I think we can all agree that Hearthstone has had a history of broken one-drops. Cards like Undertaker, Tunnel Trogg, and Small-Time Buccaneer have all caused their fair share of mayhem but none of them permanently effected the standard format. Cards like these rotate out eventually (or are nerfed if we're lucky) and we forget about them. However, we will always be stuck with one-drops in the evergreen sets. Most have already been addressed, such as Abusive Sergeant, Leper Gnome, and Blood Imp; however, one minion continues to be a problem, and that is Mana Wyrm. It is the type of card that if you don't have an answer, it will snowball out of control. No one-mana card should be able to win the game by itself. Also, I don't care much for Northshire Cleric, but I don't think it's as much of a problem as Mana Wyrm.
Perhaps I'm overreacting or even being too lenient. I can also see the argument that strong neutral cards are important for new players. I'd love to hear other people's opinion on the matter.
There are a ton of basic/classic cards that deserve nerfs because they are too powerful to be forever in Standard, and Mana Wyrm is just one of them. I don't think that being a 1-drop and snowbally makes Mana Wyrm any worse than any other overpowered card, what matters the most is representation. The reason why cards like Abusive Sergeant, Leper Gnome and Undertaker were nerfed because they had too much meta impact, they were in almost every single aggro deck across all classes.
Generally overpowered class cards aren't nerfed as often unless the class is dominating the meta, as was the case with Shaman and Spirit Claws. For this reason I expect Mana Wyrm to stick around for quite a while longer, since Tempo Mage decks aren't exactly overly oppressive at the moment.
Mana Wyrm definitely can snowball but it can't do it by itself. Your opponent needs to play spells in order for it to become a threat. Early game can be tough if you haven't drawn any removal or minions that can deal with it effectively but I personally don't see it as something in need of a nerf.
Whenever I see a post starting with "I think we can all agree ..." (which does happen quite a lot), I more often than not actually don't agree. xD
In this case, however, I can at least agree with the initial statement - yes, there have been problematic one-drops and no, Mana Wyrm is not one of them.^^
Don't misunderstand, though, my dear "omg Secret Mage is so busted, nerf everything!!!111oneoneeleven" friends - Mana Wyrm is indeed a strong one-drop for its designated class ... so is Northshire Cleric, so is Flame Imp, so is Voidwalker, so is ... but I think you get the idea now. :) It seems like whenever there is a deck that is giving people playing other (again specific) decks problems in the current meta, the first thing that people like to do is to roll the dice to randomly choose a card from the deck, take up torches and pitchforks and screm neeeeerf! It would be amusing if it wasn't so sad. :/
Having said that, and at this point it has been said before as far as I can see, Mana Wyrm requires spells to be played in order to be able to really snowball and become a threat. So yes, if your opponent is lucky enough to get away with continually playing spells while you just pet the little Mana Wyrm ... I suppose it really can get out of control.^^
Northshire cleric is even worse then mana wyrm.Let cleric draw 5 or more cards and you will see the apocalypse coming in the following turns. Mage secrets are the problem,not the wyrm,and i am particularly referring to runes and counterspell.
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Best quotes: "Casual is perfectly fine" "warlock is not overpowered" "Playing odd paladin just to test it"
Mana Wyrm isn't the problem, it's the combination of Lackey/Kirin Tor with cheating out Counterspell/Explosive Runes, which means actually contesting the 1/3 Wyrm is really difficult, especially if you don't have the coin or a cheap minion you don't mind sacrificing.
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Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.
The problem with removing mana wyrm is the same every class faces: if you don't have an early, sticky threat specifically on turn 1, the class falls apart. Look at shaman: the moment it lost tunnel trogg, the class immediately plummeted out of tier 1. You can look at Warlock and Priest decks and attribute much of their ability to succeed to having a viable 1-drop. Especially when you look at mage, they have absolutely zero tools to deal with the early game if you remove mana wyrm and that class would almost certainly go in one of two directions: revert back to over-board control style play like freeze mage, or collapse. Unless you put in another 1/3 1-drop, mana wyrm simply cannot be removed.
Pre-nerf: Oh no, highlander priest is a problem! Blizzard, nerf!
Post-nerf: Oh no, secret mage is a problem! Blizzard, nerf!
Honestly, I couldn't care less about where Secret Mage sits in the tier list. My issue is with Mana Wrym being a two-of in every Mage deck since as long as I can remember. That's also the same reason I'm not a fan of Northshire Cleric.
The problem with removing mana wyrm is the same every class faces: if you don't have an early, sticky threat specifically on turn 1, the class falls apart. Look at shaman: the moment it lost tunnel trogg, the class immediately plummeted out of tier 1. You can look at Warlock and Priest decks and attribute much of their ability to succeed to having a viable 1-drop. Especially when you look at mage, they have absolutely zero tools to deal with the early game if you remove mana wyrm and that class would almost certainly go in one of two directions: revert back to over-board control style play like freeze mage, or collapse. Unless you put in another 1/3 1-drop, mana wyrm simply cannot be removed.
It doesn't matter if you nerf class card 1/3's because if you did, everyone would just run Dire Mole. And I do not want to start a movement to nerf 1/3 class minions. On its own, Mana Wyrm is merely annoying. But as I said earlier, it's troublesome because the other existing synergy protects it a little too well.
Nah Mana Wyrm isn't too powerful on it's own, secret mage just has a lot going for it right now. I like the idea of classes having really powerful class defining cards as long as they don't force the class into playing only one way, which Mana Wyrm hasn't done for mage.
Pre-nerf: Oh no, highlander priest is a problem! Blizzard, nerf!
Post-nerf: Oh no, secret mage is a problem! Blizzard, nerf!
Honestly, I couldn't care less about where Secret Mage sits in the tier list. My issue is with Mana Wrym being a two-of in every Mage deck since as long as I can remember. That's also the same reason I'm not a fan of Northshire Cleric.
???
Mana Wyrm has only ever seen play in aggressive Mage lists - whenever slower builds are viable, the card has passed out of the meta-game for months on end. HSReplays currently puts the play-rate of the card at 67%. By comparison, Backstab is currently played in 87% of Rogue decks, while Animal Companion is in 87% of Hunter decks.
I missed these threads about how Mana Wyrm is OP etc. IMO it is a very good card, and with great draw it can win you the game by, I dunno, turn 5. But it's not a problematic card. Definitely not as Undertaker was. So I understand that you feel this card is OP but it's really not.
I think we can all agree that Hearthstone has had a history of broken one-drops. Cards like Undertaker, Tunnel Trogg, and Small-Time Buccaneer have all caused their fair share of mayhem but none of them permanently effected the standard format. Cards like these rotate out eventually (or are nerfed if we're lucky) and we forget about them. However, we will always be stuck with one-drops in the evergreen sets. Most have already been addressed, such as Abusive Sergeant, Leper Gnome, and Blood Imp; however, one minion continues to be a problem, and that is Mana Wyrm. It is the type of card that if you don't have an answer, it will snowball out of control. No one-mana card should be able to win the game by itself. Also, I don't care much for Northshire Cleric, but I don't think it's as much of a problem as Mana Wyrm.
The solution: I think Mana Wyrm should be a 1/2
Perhaps I'm overreacting or even being too lenient. I can also see the argument that strong neutral cards are important for new players. I'd love to hear other people's opinion on the matter.
How would you propose that it be changed?
There are a ton of basic/classic cards that deserve nerfs because they are too powerful to be forever in Standard, and Mana Wyrm is just one of them. I don't think that being a 1-drop and snowbally makes Mana Wyrm any worse than any other overpowered card, what matters the most is representation. The reason why cards like Abusive Sergeant, Leper Gnome and Undertaker were nerfed because they had too much meta impact, they were in almost every single aggro deck across all classes.
Generally overpowered class cards aren't nerfed as often unless the class is dominating the meta, as was the case with Shaman and Spirit Claws. For this reason I expect Mana Wyrm to stick around for quite a while longer, since Tempo Mage decks aren't exactly overly oppressive at the moment.
Pre-nerf: Oh no, highlander priest is a problem! Blizzard, nerf!
Post-nerf: Oh no, secret mage is a problem! Blizzard, nerf!
Mana Wyrm definitely can snowball but it can't do it by itself. Your opponent needs to play spells in order for it to become a threat. Early game can be tough if you haven't drawn any removal or minions that can deal with it effectively but I personally don't see it as something in need of a nerf.
Whenever I see a post starting with "I think we can all agree ..." (which does happen quite a lot), I more often than not actually don't agree. xD
In this case, however, I can at least agree with the initial statement - yes, there have been problematic one-drops and no, Mana Wyrm is not one of them.^^
Don't misunderstand, though, my dear "omg Secret Mage is so busted, nerf everything!!!111oneoneeleven" friends - Mana Wyrm is indeed a strong one-drop for its designated class ... so is Northshire Cleric, so is Flame Imp, so is Voidwalker, so is ... but I think you get the idea now. :) It seems like whenever there is a deck that is giving people playing other (again specific) decks problems in the current meta, the first thing that people like to do is to roll the dice to randomly choose a card from the deck, take up torches and pitchforks and screm neeeeerf! It would be amusing if it wasn't so sad. :/
Having said that, and at this point it has been said before as far as I can see, Mana Wyrm requires spells to be played in order to be able to really snowball and become a threat. So yes, if your opponent is lucky enough to get away with continually playing spells while you just pet the little Mana Wyrm ... I suppose it really can get out of control.^^
Northshire cleric is even worse then mana wyrm.Let cleric draw 5 or more cards and you will see the apocalypse coming in the following turns.
Mage secrets are the problem,not the wyrm,and i am particularly referring to runes and counterspell.
Best quotes:
"Casual is perfectly fine"
"warlock is not overpowered"
"Playing odd paladin just to test it"
Mana Wyrm isn't the problem, it's the combination of Lackey/Kirin Tor with cheating out Counterspell/Explosive Runes, which means actually contesting the 1/3 Wyrm is really difficult, especially if you don't have the coin or a cheap minion you don't mind sacrificing.
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Mana Wyrm's biggest sin is that it's in Classic.
The problem with removing mana wyrm is the same every class faces: if you don't have an early, sticky threat specifically on turn 1, the class falls apart. Look at shaman: the moment it lost tunnel trogg, the class immediately plummeted out of tier 1. You can look at Warlock and Priest decks and attribute much of their ability to succeed to having a viable 1-drop. Especially when you look at mage, they have absolutely zero tools to deal with the early game if you remove mana wyrm and that class would almost certainly go in one of two directions: revert back to over-board control style play like freeze mage, or collapse. Unless you put in another 1/3 1-drop, mana wyrm simply cannot be removed.
Cards are played in a card game, people, get over it.
"Speculation is foolish when the tools of certainty are available." —Cinna, Vedalken Consul
It's a three hp minion. Most classes can deal with that quite easily.
Golden Hero Collections thus far; -
Europe: Druid, Hunter, Paladin, Mage, Priest, Rogue, Shaman, Warlock, Warrior (9/9)
Americas: Druid, Mage, Paladin Shaman (4/9)
Everywhere else: Workin on it.. (0/9)
Kaladin's RoS Set Review
Join me at Out of Cards!
-let´s negotiate: you concede and I let you live...
The only reason Mana Wyrm is strong is because mages always mulligan for Frostbolt and Mirror Image
the forgotten epics
Junkbot Frost Giant Luckydo Buccaneer Sea Reaver Darkspeaker Mini-Mage Blubber Baron Captain's Parrot Magnataur Alpha
Nah Mana Wyrm isn't too powerful on it's own, secret mage just has a lot going for it right now. I like the idea of classes having really powerful class defining cards as long as they don't force the class into playing only one way, which Mana Wyrm hasn't done for mage.
I missed these threads about how Mana Wyrm is OP etc. IMO it is a very good card, and with great draw it can win you the game by, I dunno, turn 5. But it's not a problematic card. Definitely not as Undertaker was. So I understand that you feel this card is OP but it's really not.
Mana Wyrm isn't exactly OP. A lot of cards can steamroll if left alone (Questing Adventurer, Gadgetzan Auctioneer, Brann Bronzebeard, Frothing Berserker etc) but generally if you can deal with mana wyrm you get pummeled by Explosive Runes anyway, that card's the real troublemaker.
That's Incredible!