I've played a lot of Paladin to know where he stands in the current Meta. Recently people are using a "Shockadin" deck, which involve heavy aggro. Some of us Paladins do not like this playstyle and prefer to be a more Mid-Range or more Control like playstyle. The reason why that playstyle is dying is because there are so many Paladin cards that are underpowered. Let's go through all of them and see why each one is underpowered and what change we could make to them.
The Light's Justice is probably one of the worst weapons in the game. The fact that most early drops are 2 health means that you just take way more damage than you should. I think there would be an easy way to fix this and make it a viable card. "2 Mana, Immunity while Attacking." I think this card would see a lot more play as it allows you to trade with enemies and take no extra damage, it is kinda like a Fireball for the Paladin which he desperately needs.
Humility is by far the worst Paladin card I see no one ever use. This is because the Aldor Peacekeeper is such a better card that also puts a 3/3 on the field. I think the best way to fix it is to make Humility, "2 Mana, Reduce a Minion's Health to 1 and Draw a Card." Now it gives the Paladin some early card-draw that he needs to help get him started. It would also stop early aggro and giants decks, so I would put it in my deck.
The Secrets
The Paladin Secrets are by far the worst secrets in the game. Especially now that you cannot activate secrets on your turn. Noble Sacrifice is the only good secret, however it defeats the point of a Secret when it is the only good one. Let's go over each of the other secrets and discuss why they are so bad.
EDIT: I took out Redemption because it really doesn't need a change. The Naxxramas update will be a lot of combo possibilities, so I think it should stay as it is.
Eye for an Eye is just a bad card because it doesn't change a thing. The opponent usually attacks with their smallest minion anyway because of Noble Sacrifice, so you will probably only deal 1 to 3 damage to the enemy at most. The idea of the card itself is weak, so it would be dumb to say "The enemy takes double damage" or something along those lines. I think a better route would be to make it so "When your hero takes damage, deal that damage plus 5 more to the character that attacked you." Now it deals 5 extra damage and can kill minions that attack you. Also it can be effected by Spell Damage.
Repentance is a very bad card because the enemy can just put out their weakest minion and it means little to nothing except a waste of your card. I think a way more interesting card would be "When the enemy plays a minion, silence it and then lower its health to 1." This combined with my idea for the Light's Justice would make this a 3 Mana Assassinate for 2 cards. However the enemy decides what minion could have that happen to.
HoW isn't a bad card, however it suffers from the problem that Paladin has way to many viable 4 mana cards. Consecration, Truesilver Champion, and this card of course. Because of this, you usually have 6 or more 4 mana cards in your deck. So I propose this change, "3 Mana, Deal 3 Damage and Draw a Card." Making it one less Mana would be perfect and would not be overpowered. 3 Mana for 3 Damage plus a card draw is fair.
Blessed Champion is such a bad card that's value is way to little for how much Mana it costs. I think a more interesting change would be to change how it works, "5 Mana, Double the Attack and Health of a Minion." Now you can do a Blessed-Leeroy combo for 9 Mana that is pretty good. It would be decent for both Aggro and Control decks.
Holy Wrath is a bad card because it costs to much and relies on the RNG way to much. I do like the RNG aspect, but I think it should be a bit more focused. My suggestion would be to change it to, "Draw a card between 5 and 12 Mana and deal damage equal to its cost." Now you will always know you will deal at least 5 Damage. However you can no longer deal 20 damage. However you deal 12 damage if you have Mountain Giants.
Guardian of Kings is not a bad card for any stretch of the imagination. It allows you to get a huge health lead on your opponent and get a pretty strong body out. However, when compared to something like Fire Elemental, it falls pretty short when it comes to value. My propose change would be, "6 Mana, 5/6, Restore 5 Health." It now costs less and can heal minions, but it heals for less now.
Bonus Card: Sha'tar Crusader
The Sha'tar Crusader is a card I came up with. It is the card that is needed for early game. It stalls the opponent, but it isn't overpowered at all. It is a reliable turn 1 play that is good for almost any situation. It protects your early minions, and it is actually pretty good to play an Argent Protector on Turn 2 with this.
Where would the Paladin stand after these changes?
I believe that we would see a lot of variety of decks for Paladin. Some may go a weapons route with the Light's Justice change. Some might use the new secrets in aggro decks. Holy Wrath and Hammer of Wrath will give some more reliable card draw to the Paladin which he desperately needs. Blessed Champion may be used in some high stat minion play, like with Boulder Fist Ogres. Humility will make Paladins a hard counter to Handlocks like they should be. And Guardian of Kings will be able to get much more value. I don't think that this would make Paladin an overpowered class, but maybe in the top 4 viable classes to play now.
There was some potential with Eye for an Eye when secrets could activate during your turn but since the change, it's an useless card for sure.The same goes for redemption and you already covered why. I think the cards are fine as is. The Paladin's strengths are buffs, debuffs and the best sweepers (combo'd) out of any class in the game and defense (divine shield, blockers) and all of those strengths are reflected here in the cards above. That being said, I think 3 out of the 5 cards mentioned above could use a change though I don't pretend to know what those balanced changes are. Light's Justice is just a horrible card and completely useless... MAY make sense in some hyper aggro or arena decks but that aside, it's a very niche card and could use some changes to broaden it's appeal but with the Paladin hero power as it is, I think the change you proposed would make it too strong, especially at 2 mana. I'd like to see a completely new card in place of humility simply due to the reasons you mentioned above - it seems lazy to put in a card and throw in a 'rare' that does it 2x better for slightly more mana. For the same reason, I think repentance should be changed but I don't agree with the silence - as far as the negatives you mentioned, all of them apply to the silence effect.. enemy plays a chillwind yeti, card's useless... Something that gives the Paladin immunity for a turn would fit the class and make sense but I doubt it makes sense for 1 mana and to maintain the theme of the other Pally secrets, and to not give it away, it may make sense to find another solution .. one that I again don't pretend to have the answer for.
I think there are far greater Paladin problems to solve, like a reliable card draw mechanic (lay on hands is pretty late in the game & divine favor is far from reliable, depending on the matchup, it may just be a dead card all game). Cards like blessed champion, despite fitting the class archetype, is a useless card for the class as a whole and should be replaced with 'something better.'
My $0.02
Edit: all of that being said, I think the class is in a relatively good place right now and pretty solid.
There was some potential with Eye for an Eye when secrets could activate during your turn but since the change, it's an useless card for sure.The same goes for redemption and you already covered why. I think the cards are fine as is. The Paladin's strengths are buffs, debuffs and the best sweepers (combo'd) out of any class in the game and defense (divine shield, blockers) and all of those strengths are reflected here in the cards above. That being said, I think 3 out of the 5 cards mentioned above could use a change though I don't pretend to know what those balanced changes are. Light's Justice is just a horrible card and completely useless... MAY make sense in some hyper aggro or arena decks but that aside, it's a very niche card and could use some changes to broaden it's appeal but with the Paladin hero power as it is, I think the change you proposed would make it too strong, especially at 2 mana. I'd like to see a completely new card in place of humility simply due to the reasons you mentioned above - it seems lazy to put in a card and throw in a 'rare' that does it 2x better for slightly more mana. For the same reason, I think repentance should be changed but I don't agree with the silence - as far as the negatives you mentioned, all of them apply to the silence effect.. enemy plays a chillwind yeti, card's useless... Something that gives the Paladin immunity for a turn would fit the class and make sense but I doubt it makes sense for 1 mana and to maintain the theme of the other Pally secrets, and to not give it away, it may make sense to find another solution .. one that I again don't pretend to have the answer for.
I think there are far greater Paladin problems to solve, like a reliable card draw mechanic (lay on hands is pretty late in the game & divine favor is far from reliable, depending on the matchup, it may just be a dead card all game). Cards like blessed champion, despite fitting the class archetype, is a useless card for the class as a whole and should be replaced with 'something better.'
My $0.02
Edit: all of that being said, I think the class is in a relatively good place right now and pretty solid.
I have to disagree, right now the Paladin isn't in a great spot and excels at nothing. He is the jack of all trades that isn't great at anything.
Druids are better at Mid-Range buff decks than Paladin.
Shaman is better at minion ramps with some removal.
Mages have overall better board clear.
Warlocks are great at big minions early on.
Warrior is good at staying alive and using weapons.
Priests are better at healing themselves and their creatures.
Hunters are best at rush-down.
Paladin is good at what to be exact? Nothing really at the moment.
Gigantic life gain, board clears, secrets, weapons, nasty legendary. What do you want, to be better than all other classes put together? Giving Paladins a 3-drop Polymorph for 2/2, never mind ignoring Divine Shield, honestly. You're using it to whack out Ysera or Ragnaros or Cairne or something of that class, honestly, who uses Hex or Polymorph on Argent Squire or Scarlet Crusader? and you could probably care less about a 2/2 - just the right size for Consecration or whatever.
You used to be able to straight out abuse Redemption and Eye for an Eye. Not use, but abuse, blatant BS "I play Leeroy Jenkins, Redemption, kill your board then facecharge for 6!" "I play Redemption, ram Cairne, then profit!" "I play Alexstrasza and hit you for 15!" Now you can use them, not abuse them. Not insanely OP, but still useful - FOR THE RIGHT DECK. You can't just throw Redemption into most Control Paladin builds, nor can you just throw it into Paladin weenie builds, you need to plan your deck around it.
Now yeah, you could make cases for Eye for an Eye being bad, Light's Justice being bad, whatever. But when you start saying everything is bad with no redeeming qualities when that's not quite true, and put out OP fixes, that's just salt. Even the proposed fix for Light's Justice is the equivalent of saving 6 crystal on Mage spell power; that's huge! - granted weapons are vulnerable to weapon removal, and you can't activate Enrage abilities on your own minions, but are you really going to be salty over losing a 2-drop weapon when you have Sword of Justice or certainly Truesilver Champion or Ashbringer coming up sometime?
If you're bitter and angry and feel like your class is underpowered, take a break and play Hunter or something, seriously. You need a change of pace.
If you see a post that you find objectionable, report it, it helps keep the forum clean. But be aware people are allowed a lot of latitude.
If you find my posts to be rude, objectionable, or whatever, well, I got tired of writing polite TL; DR (Too Long, Didn't Read) posts at crybaby whiners. So now I just make it short and nasty.
If you find that funny, well and good. If you find that sad, that's even better.
The Paladin secrets were basically just underpriced spells when you could trigger them on your own turn, with barely a passing resemblance to secrets.
Why use Redemption as a secret, when you could cast it right before charging a minion with Divine Shield into an enemy and instead use it as a discounted Ancestral Spirit.
Better still, that Eye for an Eye can sit in your hand as a 1-mana win condition; just add weapon... say a Light's Justice. 2 mana isn't bad for an killing strike against anyone who has a minion with higher attack than their health (or which can be made to have more attack than their health).
As for 2-damage being too much for taking out a weenie minion - Warriors and Shaman make that trade all the time. The real issue is that the card tends to become less useful for for board position as the game progresses (though it should be pointed out that Druids tend to do quite well with an attack value of 1). A Spiteful Smith can help address this issue, but it's not really worth running a support card for Light's Justice alone. You really want to be running multiple weapons before going for the smith.
As for Repentance - this same complaint can be made about Snipe and Mirror Entity, yet both of those cards continue to see use. If I were to make a change, it would be this: the secret only triggers if it would actually change the health of the minion. None of this Repentance triggering on a Wolfrider nonsense. It's one thing for a trap's effects to be minimized, it's another for them to do absolutely nothing.
Yes - you still need a way to reliably do 1-damage... but as a Paladin, that should be a non-issue.
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All that said - removing the ability to self-trigger secrets definitely changed them from being the most powerful for price to being the least valuable for price.
Of the four Paladin secrets, I think that the worst is Redemption because it works at cross-purposes from their Hero ability. Avenge will probably fix this shortcoming because the Hero token will be one of the worst targets to go for if Avenge is on the board.
Eye for an Eye should not be as strong as Ice Block or Vaporize. Those are secrets that cost 2-mana more. The effect should be closer to a non-secret spell that costs 1-2 mana more (so Mind Blast). However it does need to be avoidable, otherwise you once again run into the situation where it is a discounted spell rather than a secret.
With this in mind, a spell that does 5 damage to your opponent when your hero is damaged by an attack seems more in keeping with the current style of secrets. On the plus side, it would do more damage that you can usually get now. On the minus side, it does 0-damage if your opponent only uses spells to hurt you. Since attacks on the hero are fairly common, this would justify being equivalent to a 2-mana spell rather than a 3-mana spell.
I have already stated how I would change Repentance. I do not think a card should ever have 0 effect.
For every class, hero power is not something you just throw around liberally. If you're doing nothing but hero powering in the early stages of the game, you're probably in a bad spot. For a 2-drop, you can put something like - oh, let's say a generic River Crocolisk on the field, which every turn can do 2 damage without your needing to feed more into it. If it's something big, like Knife Juggler, then 3 or more per turn. Now yeah, it doesn't *hurt* to use Hero Power with Warrior or Hunter, but Paladin players need to know there's time when it's best just not to do anything. Don't activate that Hero power, just wait.
"That's ridiculous" - no, it really isn't. (Okay, your opponent can remove your minions, but you understand what I mean in general; the big fight is on the field). But on the topic of "doing nothing" if you pilot Control Warrior, you know there are times in the game in which you have crystal power to cast a card, but you *don't do it*. You save your Shield Block even if you have leftover crystal so you can get up to seven damage off Shield Slam, you save your Armorsmith so you can use with Whirlwind, you don't drop Acolyte of Pain as 3-drop so an opponent can just hit it with Wrath or Claw / hero power. And Control Warrior is sometimes maligned as a simple deck to play. So if it's so simple for Warrior players to ought to see that sometimes doing nothing is right, why can't Paladins do the same? "But at least Warrior can no-brainer hero power!" 2 armor, big whoop. Don't get me wrong, you can use it at dead points in the game, but Paladin likewise can make use of that token generation to push board at certain points in the game. The hero power for *both* is situational, and best used at different times. I'm not going to say Cult Master is some meta that no Paladin player has ever thought about, but you can certainly see how something like that would be more useful for Paladin than Warrior.
I think - and this is no joke - some players are just naturally suited to a rather straightforward Hunter playstyle, in which you can make fewer bad choices. Kill Command on turn six works as well as on turn three with a Beast in play, and sometimes it even helps to save those cards in hand in case whatever you run into a problem Sen'jin or something plus you can spam your hero power if you don't use a card. When you have Savannah Highmane, you can just throw it out and let your opponent deal with it. It's very "okay do what you do, then I counter". I'm not saying Hunter is whatever no skill deck, you can definitely misplay, but I am saying that I think Paladin players generally have a lot more room for errors. For goodness sake, if you have a big token board and you throw out Redemption, what do you think is going to happen? It's like playing Starving Buzzard on turn two with Hunter - yeah okay, sometimes it's a smart play, but generally you *wait* for that point in the game where you have that synergy to get massive card draw off Unleash the Hounds or whatever small weenie minions.
Now look at some posts in this thread. Players are saying they think Noble Sacrifice is the best card in the Paladin arsenal, where I think it's really not so hot. Like - what am I protecting so eagerly with this 2/1? My opponent is going to attack face with some gigantic minion without testing for traps first? Is that 2/1 going to kill my opponent minion? I just used a card from my hand, what is it that I'm protecting so eagerly? On the plus side, yeah, okay, you throw out Noble Sacrifice, you know you're going to get something out of it. But - no shame on Hunter here, isn't that really the sort of straightforward approach typical of Hunter decks these days? Why are Paladins going down that road? They're not Hunter, they don't play like Hunter, why try to use a Hunter solution?
What sort of solution would be a Paladin solution? Well let's take Redemption. Say you set up a board situation in which you're using Abomination, or Tirion Fordring or Cairne Bloodhoof. Now things get interesting. Yes, your opponent probably has a Silence effect just waiting. But how many can they silence? Then if they don't kill your minion, you just put out another minion that profits from Redemption. Your opponent has to deal with your minions sometime. Sylvanas Windrunner, Sunwalker, there's loads of cards that are really unpleasant with Redemption, and others only mildly so (like Loot Hoarder.) So either your opponent lets you flood the field with these unpleasant minions that are going to do something, in which case you can dispense with Redemption because you're winning anyways at that point - or your opponent kills your minion again immediately, if they can manage it, and you profit.
"But there isn't any meta like that!" Well, there was, only you used to see Redemption and secrets abuse off different decks, especially with Charge mechanic. But Taunt is another way to make minions immediately relevant, it's just a change in the times. Yes, you still have Paladin Control into Tirion Fordring and Ragnaros, you still have Paladin Weenie running off Divine Favor - but Redemption isn't dead. Nor are a lot of other apparently discounted cards, they're just waiting for a Paladin player to pick them up and run a viable deck.
As far as Eye for an Eye and other Paladin secrets - welll yeahhh okay, you know, I could maybe say that there is something not great with Eye for an Eye, too easy to mess with. But stuff like Repentance again - if you're in a pressure situation, your opponent is going to want to put out a big minion, right? Ancient of War against aggro, etc? That's the time for Repentance - not for a slower deck in which you're not exerting some big pressure and your opponent has plenty of time to test. The point of Repentance isn't that it's a weaker version of Hunter's Mark, it's that it could be *any* of the Paladin secrets, and needs to be tested.
To wrap this bit up - yeah okay, you know, let me be clear. I'm not saying Paladin *isn't* underpowered. I'm just saying if that's the case, it's maybe not as bad as some players are saying it is. Also I understand there's a new Paladin secret coming in off Naxxaramas, which will really extend Paladin's range - I think it's like when one of your minions dies, you give another +3/+2. I'm not going to say "omgbbq", but on the other hand, testing those secrets is going to mess with an opponent - if they kill a weenie, they might just make a big minion stronger (bad), whereas right now killing Paladin weenies on the field is *always* the right choice given current available cards because of Redemption (and Noble Sacrifice doesn't really mess with that general testing plan).
If you see a post that you find objectionable, report it, it helps keep the forum clean. But be aware people are allowed a lot of latitude.
If you find my posts to be rude, objectionable, or whatever, well, I got tired of writing polite TL; DR (Too Long, Didn't Read) posts at crybaby whiners. So now I just make it short and nasty.
If you find that funny, well and good. If you find that sad, that's even better.
To wrap this bit up - yeah okay, you know, let me be clear. I'm not saying Paladin *isn't* underpowered. I'm just saying if that's the case, it's maybe not as bad as some players are saying it is. Also I understand there's a new Paladin secret coming in off Naxxaramas, which will really extend Paladin's range - I think it's like when one of your minions dies, you give another +3/+2. I'm not going to say "omgbbq", but on the other hand, testing those secrets is going to mess with an opponent - if they kill a weenie, they might just make a big minion stronger (bad), whereas right now killing Paladin weenies on the field is *always* the right choice given current available cards because of Redemption (and Noble Sacrifice doesn't really mess with that general testing plan).
We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one, Myteq. I re-read my post, and as far as I can tell, I made all the points I wanted to make. You just fundamentally disagree, and that's okay.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you see a post that you find objectionable, report it, it helps keep the forum clean. But be aware people are allowed a lot of latitude.
If you find my posts to be rude, objectionable, or whatever, well, I got tired of writing polite TL; DR (Too Long, Didn't Read) posts at crybaby whiners. So now I just make it short and nasty.
If you find that funny, well and good. If you find that sad, that's even better.
I actually like humility. It allows you to nullify lists like shaman and handlock which have a limited number of threats. It even has synergy with kodo which allows a destruction of a big minion with kodo for 6 mana. It's a powerful effect vs big minions. It's just hard to fit in a deck.
Blessing of Wisdom is ok but it's another card that probably doesn't work too well in a control paladin list because the pace is slow enough that you would only ever draw one card with it, two if very lucky. So it doesn't really solve the card draw problem with control. It's ok for aggro pally because you can just load up on divine shield and protect the minion with blessing. When used offensively it's also inconsistent because if the minion is big enough to want to attack with it anyway you probably want to kill it and if it's small enough that the minion won't attack then you don't actually draw until they find trading with it favorable.
The main issue I have with low cost Paladin spells is they are very situational so it doesn't make a lot of sense to run something like auctioneer because you can't get value trying to keep those spells for draw. It made more sense before they nerfed secrets because you could place auctioneer, cast redemption, then trade with a minion that benefits from redemption then maybe holy light or whatever.
I actually like humility. It allows you to nullify lists like shaman and handlock which have a limited number of threats. It even has synergy with kodo which allows a destruction of a big minion with kodo for 6 mana. It's a powerful effect vs big minions. It's just hard to fit in a deck.
Blessing of Wisdom is ok but it's another card that probably doesn't work too well in a control paladin list because the pace is slow enough that you would only ever draw one card with it, two if very lucky. So it doesn't really solve the card draw problem with control. It's ok for aggro pally because you can just load up on divine shield and protect the minion with blessing. When used offensively it's also inconsistent because if the minion is big enough to want to attack with it anyway you probably want to kill it and if it's small enough that the minion won't attack then you don't actually draw until they find trading with it favorable.
The main issue I have with low cost Paladin spells is they are very situational so it doesn't make a lot of sense to run something like auctioneer because you can't get value trying to keep those spells for draw. It made more sense before they nerfed secrets because you could place auctioneer, cast redemption, then trade with a minion that benefits from redemption then maybe holy light or whatever.
Huh, I guess humility would be a neat combo there, however it needs something more to it. How about a card-draw? That way Paladin can gets some early game card-draw that he needs too. I'll replace that now instead of Silence. I would say that it would be a very useful card to have against Handlocks, and for it to be so cheap to.
I think Blessing of Wisdom is fine as it is. A 1 mana that has potential for multiple card-draws is decent value, especially when you use it twice on the same minion.
An Eye for an Eye could be fixed easily by making it:
"When your hero is attacked, deal that much damage to the attacking character."
That way a attacking minion would injure itself by attacking (most minions would even kill themselves). That would make it and awesome secret.
I've thought about this, too. It would mean that Eye for an Eye will no longer be able to directly generate wins or ties - but it would gain a bit of board impact to make up for it.
The theme would remain the same, the dodge would remain the same, the mid-game utility would go way up - and the end game utility will remain, albeit in a somewhat weakened form.
An Eye for an Eye could be fixed easily by making it:
"When your hero is attacked, deal that much damage to the attacking character."
That way a attacking minion would injure itself by attacking (most minions would even kill themselves). That would make it and awesome secret.
I've thought about this, too. It would mean that Eye for an Eye will no longer be able to directly generate wins or ties - but it would gain a bit of board impact to make up for it.
The theme would remain the same, the dodge would remain the same, the mid-game utility would go way up - and the end game utility will remain, albeit in a somewhat weakened form.
I don't think it would be great. It doesn't solve the fact that they can just hit you with their weakest Minion and it still is a waste of a card. I think the best thing for it to do is to make it so that the trigger lasts throughout the whole turn, which means that it may save your life if the enemy doesn't want to risk dealing a lot of damage to themselves.
An Eye for an Eye could be fixed easily by making it:
"When your hero is attacked, deal that much damage to the attacking character."
That way a attacking minion would injure itself by attacking (most minions would even kill themselves). That would make it and awesome secret.
I've thought about this, too. It would mean that Eye for an Eye will no longer be able to directly generate wins or ties - but it would gain a bit of board impact to make up for it.
The theme would remain the same, the dodge would remain the same, the mid-game utility would go way up - and the end game utility will remain, albeit in a somewhat weakened form.
I don't think it would be great. It doesn't solve the fact that they can just hit you with their weakest Minion and it still is a waste of a card. I think the best thing for it to do is to make it so that the trigger lasts throughout the whole turn, which means that it may save your life if the enemy doesn't want to risk dealing a lot of damage to themselves.
Vaporize and Misdirection can also be 'foiled' in the same way. They're not usually considered wasted cards.
Also you wouldn't necessarily want to use your weakest minion a 1/1 would die with the proposed revision, but a 2/7 would chug along quite nicely.
Paladin needs a good drawing mechanism that isn't costing 8 mana. A good change that will require some strategic positioning and board control is to make Blessing of Wisdom like:
Give this card X durability tokens. When you are dealt damage remove that much durability tokens. At the end of your turn if there are any durability tokens, draw a card.
They are on par with other classes (3 cost Arcane Intellect, 2 cost Wrath at the sacrifice of 1 dmg while on the higher end there's Sprint and Ancient of Lore). I think the gamble early draw with Divine Favor and the solid heal 8 + draw 3 for 8 mana puts the Paladin in a fine place as far as cantrip goes if you take all the neutral card draw into account. As such, I disagree that a change is required. Also keep in mind that the Paladin hero power is essentially the same effect as a Novice Engineer (spend 2 mana, don't spend a card and draw a card next turn).
There was some potential with Eye for an Eye when secrets could activate during your turn but since the change, it's an useless card for sure.The same goes for redemption and you already covered why. I think the cards are fine as is. The Paladin's strengths are buffs, debuffs and the best sweepers (combo'd) out of any class in the game and defense (divine shield, blockers) and all of those strengths are reflected here in the cards above. That being said, I think 3 out of the 5 cards mentioned above could use a change though I don't pretend to know what those balanced changes are. Light's Justice is just a horrible card and completely useless... MAY make sense in some hyper aggro or arena decks but that aside, it's a very niche card and could use some changes to broaden it's appeal but with the Paladin hero power as it is, I think the change you proposed would make it too strong, especially at 2 mana. I'd like to see a completely new card in place of humility simply due to the reasons you mentioned above - it seems lazy to put in a card and throw in a 'rare' that does it 2x better for slightly more mana. For the same reason, I think repentance should be changed but I don't agree with the silence - as far as the negatives you mentioned, all of them apply to the silence effect.. enemy plays a chillwind yeti, card's useless... Something that gives the Paladin immunity for a turn would fit the class and make sense but I doubt it makes sense for 1 mana and to maintain the theme of the other Pally secrets, and to not give it away, it may make sense to find another solution .. one that I again don't pretend to have the answer for.
I think there are far greater Paladin problems to solve, like a reliable card draw mechanic (lay on hands is pretty late in the game & divine favor is far from reliable, depending on the matchup, it may just be a dead card all game). Cards like blessed champion, despite fitting the class archetype, is a useless card for the class as a whole and should be replaced with 'something better.'
My $0.02
Edit: all of that being said, I think the class is in a relatively good place right now and pretty solid.
I have to disagree, right now the Paladin isn't in a great spot and excels at nothing. He is the jack of all trades that isn't great at anything.
Druids are better at Mid-Range buff decks than Paladin.
Shaman is better at minion ramps with some removal.
Mages have overall better board clear.
Warlocks are great at big minions early on.
Warrior is good at staying alive and using weapons.
Priests are better at healing themselves and their creatures.
Hunters are best at rush-down.
Paladin is good at what to be exact? Nothing really at the moment.
The Paladin wipes the board better than any class in the game and for less mana ... (yes, that includes taking spell power Lightning Storm into account - keep the overload mechanic in mind). IMHO, the archetype excels at healing, buffing and board clears .. and has a hint of divine shield thrown in the mix. I think if any class should be complaining, it should be priests as they are only viable if their gimmicks work.
I seem to be finding quite a bit of success with a now relatively standard Paladin deck. Just give it some time, it's important to know when to use your board clears now more than ever due to the Tinkmaster Overspark nerf. Play smart and the Paladin, much like a ton of other classes (Rogue and Shaman instantly come to mind), will treat you very well. Note: I only hit Legend rank once in beta, it was with a Paladin deck.
They are on par with other classes (3 cost Arcane Intellect, 2 cost Wrath at the sacrifice of 1 dmg while on the higher end there's Sprint and Ancient of Lore). I think the gamble early draw with Divine Favor and the solid heal 8 + draw 3 for 8 mana puts the Paladin in a fine place as far as cantrip goes if you take all the neutral card draw into account. As such, I disagree that a change is required. Also keep in mind that the Paladin hero power is essentially the same effect as a Novice Engineer (spend 2 mana, don't spend a card and draw a card next turn).
There was some potential with Eye for an Eye when secrets could activate during your turn but since the change, it's an useless card for sure.The same goes for redemption and you already covered why. I think the cards are fine as is. The Paladin's strengths are buffs, debuffs and the best sweepers (combo'd) out of any class in the game and defense (divine shield, blockers) and all of those strengths are reflected here in the cards above. That being said, I think 3 out of the 5 cards mentioned above could use a change though I don't pretend to know what those balanced changes are. Light's Justice is just a horrible card and completely useless... MAY make sense in some hyper aggro or arena decks but that aside, it's a very niche card and could use some changes to broaden it's appeal but with the Paladin hero power as it is, I think the change you proposed would make it too strong, especially at 2 mana. I'd like to see a completely new card in place of humility simply due to the reasons you mentioned above - it seems lazy to put in a card and throw in a 'rare' that does it 2x better for slightly more mana. For the same reason, I think repentance should be changed but I don't agree with the silence - as far as the negatives you mentioned, all of them apply to the silence effect.. enemy plays a chillwind yeti, card's useless... Something that gives the Paladin immunity for a turn would fit the class and make sense but I doubt it makes sense for 1 mana and to maintain the theme of the other Pally secrets, and to not give it away, it may make sense to find another solution .. one that I again don't pretend to have the answer for.
I think there are far greater Paladin problems to solve, like a reliable card draw mechanic (lay on hands is pretty late in the game & divine favor is far from reliable, depending on the matchup, it may just be a dead card all game). Cards like blessed champion, despite fitting the class archetype, is a useless card for the class as a whole and should be replaced with 'something better.'
My $0.02
Edit: all of that being said, I think the class is in a relatively good place right now and pretty solid.
I have to disagree, right now the Paladin isn't in a great spot and excels at nothing. He is the jack of all trades that isn't great at anything.
Druids are better at Mid-Range buff decks than Paladin.
Shaman is better at minion ramps with some removal.
Mages have overall better board clear.
Warlocks are great at big minions early on.
Warrior is good at staying alive and using weapons.
Priests are better at healing themselves and their creatures.
Hunters are best at rush-down.
Paladin is good at what to be exact? Nothing really at the moment.
The Paladin wipes the board better than any class in the game and for less mana ... (yes, that includes taking spell power Lightning Storm into account - keep the overload mechanic in mind). IMHO, the archetype excels at healing, buffing and board clears .. and has a hint of divine shield thrown in the mix. I think if any class should be complaining, it should be priests as they are only viable if their gimmicks work.
I seem to be finding quite a bit of success with a now relatively standard Paladin deck. Just give it some time, it's important to know when to use your board clears now more than ever due to the Tinkmaster Overspark nerf. Play smart and the Paladin, much like a ton of other classes (Rogue and Shaman instantly come to mind), will treat you very well. Note: I only hit Legend rank once in beta, it was with a Paladin deck.
While True, I still think that the secrets and light's justice do needs buffs of some kind. Paladin has the most class cards that no one uses. It is kinda sad actually. People usually take a Truesilver, Consecration, Equality, Aldor, Tirion, and Guardian of Kings. While a lot of other classes like shaman use like 50% of their class cards in their deck.
I main Paladin and am dedicated to the class, it's always my go to archetype in games and the fact that it's the underdog right now means that having success with a deck, particularly if it's your own creation, is 100000000x more rewarding than just mindlessly playing out broken net decks like midrange Huntard and Zoolock.
That said, the Paladin class cards are absolutely awful compared to most other classes. It's secrets are just as useless as the Mage, but that class has Frostbolt, Fireball and Polymorph... With the best hero power in the game.
Currently our hero power is the least useful and only a couple class cards deserve to see the light of day and one of them is a legendary.
The problem is as said above, we are currently the jack of all trades master of none, and at the top of the meta you absolutely must be the master of something or you will be chewed up.
When blizzard was creating the classes it clearly expected Paladin's to be the board control, buff class. Large armies of cheap but buffed minions.
The only problem is that other classes have better buffs, most of ours are terrible, and the meta is extremely unforgiving of over-extension.
Along with Priest, Paladin needs a serious overhaul to be truly on par with the competition, and Blizzard are not going to do that. Just look at our new class card, an RNG buff secret, pretty much the last thing we needed.
Just pray that Naxx neutrals have some synergy with our many currently useless class cards.
I main Paladin and am dedicated to the class, it's always my go to archetype in games and the fact that it's the underdog right now means that having success with a deck, particularly if it's your own creation, is 100000000x more rewarding than just mindlessly playing out broken net decks like midrange Huntard and Zoolock.
That said, the Paladin class cards are absolutely awful compared to most other classes. It's secrets are just as useless as the Mage, but that class has Frostbolt, Fireball and Polymorph... With the best hero power in the game.
Currently our hero power is the least useful and only a couple class cards deserve to see the light of day and one of them is a legendary.
The problem is as said above, we are currently the jack of all trades master of none, and at the top of the meta you absolutely must be the master of something or you will be chewed up.
When blizzard was creating the classes it clearly expected Paladin's to be the board control, buff class. Large armies of cheap but buffed minions.
The only problem is that other classes have better buffs, most of ours are terrible, and the meta is extremely unforgiving of over-extension.
Along with Priest, Paladin needs a serious overhaul to be truly on par with the competition, and Blizzard are not going to do that. Just look at our new class card, an RNG buff secret, pretty much the last thing we needed.
Just pray that Naxx neutrals have some synergy with our many currently useless class cards.
The new card isn't horrible though and will help the Paladin somewhat. It allows some good early game minions, and combos with minions like Worgen Infiltrator and your own Silver Hand Recruit, something that is rare to see.
However it is pretty silly, because Secrets are not Secrets on the Paladin anymore. They are just quick spells that the enemy can clearly recognize and react to. If all of the secrets got buffs like I suggested, it would make the Paladin an overall better class to play as. I could see maybe Avenge, Noble Sacrifice, and Redemption as staples. While Eye for an Eye and Repentance would be a meta decision if there is a lot of charge and aggro.
However it is pretty silly, because Secrets are not Secrets on the Paladin anymore. They are just quick spells that the enemy can clearly recognize and react to. If all of the secrets got buffs like I suggested, it would make the Paladin an overall better class to play as. I could see maybe Avenge, Noble Sacrifice, and Redemption as staples. While Eye for an Eye and Repentance would be a meta decision if there is a lot of charge and aggro.
Here I have to disagree with you.
Right now the Paladin secrets are secrets (though I will admit that they are rather weak ones). Before the nerf they were just quick spells that a Paladin player would cast-and-trigger same turn, making them nothing like any other Secret in the entire game.
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Why does no one use them?
I've played a lot of Paladin to know where he stands in the current Meta. Recently people are using a "Shockadin" deck, which involve heavy aggro. Some of us Paladins do not like this playstyle and prefer to be a more Mid-Range or more Control like playstyle. The reason why that playstyle is dying is because there are so many Paladin cards that are underpowered. Let's go through all of them and see why each one is underpowered and what change we could make to them.
Light's Justice
The Light's Justice is probably one of the worst weapons in the game. The fact that most early drops are 2 health means that you just take way more damage than you should. I think there would be an easy way to fix this and make it a viable card. "2 Mana, Immunity while Attacking." I think this card would see a lot more play as it allows you to trade with enemies and take no extra damage, it is kinda like a Fireball for the Paladin which he desperately needs.
Humility
Humility is by far the worst Paladin card I see no one ever use. This is because the Aldor Peacekeeper is such a better card that also puts a 3/3 on the field. I think the best way to fix it is to make Humility, "2 Mana, Reduce a Minion's Health to 1 and Draw a Card." Now it gives the Paladin some early card-draw that he needs to help get him started. It would also stop early aggro and giants decks, so I would put it in my deck.
The Secrets
The Paladin Secrets are by far the worst secrets in the game. Especially now that you cannot activate secrets on your turn. Noble Sacrifice is the only good secret, however it defeats the point of a Secret when it is the only good one. Let's go over each of the other secrets and discuss why they are so bad.
EDIT: I took out Redemption because it really doesn't need a change. The Naxxramas update will be a lot of combo possibilities, so I think it should stay as it is.
Eye for an Eye
Eye for an Eye is just a bad card because it doesn't change a thing. The opponent usually attacks with their smallest minion anyway because of Noble Sacrifice, so you will probably only deal 1 to 3 damage to the enemy at most. The idea of the card itself is weak, so it would be dumb to say "The enemy takes double damage" or something along those lines. I think a better route would be to make it so "When your hero takes damage, deal that damage plus 5 more to the character that attacked you." Now it deals 5 extra damage and can kill minions that attack you. Also it can be effected by Spell Damage.
Repentance
Repentance is a very bad card because the enemy can just put out their weakest minion and it means little to nothing except a waste of your card. I think a way more interesting card would be "When the enemy plays a minion, silence it and then lower its health to 1." This combined with my idea for the Light's Justice would make this a 3 Mana Assassinate for 2 cards. However the enemy decides what minion could have that happen to.
Hammer of Wrath
HoW isn't a bad card, however it suffers from the problem that Paladin has way to many viable 4 mana cards. Consecration, Truesilver Champion, and this card of course. Because of this, you usually have 6 or more 4 mana cards in your deck. So I propose this change, "3 Mana, Deal 3 Damage and Draw a Card." Making it one less Mana would be perfect and would not be overpowered. 3 Mana for 3 Damage plus a card draw is fair.
Blessed Champion
Blessed Champion is such a bad card that's value is way to little for how much Mana it costs. I think a more interesting change would be to change how it works, "5 Mana, Double the Attack and Health of a Minion." Now you can do a Blessed-Leeroy combo for 9 Mana that is pretty good. It would be decent for both Aggro and Control decks.
Holy Wrath
Holy Wrath is a bad card because it costs to much and relies on the RNG way to much. I do like the RNG aspect, but I think it should be a bit more focused. My suggestion would be to change it to, "Draw a card between 5 and 12 Mana and deal damage equal to its cost." Now you will always know you will deal at least 5 Damage. However you can no longer deal 20 damage. However you deal 12 damage if you have Mountain Giants.
Guardian of Kings
Guardian of Kings is not a bad card for any stretch of the imagination. It allows you to get a huge health lead on your opponent and get a pretty strong body out. However, when compared to something like Fire Elemental, it falls pretty short when it comes to value. My propose change would be, "6 Mana, 5/6, Restore 5 Health." It now costs less and can heal minions, but it heals for less now.
Bonus Card: Sha'tar Crusader
The Sha'tar Crusader is a card I came up with. It is the card that is needed for early game. It stalls the opponent, but it isn't overpowered at all. It is a reliable turn 1 play that is good for almost any situation. It protects your early minions, and it is actually pretty good to play an Argent Protector on Turn 2 with this.
Where would the Paladin stand after these changes?
I believe that we would see a lot of variety of decks for Paladin. Some may go a weapons route with the Light's Justice change. Some might use the new secrets in aggro decks. Holy Wrath and Hammer of Wrath will give some more reliable card draw to the Paladin which he desperately needs. Blessed Champion may be used in some high stat minion play, like with Boulder Fist Ogres. Humility will make Paladins a hard counter to Handlocks like they should be. And Guardian of Kings will be able to get much more value. I don't think that this would make Paladin an overpowered class, but maybe in the top 4 viable classes to play now.
There was some potential with Eye for an Eye when secrets could activate during your turn but since the change, it's an useless card for sure.The same goes for redemption and you already covered why. I think the cards are fine as is. The Paladin's strengths are buffs, debuffs and the best sweepers (combo'd) out of any class in the game and defense (divine shield, blockers) and all of those strengths are reflected here in the cards above. That being said, I think 3 out of the 5 cards mentioned above could use a change though I don't pretend to know what those balanced changes are. Light's Justice is just a horrible card and completely useless... MAY make sense in some hyper aggro or arena decks but that aside, it's a very niche card and could use some changes to broaden it's appeal but with the Paladin hero power as it is, I think the change you proposed would make it too strong, especially at 2 mana. I'd like to see a completely new card in place of humility simply due to the reasons you mentioned above - it seems lazy to put in a card and throw in a 'rare' that does it 2x better for slightly more mana. For the same reason, I think repentance should be changed but I don't agree with the silence - as far as the negatives you mentioned, all of them apply to the silence effect.. enemy plays a chillwind yeti, card's useless... Something that gives the Paladin immunity for a turn would fit the class and make sense but I doubt it makes sense for 1 mana and to maintain the theme of the other Pally secrets, and to not give it away, it may make sense to find another solution .. one that I again don't pretend to have the answer for.
I think there are far greater Paladin problems to solve, like a reliable card draw mechanic (lay on hands is pretty late in the game & divine favor is far from reliable, depending on the matchup, it may just be a dead card all game). Cards like blessed champion, despite fitting the class archetype, is a useless card for the class as a whole and should be replaced with 'something better.'
My $0.02
Edit: all of that being said, I think the class is in a relatively good place right now and pretty solid.
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I have to disagree, right now the Paladin isn't in a great spot and excels at nothing. He is the jack of all trades that isn't great at anything.
Druids are better at Mid-Range buff decks than Paladin.
Shaman is better at minion ramps with some removal.
Mages have overall better board clear.
Warlocks are great at big minions early on.
Warrior is good at staying alive and using weapons.
Priests are better at healing themselves and their creatures.
Hunters are best at rush-down.
Paladin is good at what to be exact? Nothing really at the moment.
Gigantic life gain, board clears, secrets, weapons, nasty legendary. What do you want, to be better than all other classes put together? Giving Paladins a 3-drop Polymorph for 2/2, never mind ignoring Divine Shield, honestly. You're using it to whack out Ysera or Ragnaros or Cairne or something of that class, honestly, who uses Hex or Polymorph on Argent Squire or Scarlet Crusader? and you could probably care less about a 2/2 - just the right size for Consecration or whatever.
You used to be able to straight out abuse Redemption and Eye for an Eye. Not use, but abuse, blatant BS "I play Leeroy Jenkins, Redemption, kill your board then facecharge for 6!" "I play Redemption, ram Cairne, then profit!" "I play Alexstrasza and hit you for 15!" Now you can use them, not abuse them. Not insanely OP, but still useful - FOR THE RIGHT DECK. You can't just throw Redemption into most Control Paladin builds, nor can you just throw it into Paladin weenie builds, you need to plan your deck around it.
Now yeah, you could make cases for Eye for an Eye being bad, Light's Justice being bad, whatever. But when you start saying everything is bad with no redeeming qualities when that's not quite true, and put out OP fixes, that's just salt. Even the proposed fix for Light's Justice is the equivalent of saving 6 crystal on Mage spell power; that's huge! - granted weapons are vulnerable to weapon removal, and you can't activate Enrage abilities on your own minions, but are you really going to be salty over losing a 2-drop weapon when you have Sword of Justice or certainly Truesilver Champion or Ashbringer coming up sometime?
If you're bitter and angry and feel like your class is underpowered, take a break and play Hunter or something, seriously. You need a change of pace.
If you see a post that you find objectionable, report it, it helps keep the forum clean. But be aware people are allowed a lot of latitude.
If you find my posts to be rude, objectionable, or whatever, well, I got tired of writing polite TL; DR (Too Long, Didn't Read) posts at crybaby whiners. So now I just make it short and nasty.
If you find that funny, well and good. If you find that sad, that's even better.
The Paladin secrets were basically just underpriced spells when you could trigger them on your own turn, with barely a passing resemblance to secrets.
Why use Redemption as a secret, when you could cast it right before charging a minion with Divine Shield into an enemy and instead use it as a discounted Ancestral Spirit.
Better still, that Eye for an Eye can sit in your hand as a 1-mana win condition; just add weapon... say a Light's Justice. 2 mana isn't bad for an killing strike against anyone who has a minion with higher attack than their health (or which can be made to have more attack than their health).
As for 2-damage being too much for taking out a weenie minion - Warriors and Shaman make that trade all the time. The real issue is that the card tends to become less useful for for board position as the game progresses (though it should be pointed out that Druids tend to do quite well with an attack value of 1). A Spiteful Smith can help address this issue, but it's not really worth running a support card for Light's Justice alone. You really want to be running multiple weapons before going for the smith.
As for Repentance - this same complaint can be made about Snipe and Mirror Entity, yet both of those cards continue to see use. If I were to make a change, it would be this: the secret only triggers if it would actually change the health of the minion. None of this Repentance triggering on a Wolfrider nonsense. It's one thing for a trap's effects to be minimized, it's another for them to do absolutely nothing.
Yes - you still need a way to reliably do 1-damage... but as a Paladin, that should be a non-issue.
===
All that said - removing the ability to self-trigger secrets definitely changed them from being the most powerful for price to being the least valuable for price.
Of the four Paladin secrets, I think that the worst is Redemption because it works at cross-purposes from their Hero ability. Avenge will probably fix this shortcoming because the Hero token will be one of the worst targets to go for if Avenge is on the board.
Eye for an Eye should not be as strong as Ice Block or Vaporize. Those are secrets that cost 2-mana more. The effect should be closer to a non-secret spell that costs 1-2 mana more (so Mind Blast). However it does need to be avoidable, otherwise you once again run into the situation where it is a discounted spell rather than a secret.
With this in mind, a spell that does 5 damage to your opponent when your hero is damaged by an attack seems more in keeping with the current style of secrets. On the plus side, it would do more damage that you can usually get now. On the minus side, it does 0-damage if your opponent only uses spells to hurt you. Since attacks on the hero are fairly common, this would justify being equivalent to a 2-mana spell rather than a 3-mana spell.
I have already stated how I would change Repentance. I do not think a card should ever have 0 effect.
For every class, hero power is not something you just throw around liberally. If you're doing nothing but hero powering in the early stages of the game, you're probably in a bad spot. For a 2-drop, you can put something like - oh, let's say a generic River Crocolisk on the field, which every turn can do 2 damage without your needing to feed more into it. If it's something big, like Knife Juggler, then 3 or more per turn. Now yeah, it doesn't *hurt* to use Hero Power with Warrior or Hunter, but Paladin players need to know there's time when it's best just not to do anything. Don't activate that Hero power, just wait.
"That's ridiculous" - no, it really isn't. (Okay, your opponent can remove your minions, but you understand what I mean in general; the big fight is on the field). But on the topic of "doing nothing" if you pilot Control Warrior, you know there are times in the game in which you have crystal power to cast a card, but you *don't do it*. You save your Shield Block even if you have leftover crystal so you can get up to seven damage off Shield Slam, you save your Armorsmith so you can use with Whirlwind, you don't drop Acolyte of Pain as 3-drop so an opponent can just hit it with Wrath or Claw / hero power. And Control Warrior is sometimes maligned as a simple deck to play. So if it's so simple for Warrior players to ought to see that sometimes doing nothing is right, why can't Paladins do the same? "But at least Warrior can no-brainer hero power!" 2 armor, big whoop. Don't get me wrong, you can use it at dead points in the game, but Paladin likewise can make use of that token generation to push board at certain points in the game. The hero power for *both* is situational, and best used at different times. I'm not going to say Cult Master is some meta that no Paladin player has ever thought about, but you can certainly see how something like that would be more useful for Paladin than Warrior.
I think - and this is no joke - some players are just naturally suited to a rather straightforward Hunter playstyle, in which you can make fewer bad choices. Kill Command on turn six works as well as on turn three with a Beast in play, and sometimes it even helps to save those cards in hand in case whatever you run into a problem Sen'jin or something plus you can spam your hero power if you don't use a card. When you have Savannah Highmane, you can just throw it out and let your opponent deal with it. It's very "okay do what you do, then I counter". I'm not saying Hunter is whatever no skill deck, you can definitely misplay, but I am saying that I think Paladin players generally have a lot more room for errors. For goodness sake, if you have a big token board and you throw out Redemption, what do you think is going to happen? It's like playing Starving Buzzard on turn two with Hunter - yeah okay, sometimes it's a smart play, but generally you *wait* for that point in the game where you have that synergy to get massive card draw off Unleash the Hounds or whatever small weenie minions.
Now look at some posts in this thread. Players are saying they think Noble Sacrifice is the best card in the Paladin arsenal, where I think it's really not so hot. Like - what am I protecting so eagerly with this 2/1? My opponent is going to attack face with some gigantic minion without testing for traps first? Is that 2/1 going to kill my opponent minion? I just used a card from my hand, what is it that I'm protecting so eagerly? On the plus side, yeah, okay, you throw out Noble Sacrifice, you know you're going to get something out of it. But - no shame on Hunter here, isn't that really the sort of straightforward approach typical of Hunter decks these days? Why are Paladins going down that road? They're not Hunter, they don't play like Hunter, why try to use a Hunter solution?
What sort of solution would be a Paladin solution? Well let's take Redemption. Say you set up a board situation in which you're using Abomination, or Tirion Fordring or Cairne Bloodhoof. Now things get interesting. Yes, your opponent probably has a Silence effect just waiting. But how many can they silence? Then if they don't kill your minion, you just put out another minion that profits from Redemption. Your opponent has to deal with your minions sometime. Sylvanas Windrunner, Sunwalker, there's loads of cards that are really unpleasant with Redemption, and others only mildly so (like Loot Hoarder.) So either your opponent lets you flood the field with these unpleasant minions that are going to do something, in which case you can dispense with Redemption because you're winning anyways at that point - or your opponent kills your minion again immediately, if they can manage it, and you profit.
"But there isn't any meta like that!" Well, there was, only you used to see Redemption and secrets abuse off different decks, especially with Charge mechanic. But Taunt is another way to make minions immediately relevant, it's just a change in the times. Yes, you still have Paladin Control into Tirion Fordring and Ragnaros, you still have Paladin Weenie running off Divine Favor - but Redemption isn't dead. Nor are a lot of other apparently discounted cards, they're just waiting for a Paladin player to pick them up and run a viable deck.
As far as Eye for an Eye and other Paladin secrets - welll yeahhh okay, you know, I could maybe say that there is something not great with Eye for an Eye, too easy to mess with. But stuff like Repentance again - if you're in a pressure situation, your opponent is going to want to put out a big minion, right? Ancient of War against aggro, etc? That's the time for Repentance - not for a slower deck in which you're not exerting some big pressure and your opponent has plenty of time to test. The point of Repentance isn't that it's a weaker version of Hunter's Mark, it's that it could be *any* of the Paladin secrets, and needs to be tested.
To wrap this bit up - yeah okay, you know, let me be clear. I'm not saying Paladin *isn't* underpowered. I'm just saying if that's the case, it's maybe not as bad as some players are saying it is. Also I understand there's a new Paladin secret coming in off Naxxaramas, which will really extend Paladin's range - I think it's like when one of your minions dies, you give another +3/+2. I'm not going to say "omgbbq", but on the other hand, testing those secrets is going to mess with an opponent - if they kill a weenie, they might just make a big minion stronger (bad), whereas right now killing Paladin weenies on the field is *always* the right choice given current available cards because of Redemption (and Noble Sacrifice doesn't really mess with that general testing plan).
If you see a post that you find objectionable, report it, it helps keep the forum clean. But be aware people are allowed a lot of latitude.
If you find my posts to be rude, objectionable, or whatever, well, I got tired of writing polite TL; DR (Too Long, Didn't Read) posts at crybaby whiners. So now I just make it short and nasty.
If you find that funny, well and good. If you find that sad, that's even better.
^ This
We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one, Myteq. I re-read my post, and as far as I can tell, I made all the points I wanted to make. You just fundamentally disagree, and that's okay.
If you see a post that you find objectionable, report it, it helps keep the forum clean. But be aware people are allowed a lot of latitude.
If you find my posts to be rude, objectionable, or whatever, well, I got tired of writing polite TL; DR (Too Long, Didn't Read) posts at crybaby whiners. So now I just make it short and nasty.
If you find that funny, well and good. If you find that sad, that's even better.
What really rubs me the wrong way is why Mages can get super good cards like Mana Wyrm, but the Paladin has nothing like that.
All of the early game plays as Paladins are just bad cards that need a boost. Maybe with the new avenge I can put a Avenge + Worgen Infiltrator.
I actually like humility. It allows you to nullify lists like shaman and handlock which have a limited number of threats. It even has synergy with kodo which allows a destruction of a big minion with kodo for 6 mana. It's a powerful effect vs big minions. It's just hard to fit in a deck.
Blessing of Wisdom is ok but it's another card that probably doesn't work too well in a control paladin list because the pace is slow enough that you would only ever draw one card with it, two if very lucky. So it doesn't really solve the card draw problem with control. It's ok for aggro pally because you can just load up on divine shield and protect the minion with blessing. When used offensively it's also inconsistent because if the minion is big enough to want to attack with it anyway you probably want to kill it and if it's small enough that the minion won't attack then you don't actually draw until they find trading with it favorable.
The main issue I have with low cost Paladin spells is they are very situational so it doesn't make a lot of sense to run something like auctioneer because you can't get value trying to keep those spells for draw. It made more sense before they nerfed secrets because you could place auctioneer, cast redemption, then trade with a minion that benefits from redemption then maybe holy light or whatever.
Huh, I guess humility would be a neat combo there, however it needs something more to it. How about a card-draw? That way Paladin can gets some early game card-draw that he needs too. I'll replace that now instead of Silence. I would say that it would be a very useful card to have against Handlocks, and for it to be so cheap to.
I think Blessing of Wisdom is fine as it is. A 1 mana that has potential for multiple card-draws is decent value, especially when you use it twice on the same minion.
I've thought about this, too. It would mean that Eye for an Eye will no longer be able to directly generate wins or ties - but it would gain a bit of board impact to make up for it.
The theme would remain the same, the dodge would remain the same, the mid-game utility would go way up - and the end game utility will remain, albeit in a somewhat weakened form.
I don't think it would be great. It doesn't solve the fact that they can just hit you with their weakest Minion and it still is a waste of a card. I think the best thing for it to do is to make it so that the trigger lasts throughout the whole turn, which means that it may save your life if the enemy doesn't want to risk dealing a lot of damage to themselves.
Vaporize and Misdirection can also be 'foiled' in the same way. They're not usually considered wasted cards.
Also you wouldn't necessarily want to use your weakest minion a 1/1 would die with the proposed revision, but a 2/7 would chug along quite nicely.
Paladin needs a good drawing mechanism that isn't costing 8 mana. A good change that will require some strategic positioning and board control is to make Blessing of Wisdom like:
Give this card X durability tokens. When you are dealt damage remove that much durability tokens. At the end of your turn if there are any durability tokens, draw a card.
Where X >=6.
They are on par with other classes (3 cost Arcane Intellect, 2 cost Wrath at the sacrifice of 1 dmg while on the higher end there's Sprint and Ancient of Lore). I think the gamble early draw with Divine Favor and the solid heal 8 + draw 3 for 8 mana puts the Paladin in a fine place as far as cantrip goes if you take all the neutral card draw into account. As such, I disagree that a change is required. Also keep in mind that the Paladin hero power is essentially the same effect as a Novice Engineer (spend 2 mana, don't spend a card and draw a card next turn).
The Paladin wipes the board better than any class in the game and for less mana ... (yes, that includes taking spell power Lightning Storm into account - keep the overload mechanic in mind). IMHO, the archetype excels at healing, buffing and board clears .. and has a hint of divine shield thrown in the mix. I think if any class should be complaining, it should be priests as they are only viable if their gimmicks work.
I seem to be finding quite a bit of success with a now relatively standard Paladin deck. Just give it some time, it's important to know when to use your board clears now more than ever due to the Tinkmaster Overspark nerf. Play smart and the Paladin, much like a ton of other classes (Rogue and Shaman instantly come to mind), will treat you very well. Note: I only hit Legend rank once in beta, it was with a Paladin deck.
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While True, I still think that the secrets and light's justice do needs buffs of some kind. Paladin has the most class cards that no one uses. It is kinda sad actually. People usually take a Truesilver, Consecration, Equality, Aldor, Tirion, and Guardian of Kings. While a lot of other classes like shaman use like 50% of their class cards in their deck.
I main Paladin and am dedicated to the class, it's always my go to archetype in games and the fact that it's the underdog right now means that having success with a deck, particularly if it's your own creation, is 100000000x more rewarding than just mindlessly playing out broken net decks like midrange Huntard and Zoolock.
That said, the Paladin class cards are absolutely awful compared to most other classes. It's secrets are just as useless as the Mage, but that class has Frostbolt, Fireball and Polymorph... With the best hero power in the game.
Currently our hero power is the least useful and only a couple class cards deserve to see the light of day and one of them is a legendary.
The problem is as said above, we are currently the jack of all trades master of none, and at the top of the meta you absolutely must be the master of something or you will be chewed up.
When blizzard was creating the classes it clearly expected Paladin's to be the board control, buff class. Large armies of cheap but buffed minions.
The only problem is that other classes have better buffs, most of ours are terrible, and the meta is extremely unforgiving of over-extension.
Along with Priest, Paladin needs a serious overhaul to be truly on par with the competition, and Blizzard are not going to do that. Just look at our new class card, an RNG buff secret, pretty much the last thing we needed.
Just pray that Naxx neutrals have some synergy with our many currently useless class cards.
The new card isn't horrible though and will help the Paladin somewhat. It allows some good early game minions, and combos with minions like Worgen Infiltrator and your own Silver Hand Recruit, something that is rare to see.
However it is pretty silly, because Secrets are not Secrets on the Paladin anymore. They are just quick spells that the enemy can clearly recognize and react to. If all of the secrets got buffs like I suggested, it would make the Paladin an overall better class to play as. I could see maybe Avenge, Noble Sacrifice, and Redemption as staples. While Eye for an Eye and Repentance would be a meta decision if there is a lot of charge and aggro.
Here I have to disagree with you.
Right now the Paladin secrets are secrets (though I will admit that they are rather weak ones). Before the nerf they were just quick spells that a Paladin player would cast-and-trigger same turn, making them nothing like any other Secret in the entire game.