This is a SEVEN MANA combo that removes ONE SINGLE MINION. In what world is this problematic?
In the world of a game which heavily relies on minions for win conditions for the greatest percentage of decks. Wonder what game that might be. Something beginning with "Hearthst....."?
And your comment kind of shows you don't see what this combo actually does. It removes 2 minions, not one. And it also only costs 5 mana, with the discounts mentioned above.
It doesnt remove two. It removes 1, then removes a second temporarily until Jailer dies.
And fine, 5 mana for the first set. That makes it a 2 card 10 mana combo that "kills" two minions. You know what else is a 2 mana 10 card combo that kills two minions? Two copies of Assassinate, which nobody even runs.
It gives you the advantage of disrupting combo decks, at the cost of being next to useless against aggro, and risking hitting something like a 1 drop. It's not problematic at all, it's barely even decent.
It's two cards and 7 mana to eliminate one enemy minion. Tickatus, however, was five cards destroyed for 6 mana, with repeat potential due to Y'Sharj.
New version is not even close. I'll be too much mess in the deck, too much work, for very low payoff. I'd say that Felsoul Jailer is the ideal spot for disruption to be. It exists, but it's not good.
why do people keep getting hung up on aggro decks here? 5. There is really nothing wrong with speculation on new cards and mechanics. I mean, people laughed at cards like Tickatus and Carnival Clown etc and look what happened there! ;-)
I do, however, think - in my humble opinion - that this card is likely to cause problems for any decks which rely on specific minions to achieve their win condition.
Because aggro dictates the pacing of the game. If you play midrange, combo or control, aggro is the beatdown and you are control (link). Any fancy combo or late game shenanigans won’t work if you are barely alive by T5 and your opponent is in top deck mode. Since aggro decks are cheap and fast, they will always be part of the meta and ladder, so you have to acknowledge them.
Where is Tickatus and Carnival Clown a problem? They are late game cards in late game decks and if you managed to get there, they do what they are supposed to do.
And again, if it’s only causing problems in niche scenarios then it’s a counter, that’s the intended purpose and it doesn’t make it problematic - especially if the situation is narrowed down to make it problematic.
It’s like saying board clears are problematic versus zoo or if you have a single big minion, removal is problematic. I mean, it’s true, but water is wet.
This is a SEVEN MANA combo that removes ONE SINGLE MINION. In what world is this problematic?
In the world of a game which heavily relies on minions for win conditions for the greatest percentage of decks. Wonder what game that might be. Something beginning with "Hearthst....."?
And your comment kind of shows you don't see what this combo actually does. It removes 2 minions, not one. And it also only costs 5 mana, with the discounts mentioned above.
It doesnt remove two. It removes 1, then removes a second temporarily until Jailer dies.
And fine, 5 mana for the first set. That makes it a 2 card 10 mana combo that "kills" two minions. You know what else is a 2 mana 10 card combo that kills two minions? Two copies of Assassinate, which nobody even runs.
It gives you the advantage of disrupting combo decks, at the cost of being next to useless against aggro, and risking hitting something like a 1 drop. It's not problematic at all, it's barely even decent.
Calling it barely even decent is overstating its power level vastly. It's trash, it's a meme, and 100% of the people who use this combo will end up in a worse position than if they just had two good cards in their deck instead. This is a worse Gnomeferatu, which is wild to be honest considering that card was pretty bad too.
I refer back to my previous comment that people who compare this to Gnomeferatu or Tickatus seem to have no idea what the card actually does which would explain their confusion. :-)
Have you just recently started playing the game? Serious question as if not then it’s perplexing that you would believe this combo to be anything other than pure garbage, as has been pointed out.
To try and put things into perspective, imagine how bad a 2 card, 7 cost combo that only leaves a friendly 3/2 on board and does the following “destroy a random enemy minion and draw a card”. Well this is lightyears worse than that.
Edit:
if you want to ruin combo just play Illucia or Tickatus. Or Counterspell/Spellbender. Or the 3/2 that increases the cost of spells next turn. Or the Warlock minion which discards a card next turn if its not played...
My god you guys are so toxic.. The op is being respectful and reasonable, says things like "it SEEMS problematic TO ME", can't you just tell him why you think he's wrong ?
It is indeed rather bemusing how many people seem to be losing their collective minds over the fact that I am personally concerned about a particular card and its interactions and that this was merely my opinion and certainly not written as being "hard fact". Lol I didn't realise people valued my opinions so highly around here! ;-) I'm probably flattered. Or something! Ahem! One person even raged about why I thought the card was "broken", even though it explicitly states I didn't think that, in the OP. I mean, the guy could at least read the post before randomly spitting his dummy out? Lol!
Ah well! :-D
Welcome to the internet!
OT: This will hardly be problematic. Hearthstone has had single cards that does the same but better (e.g. Dirty Rat and Gnomeferatu) and they did not break the game. Besides, Hearthstone has seen a lot of aggro decks lately and this would be a horrible combo to use against such decks.
Maybe if very specific combo decks becomes a thing but then you would probably just use Ticktatus instead. One mana less and he destroys 5 cards.
Agreed. Let me just reiterate though :- (for the sake of other people who may choose to misinterpret what I am saying once more) 1. I do not think this breaks the game. 2. I do not think this card is "broken". 3. I do not think this card will break / kill the meta, or anything to that effect. 4. I do not think this card is any use against aggro decks (seriously, why do people keep getting hung up on aggro decks here? Aggro decks have their own big counters to deal with). Not to mention that this can be a HUGEbenefit to a good tempo deck that stalls your opponent's ability to keep up. 5. There is really nothing wrong with speculation on new cards and mechanics. I mean, people laughed at cards like Tickatus and Carnival Clown etc and look what happened there! ;-)
I do, however, think - in my humble opinion - that this card is likely to cause problems for any decks which rely on specific minions to achieve their win condition. Mozaki, Yogg, Mallygoose, etc etc. It doesn't even require the Brewmaster to be that problem. If you can stall a combo deck by even one turn, it can be enough to win. Tickatus is also a problem for these decks. As are any cards that allow removal from hand / deck. Once again, though - I don't believe any of these cards are broken or ruin the game or anything to that effect.
Is Tickatus better at removing cards from your opponent's deck? Yes, of course. Is he better at forcing the opponent to discard a card he had been holding onto to complete his OTK kill? Definitely not. In fact, he's useless at that point.
It was not my intention to say you think the combo breaks the game - though I can see I frased it that way. It is still very RNG dependent and not a reliable way to remove a specific card. Say you want to target Malygos and the opponent has 8 cards in his hand. You are spending 7 mana for a 1/8 chance to disrupt his win condition. Otherwise you might just remove a random survivel tool or a burn spell that might not save you. Combo decks usually draw a lot of cards and have big hands. The only deck I can think that consistenly would be fucked by this combo is mechathun priest.
And not all combo decks keep their finishers in their opening hand. If I were to survive an aggressive meta I would keep Malygos and other high end finishers out of my hand because they are a terrible draw in the early game - I'd rather draw cards or keep removal to survive. Thus, a card like Ticktatus moves between 5 and 15 cards from your opponents deck. That is a lot better and a lot more consistent. Because you might not remove Malygos but removing 3 or 4 burst spells? That sucks.
Just a minor correction: in the situation you laid out, you do not have a 1/8 chance of discarding Malygos. Felsoul Jailer targets minions, not cards. So if your opponent only has a bunch of damage spells plus Malygos in hand, this card will hit its intended target.
That doesn't mean the card or combo will be a problem or even a particularly good play, but it would be more effective/ useful than if it merely discarded random cards rather than minions.
Cheers! I read the card as "discard a card" :-) I does make it better though but not consistent.
My god you guys are so toxic.. The op is being respectful and reasonable, says things like "it SEEMS problematic TO ME", can't you just tell him why you think he's wrong ?
I like how everyone thinks of himself as a great card evaluator but in reality every expansion we are horribly wrong about most cards, we think we learn to be more accurate every expansion but in reality game mechanics and cards combinations evolve much faster than our ability to review them.
I don't see this particular combo as being problematic, but I can absolutely see a world where someone makes Felsoul Jailer problematic in some way or another. If you can make copies of it, silence it or whatever, it can quickly become a crazy anti-control/anti-combo card.
Comparison with tickatus is also unfair, the reason you don't brewmaster tickatus is because you can felosophy it instead, and also because it already costs 13 mana to corrupt and play. And it burns cards from the deck, essentially having 0 immediate impact in exchange for bigger impact later in the game. Felsoul jailer has immediate, potentially massive impact if he burns the right card, so brewmaster makes more sense.
In the grand scheme of things, it's like Tickatus, never going to be problematic because Hearthstone will always be an aggro driven game, but i'm positive a lot of hearthstone toxic members and great card reviewers are going to cry a river because Felsoul discarded their wincondition and they couldn't get back the card in time.
Agreed, it shows the state of the forums when everytime someone puts something people don't agree with and it becomes a hivemind of people snarking and bullying and getting their self satisfying little pathetic jabs in from the safety of behind their own screen. What do mods do about it? Nothing.
That's the Hearthstone community in a nutshell. This game seems to attract a lot of the introverted, socially awkward, angry, basement dweller types, who are incapable of meaningful discussion. Any kind of disagreement, no matter the topic, usually results in unnecessary ad hominem attacks. Anything critical is automatically written off as whining by a large majority of this player base. I honestly have no clue why most players even browse the forums, since no topic is ever actually worth discussing in their minds.
Plenty of decks out there that actually run 0 minions and have great winrates so not sure about this. Also warlocks are dead by turn 6 in this aggro meta even zoo is getting out “zoo’ed” by other aggro classes. Not to mention of all the new cards warlocks actually seem the weakest. I actually had a player tickatus me 3 times today and he still lost match it was kind of sad. I had built a great board and had a decent hand by the time he hit 8 mana so his 15 card burn was not even a factor.
My god you guys are so toxic.. The op is being respectful and reasonable, says things like "it SEEMS problematic TO ME", can't you just tell him why you think he's wrong ?
I like how everyone thinks of himself as a great card evaluator but in reality every expansion we are horribly wrong about most cards, we think we learn to be more accurate every expansion but in reality game mechanics and cards combinations evolve much faster than our ability to review them.
I don't see this particular combo as being problematic, but I can absolutely see a world where someone makes Felsoul Jailer problematic in some way or another. If you can make copies of it, silence it or whatever, it can quickly become a crazy anti-control/anti-combo card.
Comparison with tickatus is also unfair, the reason you don't brewmaster tickatus is because you can felosophy it instead, and also because it already costs 13 mana to corrupt and play. And it burns cards from the deck, essentially having 0 immediate impact in exchange for bigger impact later in the game. Felsoul jailer has immediate, potentially massive impact if he burns the right card, so brewmaster makes more sense.
In the grand scheme of things, it's like Tickatus, never going to be problematic because Hearthstone will always be an aggro driven game, but i'm positive a lot of hearthstone toxic members and great card reviewers are going to cry a river because Felsoul discarded their wincondition and they couldn't get back the card in time.
Agreed, it shows the state of the forums when everytime someone puts something people don't agree with and it becomes a hivemind of people snarking and bullying and getting their self satisfying little pathetic jabs in from the safety of behind their own screen. What do mods do about it? Nothing.
That's the Hearthstone community in a nutshell. This game seems to attract a lot of the introverted, socially awkward, angry, basement dweller types, who are incapable of meaningful discussion. Any kind of disagreement, no matter the topic, usually results in unnecessary ad hominem attacks. Anything critical is automatically written off as whining by a large majority of this player base. I honestly have no clue why most players even browse the forums, since no topic is ever actually worth discussing in their minds.
You realize people could already do this with tickatus, and yet, nobody does?
You realize that's because there is a cheaper 1-mana option which literally every Tickatus deck does, which does the same thing for.. wait... 7 mana...? But a 7-mana combo with 2 cards is apparently terrible in some newer players' eyes. Lol Curious...
Some people have pointed out the loss of tempo of playing this card and bouncing it back to your hand. This is a valid point and certainly one that makes the combo much less powerful.
However, there are certainly ways around this. A simple silence would allow the minion to stay on the board (there are options for silencing the minion and may be more with the new set and returning Core cards, who knows?). At which point, you could then use the minion and bounce it back the following turn (if you wanted to).
I cant believe we are even losing time talking about this """"""combo""""".
Have to say the new card is cool, it could slow down your opponent combo but thats it, pretty shure never gonna see play, and completely shure never gonna see this combo
I cant believe we are even losing time talking about this """"""combo""""".
Have to say the new card is cool, it could slow down your opponent combo but thats it, pretty shure never gonna see play, and completely shure never gonna see this combo
I am always bemused by this sort of comment. I mean, why would you waste your own time discussing something that you have no interest in? I mean, nobody is forcing you to be here on this thread, surely? Or are they? Is 4 quotation marks in a row the new signal for help? :-D Do we need to call someone for you?
But seriously, there's always cards that people tend not to see the benefit in before the new meta evolves. Hadronox is possibly one of the biggest examples of this. All the naysayers on the forums thought it was a terrible card that would never see play, and look how that turned out. 3 months later, the cries for a nerf were deafening. Not that I think this card is in the same realms of power as Hadronox is, but the principle is the same here.
Still there are far better ways to combat Combo decks and this combo will almost certainly never be run outside of meme decks (and there are far more effective ways for meme decks to accomplish this currently - using Tick/Illucia).
The reason you are getting a lot of negativity is because you clearly have limited knowledge of deck-building and a poor understanding of how cards are used in order to achieve broken interactions. Yet are making claims like you are in this thread. I don’t say to be nasty and I wouldn’t take it to heart, it’s just very apparent that this is the case by your posts.
There’s a 1-mana “Discover a demon, your next one costs (1) less” card that could pull this and naturally synergies with a Warlock deck which runs Owl as a tech card for other means, much like how Illidari Studies can pull Guide or Star Student Stelina. It’s still unlikely to be seen outside of day 1 memes, but we will be far more likely to see the combo in a situation like that than people hard running the cards together.
I thinked about it and while the best combo you could pull of in Standard is probably new card+Ironbeak Owl, what is still a tempo loss, in Wild you can do this with Recombobulator or this Librarian which Silences adjacent minions, what is much more reliable, however I am not sure how much this is a problem in Wild.
It doesnt remove two. It removes 1, then removes a second temporarily until Jailer dies.
And fine, 5 mana for the first set. That makes it a 2 card 10 mana combo that "kills" two minions. You know what else is a 2 mana 10 card combo that kills two minions? Two copies of Assassinate, which nobody even runs.
It gives you the advantage of disrupting combo decks, at the cost of being next to useless against aggro, and risking hitting something like a 1 drop. It's not problematic at all, it's barely even decent.
It's two cards and 7 mana to eliminate one enemy minion. Tickatus, however, was five cards destroyed for 6 mana, with repeat potential due to Y'Sharj.
New version is not even close. I'll be too much mess in the deck, too much work, for very low payoff. I'd say that Felsoul Jailer is the ideal spot for disruption to be. It exists, but it's not good.
Because aggro dictates the pacing of the game. If you play midrange, combo or control, aggro is the beatdown and you are control (link).
Any fancy combo or late game shenanigans won’t work if you are barely alive by T5 and your opponent is in top deck mode.
Since aggro decks are cheap and fast, they will always be part of the meta and ladder, so you have to acknowledge them.
Where is Tickatus and Carnival Clown a problem? They are late game cards in late game decks and if you managed to get there, they do what they are supposed to do.
And again, if it’s only causing problems in niche scenarios then it’s a counter, that’s the intended purpose and it doesn’t make it problematic - especially if the situation is narrowed down to make it problematic.
It’s like saying board clears are problematic versus zoo or if you have a single big minion, removal is problematic. I mean, it’s true, but water is wet.
Calling it barely even decent is overstating its power level vastly. It's trash, it's a meme, and 100% of the people who use this combo will end up in a worse position than if they just had two good cards in their deck instead. This is a worse Gnomeferatu, which is wild to be honest considering that card was pretty bad too.
It’s not a Gnomeferatu as it lets you target minions in your opponents hand. So if you can read your opponent, you could disrupt their combo.
E.g. a Mecha’thun warlock with few cards left in the deck has a high chance of having it in hand.
But it obviously requires a meta where decks like that are strong.
I refer back to my previous comment that people who compare this to Gnomeferatu or Tickatus seem to have no idea what the card actually does which would explain their confusion. :-)
Have you just recently started playing the game? Serious question as if not then it’s perplexing that you would believe this combo to be anything other than pure garbage, as has been pointed out.
To try and put things into perspective, imagine how bad a 2 card, 7 cost combo that only leaves a friendly 3/2 on board and does the following “destroy a random enemy minion and draw a card”. Well this is lightyears worse than that.
Edit:
if you want to ruin combo just play Illucia or Tickatus. Or Counterspell/Spellbender. Or the 3/2 that increases the cost of spells next turn. Or the Warlock minion which discards a card next turn if its not played...
Cheers! I read the card as "discard a card" :-) I does make it better though but not consistent.
That's the Hearthstone community in a nutshell. This game seems to attract a lot of the introverted, socially awkward, angry, basement dweller types, who are incapable of meaningful discussion. Any kind of disagreement, no matter the topic, usually results in unnecessary ad hominem attacks. Anything critical is automatically written off as whining by a large majority of this player base. I honestly have no clue why most players even browse the forums, since no topic is ever actually worth discussing in their minds.
Plenty of decks out there that actually run 0 minions and have great winrates so not sure about this. Also warlocks are dead by turn 6 in this aggro meta even zoo is getting out “zoo’ed” by other aggro classes. Not to mention of all the new cards warlocks actually seem the weakest. I actually had a player tickatus me 3 times today and he still lost match it was kind of sad. I had built a great board and had a decent hand by the time he hit 8 mana so his 15 card burn was not even a factor.
True words. ^^
You realize people could already do this with tickatus, and yet, nobody does?
You realize that's because there is a cheaper 1-mana option which literally every Tickatus deck does, which does the same thing for.. wait... 7 mana...? But a 7-mana combo with 2 cards is apparently terrible in some newer players' eyes. Lol
Curious...
Some people have pointed out the loss of tempo of playing this card and bouncing it back to your hand.
This is a valid point and certainly one that makes the combo much less powerful.
However, there are certainly ways around this. A simple silence would allow the minion to stay on the board (there are options for silencing the minion and may be more with the new set and returning Core cards, who knows?).
At which point, you could then use the minion and bounce it back the following turn (if you wanted to).
Well 7 mana combo discard 10 cards is pretty good I think, 7 mana discard 1 card is a joke
I cant believe we are even losing time talking about this """"""combo""""".
Have to say the new card is cool, it could slow down your opponent combo but thats it, pretty shure never gonna see play, and completely shure never gonna see this combo
I am always bemused by this sort of comment.
I mean, why would you waste your own time discussing something that you have no interest in?
I mean, nobody is forcing you to be here on this thread, surely?
Or are they?
Is 4 quotation marks in a row the new signal for help? :-D Do we need to call someone for you?
But seriously, there's always cards that people tend not to see the benefit in before the new meta evolves. Hadronox is possibly one of the biggest examples of this. All the naysayers on the forums thought it was a terrible card that would never see play, and look how that turned out. 3 months later, the cries for a nerf were deafening.
Not that I think this card is in the same realms of power as Hadronox is, but the principle is the same here.
Owl is a far better option than Brewmaster, yes.
Still there are far better ways to combat Combo decks and this combo will almost certainly never be run outside of meme decks (and there are far more effective ways for meme decks to accomplish this currently - using Tick/Illucia).
The reason you are getting a lot of negativity is because you clearly have limited knowledge of deck-building and a poor understanding of how cards are used in order to achieve broken interactions. Yet are making claims like you are in this thread. I don’t say to be nasty and I wouldn’t take it to heart, it’s just very apparent that this is the case by your posts.
There’s a 1-mana “Discover a demon, your next one costs (1) less” card that could pull this and naturally synergies with a Warlock deck which runs Owl as a tech card for other means, much like how Illidari Studies can pull Guide or Star Student Stelina. It’s still unlikely to be seen outside of day 1 memes, but we will be far more likely to see the combo in a situation like that than people hard running the cards together.
I thinked about it and while the best combo you could pull of in Standard is probably new card+Ironbeak Owl, what is still a tempo loss, in Wild you can do this with Recombobulator or this Librarian which Silences adjacent minions, what is much more reliable, however I am not sure how much this is a problem in Wild.
Gnomferatu does nothing to the card advantage mechanic, which is one of the most important things in card games.