The scientist is just the slap in the face on top of the other ridiculousness. Mad Scientist is the least frustrating part of the deck. At least then the secret is random and they didn't get to purposefully screw you. It's the fact that you have to waste cards and play sub-optimally just to get rid of 3 cost cards. Want to play a kick ass spell that could save you and give you a win? Not until you check with something else and waste the mana you needed because it could be Spellbender or Counterspell. Want to stay alive with a good minion? Not until you add to the problem with a chump. 3 mana is too low a cost for basically forcing your opponent to play badly or sacrifice at least 1 card.
Wow. The essence of this critique is that you can't play exactly as you would like to play because you must respond to your opponent? Unfathomable! I want to run 30 Pyroblast but for some reason the other guy decides to play cards on turns 1-9, WTF Blizz! Now I can't "play a kick ass spell that could save me and win me the game" because I have to play sub-optimally, aka actually responding to my opponents moves!
These cards cost 3 mana because they assume there is some chance, even if that chance is apparently remote against a certain level of opponent, that they could be triggered favorably. 3 mana to Vaporize your Molten Giant? QQ, card is OP! Oh, you threw it on the battlefield immediately instead of playing Leper Gnome first to waste his 3-mana secret on your 2-mana 2/1? Well, maybe that wasn't, you know, optimal.
seeing a new, competitive deckstyle is no reason to scream OP.
If the deck is based around deliberate cheesiness and annoyance it is as far as I'm concerned.
Well, before you say so, let's wait and see if Secret Mage becomes the next Hunter and covers 40% of the meta in a month's time.
Anyway, what deck is non-cheesy in your opinion?
Some people say Priest is annoying since they turn your cards against you (and conveniently ignore all the times they Thoughtsteal that Deadly Poison);
Some say Warrior because the games take, and I quote, "far longer than necessary" to finish (who defines the necessary time, the Warrior or his opponent?);
Some say Warlock because Zoo is all *no-skill* and Handlock had minions too big to beat (how do I kill that 4/10 Twilight Drake? I can't be Shaman because of Hunters! :'( );
Decks that force you to think are good. Long games aren't bad, they are better than being rushed down in 3 minutes by the perfect draw from zoo. Decks that are designed to waste your cards and completely undermine your play are not good.
Decks that force you to think are good. Long games aren't bad, they are better than being rushed down in 3 minutes by the perfect draw from zoo. Decks that are designed to waste your cards and completely undermine your play are not good.
But they force you to think about what cards to play to combat their secrets, so by your definition the deck is good.
Decks that force you to think are good. Long games aren't bad, they are better than being rushed down in 3 minutes by the perfect draw from zoo. Decks that are designed to waste your cards and completely undermine your play are not good.
That's exactly what Secret Mage is. Control/Tempo, but definitely not rush. And a lot of thinking is generally required - it is sometimes better to Counterspell + Fireblast, or example, instead of Sludge Belcher by observing your opponent's play. Secret Mage definitely asks for very much analysis on both the Mage and her opponent's sides --> your definition of a good deck?
Also, wasting your cards? Hah. You also 'waste' cards when playing four 3/2s into Consecration, Innervate-ing an Ancient of War into Hex, charging a Doomguard into Freezing Trap. But that's suboptimal play on your part, not your opponent pulling those cards onto the battlefield. There's always the element of mystery in Hearthstone - your opponent's hand. Does he have the second Shadow Word: Death? Did he Thoughtsteal a third from me? That's not too different from a Secret, it's just that many players just don't bother to observe these nuances.
And of course a Secret works differently than that, if you're going to argue. It's a whole different mechanic! But it definitely doesn't force you to waste your cards. Secrets are generally designed to be weaker than non-Secret cards of the same mana cost. That guess required by the opponent is factored into there already. If you play well, you are guaranteed a good trade - you can be the one forcing the Mage to waste her Mirror Entity on a Webspinner.
About the Mad Scientist, that's a huge risk in secret heavy deck. Play it early and get a mirror entity? Hooray, spell wasted on a 2-drop. Sure, Mad Scientist is pretty hard value, but can waste the important secrets pretty easily.
Pretty sure you don't play a secrets mage. That is almost exactly what I want to happen in my opener.
T1 Undertaker
T2 Scientist
T3 KT Mage into the Secret that I didn't post from the Scientist.
Having Counterspell/Entity up on T3 is super hot. =)
Ok, haven't played it that much this meta, but i guess it depends. I'd rather have a big juicy late game legendary with entity than possibly some random 1-2 drops, but i agree with the pretty aggressive opening.
If you are getting to late game you are probably going to be toast anyway. Depending on the opener I usually win by around 6-8.
You kill the Mad Scientist, the secret is brought out. You play a low cost minion in case it's Mirror. You attack with a low cost minion in case it's Vaporize, and try to tease out Ice Barrier. You focus fire their next drop (unless it's Summoner) in case it's Duplicate...(you pray they cast Mirror Image somewhere in there so you can kill one of those, instead of a Belcher or something similar)
If anything the Mad Scientist can be detrimental because it doesn't let the Mage play their secrets the way they want to.
Because, hey, none of the above? You just played your Ice Block lady, and I know it's there.
OR, if you notice you're hitting a lot of these....play a Hunter and run two Flares.
Iceblock is probably one of the worst secrets... For a single card you pretty much waste a complete turn where mage wreck you especially if your at low hp
I 100% Agree with having a way to deal with secrets through a neutral minion of some sort. While most of the time you can deal with mage secrets just fine and they seem like a waste of a card for them, there are certain circumstances that make them a little overpowered. For example, when you have very little spells in your deck and you really count on those spells to hold the deck together in certain moments of the game , but it gets counter-spelled the moment you use it, that is a little overpowered in some circumstances. Or, when you know its mirror entity and you have only really good minions in your hand, you feel like shit because if you play one it gets copied and if you dont you just die from spells and getting facerolled by his guys already on the board.
Those are just two examples of how secrets give too much reward for not enough cost. Secrets arent too overpowered, but they are a little.
It is actually the opposite: All classes should have access to Secrets. There really shouldn't be an entire class of card types that only X classes can use. This is also true of weapons. (You would just make Warrior/Rogue/Paladin/Shaman better at weapons and Hunter/Mage/Paladin better at Secrets, though I do wonder why Rogue doesn't have Secrets)
There should also be a neutral minion to take care of Secrets, but we don't need that much Secret hate. Other ways to interact with Secrets could be fun (Bounce a Secret?).
The thing about mage secret decks is that they sacrifice a lot to have those secrets in their deck. They are at the mercy of RNG and card draw, eg if they have kirin tor mage and no secret, if mad scientist drops a counterspell and it gets negated by a crappy spell or mirror entity copies some crappy 1 mana minion.
There's a lot that can and does go wrong with secrets, sure duplicating a sludge belcher or water elemental is a super powerful move but you might also duplicate a mad scientist twice and burn through all your secrets as you can't control what secret a mad scientist will throw out.
They also have to sacrifice minions to have all those extra spells.
Everyone keeps saying that secrets are fine. All the lines of logic you use to defend them exist in vacuums. Secrets would be fine by themselves, and the other ridiculous cards that Mage can play would be fine by themselves, but when you put them together it just takes the fun out of a match completely. I mean really? You deal with the annoyance of having to waste spells and minions to get rid of secrets "sub-optimally" you manage to have a chance and oh look, it's turn 7 by that point and Flamestrike crushes your hopes and dreams for any chance of winning. Mages are an annoyance now, but with Hunters soon to be out of the Meta almost entirely, they are about to become a plague on the Earth. We need secret removal before that happens, not after Blizzard does 2 months of study and we live through another meta like the one we've had to live through with Hunters being everywhere. I want to have a variance of games in my play, not just being forced to play one or two decks or classes to counter the one hot thing. I want Hearthstone to grow, not just constantly be a flavor of the month club. If the meta is constantly just playing whatever the cheesiest most annoying thing is the community will never grow as players and will always be filled with trolls and cheesemongers.
Everyone keeps saying that secrets are fine. All the lines of logic you use to defend them exist in vacuums. Secrets would be fine by themselves, and the other ridiculous cards that Mage can play would be fine by themselves, but when you put them together it just takes the fun out of a match completely. I mean really? You deal with the annoyance of having to waste spells and minions to get rid of secrets "sub-optimally" you manage to have a chance and oh look, it's turn 7 by that point and Flamestrike crushes your hopes and dreams for any chance of winning. Mages are an annoyance now, but with Hunters soon to be out of the Meta almost entirely, they are about to become a plague on the Earth. We need secret removal before that happens, not after Blizzard does 2 months of study and we live through another meta like the one we've had to live through with Hunters being everywhere. I want to have a variance of games in my play, not just being forced to play one or two decks or classes to counter the one hot thing. I want Hearthstone to grow, not just constantly be a flavor of the month club. If the meta is constantly just playing whatever the cheesiest most annoying thing is the community will never grow as players and will always be filled with trolls and cheesemongers.
I dunno man, there are so many viable decks in this game. I still maintain that control warrior is the strongest build in the game it's just everyone doesn't play it because you need like 10k dust to have all the good legendaries. Even priest is becoming quite potent now, you just have to play to the deck you're up against not just spam minions and wonder why they all die on turn 7. Flamestrike is a big commitment as you have to generally use all your mana for it, it clogs up your deck and once its gone, its gone so if you use it at the wrong time you'll get overrun. Soulpriest + circle of healing for 4 mana is wayyyyyy more brutal.
I know that I "think" the most with my mage deck. I play secret mage, tempo rogue, midrange shaman, and aggro paladin, so maybe it's just my deck choices. Tempo Rogue, just keep their board clear all day. Midrange shaman, just pray to win somehow with bloodlust lol. Aggro paladin, yolo all to face. Secret mage, you really have to work on out-maneuvering your opponent through the game. If you don't get mad scientist or Kirin Tor Mage + some secret, you can be in trouble. Many times, I've had both mad scientists in the last 10 cards of my deck (yes, my secret mage games usually go around that long haha). I am most at the mercy of RNG with my secret mage, but it is easily my favorite deck to play that requires the most thought process.
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Twitch name: Anatak15 NA Legend Season 48, 49, 52, 53, 54, 74
Then he goes on to complain about the deck that causes you to think the most. Sure, secret mage is a hard deck to play against. Sure, it is annoying. Is the deck unbeatable? Certainly not. There will always be good decks that are annoying to play against, there's no way around that. If we got rid of secrets then you would start complaining about priest and how they shouldn't be able to steal your cards all the time. If a deck becomes too strong then I hope blizzard will rebalance it, but right now I don't see anything particularly unbalanced about secrets mage. Decks like secrets mage and priest punish inexperienced players, forcing them to learn and not just play things all willy nilly, and I'm all for keeping noobs out of legend.
Why are secrets in this game? They aren't strategic, they are annoying and unbalanced. Not every class has access to them, and the ones that do have completely uneven amounts. "Well", you might say, "Not every class has weapons or heals and no one screams about it like this, you whiner." To that I say, "There are ways to get rid of weapons." Every deck in the game can run 2 oozes and Harrison Jones if they want. The only card in the game that gets rid of secrets is Flare. That is complete and total horsesh*t. Mage has so many secrets now it's impossible to even try to figure out what they have played, especially with multiple out at once thanks to the Mad Scientist and Kirin Tor Mage. There should not be any mechanic that lets you play a card face down. Even discards from overdraw are shown face up. How are you supposed to compete? If you some how manage to get an advantage after navigating Counterspell, Mirror Image, and Duplicate (wasting half your deck in the process) you just get Polymorphed and Fireballed out of existence. Still alive somehow? Don't worry, Flamestrike will fix that.
Secret Mage is the most annoying cheesy deck in existence. Zoo and Hunter are stoppable. You can heal or put up taunt walls and have a chance. Against Secret mage, you can't do jack. Want to heal? Counterspell! Want to play a taunt? Mirror image! It's stupid, pointless, and once hunter is nerfed out of existence next week, it will be the new Meta. People are talking about how Handlock will make a comeback, but Handlock is nearly powerless against Secret Mage.
Someone do something to make Blizzard stop this stupidity with secrets.
oh c-mon, you know how childfish that jamming about secret mages and stuff? You know you can play around mages. I play tempo rogue and i dont care about mage secrets. I admit they are annoying but they can be countered. Hand mage will be pain beacuse duplicate: get rid of giant, he get two and summons both next turn. You can still play around them if you know how to play. I've never lost single game against secret mage but against freeze mage i have lost. Ofc i maybe cant win always secret mages but so what? You need just practice there., nothing else. I always think carefully against them, if i think there is counter spell, i play spell that doesnt effect much to my deck. If i think there is secret which copies my monster, i play low monster in there. Ofc i wont have always these options what i told but thats part of game. Sometimes you have bad luck and hand against them, then just continue.
Every deck cant win them ofc but many decks can counter them too. Like control warrior,tempo rogue, control paladin etc. You just need think carefully and think what would be best card to play in that situation.
Wow. The essence of this critique is that you can't play exactly as you would like to play because you must respond to your opponent? Unfathomable! I want to run 30 Pyroblast but for some reason the other guy decides to play cards on turns 1-9, WTF Blizz! Now I can't "play a kick ass spell that could save me and win me the game" because I have to play sub-optimally, aka actually responding to my opponents moves!
These cards cost 3 mana because they assume there is some chance, even if that chance is apparently remote against a certain level of opponent, that they could be triggered favorably. 3 mana to Vaporize your Molten Giant? QQ, card is OP! Oh, you threw it on the battlefield immediately instead of playing Leper Gnome first to waste his 3-mana secret on your 2-mana 2/1? Well, maybe that wasn't, you know, optimal.
When I can't adapt to play vs a viable deck in the meta, I cry OP! <fixt>
Well, before you say so, let's wait and see if Secret Mage becomes the next Hunter and covers 40% of the meta in a month's time.
Anyway, what deck is non-cheesy in your opinion?
Some people say Priest is annoying since they turn your cards against you (and conveniently ignore all the times they Thoughtsteal that Deadly Poison);
Some say Warrior because the games take, and I quote, "far longer than necessary" to finish (who defines the necessary time, the Warrior or his opponent?);
Some say Rogue because Leeroy Jenkins + 2* Shadowstep is OP (and sadly no longer available, but soon the same will be heard about Southsea Deckhand + 2* Cold Blood + Faceless Manipulator or Malygos + Sinister Strike (+ Preparation + Fan of Knives/Blade Flurry/Eviscerate);
Some say Shaman because of ??? (not yet here - maybe Doomhammer + Rockbiter Weapon(s)? - but Shaman should rise up again after nerf, at which point we'll hear about Reincarnate + Baron Rivendare + Ancestral Spirit shenanigans or some other plays people come up with);
Some say Warlock because Zoo is all *no-skill* and Handlock had minions too big to beat (how do I kill that 4/10 Twilight Drake? I can't be Shaman because of Hunters! :'( );
Some say Paladin because they have "too many heals!" and they can't handle (or know how to avoid) the Equality + Consecration/Wild Pyromancer/Avenging Wrath boardclear;
Some say Druid because of Token OP (Violet Teacher + Innervate + Power of the Wild) / Ramp OP (Turn 3 Ancient of Lore into turn 4 Cairne Bloodhoof into turn 5 Ancient of War) / general OP (Force of Nature + Innervate + 2* Savage Roar);
Some say Hunter because *obvious*;
etc.
The fact is everyone has a kind of deck they hate, for personal reasons. That doesn't make all these decks OP.
Decks that force you to think are good. Long games aren't bad, they are better than being rushed down in 3 minutes by the perfect draw from zoo. Decks that are designed to waste your cards and completely undermine your play are not good.
BayushiKoso
But they force you to think about what cards to play to combat their secrets, so by your definition the deck is good.
Secrets are fine! They are a needed and interesting element to the game.
ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ
That's exactly what Secret Mage is. Control/Tempo, but definitely not rush. And a lot of thinking is generally required - it is sometimes better to Counterspell + Fireblast, or example, instead of Sludge Belcher by observing your opponent's play. Secret Mage definitely asks for very much analysis on both the Mage and her opponent's sides --> your definition of a good deck?
Also, wasting your cards? Hah. You also 'waste' cards when playing four 3/2s into Consecration, Innervate-ing an Ancient of War into Hex, charging a Doomguard into Freezing Trap. But that's suboptimal play on your part, not your opponent pulling those cards onto the battlefield. There's always the element of mystery in Hearthstone - your opponent's hand. Does he have the second Shadow Word: Death? Did he Thoughtsteal a third from me? That's not too different from a Secret, it's just that many players just don't bother to observe these nuances.
And of course a Secret works differently than that, if you're going to argue. It's a whole different mechanic! But it definitely doesn't force you to waste your cards. Secrets are generally designed to be weaker than non-Secret cards of the same mana cost. That guess required by the opponent is factored into there already. If you play well, you are guaranteed a good trade - you can be the one forcing the Mage to waste her Mirror Entity on a Webspinner.
Pretty sure you don't play a secrets mage. That is almost exactly what I want to happen in my opener.
T1 Undertaker
T2 Scientist
T3 KT Mage into the Secret that I didn't post from the Scientist.
Having Counterspell/Entity up on T3 is super hot. =)
If you are getting to late game you are probably going to be toast anyway. Depending on the opener I usually win by around 6-8.
Iceblock is probably one of the worst secrets... For a single card you pretty much waste a complete turn where mage wreck you especially if your at low hp
I 100% Agree with having a way to deal with secrets through a neutral minion of some sort. While most of the time you can deal with mage secrets just fine and they seem like a waste of a card for them, there are certain circumstances that make them a little overpowered. For example, when you have very little spells in your deck and you really count on those spells to hold the deck together in certain moments of the game , but it gets counter-spelled the moment you use it, that is a little overpowered in some circumstances. Or, when you know its mirror entity and you have only really good minions in your hand, you feel like shit because if you play one it gets copied and if you dont you just die from spells and getting facerolled by his guys already on the board.
Those are just two examples of how secrets give too much reward for not enough cost. Secrets arent too overpowered, but they are a little.
It is actually the opposite: All classes should have access to Secrets. There really shouldn't be an entire class of card types that only X classes can use. This is also true of weapons. (You would just make Warrior/Rogue/Paladin/Shaman better at weapons and Hunter/Mage/Paladin better at Secrets, though I do wonder why Rogue doesn't have Secrets)
There should also be a neutral minion to take care of Secrets, but we don't need that much Secret hate. Other ways to interact with Secrets could be fun (Bounce a Secret?).
Secrets are fine.
I thought that Hunter has the most secrets, now is it Mage or Hunter?
The thing about mage secret decks is that they sacrifice a lot to have those secrets in their deck. They are at the mercy of RNG and card draw, eg if they have kirin tor mage and no secret, if mad scientist drops a counterspell and it gets negated by a crappy spell or mirror entity copies some crappy 1 mana minion.
There's a lot that can and does go wrong with secrets, sure duplicating a sludge belcher or water elemental is a super powerful move but you might also duplicate a mad scientist twice and burn through all your secrets as you can't control what secret a mad scientist will throw out.
They also have to sacrifice minions to have all those extra spells.
Hunter never had the most secrets. It was originally Mage 6 to Hunter 5 (and Paladin 4), and is now Mage 7 to Hunter 5 and Paladin 5.
Everyone keeps saying that secrets are fine. All the lines of logic you use to defend them exist in vacuums. Secrets would be fine by themselves, and the other ridiculous cards that Mage can play would be fine by themselves, but when you put them together it just takes the fun out of a match completely. I mean really? You deal with the annoyance of having to waste spells and minions to get rid of secrets "sub-optimally" you manage to have a chance and oh look, it's turn 7 by that point and Flamestrike crushes your hopes and dreams for any chance of winning. Mages are an annoyance now, but with Hunters soon to be out of the Meta almost entirely, they are about to become a plague on the Earth. We need secret removal before that happens, not after Blizzard does 2 months of study and we live through another meta like the one we've had to live through with Hunters being everywhere. I want to have a variance of games in my play, not just being forced to play one or two decks or classes to counter the one hot thing. I want Hearthstone to grow, not just constantly be a flavor of the month club. If the meta is constantly just playing whatever the cheesiest most annoying thing is the community will never grow as players and will always be filled with trolls and cheesemongers.
BayushiKoso
I dunno man, there are so many viable decks in this game. I still maintain that control warrior is the strongest build in the game it's just everyone doesn't play it because you need like 10k dust to have all the good legendaries. Even priest is becoming quite potent now, you just have to play to the deck you're up against not just spam minions and wonder why they all die on turn 7. Flamestrike is a big commitment as you have to generally use all your mana for it, it clogs up your deck and once its gone, its gone so if you use it at the wrong time you'll get overrun. Soulpriest + circle of healing for 4 mana is wayyyyyy more brutal.
I know that I "think" the most with my mage deck. I play secret mage, tempo rogue, midrange shaman, and aggro paladin, so maybe it's just my deck choices. Tempo Rogue, just keep their board clear all day. Midrange shaman, just pray to win somehow with bloodlust lol. Aggro paladin, yolo all to face. Secret mage, you really have to work on out-maneuvering your opponent through the game. If you don't get mad scientist or Kirin Tor Mage + some secret, you can be in trouble. Many times, I've had both mad scientists in the last 10 cards of my deck (yes, my secret mage games usually go around that long haha). I am most at the mercy of RNG with my secret mage, but it is easily my favorite deck to play that requires the most thought process.
Twitch name: Anatak15
NA Legend Season 48, 49, 52, 53, 54, 74
Then he goes on to complain about the deck that causes you to think the most. Sure, secret mage is a hard deck to play against. Sure, it is annoying. Is the deck unbeatable? Certainly not. There will always be good decks that are annoying to play against, there's no way around that. If we got rid of secrets then you would start complaining about priest and how they shouldn't be able to steal your cards all the time. If a deck becomes too strong then I hope blizzard will rebalance it, but right now I don't see anything particularly unbalanced about secrets mage. Decks like secrets mage and priest punish inexperienced players, forcing them to learn and not just play things all willy nilly, and I'm all for keeping noobs out of legend.
oh c-mon, you know how childfish that jamming about secret mages and stuff? You know you can play around mages. I play tempo rogue and i dont care about mage secrets. I admit they are annoying but they can be countered. Hand mage will be pain beacuse duplicate: get rid of giant, he get two and summons both next turn. You can still play around them if you know how to play. I've never lost single game against secret mage but against freeze mage i have lost. Ofc i maybe cant win always secret mages but so what? You need just practice there., nothing else. I always think carefully against them, if i think there is counter spell, i play spell that doesnt effect much to my deck. If i think there is secret which copies my monster, i play low monster in there. Ofc i wont have always these options what i told but thats part of game. Sometimes you have bad luck and hand against them, then just continue.
Every deck cant win them ofc but many decks can counter them too. Like control warrior,tempo rogue, control paladin etc. You just need think carefully and think what would be best card to play in that situation.
Living and die by the blade