Quote from Quarkqt »

Naxx will come out soon and Redemption will be very strong in my opinion. There are insane Deathratle combos with this card.As far as I know it works like replaying the card just with 1HP so when they silence your good deathrattle minions like Tirion and kill them u gain a 1HP copy. The minion itself isnt that important but they wasted 1 silence and u still got the Deathrattle. I recently faced a Paladin who used Abomination + Redemption as additional boardclear vs agro. First deathrattle removes low hp minions and divine shields then he gets another abomination which cleares the board. Just think about all the nice combos. Like turn 2 Nerubian Egg turn 3 sunfury taunt it up into redemption and get some buff cards like blessings of might/king for the next 1hp egg.

 

Edit: Every class has good and shitty cards. There are cards u will never see, not even in fun decks.

@Hammer of Wrath.... you shouldnt compare it to Wrath, but to Starfire. Both cards can deal DMG to any Character and draw a card. Hammer 4 Mana 3 Dmg Starfire 6 Mana 5 Damage.I'm currently Rank 4 (rank 7 to 4 without loosing a single game) with a Paladin midrange deck using 2 of them and I love this card. Sometimes it worked as a finisher into the face or to remove those nasty miracle 3 drops etc. against shaman u can remove manatides, flametounge, spirit wolfes etc.  It has good combo potential with spellpower aswell.

I agree and that is why I removed redemption from the list. However it isn't fair that the Paladin gets the dump of bad cards (like 6) while the other classes have 2 or 3 bad cards at the most. 

Rogue dump cards off the top of my head:

1. Vanish
2. Headcrack
3. Sinister Strike
4. Kidnapper
5. Master of Disguise
6. Patient Assassin
7. Edwin VanCleef

And until people realized how well it fit into Miracle, Preparation was usually on this list.

So no - the other classes do not all have 2 or 3 bad cards at most.

BTW - I'm not trying to say that Rogue is in a bad place right now (it's not). But you can't just look to the dump cards and say: oh it's all their fault.

Quote from Triskaidekaphilia »

Rogue dump cards off the top of my head:

1. Vanish
2. Headcrack
3. Sinister Strike
4. Kidnapper
5. Master of Disguise
6. Patient Assassin
7. Edwin VanCleef

And until people realized how well it fit into Miracle, Preparation was usually on this list.

So no - the other classes do not all have 2 or 3 bad cards at most.

BTW - I'm not trying to say that Rogue is in a bad place right now (it's not). But you can't just look to the dump cards and say: oh it's all their fault.

Edwin isn't a dump card, a lot of miracles run it. I personally find Kidnapper to be the only true horrible card that you have 0% reason to play ever. The other cards can be playable in certain decks and have useful moments. However Kidnapper is the one that truly sucks 100% of the time. And maybe to a similar lesser extent, Patient Assassin.

Quote from G4merGuy09 »

Edwin isn't a dump card, a lot of miracles run it. I personally find Kidnapper to be the only true horrible card that you have 0% reason to play ever. The other cards can be playable in certain decks and have useful moments. However Kidnapper is the one that truly sucks 100% of the time. And maybe to a similar lesser extent, Patient Assassin.

 If your measure for "dump card" is no one has a reason to run it ever - then the only Pally cards that fit are Eye for an Eye and Blessed Champion. I have seen each of the other cards get used in certain decks and have useful moments.

As for Edwin in Miracle, what do you think inspired the deck in the first place? Miracle is basically the only deck type where Edwin has a chance to be useful, and he's still so unreliable that he's usually replaced with Leeroy, Malygos, Questing Adventurers, or Mana Addicts.  Stop and think about that for the moment. The Rogue class Legendary usually gets cut from the deck type that was built for him because he's not good or reliable enough. Yes - he is a dump card.

Quote from G4merGuy09 »

Quote from Triskaidekaphilia »

Rogue dump cards off the top of my head:

1. Vanish
2. Headcrack
3. Sinister Strike
4. Kidnapper
5. Master of Disguise
6. Patient Assassin
7. Edwin VanCleef

And until people realized how well it fit into Miracle, Preparation was usually on this list.

So no - the other classes do not all have 2 or 3 bad cards at most.

BTW - I'm not trying to say that Rogue is in a bad place right now (it's not). But you can't just look to the dump cards and say: oh it's all their fault.

Edwin isn't a dump card, a lot of miracles run it. I personally find Kidnapper to be the only true horrible card that you have 0% reason to play ever. The other cards can be playable in certain decks and have useful moments. However Kidnapper is the one that truly sucks 100% of the time. And maybe to a similar lesser extent, Patient Assassin.

You're outside of your mind, sir. Headcrack and Sinister Strike are both amazing in Miragos Rogue. Master of Disguise is gonna be amazing once Naxx - stealthed minion gains +1/+1 each turn. Edwin has uses in both tempo and miracle rogue. Lastly, patient assassin is a cheap 2turn gamble on an assassinate, for 2 mana... also worth it.

You have one useless card in that list... that can't be viable regardless of play style - and if you consider mill rogue, then Kidnapper is technically a viable card - the combo mechanic hurts it.. but it works. At least it's reliable and you know what you'll get... while Holy Wrath is just a plain useless card... Arcane Explosion is a pretty useless card without spell damage... which makes it at the very least a 4 cost card... I dunno... I think rogues are in a fine place and in line with most other classes as far as 'dump' or useless cards go. 

Moonfire is amazing in Malygos Druid - that doesn't make it a good card.

Arcane Explosion is be the most efficient board clear in Malygos Mage - that doesn't make it an efficient board clear.

If you need a 9-mana legendary to be in play (and stay in play) before a card has any utility, it's not a good card.

Sure, but if there's a use for it then it's by definition also not a useless card, right?

I added a bonus custom card Idea and changed Holy Wrath and Blessed Champion.

It has been awhile since I last posted. I just want your guy's opinion on the Paladin now. Do you think he is still underpowered? I still do since he still has tons of dead cards that see no play.

Quote from G4merGuy09 »

It has been awhile since I last posted. I just want your guy's opinion on the Paladin now. Do you think he is still underpowered? I still do since he still has tons of dead cards that see no play.

I think nearly every class has a set of dead cards that see no play, it's just that Paladin has a higher amount than those of other classes. 

In my opinion, Paladins, especially Control Paladins are not underpowered to say the least, it is rather a deck that is full of answers when played right. Yes there are dead cards in the class, but when you make the best of its useful cards, it is a solid class from core cards such as Consecration, Truesilver, and Aldor etc. All in all, I don't think they're under-powered, just slightly under-appreciated and underused, Paladin decks never dominated the meta, but never scuffled either.

Quote from Rover775 »

Quote from G4merGuy09 »

It has been awhile since I last posted. I just want your guy's opinion on the Paladin now. Do you think he is still underpowered? I still do since he still has tons of dead cards that see no play.

I think nearly every class has a set of dead cards that see no play, it's just that Paladin has a higher amount than those of other classes. While Paladin hasn't ever been the best class in Hearthstone, it hasn't been the worst either.

In my opinion, Paladins, especially Control Paladins are not underpowered to say the least, it is rather a deck that is full of answers when played right. Yes there are dead cards in the class, but when you make the best of its useful cards, it is a solid class from core cards such as Consecration, Truesilver, and Aldor etc. 

I don't think Paladin is a bad class by any stretch of the Imagination, but I just hate how many dead cards he has. It makes Paladin pretty boring to play since you are forced to have every staple card to be remotely effective. Imagine playing Paladin without truesilver or consecrate and equality? That is just a death sentence. Unlike Druid who just has a bunch of good cards and is effective even if you don't have force of nature/savage roar combo. 

I wish that Blizzard would just give the Paladin some more interesting options like with Light's Justice or his bad secrets that no one uses. I really hate their new philosophy of "Only New Cards, no balance changes" that they set up. Sure, if something became to overpowered they would be forced to fix it, but since Under Powered cards don't effect the meta, they don't need to change them ever.

Quote from G4merGuy09 »

I don't think Paladin is a bad class by any stretch of the Imagination, but I just hate how many dead cards he has. It makes Paladin pretty boring to play since you are forced to have every staple card to be remotely effective. Imagine playing Paladin without truesilver or consecrate and equality? That is just a death sentence. Unlike Druid who just has a bunch of good cards and is effective even if you don't have force of nature/savage roar combo. 

I wish that Blizzard would just give the Paladin some more interesting options like with Light's Justice or his bad secrets that no one uses. I really hate their new philosophy of "Only New Cards, no balance changes" that they set up. Sure, if something became to overpowered they would be forced to fix it, but since Under Powered cards don't effect the meta, they don't need to change them ever.

I agree on your point about dead cards, Paladins do have the most of them of any class. When compared to Druid, Paladin has less versatility and flexibility. With that being said, I reckon that Paladins are decent enough to be a middle of the pack class, and if they were to receive greater boosts to their cards, it can truly propel them to the top classes.

Quote from G4merGuy09 »

Why does no one use them?

I've played a lot of Paladin to know where he stands in the current Meta. Recently people are using a "Shockadin" deck, which involve heavy aggro. Some of us Paladins do not like this playstyle and prefer to be a more Mid-Range or more Control like playstyle. The reason why that playstyle is dying is because there are so many Paladin cards that are underpowered. Let's go through all of them and see why each one is underpowered and what change we could make to them.

Light's Justice

The Light's Justice is probably one of the worst weapons in the game. The fact that most early drops are 2 health means that you just take way more damage than you should. I think there would be an easy way to fix this and make it a viable card. "2 Mana, Immunity while Attacking." I think this card would see a lot more play as it allows you to trade with enemies and take no extra damage, it is kinda like a Fireball for the Paladin which he desperately needs. 

Humility

Humility is by far the worst Paladin card I see no one ever use. This is because the Aldor Peacekeeper is such a better card that also puts a 3/3 on the field. I think the best way to fix it is to make Humility, "2 Mana, Reduce a Minion's Health to 1 and Draw a Card." Now it gives the Paladin some early card-draw that he needs to help get him started. It would also stop early aggro and giants decks, so I would put it in my deck.

The Secrets

The Paladin Secrets are by far the worst secrets in the game. Especially now that you cannot activate secrets on your turn. Noble Sacrifice is the only good secret, however it defeats the point of a Secret when it is the only good one. Let's go over each of the other secrets and discuss why they are so bad.

EDIT: I took out Redemption because it really doesn't need a change. The Naxxramas update will be a lot of combo possibilities, so I think it should stay as it is.

Eye for an Eye

Eye for an Eye is just a bad card because it doesn't change a thing. The opponent usually attacks with their smallest minion anyway because of Noble Sacrifice, so you will probably only deal 1 to 3 damage to the enemy at most. The idea of the card itself is weak, so it would be dumb to say "The enemy takes double damage" or something along those lines. I think a better route would be to make it so "When your hero takes damage, deal that damage plus 5 more to the character that attacked you." Now it deals 5 extra damage and can kill minions that attack you. Also it can be effected by Spell Damage.

Repentance

Repentance is a very bad card because the enemy can just put out their weakest minion and it means little to nothing except a waste of your card. I think a way more interesting card would be "When the enemy plays a minion, silence it and then lower its health to 1." This combined with my idea for the Light's Justice would make this a 3 Mana Assassinate for 2 cards. However the enemy decides what minion could have that happen to. 

Hammer of Wrath

HoW isn't a bad card, however it suffers from the problem that Paladin has way to many viable 4 mana cards. Consecration, Truesilver Champion, and this card of course. Because of this, you usually have 6 or more 4 mana cards in your deck. So I propose this change, "3 Mana, Deal 3 Damage and Draw a Card." Making it one less Mana would be perfect and would not be overpowered. 3 Mana for 3 Damage plus a card draw is fair. 

Blessed Champion

Blessed Champion is such a bad card that's value is way to little for how much Mana it costs. I think a more interesting change would be to change how it works, "5 Mana, Double the Attack and Health of a Minion." Now you can do a Blessed-Leeroy combo for 9 Mana that is pretty good. It would be decent for both Aggro and Control decks.

Holy Wrath

Holy Wrath is a bad card because it costs to much and relies on the RNG way to much. I do like the RNG aspect, but I think it should be a bit more focused. My suggestion would be to change it to, "Draw a card between 5 and 12 Mana and deal damage equal to its cost." Now you will always know you will deal at least 5 Damage. However you can no longer deal 20 damage. However you deal 12 damage if you have Mountain Giants.

Guardian of Kings

Guardian of Kings is not a bad card for any stretch of the imagination. It allows you to get a huge health lead on your opponent and get a pretty strong body out. However, when compared to something like Fire Elemental, it falls pretty short when it comes to value. My propose change would be, "6 Mana, 5/6, Restore 5 Health." It now costs less and can heal minions, but it heals for less now.

 Bonus Card: Sha'tar Crusader

The Sha'tar Crusader is a card I came up with. It is the card that is needed for early game. It stalls the opponent, but it isn't overpowered at all. It is a reliable turn 1 play that is good for almost any situation. It protects your early minions, and it is actually pretty good to play an Argent Protector on Turn 2 with this. 

Where would the Paladin stand after these changes?

I believe that we would see a lot of variety of decks for Paladin. Some may go a weapons route with the Light's Justice change. Some might use the new secrets in aggro decks. Holy Wrath and Hammer of Wrath will give some more reliable card draw to the Paladin which he desperately needs. Blessed Champion may be used in some high stat minion play, like with Boulder Fist Ogres. Humility will make Paladins a hard counter to Handlocks like they should be. And Guardian of Kings will be able to get much more value. I don't think that this would make Paladin an overpowered class, but maybe in the top 4 viable classes to play now.

Loved the new card pal, actually it would fix our problem in early game, keep up de good work!

I really wish Blizzard would do something for Paladin Class. I take look at top players's deck, and I rarely seen any of them pick Paladin as their tournament deck because... you probably already knew the reason... (►.◄)

They should work a little bit more in the balance of the game... I mean, Paladin has been one of the weakest class for enough time, and Naxx Cards are not going to help!

Quote from Myteq »

Every class has at least one cheap, good removal, except.... Paladin. I think, He really stands away because of this...

Druid-Wrath, Claw+shenanigans with Innervate

Hunter-Kill Command, Arcane Shot, also Deadly Shot, Explosive Trap, Snipe 

Mage-  Frostbolt, Fireblast, also Arcane Explosion, Arcane Missiles

Priest-Shadow Word: Death, Holy Smite, Shadow Word: Pain

Rogue-Like 10 cards

Shaman-Rockbiter Weapon, Earth Shock, Lightning Bolt, also Lava Burst, Lightning Storm, Forked Lightning, Frost Shock, Hex 

Warlock-Soulfire, Demonfire, Shadow Bolt, also Drain Life,  Mortal Coil, Corruption 

Warrior- Fiery War Axe, Slam, Heroic Strike, also Whirlwind, Shield Slam, Cleave,  Inner Rage

What does Paladin have for under 4 mana?

Light's Justice, Hand of Protection, Blessing of Might, Holy Light, Humility, Repentance, Noble Sacrifice, Eye for an Eye, Blessing of Wisdom, Argent Protector, Equality, Divine Favor, Aldor Peacekeeper, Sword of Justice

Where is Palas pay 2 mana, deal 3 damage card, or something in this line? :(

Here is a card I came up with.

Holy Shock

Quote from Myteq »

Holy Shock would probably work, maybe the buff effect is a little bit too weak.

I think it is perfect. If the buff was +2/+2 I would think it would be overpowered. Since it has versatility.

Quote from Myteq »

Other options that would fit imo this card secondary effect would be(Im not saying  +1/+2 is bad); heal target for 4/5 or give all friendly minions +1/+2 attack(maybe even for 1 turn(Where is Palas Bloodlust?).

Paladin's - in lore and in WoW - weren't focused on group buffs, more defensive group stuff and debuffs. Their strengths were single target heal and sustain - they have it. The archetype is fine. My take on it at least..