Even though Al'Akir hits its valuation on the mark, is it worth that value on the board?
Unlike most minions, and actually unique to all minions, 53% of Al'Akir's value is tied up in card text, and 47% in attack and defense stats. That's a hugely lopsided ratio.
The problem with having so much value tied up in card text is that all of that card text is easily removed with a single silence spell. Silence Al'Akir and what is left? A very poor 3/5 minion for an 8 mana cost. Yes, Al'Akir will deliver an immediate 6 damage on the turn it is played, which makes it an expensive version of Leeroy Jenkins. If the Shaman player wants an immediate 6 damage burst, they'd be better off playing Leeroy in their decks.
The other problem with Al'Akir the Windlord is that it offers no particular synergy with the Shaman class. Compare to other class legendaries. The Priest's Prophet Velen offers synergy with Priest spells and hero power. Edwin VanCleef ties into the Rogue's comboing ability. Grommash Hellscream can synergize with the enrage abilities of Warrior specific cards. King Krush is a beast, which ties into Hunter beast synergy. Al'Akir offers nothing that is unique to Shaman.
Of equal cost, most other legendaries and epics after being silenced are still left with some beefy stats on the board. That's because a lower percentage of those cards' valuations are tied up in card text. Which is what makes Al'Akir such a poor addition to a Shaman deck, 53% of its value is so easily neutered by a single silence spell.
Is Al'Akir worth playing in a Shaman deck? Not really (other than the novelty). It's simply too expensive, especially considering how simple it is for an opponent to remove such a large chunk of the card's value.
What might have made Al'Akir the Windlord a card worth sliding into a Shaman deck? A 6 mana cost with an Overload (2) penalty. At least with an overload penalty, it looks and behaves like a Shaman card.
The 6 mana cost (2 overload) would be a nice buff.
Turn 10 shamans could (flametounge, al'akir, 2 x rockbiter) for 22 damage. Still pretty crappy when you compare it to some of the deadly leeroy combos.
10 mana cost. And only if you have both Rockbiters available, and if you weren't forced to use one on a previous turn, which, by the time you get to turn 10, could be very likely.
Edit: Oh, you're talking about Al'Akir with my suggested change to 6 mana. My apologies for misreading.
Al'akir is total crap. That is why every successful shaman list is running him.
Al'akir is usually cast with a rockbiter to deliver a 12 point burst to the opponent. So what makes him better than the 4 mana Leeroy that can deliver the same punch with a windfury? He does not require you to run a crap card like windfury in your deck, but instead works with a card that is otherwise a 3 point burn spell. He can chew through the opponent's Ancient Watcher or Druid of the Claw and deal another 6. He is a real damn creature, not a disguised fireball that you can only cast to deal lethal.
the thing I notice people not realizing is that health shouldnt be 1 value for 1 point of health. the reason being is that the higher the health of the creature, the more valuable that creature is. because no matter if the creature has 1 hp or 5, its still doing the same amount of damage, it just shows how many times it can do that damage. a 3/5 can most likely do it's 6 damage per turn a lot more times than a 6/2 can.
the 3/5 can probably get a 2 or 3 for 1 deal where as the 6/2 will either have to wait till fatal damage or just be a 1 for 1 deal. so I really would suggest that each health point doesnt equal 1 value point.
I'm not suggesting King Krush is all that great either. He's too expensive for a Hunter rush deck (which is the only viable type of Hunter deck currently), but at least he's Hunter-like.
I'm not suggesting King Krush is all that great either. He's too expensive for a Hunter rush deck (which is the only viable type of Hunter deck currently), but at least he's Hunter-like.
I'm sorry but what?
What rank are you even playing at?
Hunter's are terribad. The only thing they do reasonably well is rush, and that's pretty easy to shut down. They don't do anything else very well.
There's definitely more and more mid-game sort of hunter decks around at the moment, I think they can still run crap like UTH and Leeroy for the finishing blow, but otherwise they put in cards like Highmane, explosive shot, deadly shot and multi-shot maybe - Good cards to keep board control as an option.
In terms of Al'Akir, I like to think of him in terms of how I consider Argent Commander. He's basically Argent Commander, with an extra attack for 2 mana. So thus, I think he is a fine card, can realistically three-for-one against rushier decks if you make it to turn 8, and can apply nice burst damage. Because he has an immediate impact, silence is less of a worry I'd say when compared to cards like Tirion.
Well, I guess that is an interesting sidenote to Hearthstone theorycrafting; Some obscure cards can look bad value on paper to a lot of people, but you probably have to taken into account more than just a points based system in evaluating them imho.
I already think it is a great card, and would love to own one, but dropping some of it's cost into Overload will make a great card into a true legendary! What I'd actually really like to see is if he becomes 4 cost with 5 Overload (yes that's 9, but dropping that beast on turn 4 needs some negative effect)
It would be an issue, just as pyroblast was an issue, and Leeroy is an issue now. Instant damage potential that is over-the-top without effort can lead to bad, bad trends in the metagame.
It would be an issue, just as pyroblast was an issue, and Leeroy is an issue now. Instant damage potential that is over-the-top without effort can lead to bad, bad trends in the metagame.
Personally I hate things that bypass taunts or boost damage to rediculous amounts without having anything on the field. I would prefer the game actually focus on the battlefield instead.
There is no need to attack a simple post with logical fallacies here.
I did not "hate on non-control decks" as SajT said, in fact I attest the trends that lead to legendary heavy decks by slow druids for instance, hence why I run and blog about non-legendary card decks. A card that can cause 6 instant damage for 4 mana, and can be coupled with a single other card like shadowstep or UtH to double that damage output cheaply causes bad trends in the meta, and is happening this very instant on ranked.
I did not suggest any class spells that have the potential to cause damage should be removed from the game, as Codeksp seems to be suggesting. The exception was pyroblast, which could and did lead to BS 8-turn decks using pyroblast to ignore non-taunt targets.
Personally I hate things that bypass taunts or boost damage to rediculous amounts without having anything on the field. I would prefer the game actually focus on the battlefield instead.
Those cards are fine because they do not deal incredible amounts of damage on their own. They require some effort to be truly lethal, unlike the 8 mana Pyroblast did and unlike the version of Al'akir you are suggesting (which is more broken than the pre-nerf pyroblast).
Personally I hate things that bypass taunts or boost damage to rediculous amounts without having anything on the field. I would prefer the game actually focus on the battlefield instead.
Those cards are fine because they do not deal incredible amounts of damage on their own. They require some effort to be truly lethal, unlike the 8 mana Pyroblast did and unlike the version of Al'akir you are suggesting (which is more broken than the pre-nerf pyroblast).
You're forgetting that he can't bypass taunts, costs 8 and dies easily. You are only seeing him as an instant 12 damage. I still think the taunt needs to be removed and at the very least make him 4-5
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I have an article on minion valuation, the formula that Blizzard likely uses in determining the mana costs of minions. The formula being:
Point Value = 1 + (Mana Cost x 2)
Based on that formula, one would expect Al'Akir the Windlord to have 17 points of value. Which it does.
8 points (3 atk/5 def) + 2 points (Windfury) + 3 points (Charge) + 3 points (Divine Shield) + 1 point (Taunt) = 17 points
Even though Al'Akir hits its valuation on the mark, is it worth that value on the board?
Unlike most minions, and actually unique to all minions, 53% of Al'Akir's value is tied up in card text, and 47% in attack and defense stats. That's a hugely lopsided ratio.
The problem with having so much value tied up in card text is that all of that card text is easily removed with a single silence spell. Silence Al'Akir and what is left? A very poor 3/5 minion for an 8 mana cost. Yes, Al'Akir will deliver an immediate 6 damage on the turn it is played, which makes it an expensive version of Leeroy Jenkins. If the Shaman player wants an immediate 6 damage burst, they'd be better off playing Leeroy in their decks.
The other problem with Al'Akir the Windlord is that it offers no particular synergy with the Shaman class. Compare to other class legendaries. The Priest's Prophet Velen offers synergy with Priest spells and hero power. Edwin VanCleef ties into the Rogue's comboing ability. Grommash Hellscream can synergize with the enrage abilities of Warrior specific cards. King Krush is a beast, which ties into Hunter beast synergy. Al'Akir offers nothing that is unique to Shaman.
Of equal cost, most other legendaries and epics after being silenced are still left with some beefy stats on the board. That's because a lower percentage of those cards' valuations are tied up in card text. Which is what makes Al'Akir such a poor addition to a Shaman deck, 53% of its value is so easily neutered by a single silence spell.
Is Al'Akir worth playing in a Shaman deck? Not really (other than the novelty). It's simply too expensive, especially considering how simple it is for an opponent to remove such a large chunk of the card's value.
What might have made Al'Akir the Windlord a card worth sliding into a Shaman deck? A 6 mana cost with an Overload (2) penalty. At least with an overload penalty, it looks and behaves like a Shaman card.
(original article)
Poetic.
The 6 mana cost (2 overload) would be a nice buff.
Turn 10 shamans could (flametounge, al'akir, 2 x rockbiter) for 22 damage. Still pretty crappy when you compare it to some of the deadly leeroy combos.
Agree, seems in line.
Al'Akir + rockbiter x2 = 3 cards, 8 mana cost, 18 dmg.
Leeroy + UTH + Timber Wolf = 3 cards, 7 mana cost, 10 dmg without minions on opponent board.
If opponent has at least 3 minions on board the dmg is the same, but with 1 less mana and no overload penalty.
But i think Blizzard would never buff him, it's easier they nerf Leeroy instead.
10 mana cost. And only if you have both Rockbiters available, and if you weren't forced to use one on a previous turn, which, by the time you get to turn 10, could be very likely.
Edit: Oh, you're talking about Al'Akir with my suggested change to 6 mana. My apologies for misreading.
Poetic.
Al'akir is total crap. That is why every successful shaman list is running him.
Al'akir is usually cast with a rockbiter to deliver a 12 point burst to the opponent. So what makes him better than the 4 mana Leeroy that can deliver the same punch with a windfury?
He does not require you to run a crap card like windfury in your deck, but instead works with a card that is otherwise a 3 point burn spell.
He can chew through the opponent's Ancient Watcher or Druid of the Claw and deal another 6.
He is a real damn creature, not a disguised fireball that you can only cast to deal lethal.
the thing I notice people not realizing is that health shouldnt be 1 value for 1 point of health. the reason being is that the higher the health of the creature, the more valuable that creature is. because no matter if the creature has 1 hp or 5, its still doing the same amount of damage, it just shows how many times it can do that damage. a 3/5 can most likely do it's 6 damage per turn a lot more times than a 6/2 can.
the 3/5 can probably get a 2 or 3 for 1 deal where as the 6/2 will either have to wait till fatal damage or just be a 1 for 1 deal. so I really would suggest that each health point doesnt equal 1 value point.
I'm not suggesting King Krush is all that great either. He's too expensive for a Hunter rush deck (which is the only viable type of Hunter deck currently), but at least he's Hunter-like.
Poetic.
Hunter's are terribad. The only thing they do reasonably well is rush, and that's pretty easy to shut down. They don't do anything else very well.
Poetic.
There's definitely more and more mid-game sort of hunter decks around at the moment, I think they can still run crap like UTH and Leeroy for the finishing blow, but otherwise they put in cards like Highmane, explosive shot, deadly shot and multi-shot maybe - Good cards to keep board control as an option.
In terms of Al'Akir, I like to think of him in terms of how I consider Argent Commander. He's basically Argent Commander, with an extra attack for 2 mana. So thus, I think he is a fine card, can realistically three-for-one against rushier decks if you make it to turn 8, and can apply nice burst damage. Because he has an immediate impact, silence is less of a worry I'd say when compared to cards like Tirion.
http://suttynest.wordpress.com - Legends Rank W/Out Legendaries player - Hearthstone Advice & Theory
How come no1 but 1 person realizes how amazing that legendary for some strong shaman decks is lol...
Well, I guess that is an interesting sidenote to Hearthstone theorycrafting; Some obscure cards can look bad value on paper to a lot of people, but you probably have to taken into account more than just a points based system in evaluating them imho.
http://suttynest.wordpress.com - Legends Rank W/Out Legendaries player - Hearthstone Advice & Theory
I already think it is a great card, and would love to own one, but dropping some of it's cost into Overload will make a great card into a true legendary! What I'd actually really like to see is if he becomes 4 cost with 5 Overload (yes that's 9, but dropping that beast on turn 4 needs some negative effect)
I'm thinking the OP doesn't play at a high rank, but that's just me.
Anyway personally I wouldn't mind seeing Al'Akir the Windlord be made into a 6/3 without the taunt.
So: 12 damage straight up without any buffs? That would be sooooo OP.
http://suttynest.wordpress.com - Legends Rank W/Out Legendaries player - Hearthstone Advice & Theory
Why not? for 8 cost and only 3 health I think that wouldn't be an issue.
It would be an issue, just as pyroblast was an issue, and Leeroy is an issue now. Instant damage potential that is over-the-top without effort can lead to bad, bad trends in the metagame.
http://suttynest.wordpress.com - Legends Rank W/Out Legendaries player - Hearthstone Advice & Theory
In that case let's remove Leeroy Jenkins, Force of Nature, Savage Roar,Bloodlust, Rockbiter Weapon,Fireball, Ice Lance, Heroic Strike, Mortal Strike and Mind Blast from the game.
Personally I hate things that bypass taunts or boost damage to rediculous amounts without having anything on the field. I would prefer the game actually focus on the battlefield instead.
There is no need to attack a simple post with logical fallacies here.
I did not "hate on non-control decks" as SajT said, in fact I attest the trends that lead to legendary heavy decks by slow druids for instance, hence why I run and blog about non-legendary card decks. A card that can cause 6 instant damage for 4 mana, and can be coupled with a single other card like shadowstep or UtH to double that damage output cheaply causes bad trends in the meta, and is happening this very instant on ranked.
I did not suggest any class spells that have the potential to cause damage should be removed from the game, as Codeksp seems to be suggesting. The exception was pyroblast, which could and did lead to BS 8-turn decks using pyroblast to ignore non-taunt targets.
http://suttynest.wordpress.com - Legends Rank W/Out Legendaries player - Hearthstone Advice & Theory
Those cards are fine because they do not deal incredible amounts of damage on their own. They require some effort to be truly lethal, unlike the 8 mana Pyroblast did and unlike the version of Al'akir you are suggesting (which is more broken than the pre-nerf pyroblast).
You're forgetting that he can't bypass taunts, costs 8 and dies easily. You are only seeing him as an instant 12 damage. I still think the taunt needs to be removed and at the very least make him 4-5