Why is card draw so strong? Because of power creep. If other cards get better, you will draw better cards. If combos get stronger, you will assemble them more consistantly. Blizzard will have a very hard time releasing new, cool strong cards for DH without breaking the game. The alternative if other cards are nerfed would be to do like zoo has in the past: fill out the deck with neutrals and let the carddraw win the game.
Especially during the early UTH/Buzzard hunter era, it was obvious that a fast deck which can throw away their hand and easily refill it is very problematic. Skillful tempo and aggro play should be making the most out of limited resources imo.
Blizzard has painted itself into a corner with the DH design.
Hs was I think in a bad spot. Blizzard needed more players in this game, push the old one to comeback. DH was the solution, you dont need to have old expansions/adventures cards to be competitive. Dh is on purpose so strong: it let you play fast and win more game, people like it. They can nerf most of the dh cards without need to give dust back, so they will nerf someone, sure.
If they're gonna nerf DH, they'll do it next expansion. Like it was said, DH is good for new players but also for returning players. Yes, it does create a boring experience but hey if you want to make an omelette, you gotta break a few eggs.
Of course it's inevitable. I just had a DH take me down to 14hp by turn 3. I then gained about 40 armour the following couple of turns and removing every threat from the board every turn and I was dead on turn 9. It starts off as an aggro deck which never stops with its card draw that never runs out. It's completely broken. He didn't even have priestess (I don't think he runs it since it's too slow/6 damage isn't enough). People who say DH is fine might be running into bad lists or bad players. I have seen awful DH players who achieve nothing with the deck.
Finally a nerf thread that is not only motivated by rage of losing.
Thanks Slyde.
In addition, your point is very good. DH is the only class where aggro decks do not run out of steam so even if you can stop their initial aggro without taking too much damage, they'll come back at you quite easily and you're the one to run out of steam. The reason for that is the card draw cards (and their number) they've been offered. Remember Divine Favor and why it's been HoFed? Here it's not one card it's an avalanche...
Of course it's inevitable. I just had a DH take me down to 14hp by turn 3. I then gained about 40 armour the following couple of turns and removing every threat from the board every turn and I was dead on turn 9. It starts off as an aggro deck which never stops with its card draw that never runs out. It's completely broken. He didn't even have priestess (I don't think he runs it since it's too slow/6 damage isn't enough). People who say DH is fine might be running into bad lists or bad players. I have seen awful DH players who achieve nothing with the deck.
Que up any list of DH you like and play against egg warrior or priest and tell me how often you win.
People always counter argue this kind of statement with something along the lines of: “those decks only exist because of the prelevance of DH and something needs to keep them in check.”
What I want to ask these people is to tell me a time in recent history where this exact same scenario hasn’t existed? When is the last time the meta hasn’t been either play the best deck, or decks that beat the best deck?
You realize if DH gets so nerfed that it’s unplayable that something will take its place. And then what does the meta look like? The new best deck and decks that counter it.
People seem to have this odd notion that hearthstone hasn’t been this way most of its lifetime. There are always going to be a best assortment of 30 cards. Then there will be niche decks that beat that assortment at the expense of losing to other things.
Nerfing demon hunter until it no longer makes you cry won’t make you feel any better, because the only thing that will change is what you’re complaining about. It will never stop as long as you have that mentality.
Finally a nerf thread that is not only motivated by rage of losing.
Thanks Slyde.
In addition, your point is very good. DH is the only class where aggro decks do not run out of steam so even if you can stop their initial aggro without taking too much damage, they'll come back at you quite easily and you're the one to run out of steam. The reason for that is the card draw cards (and their number) they've been offered. Remember Divine Favor and why it's been HoFed? Here it's not one card it's an avalanche...
Every other card in DH draws at least 1 card. When an opponent can go t6 from empty hand to potentially drawing 7+ cards and put tempo on the board, Houston there's a problem.
Finally a nerf thread that is not only motivated by rage of losing.
Thanks Slyde.
In addition, your point is very good. DH is the only class where aggro decks do not run out of steam so even if you can stop their initial aggro without taking too much damage, they'll come back at you quite easily and you're the one to run out of steam. The reason for that is the card draw cards (and their number) they've been offered. Remember Divine Favor and why it's been HoFed? Here it's not one card it's an avalanche...
Every other card in DH draws at least 1 card. When an opponent can go t6 from empty hand to potentially drawing 7+ cards and put tempo on the board, Houston there's a problem.
Careful being reasonable and logical round these parts.
I don't mind their draw outside of the skull. That card is oppressive though.
And I'm not sure how Priest counters them. I've played a ton of Priest lately and I'm not having a great deal of success. What are these Priest decks that are owning DH?
Of course it's inevitable. I just had a DH take me down to 14hp by turn 3. I then gained about 40 armour the following couple of turns and removing every threat from the board every turn and I was dead on turn 9. It starts off as an aggro deck which never stops with its card draw that never runs out. It's completely broken. He didn't even have priestess (I don't think he runs it since it's too slow/6 damage isn't enough). People who say DH is fine might be running into bad lists or bad players. I have seen awful DH players who achieve nothing with the deck.
Que up any list of DH you like and play against egg warrior or priest and tell me how often you win.
People always counter argue this kind of statement with something along the lines of: “those decks only exist because of the prelevance of DH and something needs to keep them in check.”
What I want to ask these people is to tell me a time in recent history where this exact same scenario hasn’t existed? When is the last time the meta hasn’t been either play the best deck, or decks that beat the best deck?
You realize if DH gets so nerfed that it’s unplayable that something will take its place. And then what does the meta look like? The new best deck and decks that counter it.
People seem to have this odd notion that hearthstone hasn’t been this way most of its lifetime. There are always going to be a best assortment of 30 cards. Then there will be niche decks that beat that assortment at the expense of losing to other things.
Nerfing demon hunter until it no longer makes you cry won’t make you feel any better, because the only thing that will change is what you’re complaining about. It will never stop as long as you have that mentality.
You need a deck that has a hard counter. Egg warrior, the only thing that could be considered a real counter isn't a true hard counter. It barely holds on. Egg warrior does pretty decently going first but you need to draw skipper and armorsmith in most situations (unless you get some god aggro draw and kill him). If you don't draw armorsmith you probably won't be winning because DH does obscene amounts of face damage (altruistic hitting face is criminal given they nerfed miracle rogue to the ground, my favourite deck).
I don't mind their draw outside of the skull. That card is oppressive though.
And I'm not sure how Priest counters them. I've played a ton of Priest lately and I'm not having a great deal of success. What are these Priest decks that are owning DH?
Res Priest owns any DH, that is except if the DH is like me and adds taunt removal like Maiev Shadowsong, which along with Kayn Sunfury really moves the edge more towards our horned friend. Still about 50/50 in my book.
Then if Res Priest isn't the perfect answer, then which matchup is actually BAD for DH ?
Short answer, Galakrond Secret CHEAT Rogue
This deck is so disturbingly broken, that you are not even able to dictate the course of the game, and actually get put into the reactive role, once our friend Heistbaron Togwaggle is out, which means as a DH you'll just lose, especially as you can't deal with 0 mana upper medium sized boards. (even Chaos Nova is slightly out of reach)
Not only that, but a Turn 2 Shadowjeweler Hanar CAN'T be removed, as a 2 Mana 1-5 is grossly overstated, so ... instant QQ I guess.
I got back from Bronze 10 to Diamond 5 in a matter of 5 hours, the vast majority of my only losses in between ? Guess who.
Honestly if they made "Outcast" work on left side cards only, that will help so they can't chain outcast cards on the right side they just drew.
The main reason they draw so much is the outcast cards they draw can instantly be used again in outcast mode forming the chain and turns that go on forever.
This wouldn't really kill any of the cards they have now.
Honestly if they made "Outcast" work on left side cards only, that will help so they can't chain outcast cards on the right side they just drew.
The main reason they draw so much is the outcast cards they draw can instantly be used again in outcast mode forming the chain and turns that go on forever.
This wouldn't really kill any of the cards they have now.
It doesn’t kill, but greatly hurts the possibility of heavier, slower DH decks ever becoming viable. Sure, fast low-curve DH may be the only way it’s being played now, but making this change nearly ensures it is the only way it will ever be played.
I don't mind any of those cards. DH is very easily beaten once you control the board. If opponent uses those cheap cards above, almost guaranteed win for any of my highlander decks..
Nerf won't do anything. There were 2 already and nothing changed. This class would have to be completely revamped. How you want to nerf felscreamer into priestess into warglaives with twin slice backup?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
And it is not even really about the current powerlevel of the class, which is high but not opressive imo. It is about design space for the future:
What do these cards have in common:
Novice Engineer, Nat Pagle, Ancient of Lore, Starving Buzzard, Gadgetzan Auctioneer, Azure Drake, Nourish, Wild Growth, Raiding Party, Preparation (indirect), (edit:) Divine Favor, Power Word: Shield, Northshire Cleric, (end edit) Acolyte of Pain, Ancharrr and eventually Skull of Gul'dan?
They are all card draw related, and have been nerfed or HoFed. Demon Hunter has Crimson Sigil Runner, Consume Magic, Spectral Sight, Feast of Souls and Skull of Gul'dan (still very strong) with this ultra powerful mechanic.
Why is card draw so strong? Because of power creep. If other cards get better, you will draw better cards. If combos get stronger, you will assemble them more consistantly. Blizzard will have a very hard time releasing new, cool strong cards for DH without breaking the game. The alternative if other cards are nerfed would be to do like zoo has in the past: fill out the deck with neutrals and let the carddraw win the game.
Especially during the early UTH/Buzzard hunter era, it was obvious that a fast deck which can throw away their hand and easily refill it is very problematic. Skillful tempo and aggro play should be making the most out of limited resources imo.
Blizzard has painted itself into a corner with the DH design.
Don't push that "disenchant" button!
Edit: added even more cards to the list.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
I agree.
blizzard is known for polish but let's face it we all know these guys aren't really known for balance that's my 2 cents
Hs was I think in a bad spot. Blizzard needed more players in this game, push the old one to comeback.
DH was the solution, you dont need to have old expansions/adventures cards to be competitive. Dh is on purpose so strong: it let you play fast and win more game, people like it. They can nerf most of the dh cards without need to give dust back, so they will nerf someone, sure.
If they're gonna nerf DH, they'll do it next expansion. Like it was said, DH is good for new players but also for returning players. Yes, it does create a boring experience but hey if you want to make an omelette, you gotta break a few eggs.
Of course it's inevitable. I just had a DH take me down to 14hp by turn 3. I then gained about 40 armour the following couple of turns and removing every threat from the board every turn and I was dead on turn 9. It starts off as an aggro deck which never stops with its card draw that never runs out. It's completely broken. He didn't even have priestess (I don't think he runs it since it's too slow/6 damage isn't enough). People who say DH is fine might be running into bad lists or bad players. I have seen awful DH players who achieve nothing with the deck.
So this question pops up in my mind:
Is it safe to Disenchant Extra Cards from Ashes of Outland now? At least for 9 old classes I mean...
EU 11/2015+ , f2p 03/2021+: DK 63 / DH 205 /Dr 277 / Hu 733 / Ma 6666 / Pa 1072 / Pr 1165 / Ro 1791 / Sh 1303 / Wl 707 / Wr 664
Finally a nerf thread that is not only motivated by rage of losing.
Thanks Slyde.
In addition, your point is very good. DH is the only class where aggro decks do not run out of steam so even if you can stop their initial aggro without taking too much damage, they'll come back at you quite easily and you're the one to run out of steam. The reason for that is the card draw cards (and their number) they've been offered. Remember Divine Favor and why it's been HoFed? Here it's not one card it's an avalanche...
Que up any list of DH you like and play against egg warrior or priest and tell me how often you win.
People always counter argue this kind of statement with something along the lines of: “those decks only exist because of the prelevance of DH and something needs to keep them in check.”
What I want to ask these people is to tell me a time in recent history where this exact same scenario hasn’t existed? When is the last time the meta hasn’t been either play the best deck, or decks that beat the best deck?
You realize if DH gets so nerfed that it’s unplayable that something will take its place. And then what does the meta look like? The new best deck and decks that counter it.
People seem to have this odd notion that hearthstone hasn’t been this way most of its lifetime. There are always going to be a best assortment of 30 cards. Then there will be niche decks that beat that assortment at the expense of losing to other things.
Nerfing demon hunter until it no longer makes you cry won’t make you feel any better, because the only thing that will change is what you’re complaining about. It will never stop as long as you have that mentality.
Every other card in DH draws at least 1 card. When an opponent can go t6 from empty hand to potentially drawing 7+ cards and put tempo on the board, Houston there's a problem.
Careful being reasonable and logical round these parts.
I don't mind their draw outside of the skull. That card is oppressive though.
And I'm not sure how Priest counters them. I've played a ton of Priest lately and I'm not having a great deal of success. What are these Priest decks that are owning DH?
Galavant Animation
You need a deck that has a hard counter. Egg warrior, the only thing that could be considered a real counter isn't a true hard counter. It barely holds on. Egg warrior does pretty decently going first but you need to draw skipper and armorsmith in most situations (unless you get some god aggro draw and kill him). If you don't draw armorsmith you probably won't be winning because DH does obscene amounts of face damage (altruistic hitting face is criminal given they nerfed miracle rogue to the ground, my favourite deck).
I think Zeddy covers it best here:
The Demon Hunter Effect
"Nerf Paper," said Rock.
Res Priest owns any DH, that is except if the DH is like me and adds taunt removal like Maiev Shadowsong, which along with Kayn Sunfury really moves the edge more towards our horned friend. Still about 50/50 in my book.
Then if Res Priest isn't the perfect answer, then which matchup is actually BAD for DH ?
Short answer, Galakrond Secret CHEAT Rogue
This deck is so disturbingly broken, that you are not even able to dictate the course of the game, and actually get put into the reactive role, once our friend Heistbaron Togwaggle is out, which means as a DH you'll just lose, especially as you can't deal with 0 mana upper medium sized boards. (even Chaos Nova is slightly out of reach)
Not only that, but a Turn 2 Shadowjeweler Hanar CAN'T be removed, as a 2 Mana 1-5 is grossly overstated, so ... instant QQ I guess.
I got back from Bronze 10 to Diamond 5 in a matter of 5 hours, the vast majority of my only losses in between ? Guess who.
Honestly if they made "Outcast" work on left side cards only, that will help so they can't chain outcast cards on the right side they just drew.
The main reason they draw so much is the outcast cards they draw can instantly be used again in outcast mode forming the chain and turns that go on forever.
This wouldn't really kill any of the cards they have now.
It doesn’t kill, but greatly hurts the possibility of heavier, slower DH decks ever becoming viable. Sure, fast low-curve DH may be the only way it’s being played now, but making this change nearly ensures it is the only way it will ever be played.
Pretty much says it all.
I don't mind any of those cards. DH is very easily beaten once you control the board. If opponent uses those cheap cards above, almost guaranteed win for any of my highlander decks..
Nerf won't do anything. There were 2 already and nothing changed. This class would have to be completely revamped. How you want to nerf felscreamer into priestess into warglaives with twin slice backup?