Pretty sure this happens every expansion. People were even saying rogue was the new priest before MSoG released. What is wrong with you people? Literally no respected or skilled player is worried about rogue being viable. Miracle is taking a hit in power level, but who knows? Rogue got a shitload of great cards this expansion. Only playing with them will let use evaluate where stands.
Let's clear something up as well. Paladin and Hunter were screwed last expansion because pirates were suppressing them and they were pigeonholed into bad mechanics. Rogue isn't pigeonholed into anything. Caverns below is the most flexible quest of them all. Water rogue is still strong and despite miracle losing alot they actually printed some cards to support the miracle archetype.
Vilespine Slayer is just the best card of the expansion by a mile.
This card don't get close to the power of Primordial Glyph, if any card of this expansion will be nerfed is this one.
That said I am happy to FINALLY see a very good class card for rogue, looks like forever rogue have to make miracles with neutrals or tri-class cards...
Miracle is unarguably dead. The whole point of Miracle was to Conceal an Auctioneer and draw until you reach an combo to kill the opponent instantly. While some may argue that the large amount of 0-1 cost spells Rogue has may allow Auctioneer to be useful without stealth, this still does not solve the less noticed combo problem. Simply put, there is no more combo for Rogue to use. Thrassian's rotation has made Malygos combos impossible without saving all the Preparations you would ideally be using for Auctioneer, Leroy has never dealt quite enough damage and has not seen play for quite awhile, and Arcane Giant and Questing Adventurer are not instant kills and are completely unreliable without Conceal giving them stealth.
Quest Rogue is not and will not be a thing. Mimic Pod is far too unreliable and does not impact the board when it is played. Elementals can be easily destroyed by aggressive decks the turn they are played. To activate the quest a lot of cards that are completely useless draws post-activation and provide no tempo such as Preparation and Shadowstep must be included. If you're hoping these terrible topdecks aren't necessary and you think that you can build a midrange deck that does noting the first five turns while Pirate Warrior exists, then go ahead.
Of course Water Rogue is still viable. But what is Water Rogue, really? It was created at the absolute worst point of the meta, when you were either playing a Pirate deck to rank up or a meme deck to try and get some semblance of fun. When everyone becomes motivated to construct viable decks again, I believe that Water Rogue will not survive.
Arent you tired of nonsense? The last comment about Rogue needing tri-class cards to be competitive was enough, please, stop posting things that are not true.
I think Rogue needs literally 0 cards from Ungoro. With the meta probably slowing down as A LOT of good taunts, good removal control oriented tools appear, Rogue will just become better, as this deck always likes to destroy slow decks. Conceal doesnt matter a bit, you can save your stuff against control to get full value from Gadgetzan Auctioneer. Against aggro, it is same as always, except Vilespine Slayer is AMAZING. You can keep racing with your minions while removing their threats and even gaining a 3/4 body on the board. Like, prep, cold blood, vilespine your guy, hit you in the face.
I am not gonna talk about the quest cause even though it is the easiest to complete, still needs some concrete deck design and/or some tempo loss while completing it (if you return say a SI7 with shadowstep, you cant replay it til you have Brewmaster or another shadowstep, cause if it gets killed, you could have a hard time if you never get the other SI7). Anyway, seems a very good quest, and people could even experiment something else like Violet Teacher + Vanish, then play the tokens to complete quest, have four 5/5 in play.
And the last 2 options of Rogue are Water Rogue which seems same good as now except the beast spot for Curator has better options and pure aggro rogue, which seems also at the same power level, but could evolve into something with more "steal cards" and the new weapon to keep "out-tempoing" the opponent.
Lot to experiment. Maybe even then it is the worst class. It doesnt depend on its own actually, unless it is the best deck. It depends on the other 8 classes.
And I am saying this now: Sap is the best card in hearthstone. Never forget it ;)
Arent you tired of nonsense? The last comment about Rogue needing tri-class cards to be competitive was enough, please, stop posting things that are not true.
Other rogue decks uses Auctioneer, Leeroy, Questing, small-time + patches, the water packed and Malygos, all neutral.
What part of my comment is nonsense? I said rogue have to use so many cards neutral or tri-class, I don't say tri-class cards are the only option for rogue.
Arent you tired of nonsense? The last comment about Rogue needing tri-class cards to be competitive was enough, please, stop posting things that are not true.
Other rogue decks uses Auctioneer, Leeroy, Questing, small-time + patches, the water packed and Malygos, all neutral.
What part of my comment is nonsense? I said rogue have to use so many cards neutral or tri-class, I don't say tri-class cards are the only option for rogue.
What a dumb argument, every class relies on neutral cards.
That's what I wanted to mean, but I just pointed the triclass cards argument cause I didnt want to point every single thing I read in this topic. Someone also said Miracle is dead cause of no Conceal, while A LOT of players dont run Conceal, but again, a lot of things that simply are not true have being said here.
That's what I wanted to mean, but I just pointed the triclass cards argument cause I didnt want to point every single thing I read in this topic. Someone also said Miracle is dead cause of no Conceal, while A LOT of players dont run Conceal, but again, a lot of things that simply are not true have being said here.
To be fair, I don't think anyone was running zero Conceals in anything but malyrogue. But no, miracle doesn't die just because they lose Conceal. They're however not losing just conceal, they're also losing Tomb Pillager and Azure Drake. Can they survive that? Probably, but the deck will not be as strong as it was. Not even close.
I don't think we should underestimate all of the utility cards rogue is getting in un'goro. Vilespine Slayer and Envenom Weapon should make it much easier for rogue to get through the mid-game. Mimic Pod is decent for card draw, even if it's a bit RNG. Hallucination doesn't look too appealing on paper but we shouldn't discount how broken some non-rogue spells could be when prepped out.
Miracle is unarguably dead. The whole point of Miracle was to Conceal an Auctioneer and draw until you reach an combo to kill the opponent instantly. While some may argue that the large amount of 0-1 cost spells Rogue has may allow Auctioneer to be useful without stealth, this still does not solve the less noticed combo problem. Simply put, there is no more combo for Rogue to use. Thrassian's rotation has made Malygos combos impossible without saving all the Preparations you would ideally be using for Auctioneer, Leroy has never dealt quite enough damage and has not seen play for quite awhile, and Arcane Giant and Questing Adventurer are not instant kills and are completely unreliable without Conceal giving them stealth.
Quest Rogue is not and will not be a thing. Mimic Pod is far too unreliable and does not impact the board when it is played. Elementals can be easily destroyed by aggressive decks the turn they are played. To activate the quest a lot of cards that are completely useless draws post-activation and provide no tempo such as Preparation and Shadowstep must be included. If you're hoping these terrible topdecks aren't necessary and you think that you can build a midrange deck that does noting the first five turns while Pirate Warrior exists, then go ahead.
Of course Water Rogue is still viable. But what is Water Rogue, really? It was created at the absolute worst point of the meta, when you were either playing a Pirate deck to rank up or a meme deck to try and get some semblance of fun. When everyone becomes motivated to construct viable decks again, I believe that Water Rogue will not survive.
Miracle Rogue is not dead, altho' I agree Miracle Rogue loses a lot between Azure Drake and Tomb Pillager, Miracle has never needed Conceal in order to beat control and Hipster combo (Southsea Deckhand, Cold Blood and Faceless Manipulator) is an evergreen mechanic. I'm not certain what will replace Azure Drake, because it's rotation makes Fan of Knives virtually unplayable, but Violete Teacher can replace Tomb Pillager and Envenom and Hallucination looks like really damn strong cards
Miracle is unarguably dead. The whole point of Miracle was to Conceal an Auctioneer and draw until you reach an combo to kill the opponent instantly. While some may argue that the large amount of 0-1 cost spells Rogue has may allow Auctioneer to be useful without stealth, this still does not solve the less noticed combo problem. Simply put, there is no more combo for Rogue to use. Thrassian's rotation has made Malygos combos impossible without saving all the Preparations you would ideally be using for Auctioneer, Leroy has never dealt quite enough damage and has not seen play for quite awhile, and Arcane Giant and Questing Adventurer are not instant kills and are completely unreliable without Conceal giving them stealth.
Quest Rogue is not and will not be a thing. Mimic Pod is far too unreliable and does not impact the board when it is played. Elementals can be easily destroyed by aggressive decks the turn they are played. To activate the quest a lot of cards that are completely useless draws post-activation and provide no tempo such as Preparation and Shadowstep must be included. If you're hoping these terrible topdecks aren't necessary and you think that you can build a midrange deck that does noting the first five turns while Pirate Warrior exists, then go ahead.
Of course Water Rogue is still viable. But what is Water Rogue, really? It was created at the absolute worst point of the meta, when you were either playing a Pirate deck to rank up or a meme deck to try and get some semblance of fun. When everyone becomes motivated to construct viable decks again, I believe that Water Rogue will not survive.
This has to be one of the worst, if not the worst, comments about Rogue I've seen in a long while. I was just going to ignore you, but you triggered me with your ignorance. Congratulations. Maybe you can learn something from what I have to say.
The whole point of Miracle was to Conceal an Auctioneer and draw until you reach an combo to kill the opponent instantly.
Completely wrong. Miracle is not an OTK deck, it might have been in its first iterations back in 2014 when Shadowstep was played together with a 4 mana Leeroy, but after they nerfed the deck, this aspect of the deck has been watered down a whole fucking lot. I don't know if this is common knowledge or not, but Miracle wins by having the right cards when needed and the whole point of drawing a lot is to achieve that. What's the difference between having the right cards and an OTK/Combo deck? The difference is that with Miracle, besides looking to be proactive in a near perfect way, you're also looking to be reactive in a similar fashion. Being able to perfectly answer your opponent's plays while maintaining a lot of pressure and having the option to burst them down very easily are Miracle's strengths. There's also another big mistake in your sentence; Conceal was never absolutely needed in Miracle decks. It's a very powerful combo, sure, but the amount of cycle you can achieve without it is enough for Miracle to see a lot of success.
Thrassian's rotation has made Malygos combos impossible without saving all the Preparations you would ideally be using for Auctioneer, Leroy has never dealt quite enough damage and has not seen play for quite awhile, and Arcane Giant and Questing Adventurer are not instant kills and are completely unreliable without Conceal giving them stealth.
While I agree that Malygos Rogue will be in a tight spot post rotation, I beg to differ about some of your points. You said that IDEALLY Malygos Rogue is looking to use Preparation with Auctioneer and while that happens a lot of times, it's far from being ideal. A very common mistake is using Preparation to cycle instead of holding it to combo with Malygos; it has been a common mistake since Thaurissan made people more reliant on him, instead of using Rogue's own resources to OTK like they did before BRM. Leeroy has seen a lot of play in 2014, too much play in fact, and Miracle Rogue was one of the main reasons he got nerfed in the first place. It has always seen play in the deck, as it is a very good with Cold Blood and the damage it deals is enough. You might be accustomed with the a different version of Miracle, which is Questing, and that's makes your silly arguments, although wrong, completely understandable, but please, research a little before you say something that's not entirely true with such confidence. Conceal is very important for Questing Miracle, but that's about it as far as Miracle is concerned. You say Questing is completely unreliable without Conceal, but the truth is that Questing is way more reliable with it, the difference is that not having Conceal doesn't make Questing unreliable by default. It might not be a win condition anymore, and if that's your point, then I don't disagree, still, Questing remains very good in Rogue even without Conceal.
Quest Rogue is not and will not be a thing. Mimic Pod is far too unreliable and does not impact the board when it is played. Elementals can be easily destroyed by aggressive decks the turn they are played. To activate the quest a lot of cards that are completely useless draws post-activation and provide no tempo such as Preparation and Shadowstep must be included.
Far from me to say that what you said is wrong, do you know why? Because I couldn't possibly know. The new cards weren't released yet and any bold statements like those are nothing more than completely ignorant. Wait and see, before telling others what is and what isn't a thing. You can theorycraft all you want, but in the end, be it good or bad, it remains only theoretical.
It was created at the absolute worst point of the meta, when you were either playing a Pirate deck to rank up or a meme deck to try and get some semblance of fun. When everyone becomes motivated to construct viable decks again, I believe that Water Rogue will not survive.
This is absolutely fantastic. I don't know what this absolutely worst point of the meta is, but saying that Water Rogue is only good because people aren't creating viable decks due to the state of the meta is just saddening; It's a complete disrespect to deck builders.
Anyway, I'm not trying to change your mind, it's up to you to read this or even accept it, I just didn't like your attitude. Have a nice day.
I highly disagree. Rogue has gotten shit cards ever since gvg and theyve always been a tier 2 class. I think this set will be no different, all the cards seem bad but they probably all combo together in some way so I personally think rogue will be one of the good classes post rotation.
If it is possible to judge before the new cards arrive, i'd say Rogue will be quite bad, they will have to stick to miracle if the Quest doesnt work. Razorpetal Rogue seems nice but imo it wont work since the Razorpetals are deal 1 damage for 1 mana. Yea it would be awesome if a Razorpetal deck with Sherazin, Corpse Flower could work, but i doubt it. Quest Rogue will need all bouncing cards in hand in order to get the quest done before being killed.
Imo, Rogue will be probably bottom of the barrel. Warlock will be just meh, Paladin will be okeyish, and Warrior with taunts, Mage with an OTK deck, Shaman with Elementals, Hunter with flood and Druid because he is purely OP, will be the most played classes, each with its own style. Priest, i really have no idea how it will turn out to be.
So bounce quest rogue is severely underrated as soon as you get the quest done, between turn 3 and turn 8 you can start filling board with cheap charge and summon minions. Win occurs between turn 5 and 9 which is pretty fast. It absolutely sacrifices some tempo turn 1 through 3 in a perfect game but it makes it up as soon as it plays the quest. It also seems like a really cheap deck to me, it should only require 2 legendaries, or three if you wanna run mores.
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Just fill your deck with one drops, that is creative deck design, right?
People talk about Conceal Miracle Rogue was the only iteration of Miracle Rogue.
Leeroy got nerfed, they didn't care. Auctioneer got nerfed, they didn't care. They still survived on mainly core cards by doing 8 damage to the face and miracle into Leeroy with 2 coldblood and 2 evis to the face. Losing conceal is nothing to this class.
I'll call Miracle Rogue dead when but when both Prep and Auctioneer goes into Hall of Fame.
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Pretty sure this happens every expansion. People were even saying rogue was the new priest before MSoG released. What is wrong with you people? Literally no respected or skilled player is worried about rogue being viable. Miracle is taking a hit in power level, but who knows? Rogue got a shitload of great cards this expansion. Only playing with them will let use evaluate where stands.
Let's clear something up as well. Paladin and Hunter were screwed last expansion because pirates were suppressing them and they were pigeonholed into bad mechanics. Rogue isn't pigeonholed into anything. Caverns below is the most flexible quest of them all. Water rogue is still strong and despite miracle losing alot they actually printed some cards to support the miracle archetype.
Miracle is unarguably dead. The whole point of Miracle was to Conceal an Auctioneer and draw until you reach an combo to kill the opponent instantly. While some may argue that the large amount of 0-1 cost spells Rogue has may allow Auctioneer to be useful without stealth, this still does not solve the less noticed combo problem. Simply put, there is no more combo for Rogue to use. Thrassian's rotation has made Malygos combos impossible without saving all the Preparations you would ideally be using for Auctioneer, Leroy has never dealt quite enough damage and has not seen play for quite awhile, and Arcane Giant and Questing Adventurer are not instant kills and are completely unreliable without Conceal giving them stealth.
Quest Rogue is not and will not be a thing. Mimic Pod is far too unreliable and does not impact the board when it is played. Elementals can be easily destroyed by aggressive decks the turn they are played. To activate the quest a lot of cards that are completely useless draws post-activation and provide no tempo such as Preparation and Shadowstep must be included. If you're hoping these terrible topdecks aren't necessary and you think that you can build a midrange deck that does noting the first five turns while Pirate Warrior exists, then go ahead.
Of course Water Rogue is still viable. But what is Water Rogue, really? It was created at the absolute worst point of the meta, when you were either playing a Pirate deck to rank up or a meme deck to try and get some semblance of fun. When everyone becomes motivated to construct viable decks again, I believe that Water Rogue will not survive.
This is the best set of cards rogue has gotten from any expansion/adventure by a mile.
Arent you tired of nonsense? The last comment about Rogue needing tri-class cards to be competitive was enough, please, stop posting things that are not true.
I think Rogue needs literally 0 cards from Ungoro. With the meta probably slowing down as A LOT of good taunts, good removal control oriented tools appear, Rogue will just become better, as this deck always likes to destroy slow decks. Conceal doesnt matter a bit, you can save your stuff against control to get full value from Gadgetzan Auctioneer. Against aggro, it is same as always, except Vilespine Slayer is AMAZING. You can keep racing with your minions while removing their threats and even gaining a 3/4 body on the board. Like, prep, cold blood, vilespine your guy, hit you in the face.
I am not gonna talk about the quest cause even though it is the easiest to complete, still needs some concrete deck design and/or some tempo loss while completing it (if you return say a SI7 with shadowstep, you cant replay it til you have Brewmaster or another shadowstep, cause if it gets killed, you could have a hard time if you never get the other SI7). Anyway, seems a very good quest, and people could even experiment something else like Violet Teacher + Vanish, then play the tokens to complete quest, have four 5/5 in play.
And the last 2 options of Rogue are Water Rogue which seems same good as now except the beast spot for Curator has better options and pure aggro rogue, which seems also at the same power level, but could evolve into something with more "steal cards" and the new weapon to keep "out-tempoing" the opponent.
Lot to experiment. Maybe even then it is the worst class. It doesnt depend on its own actually, unless it is the best deck. It depends on the other 8 classes.
And I am saying this now: Sap is the best card in hearthstone. Never forget it ;)
A glorious bundle of salt.
That's what I wanted to mean, but I just pointed the triclass cards argument cause I didnt want to point every single thing I read in this topic. Someone also said Miracle is dead cause of no Conceal, while A LOT of players dont run Conceal, but again, a lot of things that simply are not true have being said here.
Yes but as once Kripp said: Rogues are cocroaches of Hearthstone. They will find a way.
Yes, Blizzard hates Rogue and wants nothing more than for it to roll over and die.
I don't think we should underestimate all of the utility cards rogue is getting in un'goro. Vilespine Slayer and Envenom Weapon should make it much easier for rogue to get through the mid-game. Mimic Pod is decent for card draw, even if it's a bit RNG. Hallucination doesn't look too appealing on paper but we shouldn't discount how broken some non-rogue spells could be when prepped out.
While I agree that Malygos Rogue will be in a tight spot post rotation, I beg to differ about some of your points. You said that IDEALLY Malygos Rogue is looking to use Preparation with Auctioneer and while that happens a lot of times, it's far from being ideal. A very common mistake is using Preparation to cycle instead of holding it to combo with Malygos; it has been a common mistake since Thaurissan made people more reliant on him, instead of using Rogue's own resources to OTK like they did before BRM. Leeroy has seen a lot of play in 2014, too much play in fact, and Miracle Rogue was one of the main reasons he got nerfed in the first place. It has always seen play in the deck, as it is a very good with Cold Blood and the damage it deals is enough. You might be accustomed with the a different version of Miracle, which is Questing, and that's makes your silly arguments, although wrong, completely understandable, but please, research a little before you say something that's not entirely true with such confidence. Conceal is very important for Questing Miracle, but that's about it as far as Miracle is concerned. You say Questing is completely unreliable without Conceal, but the truth is that Questing is way more reliable with it, the difference is that not having Conceal doesn't make Questing unreliable by default. It might not be a win condition anymore, and if that's your point, then I don't disagree, still, Questing remains very good in Rogue even without Conceal.
Far from me to say that what you said is wrong, do you know why? Because I couldn't possibly know. The new cards weren't released yet and any bold statements like those are nothing more than completely ignorant. Wait and see, before telling others what is and what isn't a thing. You can theorycraft all you want, but in the end, be it good or bad, it remains only theoretical.
This is absolutely fantastic. I don't know what this absolutely worst point of the meta is, but saying that Water Rogue is only good because people aren't creating viable decks due to the state of the meta is just saddening; It's a complete disrespect to deck builders.
Anyway, I'm not trying to change your mind, it's up to you to read this or even accept it, I just didn't like your attitude. Have a nice day.
I highly disagree. Rogue has gotten shit cards ever since gvg and theyve always been a tier 2 class. I think this set will be no different, all the cards seem bad but they probably all combo together in some way so I personally think rogue will be one of the good classes post rotation.
Always Hunters. Always Huffers.
Probably. Doesn't matter to me, cuz I don't plan on competing at the World Championships.
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My mandibles which are capable of pressing down and tearing, my talons which are known to intercept and hold.
If it is possible to judge before the new cards arrive, i'd say Rogue will be quite bad, they will have to stick to miracle if the Quest doesnt work. Razorpetal Rogue seems nice but imo it wont work since the Razorpetals are deal 1 damage for 1 mana. Yea it would be awesome if a Razorpetal deck with Sherazin, Corpse Flower could work, but i doubt it. Quest Rogue will need all bouncing cards in hand in order to get the quest done before being killed.
Imo, Rogue will be probably bottom of the barrel. Warlock will be just meh, Paladin will be okeyish, and Warrior with taunts, Mage with an OTK deck, Shaman with Elementals, Hunter with flood and Druid because he is purely OP, will be the most played classes, each with its own style. Priest, i really have no idea how it will turn out to be.
So bounce quest rogue is severely underrated as soon as you get the quest done, between turn 3 and turn 8 you can start filling board with cheap charge and summon minions. Win occurs between turn 5 and 9 which is pretty fast. It absolutely sacrifices some tempo turn 1 through 3 in a perfect game but it makes it up as soon as it plays the quest. It also seems like a really cheap deck to me, it should only require 2 legendaries, or three if you wanna run mores.
Just fill your deck with one drops, that is creative deck design, right?
Gang up Patches
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(Class mains are warrior, rogue and mage)
People talk about Conceal Miracle Rogue was the only iteration of Miracle Rogue.
Leeroy got nerfed, they didn't care. Auctioneer got nerfed, they didn't care. They still survived on mainly core cards by doing 8 damage to the face and miracle into Leeroy with 2 coldblood and 2 evis to the face. Losing conceal is nothing to this class.
I'll call Miracle Rogue dead when but when both Prep and Auctioneer goes into Hall of Fame.