Let's compare: Arcane Intellect vs Raiding Party Arcane Intellect is arguably one of the best card draw in the game. yet it looks x trash compared with Raiding party.
Raiding Party tutors 2 specific cards and that already makes it a supeiror Arcane Intellect.
can also combo to draw 3 cards and again tutors a weapon.
even if this card was 5 mana i would still think it's too good
You cant call coin into prep into raiding party into evil a standard move. That happens maybe 1 time in 100 games.
I just lost to a mage with turn 3 Mountain Giant into turn 4 trade, coin khadgar into conjurers calling. That was way more oppressive then the rogue combo.
I agree that the pick or raiding party should get a nerf but calling nerfs for prep, backstab or edwin is just too much. These cards define the rogue class since the beginning and by nerfing them you would dig a grave for the whole rogue class.
Let’s see a list of possible rogue nerfs to test the waters include:
Preparation> change it to 1 mana.
Backstab > zap has 1 mana overload so change it to 1 mana or deal 1 damage
Raiding party > change it to 4 mana.
Sap> it’s a better execute, polymorph, shield slam without conditions, change to 4 mana.
Extra passive to hero power> Rogue always goes first, so they never get the coin.
SI agent > change it to 4 mana
Myra’s unstable element> let’s make it 7 mana, why not?
Evil miscreant > change it to 4 mana.
EdWin van cleef> make it 4 mana.
4 mana taunt pirate> change it to 5 mana
What else am I missing?
I thought about reading this thread seriously, but then I went back to the original post and I saw the absolute absurdity of the proposed nerfs. Nerfing Edwin VanCleef is the most infantile nerf I've ever seen suggested. Sure, on turn 3 Edwin can be an 8/8 with an investment of three additional, very specific cards. Meanwhile, mages can have an 8/8 mountain giant on turn 3 for one card. Edwin is insanely vulnerable to silence; no other big minion has that problem. Hmmm .....
Original poster is just a raging, salty, angry player, and these suggested nerfs are mostly so ridiculous that I cannot believe this thread has gotten this long. Pure insanity. The only reasonable nerf suggestions in this list are Raiding Party and Miscreant.
Side note: Backstab is conditional. Zap! is not. That's why Zap! has overload, while Backstab doesn't. This is REALLY basic game design here.
Let's compare: Arcane Intellect vs Raiding Party Arcane Intellect is arguably one of the best card draw in the game. yet it looks x trash compared with Raiding party.
Raiding Party tutors 2 specific cards and that already makes it a supeiror Arcane Intellect.
can also combo to draw 3 cards and again tutors a weapon.
even if this card was 5 mana i would still think it's too good
You had a good point until your last line. A 5-cost combo card is unplayable, no matter what effect it has. Just look at Kidnapper, if you even knew that card exists since NO ONE plays it.
Raiding party nerfed to 4 mana. Edwin should be +2/+1 for every card played and wagglepick should be one less damage. Voila, rogue is now less insane but still viable
Let's compare: Arcane Intellect vs Raiding Party Arcane Intellect is arguably one of the best card draw in the game. yet it looks x trash compared with Raiding party.
Raiding Party tutors 2 specific cards and that already makes it a supeiror Arcane Intellect.
can also combo to draw 3 cards and again tutors a weapon.
even if this card was 5 mana i would still think it's too good
You had a good point until your last line. A 5-cost combo card is unplayable, no matter what effect it has. Just look at Kidnapper, if you even knew that card exists since NO ONE plays it.
Excuse me. Vilespine Slayer, one of the best cards ever made, would like to have a word with you :P
Raiding party nerfed to 4 mana. Edwin should be +2/+1 for every card played and wagglepick should be one less damage. Voila, rogue is now less insane but still viable
Exactly what I'm thinking. These nerfs exactly. Nothing more or less. Raiding, Pick, EvC in order of importance.
I think the biggest offender is Preparation. I think they will nerf it to discount for less.. that way they can release better rogue spells in the future too.. Preparation has been a big design space constraint for far too long and we see how powerful it is with raiding party, which would be good but not insane card without prep making it free, I saw many games where people played PreparationRaiding Party into EVIL Miscreant, next turn waggle pick into 2 dread corsairs.. that combo is too consistent with prep.
I would say 3 rogue cards need to be nerfed:
EVIL Miscreant- to generate 1 lackey or to be a 1/3 the card is too durable and not worth to get rid of with 5 hp maianing it gets bounced way too often while surviving on board.. or make it so it generates less value/tempo with less lackeys.
Preparation- explained above, a big design space constraint, way too powerful with 3 mana spells.
Raiding Party- how this card even got past through the balance team?
Rogue is my 4th most played class(after hunter,paladin and warlock) so I am not really a rogue hater but the amount of stuff rogue has going for is absurd.
Wont be nerfed in my opinion:
Edwin VanCleef- if they nerf prep they won't nerf him, also the class identity of being a trickster class goes very well with him.. he is a big "all in" card when he is big.
Leeroy Jenkins - the card is used in various ways just like zilliax, yes it's always a finisher but it has some skill expression when the right play is to play him for tempo.
Waggle Pick- if raiding party is nerfed I think this card will be less insane since it doesn't curve as well
Let’s see a list of possible rogue nerfs to test the waters include:
Preparation> change it to 1 mana.
Backstab > zap has 1 mana overload so change it to 1 mana or deal 1 damage
Raiding party > change it to 4 mana.
Sap> it’s a better execute, polymorph, shield slam without conditions, change to 4 mana.
Extra passive to hero power> Rogue always goes first, so they never get the coin.
SI agent > change it to 4 mana
Myra’s unstable element> let’s make it 7 mana, why not?
Evil miscreant > change it to 4 mana.
EdWin van cleef> make it 4 mana.
4 mana taunt pirate> change it to 5 mana
What else am I missing?
I thought about reading this thread seriously, but then I went back to the original post and I saw the absolute absurdity of the proposed nerfs. Nerfing Edwin VanCleef is the most infantile nerf I've ever seen suggested. Sure, on turn 3 Edwin can be an 8/8 with an investment of three additional, very specific cards. Meanwhile, mages can have an 8/8 mountain giant on turn 3 for one card. Edwin is insanely vulnerable to silence; no other big minion has that problem. Hmmm .....
Original poster is just a raging, salty, angry player, and these suggested nerfs are mostly so ridiculous that I cannot believe this thread has gotten this long. Pure insanity. The only reasonable nerf suggestions in this list are Raiding Party and Miscreant.
Side note: Backstab is conditional. Zap! is not. That's why Zap! has overload, while Backstab doesn't. This is REALLY basic game design here.
even if this card was 5 mana i would still think it's too good
You had a good point until your last line. A 5-cost combo card is unplayable, no matter what effect it has. Just look at Kidnapper, if you even knew that card exists since NO ONE plays it.
Excuse me. Vilespine Slayer, one of the best cards ever made, would like to have a word with you :P
Ok, point taken. But as a 5-cost combo, Vilespine Slayer both removed an enemy unit and put a decent unit into play. Raiding Party does nothing at all to impact the board directly. It would be unplayable at 5-cost. It's pretty broken at 3-cost. The correct cost is 4.
Let's compare: Arcane Intellect vs Raiding Party Arcane Intellect is arguably one of the best card draw in the game. yet it looks x trash compared with Raiding party.
Raiding Party tutors 2 specific cards and that already makes it a supeiror Arcane Intellect.
can also combo to draw 3 cards and again tutors a weapon.
even if this card was 5 mana i would still think it's too good
You had a good point until your last line. A 5-cost combo card is unplayable, no matter what effect it has. Just look at Kidnapper, if you even knew that card exists since NO ONE plays it.
I probably exaggerated saying would still be good at 5 mana but still think it's playable.
tutoring 3 cards in one is just OPAF
About Kidnapper the card is bad because stats dsitribution.
Yes, it's excellent value. But a rogue deck using Raiding Party isn't really going for value or card advantage. It's going for face damage, mostly. "So, great job!" your opponent says. "You spent 5+ mana (or used up a Preparation), got a couple small pirates, and a good weapon. But now I'm gonna completely wreck your board and take over the game because your turn did absolutely nothing to advance the board state." --> This would be the story of Raiding Party at a 5-mana cost.
sap doesnt need mana cost nerf it needs more of recreation. same as vanish.
raiding party is a ok card (compare to hunters masters call)
preparation might be changed to gain 3 mana crystals this turn. next card that spends mana will use them all . this way you can play some other cards then just spells. but you cant carry over. this might help rise of new archetypes
I think the biggest offender is Preparation. I think they will nerf it to discount for less.. that way they can release better rogue spells in the future too.. Preparation has been a big design space constraint for far too long and we see how powerful it is with raiding party, which would be good but not insane card without prep making it free, I saw many games where people played PreparationRaiding Party into EVIL Miscreant, next turn waggle pick into 2 dread corsairs.. that combo is too consistent with prep.
I would say 3 rogue cards need to be nerfed:
EVIL Miscreant- to generate 1 lackey or to be a 1/3 the card is too durable and not worth to get rid of with 5 hp maianing it gets bounced way too often while surviving on board.. or make it so it generates less value/tempo with less lackeys.
Preparation- explained above, a big design space constraint, way too powerful with 3 mana spells.
Raiding Party- how this card even got past through the balance team?
Rogue is my 4th most played class(after hunter,paladin and warlock) so I am not really a rogue hater but the amount of stuff rogue has going for is absurd.
Wont be nerfed in my opinion:
Edwin VanCleef- if they nerf prep they won't nerf him, also the class identity of being a trickster class goes very well with him.. he is a big "all in" card when he is big.
Leeroy Jenkins - the card is used in various ways just like zilliax, yes it's always a finisher but it has some skill expression when the right play is to play him for tempo.
Waggle Pick- if raiding party is nerfed I think this card will be less insane since it doesn't curve as well
I agree with most of your statements except for Waggle Pick. This thing is a real problem. Because:
You can bounce Leeroy Jenkins for an insane amount of burst in one turn
Furthermore you can bounce all the powerful battlecry minions like lackys or EVIL Miscreant. I think Waggle Pick is what glues all these powerful cards you mentioned together to one powerhouse of a deck. My suggested nerve would be to reduce the attack by one and make it cost 5 instead of 4 mana. This reduces the combopotential with the corsairs, while also disrupting the curve of turn 3: Backstab, Raiding Party. turn 4: Waggle Pick.
no need to nerf Waggle Pick, rogues will use 3 2 dagger instead then. i think raiding party is very strong because of 100% tempo cards to play. example : mage draws 2 random cards, rogue 3 tempo cards. Prep is also very strong spell, so its needed to nerf to 1 mana or go to HoF
You cant call coin into prep into raiding party into evil a standard move. That happens maybe 1 time in 100 games.
I just lost to a mage with turn 3 Mountain Giant into turn 4 trade, coin khadgar into conjurers calling. That was way more oppressive then the rogue combo.
I agree that the pick or raiding party should get a nerf but calling nerfs for prep, backstab or edwin is just too much. These cards define the rogue class since the beginning and by nerfing them you would dig a grave for the whole rogue class.
You're off by a factor of 10. The math is complicated, but google is not. The odds of drawing any two card combo going second by turn 3 is 16%, which is about 1 our of 6 games. (source https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yFZ5Wn10QuBniLJH-sVp8ARVGeioWKwbB8qVJZyM3Wo/edit#gid=0). The odds of going second are 1 in 2. So that means a turn 3 coin-prep-raiding party-waggle pick>1 or 2 dread corsairs happens 1 out of every 12 games for Lackey rogue. Your chances of facing the combo (without or without coin) by turn 4 are nearly 1 in 5 games.
Let's compare: Arcane Intellect vs Raiding Party Arcane Intellect is arguably one of the best card draw in the game. yet it looks x trash compared with Raiding party.
Raiding Party tutors 2 specific cards and that already makes it a supeiror Arcane Intellect.
can also combo to draw 3 cards and again tutors a weapon.
even if this card was 5 mana i would still think it's too good
You should not compare cards between classes. Mage and other classes have cards that are obviously better than that of rogue. If you still want to compare it, why not with Book of Specters, which draws 3, for only 2 mana most of the times and is pretty amazing in giant mage
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Let's compare: Arcane Intellect vs Raiding Party
Arcane Intellect is arguably one of the best card draw in the game.
yet it looks x trash compared with Raiding party.
Raiding Party tutors 2 specific cards and that already makes it a supeiror Arcane Intellect.
can also combo to draw 3 cards and again tutors a weapon.
even if this card was 5 mana i would still think it's too good
You cant call coin into prep into raiding party into evil a standard move. That happens maybe 1 time in 100 games.
I just lost to a mage with turn 3 Mountain Giant into turn 4 trade, coin khadgar into conjurers calling. That was way more oppressive then the rogue combo.
I agree that the pick or raiding party should get a nerf but calling nerfs for prep, backstab or edwin is just too much. These cards define the rogue class since the beginning and by nerfing them you would dig a grave for the whole rogue class.
I thought about reading this thread seriously, but then I went back to the original post and I saw the absolute absurdity of the proposed nerfs. Nerfing Edwin VanCleef is the most infantile nerf I've ever seen suggested. Sure, on turn 3 Edwin can be an 8/8 with an investment of three additional, very specific cards. Meanwhile, mages can have an 8/8 mountain giant on turn 3 for one card. Edwin is insanely vulnerable to silence; no other big minion has that problem. Hmmm .....
Original poster is just a raging, salty, angry player, and these suggested nerfs are mostly so ridiculous that I cannot believe this thread has gotten this long. Pure insanity. The only reasonable nerf suggestions in this list are Raiding Party and Miscreant.
Side note: Backstab is conditional. Zap! is not. That's why Zap! has overload, while Backstab doesn't. This is REALLY basic game design here.
You had a good point until your last line. A 5-cost combo card is unplayable, no matter what effect it has. Just look at Kidnapper, if you even knew that card exists since NO ONE plays it.
Raiding party nerfed to 4 mana. Edwin should be +2/+1 for every card played and wagglepick should be one less damage. Voila, rogue is now less insane but still viable
Excuse me. Vilespine Slayer, one of the best cards ever made, would like to have a word with you :P
Check out my fun and innovative decks here:
Beat your opponent to a pulp with Revenant Warrior or outlast them with Demon Reno Warlock.
Exactly what I'm thinking. These nerfs exactly. Nothing more or less. Raiding, Pick, EvC in order of importance.
I think the biggest offender is Preparation. I think they will nerf it to discount for less.. that way they can release better rogue spells in the future too.. Preparation has been a big design space constraint for far too long and we see how powerful it is with raiding party, which would be good but not insane card without prep making it free, I saw many games where people played Preparation Raiding Party into EVIL Miscreant, next turn waggle pick into 2 dread corsairs.. that combo is too consistent with prep.
I would say 3 rogue cards need to be nerfed:
EVIL Miscreant- to generate 1 lackey or to be a 1/3 the card is too durable and not worth to get rid of with 5 hp maianing it gets bounced way too often while surviving on board.. or make it so it generates less value/tempo with less lackeys.
Preparation- explained above, a big design space constraint, way too powerful with 3 mana spells.
Raiding Party- how this card even got past through the balance team?
Rogue is my 4th most played class(after hunter,paladin and warlock) so I am not really a rogue hater but the amount of stuff rogue has going for is absurd.
Wont be nerfed in my opinion:
Edwin VanCleef- if they nerf prep they won't nerf him, also the class identity of being a trickster class goes very well with him.. he is a big "all in" card when he is big.
Leeroy Jenkins - the card is used in various ways just like zilliax, yes it's always a finisher but it has some skill expression when the right play is to play him for tempo.
Waggle Pick- if raiding party is nerfed I think this card will be less insane since it doesn't curve as well
This ^^
All day...
Ok, point taken. But as a 5-cost combo, Vilespine Slayer both removed an enemy unit and put a decent unit into play. Raiding Party does nothing at all to impact the board directly. It would be unplayable at 5-cost. It's pretty broken at 3-cost. The correct cost is 4.
I probably exaggerated saying would still be good at 5 mana but still think it's playable.
tutoring 3 cards in one is just OPAF
About Kidnapper the card is bad because stats dsitribution.
could see play if 3/5
"tutoring 3 cards in one is just OPAF"
Yes, it's excellent value. But a rogue deck using Raiding Party isn't really going for value or card advantage. It's going for face damage, mostly. "So, great job!" your opponent says. "You spent 5+ mana (or used up a Preparation), got a couple small pirates, and a good weapon. But now I'm gonna completely wreck your board and take over the game because your turn did absolutely nothing to advance the board state." --> This would be the story of Raiding Party at a 5-mana cost.
sap doesnt need mana cost nerf it needs more of recreation. same as vanish.
raiding party is a ok card (compare to hunters masters call)
preparation might be changed to gain 3 mana crystals this turn. next card that spends mana will use them all . this way you can play some other cards then just spells. but you cant carry over. this might help rise of new archetypes
I agree with most of your statements except for Waggle Pick. This thing is a real problem. Because:
Furthermore you can bounce all the powerful battlecry minions like lackys or EVIL Miscreant. I think Waggle Pick is what glues all these powerful cards you mentioned together to one powerhouse of a deck.
My suggested nerve would be to reduce the attack by one and make it cost 5 instead of 4 mana. This reduces the combopotential with the corsairs, while also disrupting the curve of turn 3: Backstab, Raiding Party. turn 4: Waggle Pick.
>> salt thread
rogue going always first makes even sense because rogue in wow pvp has that adventage of choosing whenever he wants to start fight
no need to nerf Waggle Pick, rogues will use 3 2 dagger instead then. i think raiding party is very strong because of 100% tempo cards to play. example : mage draws 2 random cards, rogue 3 tempo cards. Prep is also very strong spell, so its needed to nerf to 1 mana or go to HoF
Nice wall of text just fro some salt thread, lol.
You're off by a factor of 10. The math is complicated, but google is not. The odds of drawing any two card combo going second by turn 3 is 16%, which is about 1 our of 6 games. (source https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yFZ5Wn10QuBniLJH-sVp8ARVGeioWKwbB8qVJZyM3Wo/edit#gid=0). The odds of going second are 1 in 2. So that means a turn 3 coin-prep-raiding party-waggle pick>1 or 2 dread corsairs happens 1 out of every 12 games for Lackey rogue. Your chances of facing the combo (without or without coin) by turn 4 are nearly 1 in 5 games.
You should not compare cards between classes. Mage and other classes have cards that are obviously better than that of rogue. If you still want to compare it, why not with Book of Specters, which draws 3, for only 2 mana most of the times and is pretty amazing in giant mage