I feel like Star Aligner Druid is one tier above all the rest. I play Even Shaman and often DIE by their combo on turn 6-7. Getting killed by a combo deck while playing aggro feels dirty as hell.
Blizzard needs to nerf the psych melon just for wild's sake
Sorry to break it to you but even shaman is NOT an aggro deck. It's just mid range deck that relies on big bodies and easy board flood.
A truly aggro deck only plays a couple of small minions and then finishes off the opponent with burn / weapon damage. (like old face hunter / pirate warrior)
Edit: accidentally quoted multiple times . oops.
Nitpicking on the definition of aggro adds nothing to the conversation here... Besides I don't think ''true'' aggro decks by your standards even exist anymore, except maybe burn mage, and even there you're going to argue with me that it's a tempo deck.
Anyway, my point is that combo decks such as Star Aligner Druid should be vulnerable to aggressive decks such as Even Shaman, but they aren't, and that feels broken to me.
I don't understand how you are making conclusions like "Big Priest, which many of you described in a rough position recently. It appears it is not, safe as ever at the top.". The deck is quite weak against Combo Druids, especially Star Aligner Druid which are in abundance these days. And with a good draw and bit of luck even Odd Rogue can occasionally win against Big Priest.
From VS Meta Report that you, yourself have linked :
"Priest, as a class, has dropped significantly in popularity since the last report. Previously one of the top three classes in Wild, Priest falls to the bottom half of all classes in this report."
"Big Priest remains the class’ best option and is very powerful in the format despite its struggles against Combo Druid decks and a matchup spread that has grown to be quite polarizing."
So Big Priest is not all powerful deck that it once was, it is phasing out due to natural power creep and Blizzard not giving good cards to Priest for last two expansions. It has already fallen from high tier one after Naga Sea Witch nerf to low tier one; TS even lists Big Priest as tier two. Nerfing Big Priest will only unleash already dominate decks like Even Shaman.
As for Barnes, not all Big Priest decks play it. What about those who don't play Barnes ? Barnes becomes a big liability when you pull him from Shadow Essence and it gets in the resurrect pool.
If any deck needs a nerf, then it is called Even Shaman but that's highly unlikely.
Nitpicking on the definition of aggro adds nothing to the conversation here... Besides I don't think ''true'' aggro decks by your standards even exist anymore, except maybe burn mage, and even there you're going to argue with me that it's a tempo deck.
Anyway, my point is that combo decks such as Star Aligner Druid should be vulnerable to aggressive decks such as Even Shaman, but they aren't, and that feels broken to me.
My burn mage has a very favorable winrate against the combo druids. I suspect odd rogue is favored too
It's not just a matter of "can I kill them before they combo off as early as turn X" if you're playing such a deck. you can stick dangerous things to the board every turn and they are forced to deal with them instead of developing their own gameplan of ramping and drawing. This slows down the combo by a lot. Ice block helps too
Even shaman isn't the right kind of aggressive deck to threaten these druids. Your big threats only come down (conditionally) on turn 4 and your boards don't push much before then. Flamewreathed facelesses block you from dropping another threat on curve the turn after too. I used to play combo druid before it became OP this expansion and even shaman wasn't a huge issue for me, though I always win by doing druid things and exhausting the opponent of a hand rather than a combo. The ability to combo faster nowadays is just cherry on the cake
I don't understand how you are making conclusions like "Big Priest, which many of you described in a rough position recently. It appears it is not, safe as ever at the top.". The deck is quite weak against Combo Druids, especially Star Aligner Druid which are in abundance these days. And with a good draw and bit of luck even Odd Rogue can occasionally win against Big Priest.
From VS Meta Report that you, yourself have linked :
"Priest, as a class, has dropped significantly in popularity since the last report. Previously one of the top three classes in Wild, Priest falls to the bottom half of all classes in this report."
"Big Priest remains the class’ best option and is very powerful in the format despite its struggles against Combo Druid decks and a matchup spread that has grown to be quite polarizing."
So Big Priest is not all powerful deck that it once was, it is phasing out due to natural power creep and Blizzard not giving good cards to Priest for last two expansions. It has already fallen from high tier one after Naga Sea Witch nerf to low tier one; TS even lists Big Priest as tier two. Nerfing Big Priest will only unleash already dominate decks like Even Shaman.
As for Barnes, not all Big Priest decks play it. What about those who don't play Barnes ? Barnes becomes a big liability when you pull him from Shadow Essence and it gets in the resurrect pool.
If any deck needs a nerf, then it is called Even Shaman but that's highly unlikely.
Big Priest is t1 look at the stats in the report, both in high ranks and lower. It has how many bad matchups you want, and Priest may have dropped in popularity overall, but Big Priest is t1 - and it is telling that the top notch Priest deck is not Renopriest.
As you have seen in my OP, i was considering a wide set of nerfs, including Even Shaman (with hypotheses that are not meant to be the perfect nerfs either), not just with Big Priest. I am not picking on it (even tho i genuinely hate the deck), but you cannot defend it either - unless you entirely like Wild as it is (including Even Shaman).
Now, to divert from just Big Priest, i was also wandering: Juicy Psychmelon and even Star Aligner. Look at their texts. In the vacuum, they are very specific, almost clunky, they do not seem to be powerful just by accident... I mean, the more i look at them, the more i think that team5 is continuously breaking Wild... on purpose, or at least intendedly? Is this tinfoil hat stuff?
Seems to me like some people would rather play vanilla.
Actually, I would absolutely love to play vanilla in 2018. Or at least some older combination of expansion pools. Wild is great and all, but it's definitely not a place to play decks from the past
Seems to me like some people would rather play vanilla.
Of course some combination of cards are going to be more powerful that playing them solo.
And it's logical that a wider pool of cards will generate a larger number of powerful combinations.
Just because you don't like playing against some specific combo does not mean it must be removed from the game !
Especially in wild there are a lot of good ways to tech around pretty much any combo that I don't see them as a problem.
But problem in wild: druid has most powerfull draw in game...only class that can ramp...most powerfull armor gain in one turn (with warrior who actually has downside with gaining 10 armor)... And aviana+kun that can enable any OTK you want with little to 0 problem.... He can ramp and draw (tutors combo) so fast that vs control you are at 10 mana with all combo pieces in hand, but opponent is on 5 mybe 6 mana with one (if you are lucky) dirty rat.... Aviana was always problem in wild IMO. Nowdays even two of dirty rats arent enough cause they dont use only 4-6 minions like maly druid.... With more and more cards added this aviana will be a huge problem in future....if you wanna balanced otk decks you just CAN'T give that classes so much armor, draw, ramp, "combo enabler" (aviana) and SP.....
Change aviana: your minions cost 3.... With 2xinervate you will be able to play kun and more 3 big minions in one turn.... Would still be powerfull card
Or: minons that 5 or more now cost 3, minons that cost less then 5 cost 1....
No more fcking 10 minions in one turn that kills YOU AND YOUR WHOLE BOARD...on freaking TURN 6!!!
Aviana is problem like naga was!!! Oppresive vs control like naga was...in wild there is mostly combo druid and aggro...what is control? I have never heard for that word xD
Im control player yes... But before BDP i had a chance vs combo decks...now i have like 20% wr against star druid even if i have: dirty rat, demonic project, bran, glinda, gnomeferatu in deck... I was dead on turn 6 many times and i mybe drew few times gnomeferatu or dirty rat in time..but how many time dirty rat pulled combo piece?? 4 times in last (around) 20 games....because they have hand full of minions...and gnomeferatu is useless if not drawn on turn 2 cause of 4 mana draw your freaking most important cards for combo.... XD
Can we also talk about the fact that the Tier 3 is completely missing? xDD That means that either your deck is Tier 1 or 2 worthy, or your deck is pretty trashy and it is tier 4 or lower.
Can we also talk about the fact that the Tier 3 is completely missing? xDD That means that either your deck is Tier 1 or 2 worthy, or your deck is pretty trashy and it is tier 4 or lower.
Indeed, and this is awful for the deckbuilding and homebrewing potential that we are used to attribute to Wild.
Sure, you could build an off-meta deck that actually has t2 power (Deathrattle Hunter anyone? Or what about Token Druid?), but room for "inventing" seems to be very limited, despite the increasing size of the whole Wild collection.
And well, the whole group of t1 tyrants up there are the main cause of this: so much powercreep and so high powerlevels, that in the end too many cards become obsolete.
Big Priest is t1 look at the stats in the report, both in high ranks and lower. It has how many bad matchups you want, and Priest may have dropped in popularity overall, but Big Priest is t1 - and it is telling that the top notch Priest deck is not Renopriest.
It's lower t1 on VS and t2 on TempoStorm. Also drop in popularity clearly means the is deck is not as good as it once was otherwise everyone would be playing it.
As you have seen in my OP, i was considering a wide set of nerfs, including Even Shaman (with hypotheses that are not meant to be the perfect nerfs either), not just with Big Priest. I am not picking on it (even tho i genuinely hate the deck), but you cannot defend it either - unless you entirely like Wild as it is (including Even Shaman).
Of course you hate Big Priest, because it is the only thing stopping Even Shaman from going completely insane. And I can defend Big Priest because it's not the best in Wild, it's it not even in top 5. First nerf those 5 decks, we can talk about Big Priest after that.
Now, to divert from just Big Priest, i was also wandering: Juicy Psychmelon and even Star Aligner. Look at their texts. In the vacuum, they are very specific, almost clunky, they do not seem to be powerful just by accident... I mean, the more i look at them, the more i think that team5 is continuously breaking Wild... on purpose, or at least intendedly? Is this tinfoil hat stuff?
Yeah, Star Aligner looks bad in vacuum but not Juicy Psychmelon, that card looks and is very strong. I agree that Blizzard doesn't care about wild but I don't think they could have predicted this broken Star Aligner combo. After the release of Juicy Psychmelon, everybody thought it would see play in Maly and Togwaggle Druid but nobody predicted Star Aligner Druid.
Big Priest is t1 look at the stats in the report, both in high ranks and lower. It has how many bad matchups you want, and Priest may have dropped in popularity overall, but Big Priest is t1 - and it is telling that the top notch Priest deck is not Renopriest.
It's lower t1 on VS and t2 on TempoStorm. Also drop in popularity clearly means the is deck is not as good as it once was otherwise everyone would be playing it.
As you have seen in my OP, i was considering a wide set of nerfs, including Even Shaman (with hypotheses that are not meant to be the perfect nerfs either), not just with Big Priest. I am not picking on it (even tho i genuinely hate the deck), but you cannot defend it either - unless you entirely like Wild as it is (including Even Shaman).
Of course you hate Big Priest, because it is the only thing stopping Even Shaman from going completely insane. And I can defend Big Priest because it's not the best in Wild, it's it not even in top 5. First nerf those 5 decks, we can talk about Big Priest after that.
Now, to divert from just Big Priest, i was also wandering: Juicy Psychmelon and even Star Aligner. Look at their texts. In the vacuum, they are very specific, almost clunky, they do not seem to be powerful just by accident... I mean, the more i look at them, the more i think that team5 is continuously breaking Wild... on purpose, or at least intendedly? Is this tinfoil hat stuff?
Yeah, Star Aligner looks bad in vacuum but not Juicy Psychmelon, that card looks and is very strong. I agree that Blizzard doesn't care about wild but I don't think they could have predicted this broken Star Aligner combo. After the release of Juicy Psychmelon, everybody thought it would see play in Maly and Togwaggle Druid but nobody predicted Star Aligner Druid.
Can you please realise I actually suggested nerfs for ALL the t1 decks I mentioned (restricted to 4-L ranks), as from VS report, including Even Shaman?
For the sake of precision, if you actually read the whole VS report, you'd see that Big Priest is 5,07% of all-ranks population, Odd Rogue is 3,52%, and they are both top tier decks (Odd Rogue is actually higher in wr). So no, population is not a factor in the deck tier level.
Most importantly, this thread is not about nerfing Big Priest, or any other single deck. It is not even about defending one.
This is a thread trying to discuss whether it is healthy, and ultimately fun, to have so much powerlevel continuously accumulating in Wild, given the results in the meta.
You can say everything is fine as it is for you, it's an acceptable position, even better if argumented, but biased posts are BS here.
Can we also talk about the fact that the Tier 3 is completely missing? xDD That means that either your deck is Tier 1 or 2 worthy, or your deck is pretty trashy and it is tier 4 or lower.
Indeed, and this is awful for the deckbuilding and homebrewing potential that we are used to attribute to Wild.
Sure, you could build an off-meta deck that actually has t2 power (Deathrattle Hunter anyone? Or what about Token Druid?), but room for "inventing" seems to be very limited, despite the increasing size of the whole Wild collection.
And well, the whole group of t1 tyrants up there are the main cause of this: so much powercreep and so high powerlevels, that in the end too many cards become obsolete.
The room for inventing is limited because people don't like to experiment. At least thats my explanation. Wild playerbase is at 10% size compared to Standard and I doubt that even 0,5 % experiments with the decks. Then there are dedicated deckbuilders that are experimenting and are bringing consistent lists ( Gunnolf for example. Sometimes me when I post a serious deck xD and others of course too) I even decided to make a segment dedicated to Wild Tier 2 underdogs to bring some variety. But I don't think that a lot of things will change if people won't experiment a lot. I truly believe that there are some undiscovered decks and we just need to disover them or revisit the old ones. I think that Midrange Dragon Warrior could do some damage to the meta. Anyfin Paladin and others too.
I'm not convinced that there is some undiscovered Tier 1 deck. Current ones are really strong. They are just really powerfull and if they were in Standard they would be Tier S worthy. Then we have Tier 2 decks that are strong but not strong enough to be considered broken in every matchup. I guess there are at least 5 decks that can be discovered. And then there is a huge gap and Tier 4 decks. Which is not ok. Maybe we could try and build some Tier 3 decks or somethin? Because I don't see how would nerf solve the Tier 1 and 2 issue. How would you nerf Even Shaman, Odd decks or Renolock? Several cards should be nerfed in order to make them at least a little bit weaker. They will still be strong because of the different packages and cards.
For example, if i had to nerf Even Shaman, Things from Below is a good candidate: soft, remove taunt; hard, make it (7) mana. Or Devolve to (3).
I mean, these nerfs would require much more data than i can access to. Playrate of cards, their individual wr, etc. Far from easy.
And yes, i think that, if if nerf it should be, then it should be a large set of small ones.
As of discoveries, i definitely agree: on one hand the smaller pool of players, and maybe their inherent laziness ;p does not help. But most importantly, there is probably very little to discover.
But the reason is indeed that a higher powerlevel in Wild leads to a very restricted set of "meta cards", despite the larger set of available cards. It's a sort of paradox, but that's what we are seeing so far. It's like a warping black hole: with more releases the average powerlevel does not shift between decks, it goes up and up - and unrelated cards are left behind, together with their archetypes.
Theoretically, some forgotten archetypes should be able to catch up, given enough support, but it would take increasingly longer (more and more releases, since powerlevel never falls down), and the process would still be uncertain: Malygos Druid is an example.
I should add that i really dislike nerfs as a solution. But i dislike a suffocating Wild more.
Can you please realise I actually suggested nerfs for ALL the t1 decks I mentioned (restricted to 4-L ranks), as from VS report, including Even Shaman?
Can you please realise that I am actually trying to tell you that Big Priest is not clear cut Tier one as you might think ? it no doubt was tier one after Naga Sea Witch nerf but not currently. Not with so many combo Druids.
For the sake of precision, if you actually read the whole VS report, you'd see that Big Priest is 5,07% of all-ranks population, Odd Rogue is 3,52%, and they are both top tier decks (Odd Rogue is actually higher in wr). So no, population is not a factor in the deck tier level.
Are you kidding me ? No seriously, you said "[...]nerfs for ALL the t1 decks I mentioned (restricted to 4-L ranks)." and now you are using data from all ranks. If you want to nerf t1 decks from ranks 4-L then use the data from those ranks, not from all ranks.
For ranks 4 - L, the data is : Star Aligner Druid - 11%, Even Shaman - 16%, Reno Warlock - 11%, Odd Rogue - 6%, Aluenth Mage - 6%, Odd Pally - 6% and Big Priest - 5%. Please use correct data.
Apart from that, I was talking to decline in the "population" of Big Priests, which comparing from last VS report is -3.18%. This is the biggest decline (apart from Odd Rogue?) when compared with other t1 decks from last meta, and you still want to nerf Big Priest even more ? Clearly shows who is more biased.
Most importantly, this thread is not about nerfing Big Priest, or any other single deck. It is not even about defending one.
This is a thread trying to discuss whether it is healthy, and ultimately fun, to have so much powerlevel continuously accumulating in Wild, given the results in the meta.
Yes, yes that's what I am telling. Nerfing Big Priest won't solve your problems because it's not part of the problem.
You can say everything is fine as it is for you, it's an acceptable position, even better if argumented, but biased posts are BS here.
Since you have used contradictory and fake data in your last post, I think we should postpone the discussion of who is more biased.
Can you please realise I actually suggested nerfs for ALL the t1 decks I mentioned (restricted to 4-L ranks), as from VS report, including Even Shaman?
Can you please realise that I am actually trying to tell you that Big Priest is not clear cut Tier one as you might think ? it no doubt was tier one after Naga Sea Witch nerf but not currently. Not with so many combo Druids.
For the sake of precision, if you actually read the whole VS report, you'd see that Big Priest is 5,07% of all-ranks population, Odd Rogue is 3,52%, and they are both top tier decks (Odd Rogue is actually higher in wr). So no, population is not a factor in the deck tier level.
Are you kidding me ? No seriously, you said "[...]nerfs for ALL the t1 decks I mentioned (restricted to 4-L ranks)." and now you are using data from all ranks. If you want to nerf t1 decks from ranks 4-L then use the data from those ranks, not from all ranks.
For ranks 4 - L, the data is : Star Aligner Druid - 11%, Even Shaman - 16%, Reno Warlock - 11%, Odd Rogue - 6%, Aluenth Mage - 6%, Odd Pally - 6% and Big Priest - 5%. Please use correct data.
Apart from that, I was talking to decline in the "population" of Big Priests, which comparing from last VS report is -3.18%. This is the biggest decline (apart from Odd Rogue?) when compared with other t1 decks from last meta, and you still want to nerf Big Priest even more ? Clearly shows who is more biased.
Most importantly, this thread is not about nerfing Big Priest, or any other single deck. It is not even about defending one.
This is a thread trying to discuss whether it is healthy, and ultimately fun, to have so much powerlevel continuously accumulating in Wild, given the results in the meta.
Yes, yes that's what I am telling. Nerfing Big Priest won't solve your problems because it's not part of the problem.
You can say everything is fine as it is for you, it's an acceptable position, even better if argumented, but biased posts are BS here.
Since you have used contradictory and fake data in your last post, I think we should postpone the discussion of who is more biased.
I am really sorry for you man, but you keep failing to read throughout my OP and following posts.
I am not even trying to explain, as you are unable to understand. You are just nitpicking in order to prevail. But this is not a challenge of who got it longer.
Please stop posting further, you are polluting the thread without contributing. Thank you.
I am not even trying to explain, as you are unable to understand. You are just nitpicking in order to prevail. But this is not a challenge of who got it longer.
That's not nitpicking, you made a big blunder by using wrong data set. Now don't blame for not understanding this thread, you had a clear flaw in your interpretation of the VS report. So I thought I could clear some things out, but alas! what a fool I am for thinking you really wanted "clean and constructive discussion".
Please stop posting further, you are polluting the thread without contributing. Thank you.
No you had the wrong opinion that "Big Priest, which many of you described in a rough position recently. It appears it is not, safe as ever at the top. Again, we had tons of discussions, and i think we all agree that at the very least, Barnes needs a nerf." which I tried to refute by showing that neither your own data nor pro players think Big Priest is as good as it was before and it doesn't need a nerf, let alone a bad nerf like of Barnes.
But not I am "polluting the thread". Next time please add a disclaimer that threads like this are for circlejerking and I won't be bothered.
For example, if i had to nerf Even Shaman, Things from Below is a good candidate: soft, remove taunt; hard, make it (7) mana. Or Devolve to (3).
I mean, these nerfs would require much more data than i can access to. Playrate of cards, their individual wr, etc. Far from easy.
And yes, i think that, if if nerf it should be, then it should be a large set of small ones.
As of discoveries, i definitely agree: on one hand the smaller pool of players, and maybe their inherent laziness ;p does not help. But most importantly, there is probably very little to discover.
But the reason is indeed that a higher powerlevel in Wild leads to a very restricted set of "meta cards", despite the larger set of available cards. It's a sort of paradox, but that's what we are seeing so far. It's like a warping black hole: with more releases the average powerlevel does not shift between decks, it goes up and up - and unrelated cards are left behind, together with their archetypes.
Theoretically, some forgotten archetypes should be able to catch up, given enough support, but it would take increasingly longer (more and more releases, since powerlevel never falls down), and the process would still be uncertain: Malygos Druid is an example.
I should add that i really dislike nerfs as a solution. But i dislike a suffocating Wild more.
Buffs is another way around to sort balance the things. I know it is unpopular opinion, but I think that Shadowboxer and Dreasteed should be unnerfed. What is the point of these potential powerfull comboes anyway when they are still not enough against some decks? (like Druid) Reverting Warsong nerf shuld also make Patron Warrior viable. Or as we agreed, apply a few smaller nerfs to weaken the decks. They will still be powerfull and find their way into the meta, but they will be a little weaker. And for preventing some balance issues some potential gamebreakers must get nerfs too. Because if we nerf both Fast and Control decks together with Druid Combo decks, decks like Kingsbane Rogue will have a potentiall to be game-breaking.
Well, buffing cards is just as dangerous as introducing OP synergies (unless it is buffing Ironforge Rifleman and the likes): both design paths contribute to the ever-growing peak of powerlevel, especially on the side of uncounterable stuff.
If they ever delivered a powerlevel haircut, definitively lurking decks should be checked as well, especially those that show the capability, shared with current t1. of highrolling or snowballing far beyond their deck type and pace - and Kingsbane Rogue is one of them.
Well, buffing cards is just as dangerous as introducing OP synergies (unless it is buffing Ironforge Rifleman and the likes): both design paths contribute to the ever-growing peak of powerlevel, especially on the side of uncounterable stuff.
If they ever delivered a powerlevel haircut, definitively lurking decks should be checked as well, especially those that show the capability, shared with current t1. of highrolling or snowballing far beyond their deck type and pace - and Kingsbane Rogue is one of them.
Another approach can be to print more hate cards that are neutral. But it seems that Blizzard doesn't like printing a lot of them even though they are required. Like the only good neutral hate card that we have is Dirty Rat against Control and Combo.
Seems to me like some people would rather play vanilla.
Of course some combination of cards are going to be more powerful that playing them solo.
And it's logical that a wider pool of cards will generate a larger number of powerful combinations.
Just because you don't like playing against some specific combo does not mean it must be removed from the game !
Especially in wild there are a lot of good ways to tech around pretty much any combo that I don't see them as a problem.
But problem in wild: druid has most powerfull draw in game...only class that can ramp...most powerfull armor gain in one turn (with warrior who actually has downside with gaining 10 armor)... And aviana+kun that can enable any OTK you want with little to 0 problem.... He can ramp and draw (tutors combo) so fast that vs control you are at 10 mana with all combo pieces in hand, but opponent is on 5 mybe 6 mana with one (if you are lucky) dirty rat.... Aviana was always problem in wild IMO. Nowdays even two of dirty rats arent enough cause they dont use only 4-6 minions like maly druid.... With more and more cards added this aviana will be a huge problem in future....if you wanna balanced otk decks you just CAN'T give that classes so much armor, draw, ramp, "combo enabler" (aviana) and SP.....
Change aviana: your minions cost 3.... With 2xinervate you will be able to play kun and more 3 big minions in one turn.... Would still be powerfull card
Or: minons that 5 or more now cost 3, minons that cost less then 5 cost 1....
No more fcking 10 minions in one turn that kills YOU AND YOUR WHOLE BOARD...on freaking TURN 6!!!
Aviana is problem like naga was!!! Oppresive vs control like naga was...in wild there is mostly combo druid and aggro...what is control? I have never heard for that word xD
Im control player yes... But before BDP i had a chance vs combo decks...now i have like 20% wr against star druid even if i have: dirty rat, demonic project, bran, glinda, gnomeferatu in deck... I was dead on turn 6 many times and i mybe drew few times gnomeferatu or dirty rat in time..but how many time dirty rat pulled combo piece?? 4 times in last (around) 20 games....because they have hand full of minions...and gnomeferatu is useless if not drawn on turn 2 cause of 4 mana draw your freaking most important cards for combo.... XD
Sorry for bad english
I understand your sentiment. Sometimes I play control decks too and don't like the feel of not being able to do anything.
But you must understand the fact that some match ups are just bad.
Like for example in standard: if you play an aggro deck vs control warrior you have abysmal chance to win. Does that mean control warrior should be nerfed ? NO. The deck just does what is supposed to do. Same way, combo decks are designed to beat control and that's what they do.
If combo can not reliably beat control then there is no point in having combo archetypes, as that is the main reason for it to exist.
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Nitpicking on the definition of aggro adds nothing to the conversation here... Besides I don't think ''true'' aggro decks by your standards even exist anymore, except maybe burn mage, and even there you're going to argue with me that it's a tempo deck.
Anyway, my point is that combo decks such as Star Aligner Druid should be vulnerable to aggressive decks such as Even Shaman, but they aren't, and that feels broken to me.
I don't understand how you are making conclusions like "Big Priest, which many of you described in a rough position recently. It appears it is not, safe as ever at the top.". The deck is quite weak against Combo Druids, especially Star Aligner Druid which are in abundance these days. And with a good draw and bit of luck even Odd Rogue can occasionally win against Big Priest.
From VS Meta Report that you, yourself have linked :
So Big Priest is not all powerful deck that it once was, it is phasing out due to natural power creep and Blizzard not giving good cards to Priest for last two expansions. It has already fallen from high tier one after Naga Sea Witch nerf to low tier one; TS even lists Big Priest as tier two. Nerfing Big Priest will only unleash already dominate decks like Even Shaman.
As for Barnes, not all Big Priest decks play it. What about those who don't play Barnes ? Barnes becomes a big liability when you pull him from Shadow Essence and it gets in the resurrect pool.
If any deck needs a nerf, then it is called Even Shaman but that's highly unlikely.
My burn mage has a very favorable winrate against the combo druids. I suspect odd rogue is favored too
It's not just a matter of "can I kill them before they combo off as early as turn X" if you're playing such a deck. you can stick dangerous things to the board every turn and they are forced to deal with them instead of developing their own gameplan of ramping and drawing. This slows down the combo by a lot. Ice block helps too
Even shaman isn't the right kind of aggressive deck to threaten these druids. Your big threats only come down (conditionally) on turn 4 and your boards don't push much before then. Flamewreathed facelesses block you from dropping another threat on curve the turn after too. I used to play combo druid before it became OP this expansion and even shaman wasn't a huge issue for me, though I always win by doing druid things and exhausting the opponent of a hand rather than a combo. The ability to combo faster nowadays is just cherry on the cake
Legend with : S65 Freeze Mage, S57 Maly Gonk Druid, S57 "Okay" Shaman, S53 Boom-zooka Hunter, S53 Maly Tog Druid, S52 Wild Tog Druid ft.Blingtron, S50 Quest Rogue, S49 Dead Man's Warrior, S41 Wild Clown Fiesta Druid, S41 Hadronox Jade Druid, S40 Wild OTK Dragon Druid, S35 SMOrc Shaman, S33 Jade Druid, S22 Control Priest, S19 Control Priest
Big Priest is t1 look at the stats in the report, both in high ranks and lower. It has how many bad matchups you want, and Priest may have dropped in popularity overall, but Big Priest is t1 - and it is telling that the top notch Priest deck is not Renopriest.
As you have seen in my OP, i was considering a wide set of nerfs, including Even Shaman (with hypotheses that are not meant to be the perfect nerfs either), not just with Big Priest. I am not picking on it (even tho i genuinely hate the deck), but you cannot defend it either - unless you entirely like Wild as it is (including Even Shaman).
Now, to divert from just Big Priest, i was also wandering: Juicy Psychmelon and even Star Aligner. Look at their texts. In the vacuum, they are very specific, almost clunky, they do not seem to be powerful just by accident... I mean, the more i look at them, the more i think that team5 is continuously breaking Wild... on purpose, or at least intendedly? Is this tinfoil hat stuff?
Seems to me like some people would rather play vanilla.
Of course some combination of cards are going to be more powerful that playing them solo.
And it's logical that a wider pool of cards will generate a larger number of powerful combinations.
Just because you don't like playing against some specific combo does not mean it must be removed from the game !
Especially in wild there are a lot of good ways to tech around pretty much any combo that I don't see them as a problem.
Actually, I would absolutely love to play vanilla in 2018. Or at least some older combination of expansion pools. Wild is great and all, but it's definitely not a place to play decks from the past
Legend with : S65 Freeze Mage, S57 Maly Gonk Druid, S57 "Okay" Shaman, S53 Boom-zooka Hunter, S53 Maly Tog Druid, S52 Wild Tog Druid ft.Blingtron, S50 Quest Rogue, S49 Dead Man's Warrior, S41 Wild Clown Fiesta Druid, S41 Hadronox Jade Druid, S40 Wild OTK Dragon Druid, S35 SMOrc Shaman, S33 Jade Druid, S22 Control Priest, S19 Control Priest
But problem in wild: druid has most powerfull draw in game...only class that can ramp...most powerfull armor gain in one turn (with warrior who actually has downside with gaining 10 armor)... And aviana+kun that can enable any OTK you want with little to 0 problem.... He can ramp and draw (tutors combo) so fast that vs control you are at 10 mana with all combo pieces in hand, but opponent is on 5 mybe 6 mana with one (if you are lucky) dirty rat.... Aviana was always problem in wild IMO. Nowdays even two of dirty rats arent enough cause they dont use only 4-6 minions like maly druid.... With more and more cards added this aviana will be a huge problem in future....if you wanna balanced otk decks you just CAN'T give that classes so much armor, draw, ramp, "combo enabler" (aviana) and SP.....
Change aviana: your minions cost 3.... With 2xinervate you will be able to play kun and more 3 big minions in one turn.... Would still be powerfull card
Or: minons that 5 or more now cost 3, minons that cost less then 5 cost 1....
No more fcking 10 minions in one turn that kills YOU AND YOUR WHOLE BOARD...on freaking TURN 6!!!
Aviana is problem like naga was!!! Oppresive vs control like naga was...in wild there is mostly combo druid and aggro...what is control? I have never heard for that word xD
Im control player yes... But before BDP i had a chance vs combo decks...now i have like 20% wr against star druid even if i have: dirty rat, demonic project, bran, glinda, gnomeferatu in deck... I was dead on turn 6 many times and i mybe drew few times gnomeferatu or dirty rat in time..but how many time dirty rat pulled combo piece?? 4 times in last (around) 20 games....because they have hand full of minions...and gnomeferatu is useless if not drawn on turn 2 cause of 4 mana draw your freaking most important cards for combo.... XD
Sorry for bad english
Can we also talk about the fact that the Tier 3 is completely missing? xDD That means that either your deck is Tier 1 or 2 worthy, or your deck is pretty trashy and it is tier 4 or lower.
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Indeed, and this is awful for the deckbuilding and homebrewing potential that we are used to attribute to Wild.
Sure, you could build an off-meta deck that actually has t2 power (Deathrattle Hunter anyone? Or what about Token Druid?), but room for "inventing" seems to be very limited, despite the increasing size of the whole Wild collection.
And well, the whole group of t1 tyrants up there are the main cause of this: so much powercreep and so high powerlevels, that in the end too many cards become obsolete.
It's lower t1 on VS and t2 on TempoStorm. Also drop in popularity clearly means the is deck is not as good as it once was otherwise everyone would be playing it.
Of course you hate Big Priest, because it is the only thing stopping Even Shaman from going completely insane. And I can defend Big Priest because it's not the best in Wild, it's it not even in top 5. First nerf those 5 decks, we can talk about Big Priest after that.
Yeah, Star Aligner looks bad in vacuum but not Juicy Psychmelon, that card looks and is very strong. I agree that Blizzard doesn't care about wild but I don't think they could have predicted this broken Star Aligner combo. After the release of Juicy Psychmelon, everybody thought it would see play in Maly and Togwaggle Druid but nobody predicted Star Aligner Druid.
Can you please realise I actually suggested nerfs for ALL the t1 decks I mentioned (restricted to 4-L ranks), as from VS report, including Even Shaman?
For the sake of precision, if you actually read the whole VS report, you'd see that Big Priest is 5,07% of all-ranks population, Odd Rogue is 3,52%, and they are both top tier decks (Odd Rogue is actually higher in wr). So no, population is not a factor in the deck tier level.
Most importantly, this thread is not about nerfing Big Priest, or any other single deck. It is not even about defending one.
This is a thread trying to discuss whether it is healthy, and ultimately fun, to have so much powerlevel continuously accumulating in Wild, given the results in the meta.
You can say everything is fine as it is for you, it's an acceptable position, even better if argumented, but biased posts are BS here.
The room for inventing is limited because people don't like to experiment. At least thats my explanation. Wild playerbase is at 10% size compared to Standard and I doubt that even 0,5 % experiments with the decks. Then there are dedicated deckbuilders that are experimenting and are bringing consistent lists ( Gunnolf for example. Sometimes me when I post a serious deck xD and others of course too) I even decided to make a segment dedicated to Wild Tier 2 underdogs to bring some variety. But I don't think that a lot of things will change if people won't experiment a lot. I truly believe that there are some undiscovered decks and we just need to disover them or revisit the old ones. I think that Midrange Dragon Warrior could do some damage to the meta. Anyfin Paladin and others too.
I'm not convinced that there is some undiscovered Tier 1 deck. Current ones are really strong. They are just really powerfull and if they were in Standard they would be Tier S worthy. Then we have Tier 2 decks that are strong but not strong enough to be considered broken in every matchup. I guess there are at least 5 decks that can be discovered. And then there is a huge gap and Tier 4 decks. Which is not ok. Maybe we could try and build some Tier 3 decks or somethin? Because I don't see how would nerf solve the Tier 1 and 2 issue. How would you nerf Even Shaman, Odd decks or Renolock? Several cards should be nerfed in order to make them at least a little bit weaker. They will still be strong because of the different packages and cards.
Moving into https://outof.cards/members/firepaladinhs/decks
For example, if i had to nerf Even Shaman, Things from Below is a good candidate: soft, remove taunt; hard, make it (7) mana. Or Devolve to (3).
I mean, these nerfs would require much more data than i can access to. Playrate of cards, their individual wr, etc. Far from easy.
And yes, i think that, if if nerf it should be, then it should be a large set of small ones.
As of discoveries, i definitely agree: on one hand the smaller pool of players, and maybe their inherent laziness ;p does not help. But most importantly, there is probably very little to discover.
But the reason is indeed that a higher powerlevel in Wild leads to a very restricted set of "meta cards", despite the larger set of available cards. It's a sort of paradox, but that's what we are seeing so far. It's like a warping black hole: with more releases the average powerlevel does not shift between decks, it goes up and up - and unrelated cards are left behind, together with their archetypes.
Theoretically, some forgotten archetypes should be able to catch up, given enough support, but it would take increasingly longer (more and more releases, since powerlevel never falls down), and the process would still be uncertain: Malygos Druid is an example.
I should add that i really dislike nerfs as a solution. But i dislike a suffocating Wild more.
Can you please realise that I am actually trying to tell you that Big Priest is not clear cut Tier one as you might think ? it no doubt was tier one after Naga Sea Witch nerf but not currently. Not with so many combo Druids.
You can look Tempostorm's meta snapshot, Big Priest is not Tier one. https://tempostorm.com/hearthstone/meta-snapshot/wild/2018-09-01 .
Are you kidding me ? No seriously, you said "[...]nerfs for ALL the t1 decks I mentioned (restricted to 4-L ranks)." and now you are using data from all ranks. If you want to nerf t1 decks from ranks 4-L then use the data from those ranks, not from all ranks.
For ranks 4 - L, the data is : Star Aligner Druid - 11%, Even Shaman - 16%, Reno Warlock - 11%, Odd Rogue - 6%, Aluenth Mage - 6%, Odd Pally - 6% and Big Priest - 5%. Please use correct data.
Apart from that, I was talking to decline in the "population" of Big Priests, which comparing from last VS report is -3.18%. This is the biggest decline (apart from Odd Rogue?) when compared with other t1 decks from last meta, and you still want to nerf Big Priest even more ? Clearly shows who is more biased.
Yes, yes that's what I am telling. Nerfing Big Priest won't solve your problems because it's not part of the problem.
Since you have used contradictory and fake data in your last post, I think we should postpone the discussion of who is more biased.
I am really sorry for you man, but you keep failing to read throughout my OP and following posts.
I am not even trying to explain, as you are unable to understand. You are just nitpicking in order to prevail. But this is not a challenge of who got it longer.
Please stop posting further, you are polluting the thread without contributing. Thank you.
That's not nitpicking, you made a big blunder by using wrong data set. Now don't blame for not understanding this thread, you had a clear flaw in your interpretation of the VS report. So I thought I could clear some things out, but alas! what a fool I am for thinking you really wanted "clean and constructive discussion".
No you had the wrong opinion that "Big Priest, which many of you described in a rough position recently. It appears it is not, safe as ever at the top. Again, we had tons of discussions, and i think we all agree that at the very least, Barnes needs a nerf." which I tried to refute by showing that neither your own data nor pro players think Big Priest is as good as it was before and it doesn't need a nerf, let alone a bad nerf like of Barnes.
But not I am "polluting the thread". Next time please add a disclaimer that threads like this are for circlejerking and I won't be bothered.
Buffs is another way around to sort balance the things. I know it is unpopular opinion, but I think that Shadowboxer and Dreasteed should be unnerfed. What is the point of these potential powerfull comboes anyway when they are still not enough against some decks? (like Druid) Reverting Warsong nerf shuld also make Patron Warrior viable. Or as we agreed, apply a few smaller nerfs to weaken the decks. They will still be powerfull and find their way into the meta, but they will be a little weaker. And for preventing some balance issues some potential gamebreakers must get nerfs too. Because if we nerf both Fast and Control decks together with Druid Combo decks, decks like Kingsbane Rogue will have a potentiall to be game-breaking.
Moving into https://outof.cards/members/firepaladinhs/decks
Well, buffing cards is just as dangerous as introducing OP synergies (unless it is buffing Ironforge Rifleman and the likes): both design paths contribute to the ever-growing peak of powerlevel, especially on the side of uncounterable stuff.
If they ever delivered a powerlevel haircut, definitively lurking decks should be checked as well, especially those that show the capability, shared with current t1. of highrolling or snowballing far beyond their deck type and pace - and Kingsbane Rogue is one of them.
Another approach can be to print more hate cards that are neutral. But it seems that Blizzard doesn't like printing a lot of them even though they are required. Like the only good neutral hate card that we have is Dirty Rat against Control and Combo.
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I understand your sentiment. Sometimes I play control decks too and don't like the feel of not being able to do anything.
But you must understand the fact that some match ups are just bad.
Like for example in standard: if you play an aggro deck vs control warrior you have abysmal chance to win. Does that mean control warrior should be nerfed ? NO. The deck just does what is supposed to do. Same way, combo decks are designed to beat control and that's what they do.
If combo can not reliably beat control then there is no point in having combo archetypes, as that is the main reason for it to exist.