sharing a longass video and expecting us to draw any sort of conclusion from it about how it supports this hypothesis is preposterous. If you really want to use a video like that, give timestamps and quotes and context as to how it supports this hypothesis.
Well, the entire video is important actually. It's a very technical and complex subject, either or you watch everything and understand that there many intricate parts that compose the system as a whole or you dont understand anything
sharing a longass video and expecting us to draw any sort of conclusion from it about how it supports this hypothesis is preposterous. If you really want to use a video like that, give timestamps and quotes and context as to how it supports this hypothesis.
Well, the entire video is important actually. It's a very technical and complex subject, either or you watch everything and understand that there many intricate parts that compose the system as a whole or you dont understand anything
Oh yes and once I “understand” it, the hypothesis will suddenly make sense! Great! You realize that’s what ALL conspiracy theories do. They say “this article/video/study PROVES X!!! And if you don’t think so, you just don’t get it!” That’s like flat earthers saying “The bottom of a shoe being flat PROVES the earth is flat!!! It would obviously be round on bottom if the earth was round!”
if you want to go beyond the logic of a conspiracy theorist, you actually have to put in work to show how they correlate.
sharing a longass video and expecting us to draw any sort of conclusion from it about how it supports this hypothesis is preposterous. If you really want to use a video like that, give timestamps and quotes and context as to how it supports this hypothesis.
Well, the entire video is important actually. It's a very technical and complex subject, either or you watch everything and understand that there many intricate parts that compose the system as a whole or you dont understand anything
Oh yes and once I “understand” it, the hypothesis will suddenly make sense! Great! You realize that’s what ALL conspiracy theories do. They say “this article/video/study PROVES X!!! And if you don’t think so, you just don’t get it!” That’s like flat earthers saying “The bottom of a shoe being flat PROVES the earth is flat!!! It would obviously be round on bottom if the earth was round!”
if you want to go beyond the logic of a conspiracy theorist, you actually have to put in work to show how they correlate.
You are the one clinging very hard to simple answers on a complex multilayered statistics and design problem
I'm telling that this stuff is required for the system to work properly, while you are on the "It just works" team
Well there you go:
42:30 starts Q&A and the second question is about fair matches. There is a comment listing all the questions and their time stamps. 33:00 for an explanation on several skill-based matchmakings, graphs included 13:45 Opening explanation on matchmaking, the first 3 slides shows well what it is supposed to do.
Just watch the entire thing already, it is nice regardless.
sharing a longass video and expecting us to draw any sort of conclusion from it about how it supports this hypothesis is preposterous. If you really want to use a video like that, give timestamps and quotes and context as to how it supports this hypothesis.
Well, the entire video is important actually. It's a very technical and complex subject, either or you watch everything and understand that there many intricate parts that compose the system as a whole or you dont understand anything
Oh yes and once I “understand” it, the hypothesis will suddenly make sense! Great! You realize that’s what ALL conspiracy theories do. They say “this article/video/study PROVES X!!! And if you don’t think so, you just don’t get it!” That’s like flat earthers saying “The bottom of a shoe being flat PROVES the earth is flat!!! It would obviously be round on bottom if the earth was round!”
if you want to go beyond the logic of a conspiracy theorist, you actually have to put in work to show how they correlate.
You are the one clinging very hard to simple answers on a complex multilayered statistics and design problem
I'm telling that this stuff is required for the system to work properly, while you are on the "It just works" team
Well there you go:
42:30 starts Q&A and the second question is about fair matches. There is a comment listing all the questions and their time stamps. 33:00 for an explanation on several skill-based matchmakings, graphs included 13:45 Opening explanation on matchmaking, the first 3 slides shows well what it is supposed to do.
Just watch the entire thing already, it is nice regardless.
Again... none of this proves that they are rigging the matchmaking system to match you against certain archetypes. I did watch a good amount of it and it is so generalized and talking about general matchmaking principles that it does not prove anything. Correlation =/= causation, any scientist could tell you this. Assuming other wise makes you a pseudo scientist or conspiracy theorist. I have already stated in MULTIPLE places that I know that the matchmaking system places you against other players of similar skill and win rates. That is not random, it is “rigged” in a way, but that does not even CLOSE to prove that they are doing it specifically for archetypes. To prove that, you need data, not generalized statements about how mmr and matchmaking systems work. Could it be happening? Yes. Is it happening? Hasn’t been proven.
He clearly said that the algorythm needs to predict and choose the winner correctly to be good, in order for this to happen in Hearthstone, decks must be taken in consideration, 50/50 matchup in skill does not translate to a 50/50 game if it is not a perfect mirror match. It is also said somewhere in the video(in the beggining I believe) that you should tune the matchmaking to the needs of your game. And finally it is said that you shouldnt only match player into 50/50 scenarios as it gets stale over time and you should throw the player a multitude of different scenarios.
Here is a fun scenario: Begginer player makes his first competitive deck, however he was unlucky and this deck has a poor matchup against the most popular deck around, if decks arent taken into consideration this guy is gonna have a terrible player experience and probably stop playing. And as it was stated multiple times in the video, you don't want this to happen.
To prove that, you need dat, not generalized statements about how mmr and matchmaking systems work.
I was giving generalized statements because it is a complex subject that not everyone will understand right away if in-depths, however when I went in-depth and brought an expert you called bogus.
He clearly said that the algorythm needs to predict and choose the winner correctly to be good, in order for this to happen in Hearthstone, decks must be taken in consideration, 50/50 matchup in skill does not translate to a 50/50 game if it is not a perfect mirror match. It is also said somewhere in the video(in the beggining I believe) that you should tune the matchmaking to the needs of your game. And finally it is said that you shouldnt only match player into 50/50 scenarios as it gets stale over time and you should throw the player a multitude of different scenarios.
Here is a fun scenario: Begginer player makes his first competitive deck, however he was unlucky and this deck has a poor matchup against the most popular deck around, if decks arent taken into consideration this guy is gonna have a terrible player experience and probably stop playing. And as it was stated multiple times in the video, you don't want this to happen.
To prove that, you need dat, not generalized statements about how mmr and matchmaking systems work.
I was giving generalized statements because it is a complex subject that not everyone will understand right away if in-depths, however when I went in-depth and brought an expert you called bogus.
And again... and again... correlation =/= causation. Just because something could possibly be correlated to another thing, does not make it true. An example. Grass green. Iguanas are green. Does that mean iguanas are made of grass? No. Could they be? Maybe. You have to prove it to be true or false with actual evidence. Just because matching players based on archetypes “could” make for a “more fair” matching system, DOES NOT mean that they are. You can believe that they are, because it has not been proven to be untrue, but it has NOT been proven to be true. To be proven true, you need SPECIFIC DATA. Not CORRELATIVE LOGIC. Making the argument that this guy’s principles of match making apply specifically to hearthstone archetypes is a logical fallacy of equating correlation to causation. He is not on the Hearthstone design team, and he said nothing about hearthstone archetypes. Therefore, to prove it is actually the way hearthstone functions, you need data backing it to prove it.
Look up causal fallacy if you really don’t understand what I’m talking about.
The mmr is very simple why do you kids constantly argue about it? Win 5 in a row the system will match you against a deck with a similar winrate until you lose you basically put yourself into a higher category the more you win. The same goes for losing.. lose 5 in a row you will eventually be matched against a similar opponent.
This is why you can q a net deck and tech against weapon rogue and never see a weapon rogue because that pirate when played will auto-win you the game almost all the time. How stupid would the game be if it matched you against the same deck you could easily win 75% of the time just by drawing the tech card.
Choose a pre-made deck and you will face someone with a similar non-meta jank-ass deck as well until you win enough to get matched against a similar win rate opponent until you lose.
This is why going from 5-legend with no streak stars takes a massive amount of games just because of sheer rng. The better you get at manipulating the rng to give you the best % chance to win is what separates veterans from beginners.
You want to make legend you have to win more than you lose and when winning more matches you against similar opponents you will eventually lose even if you played perfectly because it's a fking card game with rng.
Get over your insecurities and ridiculous assumptions. The game is not rigged its designed that way or else it would be a matter of who had better cards would just make legend no matter how dumb they played.
All the F2P players who think the game is P2W talk like sausages. Q that tier one net deck and all you play against are players in the same tier with the same deck who just play it better than you because they have a 100 games under their belt and you just crafted it. You win by playing the same deck over and over and over...you learn the matchup and how the other decks beat yours. You know what turns are crucial for having the card you need that turn or else your chances of winning are drastically reduced. There is no secret to the game and it doesnt take a very high iq to make legend but rather a lot of time and being able to endure the same boring ass matches over and over again.
If the game eliminated mirror matches everyone would make legend without even trying. Mirror matches are crucial to making legend and are the most rng dependant . Just by learning to beat the mirror match or teching one card that will give you an edge goes a long way.
You got to love the silas steal your giant-ass minion tech card for libram pally matchup. That one wins the game on the spot most of the time against players who dont play around it or really have no other choice because you forced their plays.
you win some you lose some its all the same to me......Lemmy summed up gambling pretty succinctly there. Thats all HS is nothing more nothing less....
I understand what you are talking about, what you seem to fail to understand is that I'm not trying prove that it works that anyway and that it LIKELY works that way, it's impossible to 100% absolutely prove it without looking into the code, even with a bajillion games worth of data it is still just anecdotal evidence.
I understand the gist of discussions and you are using quite a lot of casual fallacies yourself, if you go back and read your posts you realize that you are simply trying to discredit me with these fallacies. You are threading in the "you can't prove god does not exist, therefore it exists" realm
Tackle the subject at hand and prove me otherwise with actual game design arguments and logistics as to why such system is not into the game instead of grass iguanas and red herrings. See you tomorrow.
I understand what you are talking about, what you seem to fail to understand is that I'm not trying prove that it works that anyway and that it LIKELY works that way, it's impossible to 100% absolutely prove it without looking into the code, even with a bajillion games worth of data it is still just anecdotal evidence.
I understand the gist of discussions and you are using quite a lot of casual fallacies yourself, if you go back and read your posts you realize that you are simply trying to discredit me with these fallacies. You are threading in the "you can't prove god does not exist, therefore it exists" realm
Tackle the subject at hand and prove me otherwise with actual game design arguments and logistics as to why such system is not into the game instead of grass iguanas and red herrings. See you tomorrow.
The burden of proof goes to the accuser. I do not work for blizzard, I do not have to prove anything. If you want to prove that you are right, that's on you. And I'm not asking for "a bajillion games" If you had even 1000 games that proved this hypothesis, it would be quite credible, and beyond anecdotal evidence of 30-50 games.
As for the "you can't prove god doesn't exist, therefore it exists." statement, it's quite literally the opposite of that analogy. I am saying you can't prove it exists. No therefore needed. Except in this case, I never even said you can't prove match making rigging isn't happen. It is definitely possible to prove it with enough data. It is definitely possible Blizzard gathers archetype information. However, it is not my job to prove that, it is the job of the person who accuses that such is the case. If you wanted to prove that god existed, it would be the job of the person who claimed that he existed to do so. SO no, you are literally taking my argument the opposite of what it actually means, another fallacy.
I understand what you are talking about, what you seem to fail to understand is that I'm not trying prove that it works that anyway and that it LIKELY works that way, it's impossible to 100% absolutely prove it without looking into the code, even with a bajillion games worth of data it is still just anecdotal evidence.
I understand the gist of discussions and you are using quite a lot of casual fallacies yourself, if you go back and read your posts you realize that you are simply trying to discredit me with these fallacies. You are threading in the "you can't prove god does not exist, therefore it exists" realm
Tackle the subject at hand and prove me otherwise with actual game design arguments and logistics as to why such system is not into the game instead of grass iguanas and red herrings. See you tomorrow.
The burden of proof goes to the accuser. I do not work for blizzard, I do not have to prove anything. If you want to prove that you are right, that's on you. And I'm not asking for "a bajillion games" If you had even 1000 games that proved this hypothesis, it would be quite credible, and beyond anecdotal evidence of 30-50 games.
As for the "you can't prove god doesn't exist, therefore it exists." statement, it's quite literally the opposite of that analogy. I am saying you can't prove it exists. No therefore needed. Except in this case, I never even said you can't prove match making rigging isn't happen. It is definitely possible to prove it with enough data. It is definitely possible Blizzard gathers archetype information. However, it is not my job to prove that, it is the job of the person who accuses that such is the case. If you wanted to prove that god existed, it would be the job of the person who claimed that he existed to do so. SO no, you are literally taking my argument the opposite of what it actually means, another fallacy.
The only thing I can prove is the 24k plus games I have won during the time I have played starting with closed beta until now. I stand by what I say and pretty much just laugh at stuff like this. Argumentum ad ignorantiam doesn't apply to the question of HS either way because it's a logical fallacy that works both ways. I don't see how a logical fallacy would apply to anything here. Let's suppose that rigged matchmaking exists how would this work and who would benefit from the rigging of matches?
The only people who think matching is "rigged" are people incapable of logical reasoning, to begin with. I get a kick out of the whole argument between kids who don't understand why they can't get that legend cardback simply by crafting a tier one deck. You certainly have a lot to learn and HS is the least of your problems.
I enjoy ranking to D5 now that it was pretty much given to everyone with the ladder climb nerfs so long ago. I had a legend cardback 7 years ago when it was actually difficult. I've done it numerous times since then without much effort other than playing a high winrate deck and focusing on mirror matchups with or without tech cards based on how that tech card affects the deck overall. I rig the game myself by trying to play in a way to give me the best dice roll possible to make winning happen more often than losing. The game is really that simple. When you understand this concept making legend now is truly a joke.
The last time I did it for fun was on New Year's day. I left my rank at D1 1 star and sat down one hour before the season ended. I made legend when the last Big Priest I qued into decided to concede .....I laughed and still laugh at that. Yeah, the game is rigged....lmao
aaaaaaand predictably once again, the video that purports to support the rigging theory doesn't in the least.
Yes, I watched it all. Yes, I understand it. No, it doesn't require or even suggest any of the crap in this thred.
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Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Blizzard fanboys are definitely the most visceral and obsessed in the world. Always at the service of their masters whatever happens.
It is incredible that even giving you the evidence and facts that show that this game is rigged, you continue to support and defend a company as greedy and immoral as Blizzard.
Anyway, there is no more blind than the one who does not want to see. With fanboys like you, it's no wonder that every day Blizzard gets richer and richer while its games get more and more disastrous as they put less and less effort into them.
There is almost certainly something going on behind the scenes, and I wouldn't put it past them to try and slow down insane winstreaks and such. Without getting too tinfoil-hatt'y, you could even argue that the game matches you against people who use cards that you don't own in an attempt to get you to buy more packs. I've personally had too many bizarre matchups or faced the same, unpopular counter deck multiple times in a row to not believe it myself.
That being said, unless someone has been tracking hundreds and hundreds of games with certain decks, we don't have anything besides anecdotal evidence.
Why would they slow down insane win-streaks? MMR, ranking and the nature of the game will do that for you without any help. Blizzard themselves even posted the longest win-streak recorded at some point, with no shame.
I have sayd this so many times, but I have to say it again:
If the matchmaking is in any way based on your deck, your golden cards, if you recently bought packs, artificially punishing win-streaks or anything else which is not officially stated, there are MORE THAN ENOUGH games recorded to prove it with absolute certainty. The community went through the trouble of proving the legendary pity-timer, which took 1000s of cases.
The problem is, the rigged-advocates are too lazy bothering with that. I can't take any of it seriously before they do.
You are right, there is a blizzard employee assigned to every player. They watch you 24/7 to see what changes you make to your decks and decipher what you are trying to counter. Then they create a deck to counter you and make a new account to match up against you. This is an immoral practice to force pack purchases, blizzard needs to be held accountable!
I’m not sure you realise how stupid your post really is... you are either too naive or trying to play it clever and failing, spectacularly...!
matchmaking is a joke, we all know it. The OP is right, Rock Paper Scissors with the algorithm managing the rest
You are right, there is a blizzard employee assigned to every player. They watch you 24/7 to see what changes you make to your decks and decipher what you are trying to counter. Then they create a deck to counter you and make a new account to match up against you. This is an immoral practice to force pack purchases, blizzard needs to be held accountable!
I’m not sure you realise how stupid your post really is... you are either too naive or trying to play it clever and failing, spectacularly...!
matchmaking is a joke, we all know it. The OP is right, Rock Paper Scissors with the algorithm managing the rest
"We all know it" is not an argument, and is only supported by anecdotal evidence and speculation.
What we all know is that choosing and teching your deck correctly is a very important part of winning in this game, all up to the pro level. However, you need more games to make it have an impact than the "rigged" gang has patience to record.
Blizzard fanboys are definitely the most visceral and obsessed in the world. Always at the service of their masters whatever happens.
It is incredible that even giving you the evidence and facts that show that this game is rigged, you continue to support and defend a company as greedy and immoral as Blizzard.
Anyway, there is no more blind than the one who does not want to see. With fanboys like you, it's no wonder that every day Blizzard gets richer and richer while its games get more and more disastrous as they put less and less effort into them.
Says the guy who relies on other people's arguments?
I could go point by point, but no one bothered to address the other video's critique, so it's clearly wasted time. If 90 seconds is too much to read, I can only imagine the TL;DR comments on the post tearing that video apart.
EDIT: One free pre-release bundle to anyone who quotes anything from this thread involving me "defending Blizzard". Pointing out people who don't know what they're talking about doesn't have anything to do with Blizzard. I'll wait though.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
What are we even arguing about at this point? Are we arguing that Blizzard use techniques outside of MMR to decide matchups or are we arguing something else now, I’ve sort of lost track.
I haven’t watched the latest video with Josh Menke yet but for anybody who has, what are the main points that are applicable to HS?
Removing the emotion out of it, understanding exactly what each person is trying to claim would be a start.
EDIT: One free pre-release bundle to anyone who quotes anything from this thread involving me "defending Blizzard". Pointing out people who don't know what they're talking about doesn't have anything to do with Blizzard. I'll wait though.
now i want to try to find this. On a serious note i play a bunch of card games and experiment a lot of this "cases of the ladder being rigged" in every single one. That means that every card game ladder system is rigged? People is really crazy sometimes. I totally agree with you. Even if people feel like that "when they change the deck ladder changes" the true is that the observation of ay experiment changes the outcome. If you stick with one deck on ladder and you keep matching you wont notice when you go into different decks that often. But if you change your deck and you start to belive that now you will get more favored against the stuff you are mathing against you will notce if the next match is different and you will belive that the Matchmaking is rigged. That´s just perception.
People should stop comparing their personal perception with facts.
What are we even arguing about at this point? Are we arguing that Blizzard use techniques outside of MMR to decide matchups or are we arguing something else now, I’ve sort of lost track.
I haven’t watched the latest video with Josh Menke yet but for anybody who has, what are the main points that are applicable to HS?
Removing the emotion out of it, understanding exactly what each person is trying to claim would be a start.
Good questions! I think half of the debate is about people arguing weather they "defend blizzard" or not and if their previous statements mean that they actually believe MM is rikked or not.
What I got from watching most of the video is that he pretty much just explains how you plan good MM and make sure that the least people feel that they are wasting time on bad match-ups. He talks mainly about skill and how to implement an estimate in MM and how team games and different game modes make it harder. Maybe I missed something in the Q & A where he says "we actually don't care about skill, only about messing with peoples builds", but he does mention how you can use MM to prevent powerful new weapons/cards/characters from ruining the game for new players
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Well, the entire video is important actually. It's a very technical and complex subject, either or you watch everything and understand that there many intricate parts that compose the system as a whole or you dont understand anything
What an utterly dumb comment from somebody who clearly doesn't understand what algorithms mean.
Oh yes and once I “understand” it, the hypothesis will suddenly make sense! Great! You realize that’s what ALL conspiracy theories do. They say “this article/video/study PROVES X!!! And if you don’t think so, you just don’t get it!” That’s like flat earthers saying “The bottom of a shoe being flat PROVES the earth is flat!!! It would obviously be round on bottom if the earth was round!”
if you want to go beyond the logic of a conspiracy theorist, you actually have to put in work to show how they correlate.
You are the one clinging very hard to simple answers on a complex multilayered statistics and design problem
I'm telling that this stuff is required for the system to work properly, while you are on the "It just works" team
Well there you go:
42:30 starts Q&A and the second question is about fair matches. There is a comment listing all the questions and their time stamps.
33:00 for an explanation on several skill-based matchmakings, graphs included
13:45 Opening explanation on matchmaking, the first 3 slides shows well what it is supposed to do.
Just watch the entire thing already, it is nice regardless.
Again... none of this proves that they are rigging the matchmaking system to match you against certain archetypes. I did watch a good amount of it and it is so generalized and talking about general matchmaking principles that it does not prove anything. Correlation =/= causation, any scientist could tell you this. Assuming other wise makes you a pseudo scientist or conspiracy theorist. I have already stated in MULTIPLE places that I know that the matchmaking system places you against other players of similar skill and win rates. That is not random, it is “rigged” in a way, but that does not even CLOSE to prove that they are doing it specifically for archetypes. To prove that, you need data, not generalized statements about how mmr and matchmaking systems work. Could it be happening? Yes. Is it happening? Hasn’t been proven.
He clearly said that the algorythm needs to predict and choose the winner correctly to be good, in order for this to happen in Hearthstone, decks must be taken in consideration, 50/50 matchup in skill does not translate to a 50/50 game if it is not a perfect mirror match. It is also said somewhere in the video(in the beggining I believe) that you should tune the matchmaking to the needs of your game. And finally it is said that you shouldnt only match player into 50/50 scenarios as it gets stale over time and you should throw the player a multitude of different scenarios.
Here is a fun scenario: Begginer player makes his first competitive deck, however he was unlucky and this deck has a poor matchup against the most popular deck around, if decks arent taken into consideration this guy is gonna have a terrible player experience and probably stop playing. And as it was stated multiple times in the video, you don't want this to happen.
I was giving generalized statements because it is a complex subject that not everyone will understand right away if in-depths, however when I went in-depth and brought an expert you called bogus.
And again... and again... correlation =/= causation. Just because something could possibly be correlated to another thing, does not make it true. An example. Grass green. Iguanas are green. Does that mean iguanas are made of grass? No. Could they be? Maybe. You have to prove it to be true or false with actual evidence. Just because matching players based on archetypes “could” make for a “more fair” matching system, DOES NOT mean that they are. You can believe that they are, because it has not been proven to be untrue, but it has NOT been proven to be true. To be proven true, you need SPECIFIC DATA. Not CORRELATIVE LOGIC. Making the argument that this guy’s principles of match making apply specifically to hearthstone archetypes is a logical fallacy of equating correlation to causation. He is not on the Hearthstone design team, and he said nothing about hearthstone archetypes. Therefore, to prove it is actually the way hearthstone functions, you need data backing it to prove it.
Look up causal fallacy if you really don’t understand what I’m talking about.
The mmr is very simple why do you kids constantly argue about it? Win 5 in a row the system will match you against a deck with a similar winrate until you lose you basically put yourself into a higher category the more you win. The same goes for losing.. lose 5 in a row you will eventually be matched against a similar opponent.
This is why you can q a net deck and tech against weapon rogue and never see a weapon rogue because that pirate when played will auto-win you the game almost all the time. How stupid would the game be if it matched you against the same deck you could easily win 75% of the time just by drawing the tech card.
Choose a pre-made deck and you will face someone with a similar non-meta jank-ass deck as well until you win enough to get matched against a similar win rate opponent until you lose.
This is why going from 5-legend with no streak stars takes a massive amount of games just because of sheer rng. The better you get at manipulating the rng to give you the best % chance to win is what separates veterans from beginners.
You want to make legend you have to win more than you lose and when winning more matches you against similar opponents you will eventually lose even if you played perfectly because it's a fking card game with rng.
Get over your insecurities and ridiculous assumptions. The game is not rigged its designed that way or else it would be a matter of who had better cards would just make legend no matter how dumb they played.
All the F2P players who think the game is P2W talk like sausages. Q that tier one net deck and all you play against are players in the same tier with the same deck who just play it better than you because they have a 100 games under their belt and you just crafted it. You win by playing the same deck over and over and over...you learn the matchup and how the other decks beat yours. You know what turns are crucial for having the card you need that turn or else your chances of winning are drastically reduced. There is no secret to the game and it doesnt take a very high iq to make legend but rather a lot of time and being able to endure the same boring ass matches over and over again.
If the game eliminated mirror matches everyone would make legend without even trying. Mirror matches are crucial to making legend and are the most rng dependant . Just by learning to beat the mirror match or teching one card that will give you an edge goes a long way.
You got to love the silas steal your giant-ass minion tech card for libram pally matchup. That one wins the game on the spot most of the time against players who dont play around it or really have no other choice because you forced their plays.
you win some you lose some its all the same to me......Lemmy summed up gambling pretty succinctly there. Thats all HS is nothing more nothing less....
I understand what you are talking about, what you seem to fail to understand is that I'm not trying prove that it works that anyway and that it LIKELY works that way, it's impossible to 100% absolutely prove it without looking into the code, even with a bajillion games worth of data it is still just anecdotal evidence.
I understand the gist of discussions and you are using quite a lot of casual fallacies yourself, if you go back and read your posts you realize that you are simply trying to discredit me with these fallacies. You are threading in the "you can't prove god does not exist, therefore it exists" realm
Tackle the subject at hand and prove me otherwise with actual game design arguments and logistics as to why such system is not into the game instead of grass iguanas and red herrings. See you tomorrow.
The burden of proof goes to the accuser. I do not work for blizzard, I do not have to prove anything. If you want to prove that you are right, that's on you. And I'm not asking for "a bajillion games" If you had even 1000 games that proved this hypothesis, it would be quite credible, and beyond anecdotal evidence of 30-50 games.
As for the "you can't prove god doesn't exist, therefore it exists." statement, it's quite literally the opposite of that analogy. I am saying you can't prove it exists. No therefore needed. Except in this case, I never even said you can't prove match making rigging isn't happen. It is definitely possible to prove it with enough data. It is definitely possible Blizzard gathers archetype information. However, it is not my job to prove that, it is the job of the person who accuses that such is the case. If you wanted to prove that god existed, it would be the job of the person who claimed that he existed to do so. SO no, you are literally taking my argument the opposite of what it actually means, another fallacy.
The only thing I can prove is the 24k plus games I have won during the time I have played starting with closed beta until now. I stand by what I say and pretty much just laugh at stuff like this. Argumentum ad ignorantiam doesn't apply to the question of HS either way because it's a logical fallacy that works both ways. I don't see how a logical fallacy would apply to anything here. Let's suppose that rigged matchmaking exists how would this work and who would benefit from the rigging of matches?
The only people who think matching is "rigged" are people incapable of logical reasoning, to begin with. I get a kick out of the whole argument between kids who don't understand why they can't get that legend cardback simply by crafting a tier one deck. You certainly have a lot to learn and HS is the least of your problems.
I enjoy ranking to D5 now that it was pretty much given to everyone with the ladder climb nerfs so long ago. I had a legend cardback 7 years ago when it was actually difficult. I've done it numerous times since then without much effort other than playing a high winrate deck and focusing on mirror matchups with or without tech cards based on how that tech card affects the deck overall. I rig the game myself by trying to play in a way to give me the best dice roll possible to make winning happen more often than losing. The game is really that simple. When you understand this concept making legend now is truly a joke.
The last time I did it for fun was on New Year's day. I left my rank at D1 1 star and sat down one hour before the season ended. I made legend when the last Big Priest I qued into decided to concede .....I laughed and still laugh at that. Yeah, the game is rigged....lmao
aaaaaaand predictably once again, the video that purports to support the rigging theory doesn't in the least.
Yes, I watched it all. Yes, I understand it. No, it doesn't require or even suggest any of the crap in this thred.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Blizzard fanboys are definitely the most visceral and obsessed in the world. Always at the service of their masters whatever happens.
It is incredible that even giving you the evidence and facts that show that this game is rigged, you continue to support and defend a company as greedy and immoral as Blizzard.
Anyway, there is no more blind than the one who does not want to see. With fanboys like you, it's no wonder that every day Blizzard gets richer and richer while its games get more and more disastrous as they put less and less effort into them.
Why would they slow down insane win-streaks? MMR, ranking and the nature of the game will do that for you without any help. Blizzard themselves even posted the longest win-streak recorded at some point, with no shame.
I have sayd this so many times, but I have to say it again:
If the matchmaking is in any way based on your deck, your golden cards, if you recently bought packs, artificially punishing win-streaks or anything else which is not officially stated, there are MORE THAN ENOUGH games recorded to prove it with absolute certainty. The community went through the trouble of proving the legendary pity-timer, which took 1000s of cases.
The problem is, the rigged-advocates are too lazy bothering with that. I can't take any of it seriously before they do.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
I’m not sure you realise how stupid your post really is... you are either too naive or trying to play it clever and failing, spectacularly...!
matchmaking is a joke, we all know it. The OP is right, Rock Paper Scissors with the algorithm managing the rest
"We all know it" is not an argument, and is only supported by anecdotal evidence and speculation.
What we all know is that choosing and teching your deck correctly is a very important part of winning in this game, all up to the pro level. However, you need more games to make it have an impact than the "rigged" gang has patience to record.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
Says the guy who relies on other people's arguments?
I could go point by point, but no one bothered to address the other video's critique, so it's clearly wasted time. If 90 seconds is too much to read, I can only imagine the TL;DR comments on the post tearing that video apart.
EDIT: One free pre-release bundle to anyone who quotes anything from this thread involving me "defending Blizzard". Pointing out people who don't know what they're talking about doesn't have anything to do with Blizzard. I'll wait though.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
What are we even arguing about at this point? Are we arguing that Blizzard use techniques outside of MMR to decide matchups or are we arguing something else now, I’ve sort of lost track.
I haven’t watched the latest video with Josh Menke yet but for anybody who has, what are the main points that are applicable to HS?
Removing the emotion out of it, understanding exactly what each person is trying to claim would be a start.
now i want to try to find this. On a serious note i play a bunch of card games and experiment a lot of this "cases of the ladder being rigged" in every single one. That means that every card game ladder system is rigged? People is really crazy sometimes. I totally agree with you. Even if people feel like that "when they change the deck ladder changes" the true is that the observation of ay experiment changes the outcome. If you stick with one deck on ladder and you keep matching you wont notice when you go into different decks that often. But if you change your deck and you start to belive that now you will get more favored against the stuff you are mathing against you will notce if the next match is different and you will belive that the Matchmaking is rigged. That´s just perception.
People should stop comparing their personal perception with facts.
Good questions! I think half of the debate is about people arguing weather they "defend blizzard" or not and if their previous statements mean that they actually believe MM is rikked or not.
What I got from watching most of the video is that he pretty much just explains how you plan good MM and make sure that the least people feel that they are wasting time on bad match-ups. He talks mainly about skill and how to implement an estimate in MM and how team games and different game modes make it harder. Maybe I missed something in the Q & A where he says "we actually don't care about skill, only about messing with peoples builds", but he does mention how you can use MM to prevent powerful new weapons/cards/characters from ruining the game for new players