its not the fact that the decks are tier 1, it's the fact that they are played out automatically and i might awell be playing against a computer with the amount of action it's required other than playing your shit on curve
You know, that playing every other deck is easy like this? Only combo decks like old Miracle or Grim Pat needed skill.
The thing about card games is the largest amount of skill goes into crafting a deck, rather than playing it. Of course now we have meta data and statistics that make the process of finding the best card combinations much easier. As far deck interaction goes, Secret Pally is very interactable, as most of its cards are put down on the board rather than being spells that are keep in hand most of the time. Mid-range is intractable too expect for the obvious savage/force of nature combo. While fun is subjective, I will say I have never not had fun winning.
So ask yourself: If you really enjoy your deck so much, why are you coming on here to complain about tier 1 decks? Why not try it and see if you enjoy it as well? It doesn't make you a bad person to want and use the best equipment. It's in the game for a reason. For you to use and have fun.
So instead of complaining, just join the crowd.
Yeah, lets all play the exact same 2-3 decks. This is gonna be so fun.
Also, it is neither the fact that the decks are tier 1 nor that they are easy to play (come on, every deck including old Miracle and Patron are easy to play after a few matches), nor the fact the decks are somewhat uninteractive, it is just that you see them over and over. You lose against one, queue up against the same deck again, lose again, and there you go, the salt is real.
If the ladder was full of Mill rogues, I'd get annoyed by them like I do with Secret Pallys now, but currently I enjoy those unusual decks, it is a nice diversion from the currently super-boring ladder.
if you want to preform well in a game over having fun playing the game.... i feel sorry for you. go play your tier1 deck and win without using one single braincell
Can't put out your full mana pool worth of cards this turn? Too bad. You lost to a deck that does. Like Secret Paladin.
Got 24 health as a control deck versus a Druid who innervated out Shade of Naxramas on turn 1..? Too bad. You lose on turn 9, no matter what you do, if he has got the combo.
Between burst and value... the chance of catching up or defending is simply not there:
There are no minions that counter on-curve minions: Drop a minion one turn too late, and it dies to your opponent's on-curve minion while that minion survives.
There are no spells or minions that counter burst, except warrior spells and minions.
I've warned two people in here so far. Next one that attacks other posters with offensive remarks gets double warning points. Keep it civil.
Is that allowed by forum rules?
Nobody answered this. Moderators? Admins? In the rules, there's a set amount of warning points for each reason for gaining them. Can you just decide: "hey, I hate this thread and this subject and the people here, so everyone here will get double warning points"?
I've warned two people in here so far. Next one that attacks other posters with offensive remarks gets double warning points. Keep it civil.
Is that allowed by forum rules?
Nobody answered this. Moderators? Admins? In the rules, there's a set amount of warning points for each reason for gaining them. Can you just decide: "hey, I hate this thread and this subject and the people here, so everyone here will get double warning points"?
The admins make the rules. It might be against the CURRENT rules, but there's no reason why Flux couldn't change the rules for a specific case.
I refuse to play tier 1 decks, based solely one the fact that I want to EARN my wins, not have the win handed to me on a platter just because I hit my curve. Secret paladins and combo druids are especially notorious for this, but I could mention other decks as well. Before someone says I dont know what Im talking about, do know that I have been playing since beta, I have 3726 total wins in ranked and Ive played those matchups hundreds and hundreds of times. I did reach legend in september with a paladin homebrew, (midrangish), no mysterious challenger. That was just to get the cardback, nowadays I stop at rank 5, just for the chest.
Its beyond bad game design that you should get "free" wins like this, but what is even worse is, that the community jump on every free win opportunity like its candy on halloween. Then you open up twitch and see that the so called "pros" are playing free win decks as well. Only a small handful of these pros are actually worthy of the title "pro" in my oppinion. Its almost like playing golf where your opponent has a handicap, which you didnt agree upon before the match started. Honestly, Hearthstone may be the first competitive game in game history ,where players are actually rewarded for lack of creatitivy and the ability to problem solve. To me, playing tier 1 is like taking the easy way out, I want a challenge, not easy mode.
Then you open up twitch and see that the so called "pros" are playing free win decks as well. Only a small handful of these pros are actually worthy of the title "pro" in my oppinion.
Do you see professional football players taping their legs together before a game? Do professional baseball players train using tree branches and rocks instead of modern bats and balls? Why in the world would a professional player for anything not take every advantage available to them?
I don't hate Tier 1 decks for the sake of them being Tier 1. I hate when the specific Tier 1 decks either don't require any skill or are incredibly easy to be successful with. Netdecking as such is quite odd for me. I played a lot of different shaman decks, most of which were either decks I created myself or variations of netdecks. When Aggro Shaman became super popular and ended up being the first Tier 1 Shaman deck since forever, I was quite happy and decided that it would be a good opportunity to play my favorite class with great success.
I am not much of an aggro player, so because someone else came up with the deck and the type of deck didn't quite fit me, I was not very successful in playing it. I also didn't enjoy it very much. I ended up deleting the deck after 20 or so games with it.
I think this applies to more people than me. In times where Handlock was very popular, I would see quite a few misplays by opponents. Same goes for Freeze Mage. These decks, where powerful, still require some skill, knowledge and finesse to play well. When people mindlessly netdeck the most popular deck, oftentimes it's easy to beat them because they didn't create the deck they felt like playing or enjoy playing, but instead just copy pasted someone else's list. That would naturally result in some people being unable to handle the decks properly and their success with the deck to be sub-optimal.
The current dominant Secret Paladin and Combo Druid decks have nothing in common with Handlock or Freeze Mage, where tactics and skill are required for success. That is what annoys me about them. It doesn't matter how much you maintain board control all game against these decks. It doesn't matter how your opponent is sitting at 2 health at the end of the match when your portrait blows up. These decks have no concern for the board state or their health pool.
Secret Paladin is incredibly simple to play. It pretty much runs on autopilot. Drop a couple of weak minions, drop a Mysterious Challenger, Dr. Boom and Tirion Fordring, easy win. Secret Paladin barely offers any good choices to be made against them. Avenge punishes players for trading, Competitive Spirit punishes them for not trading. Noble Sacrifice makes trading less predictable if used in conjunction with Avenge, because you won't know which minion will be buffed. Not only that, but with cards like Muster for Battle and Haunted Creeper, it is in most cases hard to maintain a higher number of minions on the board than the Paladin. If Avenge and Noble Sacrifice are up, and the Paladin played Muster for Battle, you'll have to deal with 4 minions which can be really, really hard to do as early as turn 3.
Combo Druid is even easier to play than Secret Paladin. Drop minions, go face, repeat. Once the 2 card combo has been drawn, simply wait until you have enough mana to play them for an easy 16+ damage from hand, should some minions still be on the board, which isn't that hard to achieve with cards like Haunted Creeper, Piloted Shredder, Shade of Naxxramas and the like. Due to cards like Innervate, Wild Growth and Darnassus Aspirant, achieving the required amount of mana is easy as well. So the bottom line of this deck is drop whatever minion you draw, go face, play combo.
Both of these decks are absolutely non-interactive and require only minimal skill to be successful with. If anything, they solely rely on half decent draw for wins. That, in my opinion is what makes the current Tier 1 decks worse than most previous Tier 1 decks. Every player, no matter how unskilled can easily achieve Legend rank by simply showing perseverance with a mindless, super easy to play deck which is hard to counter and requires perfect draw to beat.
Edit: To get back to the initial statement about having trouble with netdeckes, the current Tier 1 decks don't have that small flaw to them. Compared to picking up Aggro Shaman or Handlock for the first time and failing miserably at them, Secret Paladin and Combo Druid can be played by anyone at any skill level with no fear of stumbling upon this issue. I don't mind if people get Legend or get to Legend with a netdeck. I am happy for them. But if they reach legend with a netdeck that requires practice and skill or reach it with an autopilot deck, that's two very different things in my opinion. That is the real issue in the meta right now.
I don't hate Tier 1 decks for the sake of them being Tier 1. I hate when the specific Tier 1 decks either don't require any skill or are incredibly easy to be successful with. Netdecking as such is quite odd for me. I played a lot of different shaman decks, most of which were either decks I created myself or variations of netdecks. When Aggro Shaman became super popular and ended up being the first Tier 1 Shaman deck since forever, I was quite happy and decided that it would be a good opportunity to play my favorite class with great success.
I am not much of an aggro player, so because someone else came up with the deck and the type of deck didn't quite fit me, I was not very successful in playing it. I also didn't enjoy it very much. I ended up deleting the deck after 20 or so games with it.
I think this applies to more people than me. In times where Handlock was very popular, I would see quite a few misplays by opponents. Same goes for Freeze Mage. These decks, where powerful, still require some skill, knowledge and finesse to play well. When people mindlessly netdeck the most popular deck, oftentimes it's easy to beat them because they didn't create the deck they felt like playing or enjoy playing, but instead just copy pasted someone else's list. That would naturally result in some people being unable to handle the decks properly and their success with the deck to be sub-optimal.
The current dominant Secret Paladin and Combo Druid decks have nothing in common with Handlock or Freeze Mage, where tactics and skill are required for success. That is what annoys me about them. It doesn't matter how much you maintain board control all game against these decks. It doesn't matter how your opponent is sitting at 2 health at the end of the match when your portrait blows up. These decks have no concern for the board state or their health pool.
Secret Paladin is incredibly simple to play. It pretty much runs on autopilot. Drop a couple of weak minions, drop a Mysterious Challenger, Dr. Boom and Tirion Fordring, easy win. Secret Paladin barely offers any good choices to be made against them. Avenge punishes players for trading, Competitive Spirit punishes them for not trading. Noble Sacrifice makes trading less predictable if used in conjunction with Avenge, because you won't know which minion will be buffed. Not only that, but with cards like Muster for Battle and Haunted Creeper, it is in most cases hard to maintain a higher number of minions on the board than the Paladin. If Avenge and Noble Sacrifice are up, and the Paladin played Muster for Battle, you'll have to deal with 4 minions which can be really, really hard to do as early as turn 3.
Combo Druid is even easier to play than Secret Paladin. Drop minions, go face, repeat. Once the 2 card combo has been drawn, simply wait until you have enough mana to play them for an easy 16+ damage from hand, should some minions still be on the board, which isn't that hard to achieve with cards like Haunted Creeper, Piloted Shredder, Shade of Naxxramas and the like. Due to cards like Innervate, Wild Growth and Darnassus Aspirant, achieving the required amount of mana is easy as well. So the bottom line of this deck is drop whatever minion you draw, go face, play combo.
Both of these decks are absolutely non-interactive and require only minimal skill to be successful with. If anything, they solely rely on half decent draw for wins. That, in my opinion is what makes the current Tier 1 decks worse than most previous Tier 1 decks. Every player, no matter how unskilled can easily achieve Legend rank by simply showing perseverance with a mindless, super easy to play deck which is hard to counter and requires perfect draw to beat.
I don't hate Tier 1 decks for the sake of them being Tier 1. I hate when the specific Tier 1 decks either don't require any skill or are incredibly easy to be successful with. Netdecking as such is quite odd for me. I played a lot of different shaman decks, most of which were either decks I created myself or variations of netdecks. When Aggro Shaman became super popular and ended up being the first Tier 1 Shaman deck since forever, I was quite happy and decided that it would be a good opportunity to play my favorite class with great success.
I am not much of an aggro player, so because someone else came up with the deck and the type of deck didn't quite fit me, I was not very successful in playing it. I also didn't enjoy it very much. I ended up deleting the deck after 20 or so games with it.
I think this applies to more people than me. In times where Handlock was very popular, I would see quite a few misplays by opponents. Same goes for Freeze Mage. These decks, where powerful, still require some skill, knowledge and finesse to play well. When people mindlessly netdeck the most popular deck, oftentimes it's easy to beat them because they didn't create the deck they felt like playing or enjoy playing, but instead just copy pasted someone else's list. That would naturally result in some people being unable to handle the decks properly and their success with the deck to be sub-optimal.
The current dominant Secret Paladin and Combo Druid decks have nothing in common with Handlock or Freeze Mage, where tactics and skill are required for success. That is what annoys me about them. It doesn't matter how much you maintain board control all game against these decks. It doesn't matter how your opponent is sitting at 2 health at the end of the match when your portrait blows up. These decks have no concern for the board state or their health pool.
Secret Paladin is incredibly simple to play. It pretty much runs on autopilot. Drop a couple of weak minions, drop a Mysterious Challenger, Dr. Boom and Tirion Fordring, easy win. Secret Paladin barely offers any good choices to be made against them. Avenge punishes players for trading, Competitive Spirit punishes them for not trading. Noble Sacrifice makes trading less predictable if used in conjunction with Avenge, because you won't know which minion will be buffed. Not only that, but with cards like Muster for Battle and Haunted Creeper, it is in most cases hard to maintain a higher number of minions on the board than the Paladin. If Avenge and Noble Sacrifice are up, and the Paladin played Muster for Battle, you'll have to deal with 4 minions which can be really, really hard to do as early as turn 3.
Combo Druid is even easier to play than Secret Paladin. Drop minions, go face, repeat. Once the 2 card combo has been drawn, simply wait until you have enough mana to play them for an easy 16+ damage from hand, should some minions still be on the board, which isn't that hard to achieve with cards like Haunted Creeper, Piloted Shredder, Shade of Naxxramas and the like. Due to cards like Innervate, Wild Growth and Darnassus Aspirant, achieving the required amount of mana is easy as well. So the bottom line of this deck is drop whatever minion you draw, go face, play combo.
Both of these decks are absolutely non-interactive and require only minimal skill to be successful with. If anything, they solely rely on half decent draw for wins. That, in my opinion is what makes the current Tier 1 decks worse than most previous Tier 1 decks. Every player, no matter how unskilled can easily achieve Legend rank by simply showing perseverance with a mindless, super easy to play deck which is hard to counter and requires perfect draw to beat.
People hate on decks like Secret Paladin (myself included) because they're tier 1 and require no skill to play. Even bots can get to rank 5 with SP. Tier 1 decks should reauire some skill to play imo
People ran Patron bots up to rank 5 same with Freeze mage. It doesn't matter how complex a deck is eventually a bot will play it better than pros. The only thing stopping that is faster release cycles like we got with LoE. Bots are so so much better than they were 2 years ago and the only one you people are complaining about is the free trial one that gets you banned instantly because it has no warden protection but everyone uses it anyway because Blizz takes 2-3 months to actually take action against no warden protection bots.
Proof and source of this please.
Also, you obviously don't have much clue about making AIs for games. Making an AI for a game with unknowns or too many iterations is a monumental task.
I don't hate Tier 1 decks for the sake of them being Tier 1. I hate when the specific Tier 1 decks either don't require any skill or are incredibly easy to be successful with. Netdecking as such is quite odd for me. I played a lot of different shaman decks, most of which were either decks I created myself or variations of netdecks. When Aggro Shaman became super popular and ended up being the first Tier 1 Shaman deck since forever, I was quite happy and decided that it would be a good opportunity to play my favorite class with great success.
I am not much of an aggro player, so because someone else came up with the deck and the type of deck didn't quite fit me, I was not very successful in playing it. I also didn't enjoy it very much. I ended up deleting the deck after 20 or so games with it.
I think this applies to more people than me. In times where Handlock was very popular, I would see quite a few misplays by opponents. Same goes for Freeze Mage. These decks, where powerful, still require some skill, knowledge and finesse to play well. When people mindlessly netdeck the most popular deck, oftentimes it's easy to beat them because they didn't create the deck they felt like playing or enjoy playing, but instead just copy pasted someone else's list. That would naturally result in some people being unable to handle the decks properly and their success with the deck to be sub-optimal.
The current dominant Secret Paladin and Combo Druid decks have nothing in common with Handlock or Freeze Mage, where tactics and skill are required for success. That is what annoys me about them. It doesn't matter how much you maintain board control all game against these decks. It doesn't matter how your opponent is sitting at 2 health at the end of the match when your portrait blows up. These decks have no concern for the board state or their health pool.
Secret Paladin is incredibly simple to play. It pretty much runs on autopilot. Drop a couple of weak minions, drop a Mysterious Challenger, Dr. Boom and Tirion Fordring, easy win. Secret Paladin barely offers any good choices to be made against them. Avenge punishes players for trading, Competitive Spirit punishes them for not trading. Noble Sacrifice makes trading less predictable if used in conjunction with Avenge, because you won't know which minion will be buffed. Not only that, but with cards like Muster for Battle and Haunted Creeper, it is in most cases hard to maintain a higher number of minions on the board than the Paladin. If Avenge and Noble Sacrifice are up, and the Paladin played Muster for Battle, you'll have to deal with 4 minions which can be really, really hard to do as early as turn 3.
Combo Druid is even easier to play than Secret Paladin. Drop minions, go face, repeat. Once the 2 card combo has been drawn, simply wait until you have enough mana to play them for an easy 16+ damage from hand, should some minions still be on the board, which isn't that hard to achieve with cards like Haunted Creeper, Piloted Shredder, Shade of Naxxramas and the like. Due to cards like Innervate, Wild Growth and Darnassus Aspirant, achieving the required amount of mana is easy as well. So the bottom line of this deck is drop whatever minion you draw, go face, play combo.
Both of these decks are absolutely non-interactive and require only minimal skill to be successful with. If anything, they solely rely on half decent draw for wins. That, in my opinion is what makes the current Tier 1 decks worse than most previous Tier 1 decks. Every player, no matter how unskilled can easily achieve Legend rank by simply showing perseverance with a mindless, super easy to play deck which is hard to counter and requires perfect draw to beat.
Edit: To get back to the initial statement about having trouble with netdeckes, the current Tier 1 decks don't have that small flaw to them. Compared to picking up Aggro Shaman or Handlock for the first time and failing miserably at them, Secret Paladin and Combo Druid can be played by anyone at any skill level with no fear of stumbling upon this issue. I don't mind if people get Legend or get to Legend with a netdeck. I am happy for them. But if they reach legend with a netdeck that requires practice and skill or reach it with an autopilot deck, that's two very different things in my opinion. That is the real issue in the meta right now.
Yeah, I agree with this. The problem isn't powerful decks that can outshine all others in terms of winrates, we don't have any decks ala old grim patron anymore. In terms of attainable power, the meta isn't too bad... it's perhaps a bit stale because some decks polarize it immensely.
What we have now are some very powerful yet very simple decks to play. I'd say secret pally is in a class of it's own though, combo druid might have an easy finisher... but in the hands of not-so-good players the deck can actually be fairly inconsistent (though still strong versus players of similar skill of course).
I don't hate tier1 decks, but I hate too good and too bad cards and interactions.
Some cards are just too much tempo and value with no downsides. Thats just isn't right. Slightly nerfing such broken cards would allow more decks to be tier1, leading to more diverse meta.
I don't hate Tier 1 decks for the sake of them being Tier 1. I hate when the specific Tier 1 decks either don't require any skill or are incredibly easy to be successful with. Netdecking as such is quite odd for me. I played a lot of different shaman decks, most of which were either decks I created myself or variations of netdecks. When Aggro Shaman became super popular and ended up being the first Tier 1 Shaman deck since forever, I was quite happy and decided that it would be a good opportunity to play my favorite class with great success.
I am not much of an aggro player, so because someone else came up with the deck and the type of deck didn't quite fit me, I was not very successful in playing it. I also didn't enjoy it very much. I ended up deleting the deck after 20 or so games with it.
I think this applies to more people than me. In times where Handlock was very popular, I would see quite a few misplays by opponents. Same goes for Freeze Mage. These decks, where powerful, still require some skill, knowledge and finesse to play well. When people mindlessly netdeck the most popular deck, oftentimes it's easy to beat them because they didn't create the deck they felt like playing or enjoy playing, but instead just copy pasted someone else's list. That would naturally result in some people being unable to handle the decks properly and their success with the deck to be sub-optimal.
The current dominant Secret Paladin and Combo Druid decks have nothing in common with Handlock or Freeze Mage, where tactics and skill are required for success. That is what annoys me about them. It doesn't matter how much you maintain board control all game against these decks. It doesn't matter how your opponent is sitting at 2 health at the end of the match when your portrait blows up. These decks have no concern for the board state or their health pool.
Secret Paladin is incredibly simple to play. It pretty much runs on autopilot. Drop a couple of weak minions, drop a Mysterious Challenger, Dr. Boom and Tirion Fordring, easy win. Secret Paladin barely offers any good choices to be made against them. Avenge punishes players for trading, Competitive Spirit punishes them for not trading. Noble Sacrifice makes trading less predictable if used in conjunction with Avenge, because you won't know which minion will be buffed. Not only that, but with cards like Muster for Battle and Haunted Creeper, it is in most cases hard to maintain a higher number of minions on the board than the Paladin. If Avenge and Noble Sacrifice are up, and the Paladin played Muster for Battle, you'll have to deal with 4 minions which can be really, really hard to do as early as turn 3.
Combo Druid is even easier to play than Secret Paladin. Drop minions, go face, repeat. Once the 2 card combo has been drawn, simply wait until you have enough mana to play them for an easy 16+ damage from hand, should some minions still be on the board, which isn't that hard to achieve with cards like Haunted Creeper, Piloted Shredder, Shade of Naxxramas and the like. Due to cards like Innervate, Wild Growth and Darnassus Aspirant, achieving the required amount of mana is easy as well. So the bottom line of this deck is drop whatever minion you draw, go face, play combo.
Both of these decks are absolutely non-interactive and require only minimal skill to be successful with. If anything, they solely rely on half decent draw for wins. That, in my opinion is what makes the current Tier 1 decks worse than most previous Tier 1 decks. Every player, no matter how unskilled can easily achieve Legend rank by simply showing perseverance with a mindless, super easy to play deck which is hard to counter and requires perfect draw to beat.
Edit: To get back to the initial statement about having trouble with netdeckes, the current Tier 1 decks don't have that small flaw to them. Compared to picking up Aggro Shaman or Handlock for the first time and failing miserably at them, Secret Paladin and Combo Druid can be played by anyone at any skill level with no fear of stumbling upon this issue. I don't mind if people get Legend or get to Legend with a netdeck. I am happy for them. But if they reach legend with a netdeck that requires practice and skill or reach it with an autopilot deck, that's two very different things in my opinion. That is the real issue in the meta right now.
Preach it. Although I'm on the side of the fence that believes freeze mage played right might as well be solitaire, at least it forces you to think. You know, I did want paladin secrets to be a thing, but not in a way that rewards mindlessness. I don't hate secret paladin because its a good deck, I hate how it can win with a virtually mindless pilot. Druid is even worse, because even if secret paladin is nerfed, as long as Force of Nature exists, it will always be a threat, sneaking up on a control heavy meta every opportunity it has.
Edit: To get back to the initial statement about having trouble with netdeckes, the current Tier 1 decks don't have that small flaw to them. Compared to picking up Aggro Shaman or Handlock for the first time and failing miserably at them, Secret Paladin and Combo Druid can be played by anyone at any skill level with no fear of stumbling upon this issue. I don't mind if people get Legend or get to Legend with a netdeck. I am happy for them. But if they reach legend with a netdeck that requires practice and skill or reach it with an autopilot deck, that's two very different things in my opinion. That is the real issue in the meta right now.
Yeah, I agree with this. The problem isn't powerful decks that can outshine all others in terms of winrates, we don't have any decks ala old grim patron anymore. In terms of attainable power, the meta isn't too bad... it's perhaps a bit stale because some decks polarize it immensely.
What we have now are some very powerful yet very simple decks to play. I'd say secret pally is in a class of it's own though, combo druid might have an easy finisher... but in the hands of not-so-good players the deck can actually be fairly inconsistent (though still strong versus players of similar skill of course).
I agree. The problem is that current decks are too easy to run and are too forgiving. That results in a meta which is flooded by secret paladins in a way no deck managed before. Patron Warrior was a stronger deck than the current secret pally, but it wasn't that common on ranks above 5 because most people were not able to pilot it correctly. If all classes were equally strong and balanced, there would be no such thing as tier 1. I know that it is hardly possible, but the tier 1 decks should at least require more skill than lower ones.
And Combo Druid isn't that awful in my opinion. The combo is incredible and is an issue, thats true - but it's way less retarded than MC. Druid games usually usually decided by turn 9, while SP already manages to win the game on turn 6. 3 less turns to draw cards and to develop a board.
I don't hate Tier 1 decks for the sake of them being Tier 1. I hate when the specific Tier 1 decks either don't require any skill or are incredibly easy to be successful with. Netdecking as such is quite odd for me. I played a lot of different shaman decks, most of which were either decks I created myself or variations of netdecks. When Aggro Shaman became super popular and ended up being the first Tier 1 Shaman deck since forever, I was quite happy and decided that it would be a good opportunity to play my favorite class with great success.
I am not much of an aggro player, so because someone else came up with the deck and the type of deck didn't quite fit me, I was not very successful in playing it. I also didn't enjoy it very much. I ended up deleting the deck after 20 or so games with it.
I think this applies to more people than me. In times where Handlock was very popular, I would see quite a few misplays by opponents. Same goes for Freeze Mage. These decks, where powerful, still require some skill, knowledge and finesse to play well. When people mindlessly netdeck the most popular deck, oftentimes it's easy to beat them because they didn't create the deck they felt like playing or enjoy playing, but instead just copy pasted someone else's list. That would naturally result in some people being unable to handle the decks properly and their success with the deck to be sub-optimal.
The current dominant Secret Paladin and Combo Druid decks have nothing in common with Handlock or Freeze Mage, where tactics and skill are required for success. That is what annoys me about them. It doesn't matter how much you maintain board control all game against these decks. It doesn't matter how your opponent is sitting at 2 health at the end of the match when your portrait blows up. These decks have no concern for the board state or their health pool.
Secret Paladin is incredibly simple to play. It pretty much runs on autopilot. Drop a couple of weak minions, drop a Mysterious Challenger, Dr. Boom and Tirion Fordring, easy win. Secret Paladin barely offers any good choices to be made against them. Avenge punishes players for trading, Competitive Spirit punishes them for not trading. Noble Sacrifice makes trading less predictable if used in conjunction with Avenge, because you won't know which minion will be buffed. Not only that, but with cards like Muster for Battle and Haunted Creeper, it is in most cases hard to maintain a higher number of minions on the board than the Paladin. If Avenge and Noble Sacrifice are up, and the Paladin played Muster for Battle, you'll have to deal with 4 minions which can be really, really hard to do as early as turn 3.
Combo Druid is even easier to play than Secret Paladin. Drop minions, go face, repeat. Once the 2 card combo has been drawn, simply wait until you have enough mana to play them for an easy 16+ damage from hand, should some minions still be on the board, which isn't that hard to achieve with cards like Haunted Creeper, Piloted Shredder, Shade of Naxxramas and the like. Due to cards like Innervate, Wild Growth and Darnassus Aspirant, achieving the required amount of mana is easy as well. So the bottom line of this deck is drop whatever minion you draw, go face, play combo.
Both of these decks are absolutely non-interactive and require only minimal skill to be successful with. If anything, they solely rely on half decent draw for wins. That, in my opinion is what makes the current Tier 1 decks worse than most previous Tier 1 decks. Every player, no matter how unskilled can easily achieve Legend rank by simply showing perseverance with a mindless, super easy to play deck which is hard to counter and requires perfect draw to beat.
Edit: To get back to the initial statement about having trouble with netdeckes, the current Tier 1 decks don't have that small flaw to them. Compared to picking up Aggro Shaman or Handlock for the first time and failing miserably at them, Secret Paladin and Combo Druid can be played by anyone at any skill level with no fear of stumbling upon this issue. I don't mind if people get Legend or get to Legend with a netdeck. I am happy for them. But if they reach legend with a netdeck that requires practice and skill or reach it with an autopilot deck, that's two very different things in my opinion. That is the real issue in the meta right now.
I really think the word non-interactive is being misused here and in many other posts. It suggests that these decks do not care about board state or do not trade, as if they are a face deck. These decks do care about these thing, and do them well. You can interact with any creature on the board. Of course the force of nature combo is the one non-interactive aspect. The secrets too are very interactive, whether they come from MC or not. I've won on turn three before, due to a priest playing a deathlord right into a repentance. In fact druid still has some trouble building a early game board. Just how do you mean non-interactive?
And Combo Druid isn't that awful in my opinion. The combo is incredible and is an issue, thats true - but it's way less retarded than MC. Druid games usually usually decided by turn 9, while SP already manages to win the game on turn 6. 3 less turns to draw cards and to develop a board.
Here's where I have to disagree with you based on one particular difference between these two decks. If by the time the Secret Paladin drops Mysterious Challenger you have built an impressive board and established board control, you can still win the game or at least trade well. If Mysterious Challenger gets dropped on an empty board and you have a weapon equipped and 2-3 minions on the board, you're in most cases still good to go.
A Combo Druid on the other hand completely ignores the board state (unless there's a taunt, which Keeper of the Grove can take care of) and finishes the game with a big burst of damage, no matter how low his health is and no matter how many minions you have on the board / how few are on his.
To counter Secret Paladin, in theory all you need is a lot of board clear and strong, sticky minions to be prepared for when Mysterious Challenger drops. Against Combo Druid you need taunts (which in most cases are low value minions) or heals (again, in most cases low value cards), which, if you include them in your deck don't allow you room for weapons/control spells and actual good minions to control the board. If you taunt and heal up, eventually they will simply steamroll you with a full board. If on the other hand you control the board heavily, they will simply slap your face with their combo eventually.
I really think the word non-interactive is being misused here and in many other posts. It suggests that these decks do not care about board state or do not trade, as if they are a face deck. These decks do care about these thing, and do them well. You can interact with any creature on the board. Of course the force of nature combo is the one non-interactive aspect. The secrets too are very interactive, whether they come from MC or not. I've won on turn three before, due to a priest playing a deathlord right into a repentance. In fact druid still has some trouble building a early game board. Just how do you mean non-interactive?
I think "non-interactive" is mostly used as a term for "predictable action which can't be countered by the opponent". It has nothing to do with the board interactions. For example the freeze mage burst can only be delayed by Loatheb. It makes people feel helpless.
@Kas: I'd say it all depends on the deck you play. With renolock I have no major issues with druid, because all I need to do is to keep out of their lethal range after turn 7. Hellfire, twisting nether and other removals help keeping the board clean. Wiht midrange hunter for example you are really screwed.
But druid has no comeback mechanics at all. While MC and tirion are perfect comeback cards on their own. I lost many games against paladin after regaining board control and recovering from turn 6 due to low health and a topdecked quicksilver champion to the face.
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The thing about card games is the largest amount of skill goes into crafting a deck, rather than playing it. Of course now we have meta data and statistics that make the process of finding the best card combinations much easier. As far deck interaction goes, Secret Pally is very interactable, as most of its cards are put down on the board rather than being spells that are keep in hand most of the time. Mid-range is intractable too expect for the obvious savage/force of nature combo. While fun is subjective, I will say I have never not had fun winning.
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if you want to preform well in a game over having fun playing the game.... i feel sorry for you. go play your tier1 deck and win without using one single braincell
Because every single fucking time on turn 6 my thought process is: If he doesn't play Dr. 6 I might win. And then he coins Dr. Boom.
Jeffrey Shih: Tearlessly Fapping since 1987
S32 Legend - Control Warrior
S33 Legend - Aggro Jade Shaman
S34 Rank 5 on Day 1 - Ronald Mage
Because the curve is simply extremely boring...
Can't put out your full mana pool worth of cards this turn?
Too bad. You lost to a deck that does.
Like Secret Paladin.
Got 24 health as a control deck versus a Druid who innervated out Shade of Naxramas on turn 1..?
Too bad. You lose on turn 9, no matter what you do, if he has got the combo.
Between burst and value... the chance of catching up or defending is simply not there:
There are no minions that counter on-curve minions: Drop a minion one turn too late, and it dies to your opponent's on-curve minion while that minion survives.
There are no spells or minions that counter burst, except warrior spells and minions.
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My mandibles which are capable of pressing down and tearing, my talons which are known to intercept and hold.
I refuse to play tier 1 decks, based solely one the fact that I want to EARN my wins, not have the win handed to me on a platter just because I hit my curve. Secret paladins and combo druids are especially notorious for this, but I could mention other decks as well. Before someone says I dont know what Im talking about, do know that I have been playing since beta, I have 3726 total wins in ranked and Ive played those matchups hundreds and hundreds of times. I did reach legend in september with a paladin homebrew, (midrangish), no mysterious challenger. That was just to get the cardback, nowadays I stop at rank 5, just for the chest.
Its beyond bad game design that you should get "free" wins like this, but what is even worse is, that the community jump on every free win opportunity like its candy on halloween. Then you open up twitch and see that the so called "pros" are playing free win decks as well. Only a small handful of these pros are actually worthy of the title "pro" in my oppinion. Its almost like playing golf where your opponent has a handicap, which you didnt agree upon before the match started. Honestly, Hearthstone may be the first competitive game in game history ,where players are actually rewarded for lack of creatitivy and the ability to problem solve. To me, playing tier 1 is like taking the easy way out, I want a challenge, not easy mode.
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My mandibles which are capable of pressing down and tearing, my talons which are known to intercept and hold.
I don't hate Tier 1 decks for the sake of them being Tier 1. I hate when the specific Tier 1 decks either don't require any skill or are incredibly easy to be successful with. Netdecking as such is quite odd for me. I played a lot of different shaman decks, most of which were either decks I created myself or variations of netdecks. When Aggro Shaman became super popular and ended up being the first Tier 1 Shaman deck since forever, I was quite happy and decided that it would be a good opportunity to play my favorite class with great success.
I am not much of an aggro player, so because someone else came up with the deck and the type of deck didn't quite fit me, I was not very successful in playing it. I also didn't enjoy it very much. I ended up deleting the deck after 20 or so games with it.
I think this applies to more people than me. In times where Handlock was very popular, I would see quite a few misplays by opponents. Same goes for Freeze Mage. These decks, where powerful, still require some skill, knowledge and finesse to play well. When people mindlessly netdeck the most popular deck, oftentimes it's easy to beat them because they didn't create the deck they felt like playing or enjoy playing, but instead just copy pasted someone else's list. That would naturally result in some people being unable to handle the decks properly and their success with the deck to be sub-optimal.
The current dominant Secret Paladin and Combo Druid decks have nothing in common with Handlock or Freeze Mage, where tactics and skill are required for success. That is what annoys me about them. It doesn't matter how much you maintain board control all game against these decks. It doesn't matter how your opponent is sitting at 2 health at the end of the match when your portrait blows up. These decks have no concern for the board state or their health pool.
Secret Paladin is incredibly simple to play. It pretty much runs on autopilot. Drop a couple of weak minions, drop a Mysterious Challenger, Dr. Boom and Tirion Fordring, easy win. Secret Paladin barely offers any good choices to be made against them. Avenge punishes players for trading, Competitive Spirit punishes them for not trading. Noble Sacrifice makes trading less predictable if used in conjunction with Avenge, because you won't know which minion will be buffed. Not only that, but with cards like Muster for Battle and Haunted Creeper, it is in most cases hard to maintain a higher number of minions on the board than the Paladin. If Avenge and Noble Sacrifice are up, and the Paladin played Muster for Battle, you'll have to deal with 4 minions which can be really, really hard to do as early as turn 3.
Combo Druid is even easier to play than Secret Paladin. Drop minions, go face, repeat. Once the 2 card combo has been drawn, simply wait until you have enough mana to play them for an easy 16+ damage from hand, should some minions still be on the board, which isn't that hard to achieve with cards like Haunted Creeper, Piloted Shredder, Shade of Naxxramas and the like. Due to cards like Innervate, Wild Growth and Darnassus Aspirant, achieving the required amount of mana is easy as well. So the bottom line of this deck is drop whatever minion you draw, go face, play combo.
Both of these decks are absolutely non-interactive and require only minimal skill to be successful with. If anything, they solely rely on half decent draw for wins. That, in my opinion is what makes the current Tier 1 decks worse than most previous Tier 1 decks. Every player, no matter how unskilled can easily achieve Legend rank by simply showing perseverance with a mindless, super easy to play deck which is hard to counter and requires perfect draw to beat.
Edit: To get back to the initial statement about having trouble with netdeckes, the current Tier 1 decks don't have that small flaw to them. Compared to picking up Aggro Shaman or Handlock for the first time and failing miserably at them, Secret Paladin and Combo Druid can be played by anyone at any skill level with no fear of stumbling upon this issue. I don't mind if people get Legend or get to Legend with a netdeck. I am happy for them. But if they reach legend with a netdeck that requires practice and skill or reach it with an autopilot deck, that's two very different things in my opinion. That is the real issue in the meta right now.
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I don't hate tier1 decks, but I hate too good and too bad cards and interactions.
Some cards are just too much tempo and value with no downsides. Thats just isn't right. Slightly nerfing such broken cards would allow more decks to be tier1, leading to more diverse meta.
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