If Malygos becomes a problem (which I think is a real possibility) I really do hope they nerf the newer cards instead. Malygos is iconic and doesn't have the same problem that caused Ragnoros to get HOFed.
If Malygos becomes a problem (which I think is a real possibility) I really do hope they nerf the newer cards instead. Malygos is iconic and doesn't have the same problem that caused Ragnoros to get HOFed.
1st, as others have said, there almost certainly won't be any cards moved into the HoF for another 8-9 months. obviously just because they haven't done it mid-year before doesn't mean they could never do it, but it remains extremely unlikely.
2nd, i hope there are no more cards moved to the hall of fame (i would like the HoF to be done away with entirely and the classic cards that have been exiled to be returned to standard, because the HoF is a terrible, no good, very bad thing - more on that below)
3rd, if the druid cards in this set are hinting at anything being HoFed, i would put my money on either Wild Growth or Nourish, not Malygos. again i think this is a bad idea, as ramp ought to remain the core identity of druid, but my speculation is that they want to keep releasing new, slightly different ramp cards, with some breaks in between when they want to lessen druid's ramp ability to mitigate the dangers of other problematic cards. this is bad a) because it doesn't really make standard fresh, and it just makes wild worse, and b) its a horrible design philosophy to nerf/rotate perfectly fine cards to "fix" broken interactions caused by new cards, when any problem is clearly the fault of the new card, not the previously fine old card.
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"Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear turns into a cat and eats you." - Anonymous Druid
The point of rotation is Change. This is the mode that forces you to get out of your comfort zone every few years and hunt for new ways to play the game. There is not supposed to be some 'comfort pick' here. That is what Wild is for. Wild is where you go if you don't want to change, if you want to keep your deck or playstyle past the 2 year mark.
This is why cards like ice block was moved. Every expansion, every rotation, when mage cards came out the question was always "How will this fit freeze mage." or "Will this revive Freeze mage?" Sometimes the deck faded, but we always sought to bring it back. That is not how decks should work in Standard. At some point the deck should die, or at worst, be remade completely into a new form (which is why 'zoo' stil exists, because what we deem as 'zoo' isn't anything like it was in 2017, or the version in 2016, or 2015, or so on and I wouldn't really argue if someone wanted to debate about this not being good enough).
Honestly, Malygos decks haven't really changed in their game plan. Find a way to cheat Mally out while holding a mass of spells, cast spells at face. We haven't found a new way of using him. Just new cards that pull the same trick. It's never been broken, but it hasn't really changed. That's exactly a HoF situation (as opposed to a nerf situation).
That you always have to be careful of what spells you allow, what ramp you allow, and what cheat out effects you'll allow because "here comes the Mally deck!" is EXACTLY when you HoF a card.
Rotation does not become necessary solely because cards or strategies stay in Standard or don't change much over the years. The point of Classic and Basic as permanent Standard sets is to have a baseline that expansions can build upon, and having good cards in those sets allows the developers to make new decks for specfic strategies without forcing reprints. Also, there are mechanics that help the game to stay balanced, and having a strong lategame finisher like Malygos is good to have a counter-strategy to control-heavy decks.
That being said, the whole "design-space" argument is nonsense. It is an issue, when you run out of options to make new cards, plain and simple. Claiming that this space is already fully explored is just wrong.
But what if you can't make new cards without old ones becoming too good, or always would be better? Well, it's up to you, what is "too good". Design space is only "limited" in that regard, when you set up a limit for how powerful certain cards may become. And Team5 has shown in several instances, that they don't mind to push that limit further and further, when it comes to lategame strategies. From Quest Rogue to Jade Druid, to Razakus Priest, to Cubelock, to Taunt Druid, to Shudderwock. Massive permanent minion buffs for huge charge damage, infinte minions that bypass fatigue, massive unblockable damage from hero power, huge taunts at early levels, endlessly repeatable damaging and stabilizing battlecries... there is no limit. Making Malygos more powerful is not even out of place considering the recent trends.
Be that as it may, the "problem" that Malygos poses with some of the new cards is a fabricated one and removing him from the game seems to me like the wrong reaction. In essence, I have my doubts how "fun" are all these mana cheating effects are anyway. When you introduce mechanics that make expensive minions more and more accessible and easier to play, it is meant to be unfair. The mana cost is part of what makes a card fair, bypassing that through recruit, massive ramping, or cards like Floop takes that out of the equation, resulting in unfair cards.
But considering, that Boomsday was probably designed and finalized about half a year ago, I'm pretty sure that any internal concerns about Malygos would have been addressed in April. They removed Coldlight Oracle because they wanted to make Shudderwock and Lab Recruiter. Either, Team 5 is trying to create a pretext to take out Malygos (why would they?) or they really think it's fine.
The community is never going to avoid the best deck just to protect a card. It's sort of up to the devs to not create a situation where Maly has to go. Having said that, I hope they leave him be. The only cards that really need a Hall of Fame are ones that create problems within the context of the classic set itself. Conceal was always a horror show along with auctioneer and company. Maly may see a little more play in the 2018 and 2019 cycles, but unless they continue to add to the problem, it'll be alright in the long run.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Rotation does not become necessary solely because cards or strategies stay in Standard or don't change much over the years. The point of Classic and Basic as permanent Standard sets is to have a baseline that expansions can build upon, and having good cards in those sets allows the developers to make new decks for specfic strategies without forcing reprints. Also, there are mechanics that help the game to stay balanced, and having a strong lategame finisher like Malygos is good to have a counter-strategy to control-heavy decks.
That being said, the whole "design-space" argument is nonsense. It is an issue, when you run out of options to make new cards, plain and simple. Claiming that this space is already fully explored is just wrong.
But what if you can't make new cards without old ones becoming too good, or always would be better? Well, it's up to you, what is "too good". Design space is only "limited" in that regard, when you set up a limit for how powerful certain cards may become. And Team5 has shown in several instances, that they don't mind to push that limit further and further, when it comes to lategame strategies. From Quest Rogue to Jade Druid, to Razakus Priest, to Cubelock, to Taunt Druid, to Shudderwock. Massive permanent minion buffs for huge charge damage, infinte minions that bypass fatigue, massive unblockable damage from hero power, huge taunts at early levels, endlessly repeatable damaging and stabilizing battlecries... there is no limit. Making Malygos more powerful is not even out of place considering the recent trends.
Be that as it may, the "problem" that Malygos poses with some of the new cards is a fabricated one and removing him from the game seems to me like the wrong reaction. In essence, I have my doubts how "fun" are all these mana cheating effects are anyway. When you introduce mechanics that make expensive minions more and more accessible and easier to play, it is meant to be unfair. The mana cost is part of what makes a card fair, bypassing that through recruit, massive ramping, or cards like Floop takes that out of the equation, resulting in unfair cards.
But considering, that Boomsday was probably designed and finalized about half a year ago, I'm pretty sure that any internal concerns about Malygos would have been addressed in April. They removed Coldlight Oracle because they wanted to make Shudderwock and Lab Recruiter. Either, Team 5 is trying to create a pretext to take out Malygos (why would they?) or they really think it's fine.
I don't think they need to create a pretext for moving Malygos out. As you've said, they removed Coldlight due to issues he would make to future sets. He wasn't overbearing at the time. Neither was Ice Block or Ragnaros.
As I tend to put it: cards that cause problems are nerfed, not HOFed. If Malygos becomes a real problem, he'll get the nerf bat, which does not have to wait. Malygos being iconic or old or anything else means nothing as we've nerfed cards like innovate.
Blizzard has stated that Classic and Basic are NOT meant to preserve specific decks. Instead they exist for three reasons
1. To allow for a base set of cards to always exist to allow returning players to return without having their entire collection wiped out in two years.
2. To allow a starting point for newer players to focus on which is both easier to understand and more reliable as they don't have an expiration date. Note that this is why they refuse to update the cards with newer terms like 'rush'.
3. They supply the identity of the classes. Mages rely on spells, warlocks love demons and hurting themselves, so on.
What they seek to avoid, however, are evergreen decks: Decks that rely on classic/basic cards and, thus, can continue to exist past rotation. Decks like Jade Druid/Shaman and Secret Paladin were acceptable because they had an expiration date for Standard. So long as they don't overwhelm the meta during that time, they are left alone.
(funny note, of the decks you mentioned half of the decks (Quest Rogue, Razakus Priest, and Cubelock) were nerfed specifically because Blizzard did NOT accept their power level. In fact, their nerf bats flat out killed Razakus Priest. They nerfed Quest Rogue TWICE.)
Decks like freeze mage and mill Rogue were not overwhelming the meta. They have no regrets making cards like Ice Block and Coldlight. That's why they were never nerfed. However, they shouldn't stay around forever. ALL decks will eventually need to move on to allow for new decks and new ideas. These decks would not because their key cards would remain. This is the reason why HoF exists.
I do not believe that Malygos is a PROBLEM. He's a finisher. Finishers are good to have. Decks need a win condition and he makes a fine one. So I don't think he'll ever get the nerf bat. But he's been a finisher for spell burst decks since 2014. Different decks have used him. Different classes have used him. But all worked the same way: stall the board and either cheat him out for less mana or use him with a lot of cheap spells then everything to the face. If he's not doing that, he's put back into collections to await the next time we can cheat him or cast cheap spells.
4 years of this is a long time for deck style in Standard. We're not going to find a new cool way of using him. And we'll keep using him the conditions are met. That's the MO of a HoF card.
And 'taken out of the game' is nonsense. Unless you just started playing this year or have dreams of HTC (or foolish enough to dust every wild card you own) Wild should be as viable a mode as Standard. The second you have a deck you want to use for more than 2 years, that's when you should stop worshipping Standard and visit Wild. That's what it's for. So stop deeming it some wasteland.
Maly gets one more year in Standard. But it's soon time for Maly players to either find a new way to play or take the dive to Wild.
Tell you what, lets come to a middle ground. Don't HoF Maylgos, nerf him. Make his ability Battlecry +5 spell damage to this minion. That way the otk decks that draw him out without playing him can't function but he still works as a normal card.
If they do it, they'll also need to nerf Shudderwock in a major way as that will be the last thing stopping actual control games from happening ever again that aren't dictated by the likes of Guldan or Anduin.
Most omega cards are bad in even Standard so long as Maly and Shudderwock exist, unfortunately.
We need to see how good Malygos effectively will be, maybe warrior will be Tier 1 with azalina change be able to beat Shudderwock. Could easily outarmor a combo malygos since you run almost no minions its impossible to pressure the warrior.
Also Snipe and Explosive runes counter Dreampetal Florist. And aggro mech hunter might be fast enough to just crush the deck.
Well need to see how meta will be, this is the strongest set in powerlvl released so far so who knows how meta will look like.
I don't think Malygos is overpowered at all. He is 9 mana for a reason, and he has historically been very challenging to use successfully, only being played when entire decks are formed around him. The problem instead (IMO) is that in the last few expansions Blizzard has kept trying to print ways to cheat out big cards early.
He is perfectly fair in a few situations: when he costs the traditional 9 mana, or 8 with Emperor Thaurissan tick; when he has to be combo-ed out with multiple other cards that require extensive setup, such as the Aviana plus Kun the Forgotten King combo; when the deck requires extreme amounts of stalling/card draw, which would be completely balanced in Druid if Ultimate Infestation wasn't a thing; and when he isn't playable until you are 20 turns into the game and the opponent has time to draw all their answers.
He is NOT fair if he can be played before turn 9, and if you can tutor him out to be a guaranteed draw, along with the rest of your combo. Just like the problem with Cubelock was Possessed Lackey and not Voidlord or Doomguard, Malygos is not the problem in the Druid combo decks. If anything, cards like Juicy Psychmelon and Ultimate Infestation simply shouldn't be printed in the first place, and then we wouldn't have a problem. All of this is just in my opinion, of course, and it all comes from someone who has always mained Druid.
Ragnaros and Sylvanas are even more iconic to HS but they are still HOFed. So your agurment is not valid at all
So now we have to explain to you how hall of fame works?
And on top of that you think you can use a forum thread to influence the meta?
If Malygos becomes a problem (which I think is a real possibility) I really do hope they nerf the newer cards instead. Malygos is iconic and doesn't have the same problem that caused Ragnoros to get HOFed.
Yes sure, Ragnaros cant hit you 30+ in the face
1st, as others have said, there almost certainly won't be any cards moved into the HoF for another 8-9 months. obviously just because they haven't done it mid-year before doesn't mean they could never do it, but it remains extremely unlikely.
2nd, i hope there are no more cards moved to the hall of fame (i would like the HoF to be done away with entirely and the classic cards that have been exiled to be returned to standard, because the HoF is a terrible, no good, very bad thing - more on that below)
3rd, if the druid cards in this set are hinting at anything being HoFed, i would put my money on either Wild Growth or Nourish, not Malygos. again i think this is a bad idea, as ramp ought to remain the core identity of druid, but my speculation is that they want to keep releasing new, slightly different ramp cards, with some breaks in between when they want to lessen druid's ramp ability to mitigate the dangers of other problematic cards. this is bad a) because it doesn't really make standard fresh, and it just makes wild worse, and b) its a horrible design philosophy to nerf/rotate perfectly fine cards to "fix" broken interactions caused by new cards, when any problem is clearly the fault of the new card, not the previously fine old card.
"Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear turns into a cat and eats you." - Anonymous Druid
Rotation does not become necessary solely because cards or strategies stay in Standard or don't change much over the years. The point of Classic and Basic as permanent Standard sets is to have a baseline that expansions can build upon, and having good cards in those sets allows the developers to make new decks for specfic strategies without forcing reprints. Also, there are mechanics that help the game to stay balanced, and having a strong lategame finisher like Malygos is good to have a counter-strategy to control-heavy decks.
That being said, the whole "design-space" argument is nonsense. It is an issue, when you run out of options to make new cards, plain and simple. Claiming that this space is already fully explored is just wrong.
But what if you can't make new cards without old ones becoming too good, or always would be better? Well, it's up to you, what is "too good". Design space is only "limited" in that regard, when you set up a limit for how powerful certain cards may become. And Team5 has shown in several instances, that they don't mind to push that limit further and further, when it comes to lategame strategies. From Quest Rogue to Jade Druid, to Razakus Priest, to Cubelock, to Taunt Druid, to Shudderwock. Massive permanent minion buffs for huge charge damage, infinte minions that bypass fatigue, massive unblockable damage from hero power, huge taunts at early levels, endlessly repeatable damaging and stabilizing battlecries... there is no limit. Making Malygos more powerful is not even out of place considering the recent trends.
Be that as it may, the "problem" that Malygos poses with some of the new cards is a fabricated one and removing him from the game seems to me like the wrong reaction. In essence, I have my doubts how "fun" are all these mana cheating effects are anyway. When you introduce mechanics that make expensive minions more and more accessible and easier to play, it is meant to be unfair. The mana cost is part of what makes a card fair, bypassing that through recruit, massive ramping, or cards like Floop takes that out of the equation, resulting in unfair cards.
But considering, that Boomsday was probably designed and finalized about half a year ago, I'm pretty sure that any internal concerns about Malygos would have been addressed in April. They removed Coldlight Oracle because they wanted to make Shudderwock and Lab Recruiter. Either, Team 5 is trying to create a pretext to take out Malygos (why would they?) or they really think it's fine.
The community is never going to avoid the best deck just to protect a card. It's sort of up to the devs to not create a situation where Maly has to go. Having said that, I hope they leave him be. The only cards that really need a Hall of Fame are ones that create problems within the context of the classic set itself. Conceal was always a horror show along with auctioneer and company. Maly may see a little more play in the 2018 and 2019 cycles, but unless they continue to add to the problem, it'll be alright in the long run.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
I don't think they need to create a pretext for moving Malygos out. As you've said, they removed Coldlight due to issues he would make to future sets. He wasn't overbearing at the time. Neither was Ice Block or Ragnaros.
As I tend to put it: cards that cause problems are nerfed, not HOFed. If Malygos becomes a real problem, he'll get the nerf bat, which does not have to wait. Malygos being iconic or old or anything else means nothing as we've nerfed cards like innovate.
Blizzard has stated that Classic and Basic are NOT meant to preserve specific decks. Instead they exist for three reasons
1. To allow for a base set of cards to always exist to allow returning players to return without having their entire collection wiped out in two years.
2. To allow a starting point for newer players to focus on which is both easier to understand and more reliable as they don't have an expiration date. Note that this is why they refuse to update the cards with newer terms like 'rush'.
3. They supply the identity of the classes. Mages rely on spells, warlocks love demons and hurting themselves, so on.
What they seek to avoid, however, are evergreen decks: Decks that rely on classic/basic cards and, thus, can continue to exist past rotation. Decks like Jade Druid/Shaman and Secret Paladin were acceptable because they had an expiration date for Standard. So long as they don't overwhelm the meta during that time, they are left alone.
(funny note, of the decks you mentioned half of the decks (Quest Rogue, Razakus Priest, and Cubelock) were nerfed specifically because Blizzard did NOT accept their power level. In fact, their nerf bats flat out killed Razakus Priest. They nerfed Quest Rogue TWICE.)
Decks like freeze mage and mill Rogue were not overwhelming the meta. They have no regrets making cards like Ice Block and Coldlight. That's why they were never nerfed. However, they shouldn't stay around forever. ALL decks will eventually need to move on to allow for new decks and new ideas. These decks would not because their key cards would remain. This is the reason why HoF exists.
I do not believe that Malygos is a PROBLEM. He's a finisher. Finishers are good to have. Decks need a win condition and he makes a fine one. So I don't think he'll ever get the nerf bat. But he's been a finisher for spell burst decks since 2014. Different decks have used him. Different classes have used him. But all worked the same way: stall the board and either cheat him out for less mana or use him with a lot of cheap spells then everything to the face. If he's not doing that, he's put back into collections to await the next time we can cheat him or cast cheap spells.
4 years of this is a long time for deck style in Standard. We're not going to find a new cool way of using him. And we'll keep using him the conditions are met. That's the MO of a HoF card.
And 'taken out of the game' is nonsense. Unless you just started playing this year or have dreams of HTC (or foolish enough to dust every wild card you own) Wild should be as viable a mode as Standard. The second you have a deck you want to use for more than 2 years, that's when you should stop worshipping Standard and visit Wild. That's what it's for. So stop deeming it some wasteland.
Maly gets one more year in Standard. But it's soon time for Maly players to either find a new way to play or take the dive to Wild.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
Nah, they can HoF malygos, i'm sick of all these tier 1 druid decks
Or make a Reddit ad.
if blizz HoF malygos, i just quit the game
Favorite Cards: 1. Lord Jaraxxus | 2. Malygos| 3. Edwin VanCleef | 4. Zephrys the Great| 5. Deathwing
no, because none of the legendaries dragons got rotated
Favorite Cards: 1. Lord Jaraxxus | 2. Malygos| 3. Edwin VanCleef | 4. Zephrys the Great| 5. Deathwing
if all the classic legendaries that kept a deck alive were removed the leeroy would have been removed long ago
So maly is going to stay...
Favorite Cards: 1. Lord Jaraxxus | 2. Malygos| 3. Edwin VanCleef | 4. Zephrys the Great| 5. Deathwing
On that note can we bring Sylvannas and Ragnaros back? :'(
Tell you what, lets come to a middle ground. Don't HoF Maylgos, nerf him. Make his ability Battlecry +5 spell damage to this minion. That way the otk decks that draw him out without playing him can't function but he still works as a normal card.
If they do it, they'll also need to nerf Shudderwock in a major way as that will be the last thing stopping actual control games from happening ever again that aren't dictated by the likes of Guldan or Anduin.
Most omega cards are bad in even Standard so long as Maly and Shudderwock exist, unfortunately.
Same Thoughts Here ...I Hate auctioneer and I hope it will rotate to HoF next year ...
We need to see how good Malygos effectively will be, maybe warrior will be Tier 1 with azalina change be able to beat Shudderwock. Could easily outarmor a combo malygos since you run almost no minions its impossible to pressure the warrior.
Also Snipe and Explosive runes counter Dreampetal Florist. And aggro mech hunter might be fast enough to just crush the deck.
Well need to see how meta will be, this is the strongest set in powerlvl released so far so who knows how meta will look like.
I don't think Malygos is overpowered at all. He is 9 mana for a reason, and he has historically been very challenging to use successfully, only being played when entire decks are formed around him. The problem instead (IMO) is that in the last few expansions Blizzard has kept trying to print ways to cheat out big cards early.
He is perfectly fair in a few situations: when he costs the traditional 9 mana, or 8 with Emperor Thaurissan tick; when he has to be combo-ed out with multiple other cards that require extensive setup, such as the Aviana plus Kun the Forgotten King combo; when the deck requires extreme amounts of stalling/card draw, which would be completely balanced in Druid if Ultimate Infestation wasn't a thing; and when he isn't playable until you are 20 turns into the game and the opponent has time to draw all their answers.
He is NOT fair if he can be played before turn 9, and if you can tutor him out to be a guaranteed draw, along with the rest of your combo. Just like the problem with Cubelock was Possessed Lackey and not Voidlord or Doomguard, Malygos is not the problem in the Druid combo decks. If anything, cards like Juicy Psychmelon and Ultimate Infestation simply shouldn't be printed in the first place, and then we wouldn't have a problem. All of this is just in my opinion, of course, and it all comes from someone who has always mained Druid.
The World Is Yours
Yes, because never was so freaking easy to cheat the mana like the new druid cards.
Hell, the new druid cards are so insanely overpowered that put, in comparison, the excelent Emperor into garbage tier.