Tier doesn't mean anything. Rogue has been so oppressive, the meta has tech'd just to counter Rogue.
As far as feelings go, Rogue just poses very uninteresting gameplay. You can't interact with a weapon bashing into your face the whole match, and you can't even interact with the minions because they're all stealthed. Add to that the fact that Rogue has Secret Passage, it makes it a ridiculous aggro deck, without ever running out of cards.
Isn't refusing to run anti-weapon tech the same as not running taunts against hyper-aggro decks and then complaining how they are unbeatable? If Ooze catches my buffed self-sharpening, which every player worth his salt will do, it is pretty much GG for me. Likewise lots of taunt and AoE hurt too obviously, stealth does not help with those.
Are you implaying that Ooze is a good card? cause is not. You can play around it really easy by dont overbuffed your first weapon. You only need to buff your weapon like 2 times to cut down half of your opponent HP only with weapon damage. Or killing it if all that goes to face plus 1 spell. Lets see with only 2 deadly poison the Self sharpenned is 5 base attack: 5+6+7+8= 26 . Them stealing the weapon? It depends, By turn 5 most of the times the weapon equiped has dealing atleast 2 or 3 attack so there is not point in stealing. Do you see the problem here right? i am only counting weapon damage and weapon attack. Rogue right now has still 6 burst of stealth minion damage more or less, per turn.
Now lets talk about Taunts: Rogue is a class that is well suited against taunt minions. Its part of their theme being able to counter taunt minions "kind of" all their free undamage minion damage or minion damage that scales with cards plays are not for trading value minions. Its for destroy taunts. Value minions dont matter at all if your opponent dies in 4 weapon hits unless this minions can bring some kind of healing effect.
So i am not saying is broken because is not. But is obvius that the STANDARD in ROTATION is not well suited for dealing with Rogue as an aggresive class. People is not taking ou Ooze from their decks because they are masochist. If they dont run the card in most decks is because the card dont work against Rogue. Your scenario of "if they catch my weapon buffed" is literally only valid for "i draw this weapon very very late and i will buffed it with 3 spells or more BEFORE i´m able to attack with it, because i am a really bad player" literally.
Isn't refusing to run anti-weapon tech the same as not running taunts against hyper-aggro decks and then complaining how they are unbeatable? If Ooze catches my buffed self-sharpening, which every player worth his salt will do, it is pretty much GG for me. Likewise lots of taunt and AoE hurt too obviously, stealth does not help with those.
You can run 2x ooze, but for example by turn 7 other classes (priest, warrior, hunter, shaman) see 3-4 starting cards (2x, if he decides to switch all of them), draw 7 and maybe get 1-2 from draw. Similarly other classes - so best case scenario, he sees 14 cards while mulliganing all hand.
This is something Rogue players dont understand - even if you play all counters and invest 7-8 cards specificall to counter rogue, you will often not find them or you find them at time you dont need them anymore.
I am a stealth rogue main atm though. I know how it feels from the other end. Ooze on buffed up wep is pretty much GG. You say they don't always get their tools. Well should they? I mean having the tools 100% of the time would mean dead rogue 90% of the time... that does not sound balanced either. You say you are a rogue main, did you even play modern stealth rogue? It is far from omnipotent, it is barely good actually. If you haven't play it, you will see it is far from ideal. And if they really want us dead dead dead they can just load up on taunts, heals and even Harrison Jones.
@HeilKise hehe, first off nice trying to peg me as a bad player. I don't play around ooze (much) because few people are smart enough to run ooze. But they totally should since it craps on us a lot. It would as you say slow down the weapon buffing and even catching a 3 dura one poison Sharepened Blade is a good play for them which is max play around.
Also Stealth Rogues don't tend to run Backstab so in fact I question your competency. Taunts are a pain, as I said taunt druid can just swamp you with them and you run out of removal even if you carefully shepherd it. Every Evis that has to target a taunt is not targeting face, we can run out of steam. Sometimes our whole deck is not enough. I'd say aggro hunt and druid are just as good as us or better, at least VS us.
Ultimately I think these discussions are fruitless since it depends on opinion. I have played this deck and i can tell it is not some Godmode beast. It is a good deck but not outstanding. And there is very little you could say that would make me change my mind. And I am sure the reverse is true.
So I will bow down out of this discussion unless I see something that can be argued with or that is patently wrong.
@HeilKise hehe, first off nice trying to peg me as a bad player
Nope, im sorry if you miss understand that phrase. What i want to said is that Buffed your weapon before you can get value of it is a bad play. 100%. About the other stuff how exaclty "taunts are a pain when you run a 2 mana 2/1 "destroy a taun if you play 4 cards" (which you will normally do anyways cause Pen Flinger. I get what you said "i need to invest stuff in kill taunts" but that is your win plan anyways so you are not wasting pings of Pen Flinger or Eviserates in removing taunts. Even if you waste 1 of your weapons charges in killing one taunt in one hit is worth. Like i said before i dont said the deck is beyond broken but there is something of true in being one of the 3 best decks right now with Token Druid and WhateverisMage when everyone is playing those 3 decks in the same meta than Tickatus Warlock that can randomly healing from 10 to 30 two times in a row with soul fragments right?. That deck runs a plenty amount of taunts too and AoE and still dont push out the meta this aggresive (not pure aggro tho) decks that you find literally 3 times in 5 mathes.
I dont want you to accept my opinion or stuff like that but you know as well as i know that you are running a deck that in front of taunts and healing can still do like 60 damage in the game or more. Why you are trying to implay that cards like Ooze should be staples or see more play when you also admit that is easy to play around it if it was more common on your mathes?. Like that not makes any sense. Dirty Rat and the Epic Ooze are great tech cards because they are good (or okeysh) even if you are not facing a deck that requires those cards. Normal Ooze and the Pirate are bad tech cards because they are ONLY good when you face those deck and get value of them. If not you are just playing a bad minion on tempo. Not even an okeysh minion (like epic ooze). A bad minion.
What? Are you implying you are surprised that it got nerfed? It's a 1 mana +4 attack on a minion and a weapon, the weapon part gives it even more of an advantage ranging it from +6 attack to +12 attack on self-sharpening. It's better than cold blood which was 1 mana +4 attack on just a minion before it got nerfed to 2 mana.
Forgetting to mention of course that nitroboost poison gets perfect synergy with cutting class, dread corsair, blade dancer and just anything that is stealth or charge to give the +2 attack boost. It gets corrupted incredibly easy as well, play any weapon from your hand on turn 4 and you can immediately boost it.
So yeah, I think it's actually good that this got nerfed.
Isn't refusing to run anti-weapon tech the same as not running taunts against hyper-aggro decks and then complaining how they are unbeatable? If Ooze catches my buffed self-sharpening, which every player worth his salt will do, it is pretty much GG for me. Likewise lots of taunt and AoE hurt too obviously, stealth does not help with those.
You can run 2x ooze, but for example by turn 7 other classes (priest, warrior, hunter, shaman) see 3-4 starting cards (2x, if he decides to switch all of them), draw 7 and maybe get 1-2 from draw. Similarly other classes - so best case scenario, he sees 14 cards while mulliganing all hand.
This is something Rogue players dont understand - even if you play all counters and invest 7-8 cards specificall to counter rogue, you will often not find them or you find them at time you dont need them anymore.
I am a stealth rogue main atm though. I know how it feels from the other end. Ooze on buffed up wep is pretty much GG. You say they don't always get their tools. Well should they? I mean having the tools 100% of the time would mean dead rogue 90% of the time... that does not sound balanced either. You say you are a rogue main, did you even play modern stealth rogue? It is far from omnipotent, it is barely good actually. If you haven't play it, you will see it is far from ideal. And if they really want us dead dead dead they can just load up on taunts, heals and even Harrison Jones.
"Barely good" - most played deck on HSreplay (110.000 games played, while 2nd most us under 50k games) with >58%.
I think you are just trolling here, because if you are pushing this kind of narrative "barely good", because everything is pointing towards "this deck is insane". It is almost guaranteed win against any other deck, which doesnt have 5+ clears, 2 weapon destro and heals and is able to play it all by turn 10. And even if they have it all in deck and they dont draw it at correct time they lose anyway.
Man I played Secret mage and even with that deck, specifically built to counter rogue I have barely over 50% winrate. I play priest, which has only taunts, only heals and I have below 30% winrate. I play deathrattle hunter, I put there 2 oozes, 5 boardclears and I have below 15% winrate.
They have to completely kill secret passage. Either discard everything you get after playing it (draw, discover, everything) or discard the hand you had originally and/or make it cost 2-3 mana. Than this deck will become at least somehow fair. Probably put deadly poison to 2 as well.
The other thing is, that Rogue can play their best possible deck they want and not to worry about any counter. Everybody else is stupid for not running 4 weapon destro and 10 boardclears.
In summary I think rogue hate is really overblown and uncalled for. And indeed I invite people to try out rogue for themselves if they have the cards. They will realize it is far from unbeatable but they will have fun since it is a fun deck. The miracle style plays in particular feel very rewarding when you just barely scrape together a win.
The thing is, no matter how much you try and how accurate the facts you present, most people just won’t care for facts as much as emotions. Thats why you should always appeal for emotions using Pathos argument with your facts (Logos argument).
Hearthstone is a game where you win by reducing your opponent’s health to 0. Naturally you want to maximize anything that leads you towards that goal. Stealth Rogue does that too well because your opponent is left with little to no interactions possible with your minions. No interactions possible means your minions can work more towards that goal of reducing your opponents health to 0.
Aggro game plan isn’t really healthy for the game despite it being the most straightforward into getting to the game’s goal of reducing your opponent’s health to 0. Aggro decks leaves the game feeling like Player vs NPC, a single player game where you want the least amount of interactions possible with your opponent while simultaneously leave them with the least opportunity for interactions. So of course people will get mad and hate decks that makes the game feel like a single player game, where the other player feels like he is just interested in repeatedly kicking you in the shins than play a board game.
Bottom line is: I don’t really know what you want to be honest. Sounds to me like you just want to keep playing a bully deck without getting yelled out by your other class mates or school. You don’t seem like the sort to sympathize with your opponent (i.e because your playing this deck) so why pointlessly play the victim here? By all means just play the deck, ignore the hate and shut up I guess. It isn’t effecting you in the end.
People (well one person, who started this topic and claims it is "barely good") are saying you need to counter this deck with ooze and other stuff. The thing is, that if I put oozes into my deck, it is useless against another 6 classes (Warrior, DH and Paladin play weapons, which are secondary and dont win games usually). If I put small minion removals, it is useless against 7-8 classes.
So generally he is asking us to destroy our decks and focus on countering one (his) as it is logical thing. With this logic I would have to play silence effects in the deck to counter deathrattles/effects, I would have to play some secret removals to counter mage/Hunter/Rogue, I would have to play boardclears for small minions (rogue), token boards and big boards (res priest/big druid) and many other things I forgot already.
This is something, that Rogue can ignore - he plays face, doesnt care about anything at all, what opponent does and still gets 58% winrate (probably higher, because it is most played class/decks, so it gets lower winrate by meeting a lot of other rogues, which lowers it to 50%).
Again - they need to nerf Rogue to the ground, this is extremely unhealthy to the game and I will probably wait till nerfs to play again ranked, as it is impossible to play against it with fun decks. And it is not fun to play rogue.
Rogues have always had a bad relationship with everyone else, because that's how they are designed. Solo, sneaky, tricky and does whatever they can to win. Blizzard has carefully considered this reputation since WoW and implemented it perfectly into Hearthstone.
Rarely do I recall anyone ever praising a rogue for what they do.
They might accidentally pull mobs in a dungeon because they're behind them (and closer to the next group), or they annoy you in PvP (they either get you or they disappear again).
So, if anything... perfectly designed class identity in HS.
Rogues have always had a bad relationship with everyone else, because that's how they are designed. Solo, sneaky, tricky and does whatever they can to win. Blizzard has carefully considered this reputation since WoW and implemented it perfectly into Hearthstone.
Rarely do I recall anyone ever praising a rogue for what they do.
They might accidentally pull mobs in a dungeon because they're behind them (and closer to the next group), or they annoy you in PvP (they either get you or they disappear again).
So, if anything... perfectly designed class identity in HS.
Wow, people seem to be really hating rogue. I just had a game against a warlock who ran two oozes and a stickyfinger. Unfornutaley the game designers didn't adress the real problem with aggro rogue which aren't the weapon synergies but Pen Flinger (and to some extent Secret Passage).
If they would nerf those cards, I could peacefully go on playing my midrange Weapon Rogue without all those jerks stealing and removing my weapons.
It is considered a tier 2 deck yet it gets hate like no other in particular.
That big taunt druid also I'd say is bad.
Pure Pala is also a pain.
In fact every match up is struggle and none make me go "nice, ezmode"...
I am now high diamond and despite being a good player
Literaly everything is wrong. Ramp druid gets smashed before he can play anycards, pure pala needs to get an insane opening hand or he is dead by turn 5(just like any deck against brainless face rogue)...
But the best fact is talking about a tier 2 deck... So a player that says he is a good player believes in what hsreplay says about the meta....jeje. rogue is literally the most played deck, the fastest deck, the cheapest deck and the deck with higher winrate, he can play 6-7 cards and draw many cards per turn with like 4-5 mana, so it is incredible that someone thinks it is fine...
Pd: nerf wasnt enough, the pinflinger is one of the most toxic cards in this game history and needs to be changed so he can only tarjet minions.
Btw looking at rogue in vicious syndicate (hope I can post the link, if not, sorry for that) - in every rank both aggro and whirlkick are T1 decks, in TOP1k legend they are only T1 decks.
So 31% of decks in top 1000 Legend and over double that of the next most prominent deck (and the same as the class as a whole)? I think it needs a buff.
I don't like Aggro/OTK Decks in general. I really enjoyed Highlander Rogue in standard though unfortunatly it will be gone soon with the Rotation.
I'm worried that Weapon/Aggro will be the only viable option rogue will be left with in standard after the expansion hits so I might drop the class till they release the next expansion.
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Even if you had all aoe in the world you wouldnt play it as rogue, because aoe doesnt go face lol.
Are you implaying that Ooze is a good card? cause is not. You can play around it really easy by dont overbuffed your first weapon. You only need to buff your weapon like 2 times to cut down half of your opponent HP only with weapon damage. Or killing it if all that goes to face plus 1 spell. Lets see with only 2 deadly poison the Self sharpenned is 5 base attack: 5+6+7+8= 26 . Them stealing the weapon? It depends, By turn 5 most of the times the weapon equiped has dealing atleast 2 or 3 attack so there is not point in stealing. Do you see the problem here right? i am only counting weapon damage and weapon attack. Rogue right now has still 6 burst of stealth minion damage more or less, per turn.
Now lets talk about Taunts: Rogue is a class that is well suited against taunt minions. Its part of their theme being able to counter taunt minions "kind of" all their free undamage minion damage or minion damage that scales with cards plays are not for trading value minions. Its for destroy taunts. Value minions dont matter at all if your opponent dies in 4 weapon hits unless this minions can bring some kind of healing effect.
So i am not saying is broken because is not. But is obvius that the STANDARD in ROTATION is not well suited for dealing with Rogue as an aggresive class. People is not taking ou Ooze from their decks because they are masochist. If they dont run the card in most decks is because the card dont work against Rogue. Your scenario of "if they catch my weapon buffed" is literally only valid for "i draw this weapon very very late and i will buffed it with 3 spells or more BEFORE i´m able to attack with it, because i am a really bad player" literally.
I am a stealth rogue main atm though. I know how it feels from the other end. Ooze on buffed up wep is pretty much GG. You say they don't always get their tools. Well should they? I mean having the tools 100% of the time would mean dead rogue 90% of the time... that does not sound balanced either. You say you are a rogue main, did you even play modern stealth rogue? It is far from omnipotent, it is barely good actually. If you haven't play it, you will see it is far from ideal. And if they really want us dead dead dead they can just load up on taunts, heals and even Harrison Jones.
@HeilKise hehe, first off nice trying to peg me as a bad player. I don't play around ooze (much) because few people are smart enough to run ooze. But they totally should since it craps on us a lot. It would as you say slow down the weapon buffing and even catching a 3 dura one poison Sharepened Blade is a good play for them which is max play around.
Also Stealth Rogues don't tend to run Backstab so in fact I question your competency. Taunts are a pain, as I said taunt druid can just swamp you with them and you run out of removal even if you carefully shepherd it. Every Evis that has to target a taunt is not targeting face, we can run out of steam. Sometimes our whole deck is not enough. I'd say aggro hunt and druid are just as good as us or better, at least VS us.
Ultimately I think these discussions are fruitless since it depends on opinion. I have played this deck and i can tell it is not some Godmode beast. It is a good deck but not outstanding. And there is very little you could say that would make me change my mind. And I am sure the reverse is true.
So I will bow down out of this discussion unless I see something that can be argued with or that is patently wrong.
Nope, im sorry if you miss understand that phrase. What i want to said is that Buffed your weapon before you can get value of it is a bad play. 100%. About the other stuff how exaclty "taunts are a pain when you run a 2 mana 2/1 "destroy a taun if you play 4 cards" (which you will normally do anyways cause Pen Flinger. I get what you said "i need to invest stuff in kill taunts" but that is your win plan anyways so you are not wasting pings of Pen Flinger or Eviserates in removing taunts. Even if you waste 1 of your weapons charges in killing one taunt in one hit is worth. Like i said before i dont said the deck is beyond broken but there is something of true in being one of the 3 best decks right now with Token Druid and WhateverisMage when everyone is playing those 3 decks in the same meta than Tickatus Warlock that can randomly healing from 10 to 30 two times in a row with soul fragments right?. That deck runs a plenty amount of taunts too and AoE and still dont push out the meta this aggresive (not pure aggro tho) decks that you find literally 3 times in 5 mathes.
I dont want you to accept my opinion or stuff like that but you know as well as i know that you are running a deck that in front of taunts and healing can still do like 60 damage in the game or more. Why you are trying to implay that cards like Ooze should be staples or see more play when you also admit that is easy to play around it if it was more common on your mathes?. Like that not makes any sense. Dirty Rat and the Epic Ooze are great tech cards because they are good (or okeysh) even if you are not facing a deck that requires those cards. Normal Ooze and the Pirate are bad tech cards because they are ONLY good when you face those deck and get value of them. If not you are just playing a bad minion on tempo. Not even an okeysh minion (like epic ooze). A bad minion.
What? Are you implying you are surprised that it got nerfed? It's a 1 mana +4 attack on a minion and a weapon, the weapon part gives it even more of an advantage ranging it from +6 attack to +12 attack on self-sharpening. It's better than cold blood which was 1 mana +4 attack on just a minion before it got nerfed to 2 mana.
Forgetting to mention of course that nitroboost poison gets perfect synergy with cutting class, dread corsair, blade dancer and just anything that is stealth or charge to give the +2 attack boost. It gets corrupted incredibly easy as well, play any weapon from your hand on turn 4 and you can immediately boost it.
So yeah, I think it's actually good that this got nerfed.
"Barely good" - most played deck on HSreplay (110.000 games played, while 2nd most us under 50k games) with >58%.
I think you are just trolling here, because if you are pushing this kind of narrative "barely good", because everything is pointing towards "this deck is insane". It is almost guaranteed win against any other deck, which doesnt have 5+ clears, 2 weapon destro and heals and is able to play it all by turn 10. And even if they have it all in deck and they dont draw it at correct time they lose anyway.
Man I played Secret mage and even with that deck, specifically built to counter rogue I have barely over 50% winrate. I play priest, which has only taunts, only heals and I have below 30% winrate. I play deathrattle hunter, I put there 2 oozes, 5 boardclears and I have below 15% winrate.
They have to completely kill secret passage. Either discard everything you get after playing it (draw, discover, everything) or discard the hand you had originally and/or make it cost 2-3 mana. Than this deck will become at least somehow fair. Probably put deadly poison to 2 as well.
The other thing is, that Rogue can play their best possible deck they want and not to worry about any counter. Everybody else is stupid for not running 4 weapon destro and 10 boardclears.
The thing is, no matter how much you try and how accurate the facts you present, most people just won’t care for facts as much as emotions. Thats why you should always appeal for emotions using Pathos argument with your facts (Logos argument).
Hearthstone is a game where you win by reducing your opponent’s health to 0. Naturally you want to maximize anything that leads you towards that goal. Stealth Rogue does that too well because your opponent is left with little to no interactions possible with your minions. No interactions possible means your minions can work more towards that goal of reducing your opponents health to 0.
Aggro game plan isn’t really healthy for the game despite it being the most straightforward into getting to the game’s goal of reducing your opponent’s health to 0. Aggro decks leaves the game feeling like Player vs NPC, a single player game where you want the least amount of interactions possible with your opponent while simultaneously leave them with the least opportunity for interactions. So of course people will get mad and hate decks that makes the game feel like a single player game, where the other player feels like he is just interested in repeatedly kicking you in the shins than play a board game.
Bottom line is: I don’t really know what you want to be honest. Sounds to me like you just want to keep playing a bully deck without getting yelled out by your other class mates or school. You don’t seem like the sort to sympathize with your opponent (i.e because your playing this deck) so why pointlessly play the victim here? By all means just play the deck, ignore the hate and shut up I guess. It isn’t effecting you in the end.
Sign Here
One more thing to say here
People (well one person, who started this topic and claims it is "barely good") are saying you need to counter this deck with ooze and other stuff. The thing is, that if I put oozes into my deck, it is useless against another 6 classes (Warrior, DH and Paladin play weapons, which are secondary and dont win games usually). If I put small minion removals, it is useless against 7-8 classes.
So generally he is asking us to destroy our decks and focus on countering one (his) as it is logical thing. With this logic I would have to play silence effects in the deck to counter deathrattles/effects, I would have to play some secret removals to counter mage/Hunter/Rogue, I would have to play boardclears for small minions (rogue), token boards and big boards (res priest/big druid) and many other things I forgot already.
This is something, that Rogue can ignore - he plays face, doesnt care about anything at all, what opponent does and still gets 58% winrate (probably higher, because it is most played class/decks, so it gets lower winrate by meeting a lot of other rogues, which lowers it to 50%).
Again - they need to nerf Rogue to the ground, this is extremely unhealthy to the game and I will probably wait till nerfs to play again ranked, as it is impossible to play against it with fun decks. And it is not fun to play rogue.
Rogues have always had a bad relationship with everyone else, because that's how they are designed. Solo, sneaky, tricky and does whatever they can to win. Blizzard has carefully considered this reputation since WoW and implemented it perfectly into Hearthstone.
Rarely do I recall anyone ever praising a rogue for what they do.
They might accidentally pull mobs in a dungeon because they're behind them (and closer to the next group), or they annoy you in PvP (they either get you or they disappear again).
So, if anything... perfectly designed class identity in HS.
When you put it that way... Yeah that makes sense
Wow, people seem to be really hating rogue. I just had a game against a warlock who ran two oozes and a stickyfinger. Unfornutaley the game designers didn't adress the real problem with aggro rogue which aren't the weapon synergies but Pen Flinger (and to some extent Secret Passage).
If they would nerf those cards, I could peacefully go on playing my midrange Weapon Rogue without all those jerks stealing and removing my weapons.
I would. Please don't think you know all Rogue players, because you have seen some people do nothing but smorc with it.
Ceterum censeo classum magi esse delendam.
Literaly everything is wrong. Ramp druid gets smashed before he can play anycards, pure pala needs to get an insane opening hand or he is dead by turn 5(just like any deck against brainless face rogue)...
But the best fact is talking about a tier 2 deck... So a player that says he is a good player believes in what hsreplay says about the meta....jeje. rogue is literally the most played deck, the fastest deck, the cheapest deck and the deck with higher winrate, he can play 6-7 cards and draw many cards per turn with like 4-5 mana, so it is incredible that someone thinks it is fine...
Pd: nerf wasnt enough, the pinflinger is one of the most toxic cards in this game history and needs to be changed so he can only tarjet minions.
Btw looking at rogue in vicious syndicate (hope I can post the link, if not, sorry for that) - in every rank both aggro and whirlkick are T1 decks, in TOP1k legend they are only T1 decks.
https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/vs-data-reaper-report-191/
https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/drr/vs-power-rankings-data-reaper-report/
So 31% of decks in top 1000 Legend and over double that of the next most prominent deck (and the same as the class as a whole)? I think it needs a buff.
no other class is represented more than once apart from rogue this should tell you everything about how broken it is in standard
I don't like Aggro/OTK Decks in general. I really enjoyed Highlander Rogue in standard though unfortunatly it will be gone soon with the Rotation.
I'm worried that Weapon/Aggro will be the only viable option rogue will be left with in standard after the expansion hits so I might drop the class till they release the next expansion.