Yeah, it is a compounding of issues in one deck with infinite face damage being the cherry on top.
Other examples of infinite damage cards, never do so directly AND had have counterplays ... example Jade Golem, sure summon a 30/30 golem, but the opponent has 1 turn to react ... also, negate the infinite value by playing Geist.
Here there is no counter (in standard) ... no matter what you do there's infinite damage incoming ... so your only option is to try and go faster than the mage.
I personally feel that the DRAW is the culprit behind it all, especially draw that refreshes your mana or draw that you get for basically just playing cards (the quest reward for pt 1 ... why draw? really? Just give the next spell +1 spell damage ... part 2 (discover, ugh) should be the next spell with +2 spell damage to roll into the main reward of +3 continuously).
The cost reduction is irritating, but at least you can kinda tech against it ... but draw, not so much ... even Shenanigans turns the card into a Banana (a spell) so the mage still gets the mana back if drawn through refreshing spring water! ... I mean, sheesh, an Angry Chicken would be a better effect. :)
And so there's a polarising meta where most of the cards in standard are useless because they are too slow ... if you go to HS Replay there's hardly any card above 3 mana in the "in most decks category", which is kinda nuts when in the past cards like Zilliax were in most decks (really well designed, fair card).
Maybe a nerf could be that it increases in price? As in „Add another Ignite to your deck that deals one more damage and costs one more. Or make it cost at least 4 mana to begin with. This card is so many good things at the same time.
Remember Jade Druid who couldn‘t fatigue? There was a direct counter in Skulking Geist. There is no way to get rid of Ignite once it has started. Maybe with milling or a lucky Tickatus. But there is no viable strategy to deal with it. When used in Quest Mage it is both quite aggressive but also a long term play. Most other strategies / cards force you to choose, either aggressive or invest in long game. Even if you were to nerf 2-3 of the card drawing mechanics of Mage, it would still be overpowered.
I get that for some people this will seem like a heated discussion, but I am convinced that I look at the issue rationally and not emotionally and see a big problem regardless. Obviously there is a small window between a Mage building up its Quest and/or card drawing shenanigans where you can overwhelm them with a combo or a full board, but it‘s a very small window.
Maybe a nerf could be that it increases in price? As in „Add another Ignite to your deck that deals one more damage and costs one more. Or make it cost at least 4 mana to begin with. This card is so many good things at the same time.
Remember Jade Druid who couldn‘t fatigue? There was a direct counter in Skulking Geist. There is no way to get rid of Ignite once it has started. Maybe with milling or a lucky Tickatus. But there is no viable strategy to deal with it. When used in Quest Mage it is both quite aggressive but also a long term play. Most other strategies / cards force you to choose, either aggressive or invest in long game. Even if you were to nerf 2-3 of the card drawing mechanics of Mage, it would still be overpowered.
I get that for some people this will seem like a heated discussion, but I am convinced that I look at the issue rationally and not emotionally and see a big problem regardless. Obviously there is a small window between a Mage building up its Quest and/or card drawing shenanigans where you can overwhelm them with a combo or a full board, but it‘s a very small window.
Jade Idol scaled way faster and cost half as much mana. Ignite's strength is mostly that it's cheap and synergizes well with spell damage, not that it's infinite.
If you look at how well quest druid manages to out tank quest mage and kill them after turn 10 I wouldn't say that this card is that problematic for now. I'm more skeptical towards the insane draw that many classes have, together with the insane tempo plays DH and warlock have. With that being said. Control decks need opponents to outplay like brute DH and shadow priest, while warlock should arguably not have both a massive flesh giant tempo and infinite damage.
It is just insane how little thinking goes into playing that class, and somehow the only thing that got nerfed was the warlock giant.
I just played a game in which the mage had the quest, stole Cornelius Roame from me and was to busy clearing my board while overdrawing until he had 10 mana.
Could have killed me 3 turns earlier but thinking is just not something that can be done while playing mage nowadays I guess...
Easy meta breaker. Mage and Warlocks' greatest weakness to their questlines, is conceding. It's the only way.
Honestly though, I just concede against them. No fun in playing against a deck that isn't willing to play against me. Been waaay happier, and they are more spread in the meta, so at least 3 out of 4 games, are not them. I can still climb, and not be bothered to play against a noninteractive deck.
Easy meta breaker. Mage and Warlocks' greatest weakness to their questlines, is conceding. It's the only way.
Honestly though, I just concede against them. No fun in playing against a deck that isn't willing to play against me. Been waaay happier, and they are more spread in the meta, so at least 3 out of 4 games, are not them. I can still climb, and not be bothered to play against a noninteractive deck.
That's pretty much the correct approach if you are using a deck with less than a 40% win rate against them. It's exactly what aggro decks used to do against control back in the olden days.
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Easy meta breaker. Mage and Warlocks' greatest weakness to their questlines, is conceding. It's the only way.
Honestly though, I just concede against them. No fun in playing against a deck that isn't willing to play against me. Been waaay happier, and they are more spread in the meta, so at least 3 out of 4 games, are not them. I can still climb, and not be bothered to play against a noninteractive deck.
That's pretty much the correct approach if you are using a deck with less than a 40% win rate against them. It's exactly what aggro decks used to do against control back in the olden days.
Gotta love assumptions... I don't even care to win against them. I just don't want to play against them. I never said anything about beating them? Also, using decks with a >54% winrate, and the occasional toxic rogue if I'm feeling kind of funny.
Easy meta breaker. Mage and Warlocks' greatest weakness to their questlines, is conceding. It's the only way.
Honestly though, I just concede against them. No fun in playing against a deck that isn't willing to play against me. Been waaay happier, and they are more spread in the meta, so at least 3 out of 4 games, are not them. I can still climb, and not be bothered to play against a noninteractive deck.
That's pretty much the correct approach if you are using a deck with less than a 40% win rate against them. It's exactly what aggro decks used to do against control back in the olden days.
Gotta love assumptions... I don't even care to win against them. I just don't want to play against them. I never said anything about beating them? Also, using decks with a >54% winrate, and the occasional toxic rogue if I'm feeling kind of funny.
I don't think he was insulting your deck in particular. He was saying that if the deck you are using doesn't fair well against Mage and Warlock(40%) then conceding is the correct option anyway.
If my deck smashes Warlock and Mage, of course I LOVE queueing into them.
I don't think he was insulting your deck in particular. He was saying that if the deck you are using doesn't fair well against Mage and Warlock(40%) then conceding is the correct option anyway.
If my deck smashes Warlock and Mage, of course I LOVE queueing into them.
That's exactly what I was saying. I did find the ironic "assumptions" jab pretty hilarious, though.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
I think what's important in hearthstone is that the normal rules keep going. Otherwise i call it cheating. When you're time is done and the cord is burned at the end you're tour is over and the opponent takes over. I had a dozen encounters with ignite even at full healt and domination on the board; you loose because the end game took more than 7 minutes. The mage cleared the board at ease and then killed my lock. I honestly think that if you allow to go over normal barriers this game is just game over.
ignite is not an issue, its the fact that quest mage only goes fast to spam it because of the massive amount of cheap spells.
Ignite is the issue 100%.
Spell mage’s largest drawback was its massive draw lead to early fatigue, combined with the fact that some decks like priest and warrior could tank the damage.
Ignite COMPLETELY nullifies this weakness. Not only does it completely remove their ability to ever fatigue, but they also have infinite damage because of it.
It’s beyond oppressive.
Quite simply, your perspective is not based in this reality. You are imagining an alternate timeline.
If I go to actual statistics for top 1000 Legend games right now, the drawn winrate for Ignite puts it at 15th place. Since a deck has 15 pairs of cards unless it's running singletons like Legendaries, that means that Ignite is just barely good enough for deck inclusion.
We can further see you're in an alternate reality due to your preoccupation with (what would otherwise be) the Mage running into fatigue. This is a fast format and it is exceptionally rare for Spell Mage to actually draw all but a card or two of their deck. This implies that your bias is towards a deck that is far, far too slow to be relevant in this format, even if hypothetically Spell Mage was to be nuked from orbit.
The best cards in Spell Mage are Incanter's Flow (even after the nerf) and Refreshing Spring Water. We know this because of statistics taken from actual games: when Mages draw those cards, they win more often.
Don't forget that Blizzard wanted to remove charge from the game, and spells do basically have charge but they are just damage per ONE use. Minions stayed on the board. But with Ignite it is infinite! and not to say damage/mana cost ratio is in favour of spells rather than charge minions.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Minion to minion the basic of all combats, only a fool trusts his win to an OTK"
I think ignite may be an issue in it's design (insofar as it's infinite damage and no fatigue), however I think the main issue is the excessive cheap draw and that pesky + 3 spell damage they have to work soo hard to get... (/s). The combination with Cram Session and to a lesser extent Refreshing Spring Water is what really seals the game.
Even though I had a whole post about mana reduction, I don't actually think that's the main issue here either, as the shuffled ignites presumably return to full cost (even if the rest of the deck is discounted). Mana reduction does facilitate the draw though.
I think in a different release cycle ignite wouldn't see play as it's objectively quite slow. It's a bit like jade idol back in the day - infinite damage but only really ruins heavy control decks with no win condition. If you were to consider a nerf arguably it could start at 1 damage, but in all honesty I don't think it really needs a change, and I say this as a control played who has negatively posted multiple times about the current state of the game.
p.s. *off-topic* tell me again why renew and apotheosis got nerfed???
Yeah, it is a compounding of issues in one deck with infinite face damage being the cherry on top.
Other examples of infinite damage cards, never do so directly AND had have counterplays ... example Jade Golem, sure summon a 30/30 golem, but the opponent has 1 turn to react ... also, negate the infinite value by playing Geist.
Here there is no counter (in standard) ... no matter what you do there's infinite damage incoming ... so your only option is to try and go faster than the mage.
I personally feel that the DRAW is the culprit behind it all, especially draw that refreshes your mana or draw that you get for basically just playing cards (the quest reward for pt 1 ... why draw? really? Just give the next spell +1 spell damage ... part 2 (discover, ugh) should be the next spell with +2 spell damage to roll into the main reward of +3 continuously).
The cost reduction is irritating, but at least you can kinda tech against it ... but draw, not so much ... even Shenanigans turns the card into a Banana (a spell) so the mage still gets the mana back if drawn through refreshing spring water! ... I mean, sheesh, an Angry Chicken would be a better effect. :)
And so there's a polarising meta where most of the cards in standard are useless because they are too slow ... if you go to HS Replay there's hardly any card above 3 mana in the "in most decks category", which is kinda nuts when in the past cards like Zilliax were in most decks (really well designed, fair card).
Ah well ...
Quest druid beats mage
Off topic, but they gotta get this card outta duels. It's twice as broken when you only have 16 cards.
I agree, Ignite is a problem.
Maybe a nerf could be that it increases in price? As in „Add another Ignite to your deck that deals one more damage and costs one more. Or make it cost at least 4 mana to begin with. This card is so many good things at the same time.
Remember Jade Druid who couldn‘t fatigue? There was a direct counter in Skulking Geist. There is no way to get rid of Ignite once it has started. Maybe with milling or a lucky Tickatus. But there is no viable strategy to deal with it. When used in Quest Mage it is both quite aggressive but also a long term play. Most other strategies / cards force you to choose, either aggressive or invest in long game. Even if you were to nerf 2-3 of the card drawing mechanics of Mage, it would still be overpowered.
I get that for some people this will seem like a heated discussion, but I am convinced that I look at the issue rationally and not emotionally and see a big problem regardless. Obviously there is a small window between a Mage building up its Quest and/or card drawing shenanigans where you can overwhelm them with a combo or a full board, but it‘s a very small window.
The meta has problems, but the win condition of a Tier 3 deck is not one of them.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Jade Idol scaled way faster and cost half as much mana. Ignite's strength is mostly that it's cheap and synergizes well with spell damage, not that it's infinite.
If you look at how well quest druid manages to out tank quest mage and kill them after turn 10 I wouldn't say that this card is that problematic for now. I'm more skeptical towards the insane draw that many classes have, together with the insane tempo plays DH and warlock have. With that being said. Control decks need opponents to outplay like brute DH and shadow priest, while warlock should arguably not have both a massive flesh giant tempo and infinite damage.
It is just insane how little thinking goes into playing that class, and somehow the only thing that got nerfed was the warlock giant.
I just played a game in which the mage had the quest, stole Cornelius Roame from me and was to busy clearing my board while overdrawing until he had 10 mana.
Could have killed me 3 turns earlier but thinking is just not something that can be done while playing mage nowadays I guess...
Sad to see tbh
Easy meta breaker. Mage and Warlocks' greatest weakness to their questlines, is conceding. It's the only way.
Honestly though, I just concede against them. No fun in playing against a deck that isn't willing to play against me. Been waaay happier, and they are more spread in the meta, so at least 3 out of 4 games, are not them. I can still climb, and not be bothered to play against a noninteractive deck.
That's pretty much the correct approach if you are using a deck with less than a 40% win rate against them. It's exactly what aggro decks used to do against control back in the olden days.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Gotta love assumptions... I don't even care to win against them. I just don't want to play against them. I never said anything about beating them? Also, using decks with a >54% winrate, and the occasional toxic rogue if I'm feeling kind of funny.
I don't think he was insulting your deck in particular. He was saying that if the deck you are using doesn't fair well against Mage and Warlock(40%) then conceding is the correct option anyway.
If my deck smashes Warlock and Mage, of course I LOVE queueing into them.
That's exactly what I was saying. I did find the ironic "assumptions" jab pretty hilarious, though.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
I think what's important in hearthstone is that the normal rules keep going. Otherwise i call it cheating. When you're time is done and the cord is burned at the end you're tour is over and the opponent takes over. I had a dozen encounters with ignite even at full healt and domination on the board; you loose because the end game took more than 7 minutes. The mage cleared the board at ease and then killed my lock. I honestly think that if you allow to go over normal barriers this game is just game over.
Quite simply, your perspective is not based in this reality. You are imagining an alternate timeline.
If I go to actual statistics for top 1000 Legend games right now, the drawn winrate for Ignite puts it at 15th place. Since a deck has 15 pairs of cards unless it's running singletons like Legendaries, that means that Ignite is just barely good enough for deck inclusion.
We can further see you're in an alternate reality due to your preoccupation with (what would otherwise be) the Mage running into fatigue. This is a fast format and it is exceptionally rare for Spell Mage to actually draw all but a card or two of their deck. This implies that your bias is towards a deck that is far, far too slow to be relevant in this format, even if hypothetically Spell Mage was to be nuked from orbit.
The best cards in Spell Mage are Incanter's Flow (even after the nerf) and Refreshing Spring Water. We know this because of statistics taken from actual games: when Mages draw those cards, they win more often.
Salt thread is the place for this
Don't forget that Blizzard wanted to remove charge from the game, and spells do basically have charge but they are just damage per ONE use. Minions stayed on the board. But with Ignite it is infinite! and not to say damage/mana cost ratio is in favour of spells rather than charge minions.
"Minion to minion the basic of all combats, only a fool trusts his win to an OTK"
I think ignite may be an issue in it's design (insofar as it's infinite damage and no fatigue), however I think the main issue is the excessive cheap draw and that pesky + 3 spell damage they have to work soo hard to get... (/s). The combination with Cram Session and to a lesser extent Refreshing Spring Water is what really seals the game.
Even though I had a whole post about mana reduction, I don't actually think that's the main issue here either, as the shuffled ignites presumably return to full cost (even if the rest of the deck is discounted). Mana reduction does facilitate the draw though.
I think in a different release cycle ignite wouldn't see play as it's objectively quite slow. It's a bit like jade idol back in the day - infinite damage but only really ruins heavy control decks with no win condition. If you were to consider a nerf arguably it could start at 1 damage, but in all honesty I don't think it really needs a change, and I say this as a control played who has negatively posted multiple times about the current state of the game.
p.s. *off-topic* tell me again why renew and apotheosis got nerfed???
The last expansion was a disaster in so many ways like never any expansion before, i’m playing since beta and spent 2840 bucks on HS
Ignite is just one of many bad design decision team 5 made.
i lost all my faith in team 5 - the recent nerfs for example, jesus, there is so much incompetence and ignorance @ Blizzard right now
Bring back coldlight oracle and brann please. No more questy magey
such salt much BM.