Discovering a high cost high impact card from a cheap discover and playing on the same turn is just pure dumb luck, literally a coin flip to decide who wins the game.
But it's not. You play the card, there's a pool of potential cards you can get, you get three choices, one of those POTENTIALLY helps you win the game.
And if you wanna increase the cost of discover, let's increase the cost of card draw and burn and AoE while we're at it. They help you win games.
I get that it's something you don't like, but I don't think you've proven it's actually a problem for the game.
Discovering a high cost high impact card from a cheap discover and playing on the same turn is just pure dumb luck, literally a coin flip to decide who wins the game.
But it's not. You play the card, there's a pool of potential cards you can get, you get three choices, one of those POTENTIALLY helps you win the game.
And if you wanna increase the cost of discover, let's increase the cost of card draw and burn and AoE while we're at it. They help you win games.
I get that it's something you don't like, but I don't think you've proven it's actually a problem for the game.
Sure, Lets see some good and bad examples, maybe that will help:
MT is the example I used in the op, the mana cost restriction gives it low impact choices, but since the card pool is smaller the choices are more consistent, great card. Zephrys has the most powerful discover effect in the entire game, but requires you to pay a heavy deckbuilding price in order to activate it whenever you want so its balanced, great card (when the AI decides to work lol). Marshspawn has great stats for the cost (no pun intended), great effect with high impact potential but has a gameplay requirement so its balanced, great card.
All 03 cards have zero relevant requirements in order to use them, are very cheap and give you access to high impact stuff, with potential to win games by themselves. Instant auto-includes in most decks.
Do you see the difference? I don't mind losing a game to Zephrys, cuz I know that player paid a heavy price for that game-winning effect, he deserved it. The same cant be said when the Rogue/Mage highrolled WT and played board freezes/burn in the same turn, or when the Priest gets a high-cost board clear from Renew and played it in the same turn. Too much potential impact for virtually no cost at all.
I think it all comes down to poorly defined archetypes. In a balanced game, you Should either be able to put a lot of big threats in your deck and out-value your opponent or you try to play on curve and grab the tempo, but you should not be able to do both. But now with cards like Wand Thief, lackeys, and primes, you can play on curve and never run out of steam. This becomes even more of a problem because card draw/generation has become way too efficient with cards like Sayge, Seer of Darkmoon or Secret Passage. It used to be that in order to generate card advantage with cards like Sprint you actually had to give up tempo, but not any more, which makes the whole concept of card advantage pretty meaningless. Even when Playing against Aggro decks like Aggro DH you usually win by playing a wall of taunts, not running them out of steam. I was happy when Divine Favor was sent away, but then they just print a card like Voracious Reader. Compare that card to Arcane Intellect or Gnomish Inventor, some actual balanced Card draw.
Discovering a high cost high impact card from a cheap discover and playing on the same turn is just pure dumb luck, literally a coin flip to decide who wins the game.
But it's not. You play the card, there's a pool of potential cards you can get, you get three choices, one of those POTENTIALLY helps you win the game.
And if you wanna increase the cost of discover, let's increase the cost of card draw and burn and AoE while we're at it. They help you win games.
I get that it's something you don't like, but I don't think you've proven it's actually a problem for the game.
Sure, Lets see some good and bad examples, maybe that will help:
MT is the example I used in the op, the mana cost restriction gives it low impact choices, but since the card pool is smaller the choices are more consistent, great card. Zephrys has the most powerful discover effect in the entire game, but requires you to pay a heavy deckbuilding price in order to activate it whenever you want so its balanced, great card (when the AI decides to work lol). Marshspawn has great stats for the cost (no pun intended), great effect with high impact potential but has a gameplay requirement so its balanced, great card.
All 03 cards have zero relevant requirements in order to use them, are very cheap and give you access to high impact stuff, with potential to win games by themselves. Instant auto-includes in most decks.
Do you see the difference? I don't mind losing a game to Zephrys, cuz I know that player paid a heavy price for that game-winning effect, he deserved it. The same cant be said when the Rogue/Mage highrolled WT and played board freezes/burn in the same turn, or when the Priest gets a high-cost board clear from Renew and played it in the same turn. Too much potential impact for virtually no cost at all.
I don't think those are bad examples at all, I think those are solid examples of what discover should be. (And Discover is Priest's primary way of resource generation anyway)
Bad examples are like Dragon's Hoard, or Thoughtsteal, cards which are not very consistent and give you access to cards from literally any card pool even non-class ones. Not Renew (a low impact 1 cost spell).
All three of those examples gives the player access to cards he would have access to in his deck anyway. And in some ways Magic Trick is worse because it's even more consistent and gives you a better chance of getting something cheap (which some mage decks want for mana cyclone synergy).
If it's any comfort, I think a big part of the reason Blizzard is introducing spell schools like Fire and Holy to the game is so they can print cards that say "add a random card from this school to your hand", which is a constrained enough pool that you can reasonably play around the different possibilities, unlike with Babbling Book. When you see your opponent get a random Fire spell, you know that it's almost certainly either removal, a board clear, or burst, but NOT anything that can create or buff minions, nor anything that can stall for time. In contrast, Holy has plenty of heals, some buffs, and some small amount of removal, but no burst.
Wand Thief and Renew require nothing, costs you nothing, and can have a super high impact on the game with no real drawback, that seems pretty unbalanced to me. Magic Trick should be the benchmark for all future discover effects imo.
@KinkyjohnFowler Which cards are we talking about besides Wand Thief? I really don't think Renew or Palm Reading are as bad as all that. Athletic Studies has a pretty high success rate for getting good cards (but again, that's a card pool issue). Most of the other studies cards are fine.
The power level of cards is completely off it’s tits across the board, so I would have a hard time trying to argue that the discover cards are OP, or need a nerf. I mean Soulciologist Malicia is a 7-mana 5/5 that summons 18/18 worth of stats with rush.
I cannot imaging building a control Priest list without Renew and/or Palm Reading however, the deck would be far less consistent.
My issue with Discover isn’t the power level (that is an issue, but like I say that is an issue that effects far too many cards at the minute), I just dislike how they extend the tools of almost every deck (decided by a dice roll). I also hate the majority (not all) of RNG outside of the initial shuffling of the deck, for reasons that have been covered in this thread by others.
With something like Renew it isn’t that discovering a 10-Mana card with a 1-Mana card is a problem, or playing the discovered card the same turn is a problem, it’s that the card can be used at any stage in the game to find an answer for any question. I just hate playing against it personally. When Raven Idol was printed Druids suddenly had hard removal, something their class is meant to be bad at. Rogue can flip a coin with Wand Thief to clear a full board, something they aren’t meant to be able to easily do. This is seen as acceptable because the inherent randomness of Discover keeps things in check to a degree, again I just don’t find that a fun or interesting way to balance the game, it’s frustrating to play against and unrewarding to play, for me anyway.
Just to add a quick point from another topic as I mentioned Soulciologist Malicia, Blizzard seem to think it’s fine to completely break cards if they’re designed to fit a certain deck. So with Malicia she is completely unplayable outside of a deck which runs the soul fragment package, however if you do run the package she is completely bonkers. These kind of effects used to be limited to decks with severe restrictions, like Highlander decks, however now the requirement for insane minions seems to just be anything. “Put a few bombs in your opponent’s deck to summon Dr Boom on steriods” is another one.
Discovering a high cost high impact card from a cheap discover and playing on the same turn is just pure dumb luck, literally a coin flip to decide who wins the game.
And if you wanna increase the cost of discover, let's increase the cost of card draw and burn and AoE while we're at it. They help you win games.
These things absolutely should be looked at too. Card draw at the minute is absurd. Even aggro decks are going to fatigue and winning games regularly. Warlock, Shaman, Warrior and Priest can obliterate everything you put down with cheap and effective removal. Just about every aspect of their card design needs looking at tbh,
I don't think those are bad examples at all, I think those are solid examples of what discover should be. (And Discover is Priest's primary way of resource generation anyway)
Bad examples are like Dragon's Hoard, or Thoughtsteal, cards which are not very consistent and give you access to cards from literally any card pool even non-class ones. Not Renew (a low impact 1 cost spell).
All three of those examples gives the player access to cards he would have access to in his deck anyway. And in some ways Magic Trick is worse because it's even more consistent and gives you a better chance of getting something cheap (which some mage decks want for mana cyclone synergy).
I lost WAY too many games to priest discovering the perfect answer off Renew bro, saying its a low impact 1-mana spell is just false.
I already explained why some discover effects are much stronger than adding high cost high impact cards to your deck in a previous post earlier (flexibility and lower deckbuilding cost), look it up if you want more details. Its fine if you like discover, I like it too, but dont fool yourself thinking the way its been used rn is healthy for the game, it became a victim of powercreep just like many other aspects, some you even mentioned.
If it's any comfort, I think a big part of the reason Blizzard is introducing spell schools like Fire and Holy to the game is so they can print cards that say "add a random card from this school to your hand", which is a constrained enough pool that you can reasonably play around the different possibilities, unlike with Babbling Book. When you see your opponent get a random Fire spell, you know that it's almost certainly either removal, a board clear, or burst, but NOT anything that can create or buff minions, nor anything that can stall for time. In contrast, Holy has plenty of heals, some buffs, and some small amount of removal, but no burst.
True! That can be a nice way to tone down the potential impact of discover, I like the idea of spell schools in general, brings more design space for interactions.
Just to add a quick point from another topic as I mentioned Soulciologist Malicia, Blizzard seem to think it’s fine to completely break cards if they’re designed to fit a certain deck. So with Malicia she is completely unplayable outside of a deck which runs the soul fragment package, however if you do run the package she is completely bonkers. These kind of effects used to be limited to decks with severe restrictions, like Highlander decks, however now the requirement for insane minions seems to just be anything. “Put a few bombs in your opponent’s deck to summon Dr Boom on steriods” is another one.
Thats cuz there are other costs you can force the player to pay besides just mana. Malicia has a deckbuilding AND gameplay cost: you must include SF cards in your deck, play them b4 Malicia, NOT draw them before you play her, then pay 7 mana. Shes very strong, but the various costs you must pay to make her strong are enough to balance her. Same thing with Blastmaster, only you have to pray they dont draw the bombs b4 you play him instead.
I don't think those are bad examples at all, I think those are solid examples of what discover should be. (And Discover is Priest's primary way of resource generation anyway)
Bad examples are like Dragon's Hoard, or Thoughtsteal, cards which are not very consistent and give you access to cards from literally any card pool even non-class ones. Not Renew (a low impact 1 cost spell).
All three of those examples gives the player access to cards he would have access to in his deck anyway. And in some ways Magic Trick is worse because it's even more consistent and gives you a better chance of getting something cheap (which some mage decks want for mana cyclone synergy).
I lost WAY too many games to priest discovering the perfect answer off Renew bro, saying its a low impact 1-mana spell is just false.
I already explained why some discover effects are much stronger than adding high cost high impact cards to your deck in a previous post earlier (flexibility and lower deckbuilding cost), look it up if you want more details. Its fine if you like discover, I like it too, but dont fool yourself thinking the way its been used rn is healthy for the game, it became a victim of powercreep just like many other aspects, some you even mentioned.
And there are ways in which it's weaker as a rule. Though priest is a special case. One thing about priest from last year, is that priests' card pool was INCREDIBLY consistent; every card was like a 3-5 star card in terms of power and none of them really relied on synergy. This was done as a sort of attempt to build priest AROUND the discover mechanic. So instead of having draw like mage or warlock, priest would discover their outs and their resources through cards like Renew, Galakrond, Sethekk Veilweaver, etc. I think they went back on this during Darkmoon Faire a bit, but I think primarily that's still the case.
I think MAYBE renew could be a higher cost spell that does something a little more impactful. (Like maybe a 3 mana Divine Hymn-style card with "Discover a spell" attached instead.) Then it's not quite so efficient as a "discover an out" card. But I don't think it's necessarily a problem as is.
Yeah Discover, infinite value generation and so on are very tiresome. I used to be a player heavily into control and value and absolutely despising aggro decks to now finding myself increasingly preferring aggro decks just to avoid the tedium of infinite value.
It would be nice if Blizz did an experiment to greatly reduce RNG and infinite value. They can't do it this year and probably not the next either but if they wanted to in two years they could make it so no new Discover cards were added or heavily limited ones only. Coupled with general reduction in RNG and value generation, RNG being only very limited in range, to make a far more consistent game.
I have noticed the same dysfunction of this mechanic by my self, and i disagree with the nerf of High Abbess Alura in the same time of boosting the damage generation of rogue's and dh's cards, in the end the results are the same to the fact of a stable class meta.
I mean you could add counter points to what he said?
Bad cards being in the card pool do make cards like Jandice and Wand Maker less effective, and so a tighter core set with less bad cards makes these cards even better, do you disagree?
I mean you could add counter points to what he said?
Bad cards being in the card pool do make cards like Jandice and Wand Maker less effective, and so a tighter core set with less bad cards makes these cards even better, do you disagree?
In the case of jandice you don't necessarily need bad cards, you just need good battlecry minions with low stats.
Bad cards existing purely to decrease the power level of RNG is bad design imo, they just need to balance RNG generators more properly.
If Jandice becomes too much of a problem then nerf her to 6 mana and revert the nerf when she rotates out, no need to put Stormpike Commando in the pool.
I mean you could add counter points to what he said?
Bad cards being in the card pool do make cards like Jandice and Wand Maker less effective, and so a tighter core set with less bad cards makes these cards even better, do you disagree?
Bad cards existing purely to decrease the power level of RNG is bad design imo, they just need to balance RNG generators more properly.
Yeah I agree with this completely. If Blizzard curb the high variance RNG I would be pleasantly suprised.
I mean you could add counter points to what he said?
Bad cards being in the card pool do make cards like Jandice and Wand Maker less effective, and so a tighter core set with less bad cards makes these cards even better, do you disagree?
He can't he just calls names because he has no counter arguments.
I mean you could add counter points to what he said?
Bad cards being in the card pool do make cards like Jandice and Wand Maker less effective, and so a tighter core set with less bad cards makes these cards even better, do you disagree?
In the case of jandice you don't necessarily need bad cards, you just need good battlecry minions with low stats.
Bad cards existing purely to decrease the power level of RNG is bad design imo, they just need to balance RNG generators more properly.
If Jandice becomes too much of a problem then nerf her to 6 mana and revert the nerf when she rotates out, no need to put Stormpike Commando in the pool.
Doesnt matter, if there are less bad options the chances of getting highrolls increase, period.
Im holding my pitchforks on this subject cuz we didnt see the Barrens set yet, but unless they introduce a TON of crappy 5 drops and 1 mana spells, these cards will get out of control fast.
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But it's not. You play the card, there's a pool of potential cards you can get, you get three choices, one of those POTENTIALLY helps you win the game.
And if you wanna increase the cost of discover, let's increase the cost of card draw and burn and AoE while we're at it. They help you win games.
I get that it's something you don't like, but I don't think you've proven it's actually a problem for the game.
As many have said, discover is fine, under the premise that
(1) - it comes with a loss of tempo and (2) - limitation in what it can generate.
Today, discover (perhaps because of powercreep) does not feel like loss of tempo. And it's pool for what can be generated, is too wide.
Sure, Lets see some good and bad examples, maybe that will help:
Great design in discover effects: Magic Trick, Zephrys the Great, Marshspawn;
MT is the example I used in the op, the mana cost restriction gives it low impact choices, but since the card pool is smaller the choices are more consistent, great card. Zephrys has the most powerful discover effect in the entire game, but requires you to pay a heavy deckbuilding price in order to activate it whenever you want so its balanced, great card (when the AI decides to work lol). Marshspawn has great stats for the cost (no pun intended), great effect with high impact potential but has a gameplay requirement so its balanced, great card.
Bad design in discover effects: Wand Thief, Renew, Primordial Glyph;
All 03 cards have zero relevant requirements in order to use them, are very cheap and give you access to high impact stuff, with potential to win games by themselves. Instant auto-includes in most decks.
Do you see the difference? I don't mind losing a game to Zephrys, cuz I know that player paid a heavy price for that game-winning effect, he deserved it. The same cant be said when the Rogue/Mage highrolled WT and played board freezes/burn in the same turn, or when the Priest gets a high-cost board clear from Renew and played it in the same turn. Too much potential impact for virtually no cost at all.
I think it all comes down to poorly defined archetypes. In a balanced game, you Should either be able to put a lot of big threats in your deck and out-value your opponent or you try to play on curve and grab the tempo, but you should not be able to do both. But now with cards like Wand Thief, lackeys, and primes, you can play on curve and never run out of steam. This becomes even more of a problem because card draw/generation has become way too efficient with cards like Sayge, Seer of Darkmoon or Secret Passage. It used to be that in order to generate card advantage with cards like Sprint you actually had to give up tempo, but not any more, which makes the whole concept of card advantage pretty meaningless. Even when Playing against Aggro decks like Aggro DH you usually win by playing a wall of taunts, not running them out of steam. I was happy when Divine Favor was sent away, but then they just print a card like Voracious Reader. Compare that card to Arcane Intellect or Gnomish Inventor, some actual balanced Card draw.
I don't think those are bad examples at all, I think those are solid examples of what discover should be. (And Discover is Priest's primary way of resource generation anyway)
Bad examples are like Dragon's Hoard, or Thoughtsteal, cards which are not very consistent and give you access to cards from literally any card pool even non-class ones. Not Renew (a low impact 1 cost spell).
All three of those examples gives the player access to cards he would have access to in his deck anyway. And in some ways Magic Trick is worse because it's even more consistent and gives you a better chance of getting something cheap (which some mage decks want for mana cyclone synergy).
If it's any comfort, I think a big part of the reason Blizzard is introducing spell schools like Fire and Holy to the game is so they can print cards that say "add a random card from this school to your hand", which is a constrained enough pool that you can reasonably play around the different possibilities, unlike with Babbling Book. When you see your opponent get a random Fire spell, you know that it's almost certainly either removal, a board clear, or burst, but NOT anything that can create or buff minions, nor anything that can stall for time. In contrast, Holy has plenty of heals, some buffs, and some small amount of removal, but no burst.
Well something needs to happen, because I've had a priest soul mirror me over and over from discovers and generations. Legendary spell, riiiight....
The power level of cards is completely off it’s tits across the board, so I would have a hard time trying to argue that the discover cards are OP, or need a nerf. I mean Soulciologist Malicia is a 7-mana 5/5 that summons 18/18 worth of stats with rush.
I cannot imaging building a control Priest list without Renew and/or Palm Reading however, the deck would be far less consistent.
My issue with Discover isn’t the power level (that is an issue, but like I say that is an issue that effects far too many cards at the minute), I just dislike how they extend the tools of almost every deck (decided by a dice roll). I also hate the majority (not all) of RNG outside of the initial shuffling of the deck, for reasons that have been covered in this thread by others.
With something like Renew it isn’t that discovering a 10-Mana card with a 1-Mana card is a problem, or playing the discovered card the same turn is a problem, it’s that the card can be used at any stage in the game to find an answer for any question. I just hate playing against it personally. When Raven Idol was printed Druids suddenly had hard removal, something their class is meant to be bad at. Rogue can flip a coin with Wand Thief to clear a full board, something they aren’t meant to be able to easily do. This is seen as acceptable because the inherent randomness of Discover keeps things in check to a degree, again I just don’t find that a fun or interesting way to balance the game, it’s frustrating to play against and unrewarding to play, for me anyway.
Just to add a quick point from another topic as I mentioned Soulciologist Malicia, Blizzard seem to think it’s fine to completely break cards if they’re designed to fit a certain deck. So with Malicia she is completely unplayable outside of a deck which runs the soul fragment package, however if you do run the package she is completely bonkers. These kind of effects used to be limited to decks with severe restrictions, like Highlander decks, however now the requirement for insane minions seems to just be anything. “Put a few bombs in your opponent’s deck to summon Dr Boom on steriods” is another one.
These things absolutely should be looked at too. Card draw at the minute is absurd. Even aggro decks are going to fatigue and winning games regularly. Warlock, Shaman, Warrior and Priest can obliterate everything you put down with cheap and effective removal. Just about every aspect of their card design needs looking at tbh,
I lost WAY too many games to priest discovering the perfect answer off Renew bro, saying its a low impact 1-mana spell is just false.
I already explained why some discover effects are much stronger than adding high cost high impact cards to your deck in a previous post earlier (flexibility and lower deckbuilding cost), look it up if you want more details. Its fine if you like discover, I like it too, but dont fool yourself thinking the way its been used rn is healthy for the game, it became a victim of powercreep just like many other aspects, some you even mentioned.
True! That can be a nice way to tone down the potential impact of discover, I like the idea of spell schools in general, brings more design space for interactions.
Thats cuz there are other costs you can force the player to pay besides just mana. Malicia has a deckbuilding AND gameplay cost: you must include SF cards in your deck, play them b4 Malicia, NOT draw them before you play her, then pay 7 mana. Shes very strong, but the various costs you must pay to make her strong are enough to balance her. Same thing with Blastmaster, only you have to pray they dont draw the bombs b4 you play him instead.
And there are ways in which it's weaker as a rule. Though priest is a special case. One thing about priest from last year, is that priests' card pool was INCREDIBLY consistent; every card was like a 3-5 star card in terms of power and none of them really relied on synergy. This was done as a sort of attempt to build priest AROUND the discover mechanic. So instead of having draw like mage or warlock, priest would discover their outs and their resources through cards like Renew, Galakrond, Sethekk Veilweaver, etc. I think they went back on this during Darkmoon Faire a bit, but I think primarily that's still the case.
I think MAYBE renew could be a higher cost spell that does something a little more impactful. (Like maybe a 3 mana Divine Hymn-style card with "Discover a spell" attached instead.) Then it's not quite so efficient as a "discover an out" card. But I don't think it's necessarily a problem as is.
Yeah Discover, infinite value generation and so on are very tiresome. I used to be a player heavily into control and value and absolutely despising aggro decks to now finding myself increasingly preferring aggro decks just to avoid the tedium of infinite value.
It would be nice if Blizz did an experiment to greatly reduce RNG and infinite value. They can't do it this year and probably not the next either but if they wanted to in two years they could make it so no new Discover cards were added or heavily limited ones only. Coupled with general reduction in RNG and value generation, RNG being only very limited in range, to make a far more consistent game.
I for one would love to see that.
I have noticed the same dysfunction of this mechanic by my self, and i disagree with the nerf of High Abbess Alura in the same time of boosting the damage generation of rogue's and dh's cards, in the end the results are the same to the fact of a stable class meta.
Zeddy is negative about everything. Thats his schtick, and he atracts other people who just want confirmation bias
I mean you could add counter points to what he said?
Bad cards being in the card pool do make cards like Jandice and Wand Maker less effective, and so a tighter core set with less bad cards makes these cards even better, do you disagree?
In the case of jandice you don't necessarily need bad cards, you just need good battlecry minions with low stats.
Bad cards existing purely to decrease the power level of RNG is bad design imo, they just need to balance RNG generators more properly.
If Jandice becomes too much of a problem then nerf her to 6 mana and revert the nerf when she rotates out, no need to put Stormpike Commando in the pool.
Yeah I agree with this completely. If Blizzard curb the high variance RNG I would be pleasantly suprised.
He can't he just calls names because he has no counter arguments.
Doesnt matter, if there are less bad options the chances of getting highrolls increase, period.
Im holding my pitchforks on this subject cuz we didnt see the Barrens set yet, but unless they introduce a TON of crappy 5 drops and 1 mana spells, these cards will get out of control fast.