turn.
Just be honest with yourself I don't care that you lie to me but don't lie in the mirror. You don't like DH and you want the class dead because it was taking your oppressive aggro easy win spot in the meta, period.
DH identity is fine and is way more refined and restricted than what other classes have had access to in the past 7 years. Anyone tell me what is paladin identity ? Yeah right.
But you people won't stop until every single DH card has been nerfed, I know that, it's not at all about class identity, i'm just wasting everyone's time here.
Just watch Illidari Inquisitor, Skull of Gul'dan, Immolation Aura and Coilfang Warlord being nerfed for no other reason than the community feelings. Mark my words it's happening in the next rotation. You can't just nerf aggro DH and let it be the worst class in the game, he needs to disappear entirely.
I cut down your whole reply for thread brevity, but I did read it.
I personally don't dislike Demon Hunter. I think it's cool, and I like what it has. I don't begrudge it for having similar qualities to other classes, and I don't want it to get nerfed. I like where it's at.
Sure, Sap is good. Sap is also being removed from the Core Set, so we won't be seeing it in standard for at least a year, because it's too good. I never said what Demon Hunter had was better than Sap, I just said it was good. I didn't even say it was the best, I just said it was incredible. You're right that currently Rogue has the most insane card draw we've ever seen (I think), but that doesn't mean that Demon Hunter doesn't have good card draw. Other things being better than something doesn't make the other thing bad. Jupiter is 318 time bigger than Earth, that doesn't mean Earth is small. All you've done is try and dismiss what I've said by comparing DH cards to other cards (and dismissing Big Demons as an archetype that nobody plays, which - well yeah you're right - doesn't mean it doesn't exist).
You're right that class identity is weird and kind of bad. I've already said they're strange and muddled, and I personally think classes aren't distinct enough from one another.
Also, Paladin's class identity is mainly rooted in spells that buff minions, Silver Hand Recruit tribal, and whatever flavor-of-the-season thing they get every few expansions. Paladin has a strong thematic identity, aggressive champions of the Light, using its power for healing and stats. Silver Hand Recruits is actually unique only to Paladin, and I'll praise anything that's unique to a single class, even if it's just something stapled to their Hero Power since day 1.
please don't bully my son
I literally saw your avatar and was torn between shitting myself laughing at your expense or hoping against hope that something resembling irony might be involved.
Rogue doesn’t have board clears per se, However because they are able to play a lot of cards by cheating Mana they can chain together a series of single minion destruction in order to make it into a board clear
There is no such thing as class identity in HS. It's just a lie the developers feed you.
They could barely make 9 classes feel unique, let alone 10.
They said in the reveal stream there was a Leper Gnome-like minion for DH that tied the whole thing together, but felt super frustrating to play against so they had to scrap it after playtesting. Hopefully they have the miniset to address this fuck up, but until then its Freeze Shaman 2.0 lol.
Apologies for being rude it's a bad internet habit I have to work out.
Considering that all of the "deathrattle Demon Hunter" cards seem to be aiming at cheating out lots of low-cost deathrattle minions, how about something that sticks, like a mini Rattlegore? Or just anything worth cheating out in general? They'd really need a few worthwhile 4-drop deathrattles to go with that legendary and Razorfen Beastmaster.
The initiate set rotation took away pretty much anything I found enjoyable about DH (like Wrathscale Naga for example) and FitB gives absolutely nothing back. DH is left with the best card draw in the game (Mage and Rogue are putting up a fight though) and the outcast mechanic which is certainly interesting, but doesn't make up a viable archetype on its own. What's left is the OTK deck and probably some aggro stuff. I won't bother with DH for a while. Too many (or misplaced) nerfs and uncreative design killed the class.
Ceterum censeo classum magi esse delendam.
This is true, which is really sad. -.-