Before I begin with what I want to be the premise of a healthy discussion about an extremely popular card, I want to get rid of a few assumptions one might make about this thread. Firstly, I love Zephrys the Great. I think it's a fun card to play with, and I applaud Blizzard and Team 5 for making such a daring move in design and mechanics. Secondly, I don't think it's too strong, I'm not salty about losing to Zephrys, ever, and I don't think it needs changing, yet.
But, and this is the part I want to discuss with one another, there's one inherent flaw about the design of such a card: it utterly defeats class identity and a class' weaknesses and strengths. Not too long ago, Blizzard opened up a book about the way they view class identity and how they think one class should be extremely good at a certain thing (Warlock should flood and draw), while being extremely bad at another (Warlock has limited access to healing and Taunts). Thus, Warlock can function extremely well in a certain environment, Zoolock being the best example.
A card like Zephrys changes that, in my opinion, even in a monumental way. Suddenly, all classes have access to ALL Basic and Classic cards of all classes. Not too big of a deal, right? Well, I beg to differ. What used to be a big problem for a certain class, becomes not such a big problem for said class. Need AoE as Hunter? No problem, you can use Brawl or Twisting Nether. Need burst damage as Warrior on a full board? No problem, you can have a Savage Roar or Bloodlust.
"But you can only use Zephrys if you run a Highlander deck!" While true, I would like anyone saying that to look at the current decklists of the top-performing decks, say, the ones in rank 5 to Legend. There are already numerous decks that have good draw, and just run Zephrys anyway, because the card is thát good. Suddenly, there are Aggro Warriors and Tempo Quest Druids that don't have ANY resemblance of being a Highlander deck, but still run Zephrys. And I think that part is just getting started. And I think it's thát part that is problematic.
Now, again, I think Zephrys is a fun card, and it makes matches fun to play and watch. But if you, as a developer, make a statement about the importance of class identity, Zephrys is an illogical design decision. It truly already reminds me of how powerful Sylvanas was in the early days. Luckily, Zephrys will rotate, but I see it becoming the must-include card of the following year of Hearthstone. It's a Hail-Mary card, and while it's fun, it can also sometimes feel extremely unfair.
What are your opinions on Zephrys? Am I right to question its place in the grand scheme of things, or should I not be worried about how it's going to develop? Should we be worried about what this means in terms of the contents of the Basic and Classic cards? Will more of them be nerfed because a card like Zephrys now gives access to these cards?
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Dad, husband, gamer, fueled by coffee.
Currently playing Dragon Galakrond Priest, Dragon Galakrond Warrior and Highlander Dragon Hunter.
Luckily, Zephrys will rotate, but I see it becoming the must-include card of the following year of Hearthstone.
This is why it's okay. And it's less ubiquitous than something like Lich King. And probably less harmful to the game than something like Keleseth.
I think we can all agree that Keleseth was an abomination, especially in Rogue.
Your comparison to the Lich King is a good one; to me, that card is a perfect example as to how the process of design should go. However, Lich King had clear downsides to it, when compared to Zephrys. Half of the cards where mostly bad in most situations, and it was at random. Apart from that, it was an 8-mana card. Zephrys lets you choose, and with the constant tweaking of the card, its outcomes will only get better.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Dad, husband, gamer, fueled by coffee.
Currently playing Dragon Galakrond Priest, Dragon Galakrond Warrior and Highlander Dragon Hunter.
I think we can all agree that Keleseth was an abomination, especially in Rogue.
Your comparison to the Lich King is a good one; to me, that card is a perfect example as to how the process of design should go. However, Lich King had clear downsides to it, when compared to Zephrys. Half of the cards where mostly bad in most situations, and it was at random. Apart from that, it was an 8-mana card. Zephrys lets you choose, and with the constant tweaking of the card, its outcomes will only get better.
I disagree. Yes, sometimes the lich cards were bad, but Lich King was always an 8-mana, 8/8, taunt that drew a card.
In non-highlander decks, you aren't playing Zeph on curve and getting his effect. Even though the effect is much better, you are playing it at the very end of the game. Which means you've been holding a dead card in your hand for a very long time. It's not entirely unlike Nomi in that respect.
Where Lich King pretty much fit in everything, I think it's likely that non-Highlander decks playing Zeph will have to be pretty unique. Not every deck has Myra's or Tip the Scales to activate Zeph easily. For example, you aren't putting this in non-highlander Aggro Warrior (probably????).
I agree that class identity SHOULD be one of the most important things preserved in Hearthstone. Otherwise, why have 9 classes in the first place? Why even print cards that give classes 2 or more ways to play that class? Like Burn/Tempo Mage or Control Mage.
Zephrys does break this idea and I don't like the card for that purpose. But like you, I love the overall design of the card, but it does present a few problems as players find ways to put this card in decks it was never meant to be played in.
The ability for Zoo to go and grab a Savage Roar is so potentially unbalancing, it might need to discussed and find out or if it's possible to balance Zephrys somehow.
Even Control Warrior can play Zephrys easily enough. How? Well, they play enough 'tutor' cards and card draw that it's not that hard to meet the conditions. Do we really want Control Warrior having access to tools they shouldn't have in a non Highlander deck?
Much like many people are going back to Classic WOW and playing with vanilla stuff, maybe we need some sort of reset for Hearthstone. Or a new design team. Or something to change.
Lean into the class flaws and lean into the strengths. If Warrior is about taunt and weapons. Then lean into it. Give them a minion that has Taunt AND equips a weapon. But DON'T give them minions that can kill minions with simple battlecry effects. Being able to do 10 damage to any minion is far too powerful. Doing 5 damage on turn 5 can clear a board of non-mechs and win the game outright. Then you add rush to these minions and it's no longer possible to keep a board against Warrior late game.
Druid is supposed to be bad at big minion removal with spells. They can trade minions instead, but they no longer have the ability to remove a minion with a simple spell unless it has low health. They were also supposed to be the Ramp class. Lean into both of these flaws and strengths. Create more cards that ramp, even if they are conditional. Allow Druids to cheat the curve by giving up early tempo and card quality and deck flexibility. Where are the Ramp cards? Where are the 10 mana minion payoffs? You know which class should have 'OMEGA' cards? That's right Druid. Druid because they were supposed to ramp to 10 and therefore abuse the 10 mana Omega effects.
Rogue is weak against wide boards and aggro decks in general. They got rid of Vanish, but kept the effect. Vanish should have been give ALL of your minions Stealth. That feels more Rogue like.
I think we can all agree that Keleseth was an abomination, especially in Rogue.
Your comparison to the Lich King is a good one; to me, that card is a perfect example as to how the process of design should go. However, Lich King had clear downsides to it, when compared to Zephrys. Half of the cards where mostly bad in most situations, and it was at random. Apart from that, it was an 8-mana card. Zephrys lets you choose, and with the constant tweaking of the card, its outcomes will only get better.
I disagree. Yes, sometimes the lich cards were bad, but Lich King was always an 8-mana, 8/8, taunt that drew a card.
In non-highlander decks, you aren't playing Zeph on curve and getting his effect. Even though the effect is much better, you are playing it at the very end of the game. Which means you've been holding a dead card in your hand for a very long time. It's not entirely unlike Nomi in that respect.
Where Lich King pretty much fit in everything, I think it's likely that non-Highlander decks playing Zeph will have to be pretty unique. Not every deck has Myra's or Tip the Scales to activate Zeph easily. For example, you aren't putting this in non-highlander Aggro Warrior (probably????).
Lich King was strong and flexible, there's no denying that, nor was it my intent to come over as someone who questioned his strength. But the randomness of his outcomes was exactly what was so fair about it. Lich King did not count as a win-condition, Zephrys can. Lich King did not count as a card that can save your behind, Zephrys can. Lich King was extremely strong, but it felt more fair. Same as Zilliax, for example.
And there are already multiple decks that do NOT run one-offs, but still include Zephrys. Zoolock can run it, Quest Druid runs it, and I wouldn't be surprised if some future iteration of Big Spell Mage runs it. He works extremely well in Control decks, or decks that like to draw. I'm also expecting Octosari to be used more, in tempo decks mostly, which makes running Zephrys even better.
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Dad, husband, gamer, fueled by coffee.
Currently playing Dragon Galakrond Priest, Dragon Galakrond Warrior and Highlander Dragon Hunter.
Though I agree about class identity I'm not sure overall.
Yes, zoolock e.g. can suddenly find healing for you, but you need to make sacrifices. Most decks like zoolock run duplicate cards because they are oppressive enough to work. When you start running zoolock with only singleton cards, I doubt the deck would still be good. The idea behind a singleton deck is that you make certain sacrifices in not running duplicate cards that fit your archetype.
But the idea of having it limited to your own class or neutral is something I could imagine happening in the future (though doubtfull). The idea of having Zephrys only work if you didn't have duplicates from the beginning sound a little stupid to me. I remember some Mill rogues who ran lots of dupes but still teched in a Reno Jackson just for the late game. Most people probably hate on it but it requires a different strategy in some cases which I think makes your gameplan a little different and add a little more dynamics to one's gameplay.
But this is just how I view it. Overall I really love Zephrys (Wild player alert) and though there may have been or still may be some cards that aren't always found when needed. It's a card that requires a little bit of thought about when to play. E.g. I've played a mage who coined out a Deathlord on turn 2, played Zephrys on 3 and cast inner fire on the deathlord, needless to say I lost this game. Frustrating yet very clever and a nice move on my opponent's behalf.
Though I agree about class identity I'm not sure overall.
Yes, zoolock e.g. can suddenly find healing for you, but you need to make sacrifices. Most decks like zoolock run duplicate cards because they are oppressive enough to work. When you start running zoolock with only singleton cards, I doubt the deck would still be good. The idea behind a singleton deck is that you make certain sacrifices in not running duplicate cards that fit your archetype.
But the idea of having it limited to your own class or neutral is something I could imagine happening in the future (though doubtfull). The idea of having Zephrys only work if you didn't have duplicates from the beginning sound a little stupid to me. I remember some Mill rogues who ran lots of dupes but still teched in a Reno Jackson just for the late game. Most people probably hate on it but it requires a different strategy in some cases which I think makes your gameplan a little different and add a little more dynamics to one's gameplay.
But this is just how I view it. Overall I really love Zephrys (Wild player alert) and though there may have been or still may be some cards that aren't always found when needed. It's a card that requires a little bit of thought about when to play. E.g. I've played a mage who coined out a Deathlord on turn 2, played Zephrys on 3 and cast inner fire on the deathlord, needless to say I lost this game. Frustrating yet very clever and a nice move on my opponent's behalf.
To be perfectly honest, you kind of contradicted yourself in this instance. Your idea of Zoolock not giving up their ability to 2 copies of their strongest cards is one I can get behind. But Zephrys' power is high enough to warrant inclusion without giving that up anyways, which was my original point. You also stated that exact point, in your example of some Mill Rogue players.
I really like Zephrys, but my gut tells me it'll be included in a lot of decks that do not run the singleton package. It should've been an extra support-card to re-awaken Highlander decks, and it did just that. For that, I'm very grateful. But now, seeing as it's a Neutral card, it just gets included in a lot of non-singleton decks.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Dad, husband, gamer, fueled by coffee.
Currently playing Dragon Galakrond Priest, Dragon Galakrond Warrior and Highlander Dragon Hunter.
Though I agree about class identity I'm not sure overall.
Yes, zoolock e.g. can suddenly find healing for you, but you need to make sacrifices. Most decks like zoolock run duplicate cards because they are oppressive enough to work. When you start running zoolock with only singleton cards, I doubt the deck would still be good. The idea behind a singleton deck is that you make certain sacrifices in not running duplicate cards that fit your archetype.
But the idea of having it limited to your own class or neutral is something I could imagine happening in the future (though doubtfull). The idea of having Zephrys only work if you didn't have duplicates from the beginning sound a little stupid to me. I remember some Mill rogues who ran lots of dupes but still teched in a Reno Jackson just for the late game. Most people probably hate on it but it requires a different strategy in some cases which I think makes your gameplan a little different and add a little more dynamics to one's gameplay.
But this is just how I view it. Overall I really love Zephrys (Wild player alert) and though there may have been or still may be some cards that aren't always found when needed. It's a card that requires a little bit of thought about when to play. E.g. I've played a mage who coined out a Deathlord on turn 2, played Zephrys on 3 and cast inner fire on the deathlord, needless to say I lost this game. Frustrating yet very clever and a nice move on my opponent's behalf.
To be perfectly honest, you kind of contradicted yourself in this instance. Your idea of Zoolock not giving up their ability to 2 copies of their strongest cards is one I can get behind. But Zephrys' power is high enough to warrant inclusion without giving that up anyways, which was my original point. You also stated that exact point, in your example of some Mill Rogue players.
I really like Zephrys, but my gut tells me it'll be included in a lot of decks that do not run the singleton package. It should've been an extra support-card to re-awaken Highlander decks, and it did just that. For that, I'm very grateful. But now, seeing as it's a Neutral card, it just gets included in a lot of non-singleton decks.
I am fairly certain the intent of the card was that exactly. Give highlander decks a boost. Obviously the card is powerful. Anyone who plays with the card enough finds that out quickly enough. And because it's so obvious, decks that are non highlander want a piece of that power. The card was not designed to be an auto include in every deck regardless of the builds.
I remember when Reno (the original) decks tried to include doubles of specific cards for consistency. But you cannot risk doing that when facing aggro. IF you absolutely need a heal on turn 6, you cannot risk having a duplicate in your deck. This card is far more powerful than the original Reno.
You play it whenever you need it. It gives potential tempo swings. Board clears. Single target removal. Wide board finisher cards. Mana Ramp and so forth. That flexibility is so crazy that it's a foregone conclusion... OF COURSE every deck is going to start including it.
This not only ruins the intent of the card, but also class identity for all classes now. A well designed fun card that is being used outside the original design space.
Zephrys the Great or shall I call this card Zephrys the Rigged?
Because that's what it is. Blizzard is manipulating gameplay through AI by default favoritism as to deny skill and stategy to be decisive in outcome.
Over the years there has been steadily doubt if Blizzard through AI is rigging the game in favor of a marketing based target audience. Just search for 'rigged' or 'rigging' to find countless threads on the topic.
There has never been proof as Blizzard doesn't open up for an independent investigation on the matter.
But now undoubtly proven the possibility that it can be done. It should count as 'fun' the increasing influence of AI and increased randomness through cards like Tess Greymane, Dr. Boom. Mad Genius, Shudderwock, Tip the Scales, Puzzle Box of Yogg-Seron and the like, for which there can never skill or strategy based outcome influence. No fun here.
Skill or glorified mindlessness? Marketing says the latter. Ethics say former. Process of being regarded as dumb f*cks through cards like Zephrys. Way to go. In the end target audience can be regarded as such.
Zepfrys the Great or shall I call this card Zepfrys the Rigged?
Because that's what it is. Blizzard is manipulating gameplay through AI by default favoritism as to deny skill and stategy to be decisive in outcome.
Over the years there has been steadily doubt if Blizzard through IA is rigging the game in favor of a marketing based target audience. Just search for 'rigged' or 'rigging' to find countless threads on the topic.
There has never been proof as Blizzard doesn't open up for an independent investigation on the matter.
But now undoubtly proven the possibility that it can be done. It should count as 'fun' the increasing influence of IA and increased randomness through cards like Tess Greymane, Dr. Boom. Mad Genius, Shudderwock, Tip the Scales, Puzzle Box of Yogg-Seron and the like, for which there can never skill or strategy based outcome influence. No fun here.
Skill or glorified mindlessness? Marketing says the latter. Ethics say former. Process of being regarded as dumb f*cks through cards like Zepfrys. Way to go. In the end target audience can be regarded as such.
That flexibility is so crazy that it's a foregone conclusion... OF COURSE every deck is going to start including it.
I am doubtful that this will be the case. However, even if it does occur that every single deck plays this card, I don't think it will matter for most decks.
Hypothetically, let's say that every aggro deck starts to include this as a hail mary of sorts, as the OP suggests. It's only effective so late into the game that it's impact should be fairly negligible.
If you're a control deck against an aggro deck, you've won or lost long before Zeph is active. If you can't survive one tempo switch, what the fuck were you doing all of the turns after you stabilized?
If you're control vs. control these kind of swings are the bread and butter of control matchups. It might suck a little, but it's certainly not anything we aren't used to. It's not unreasonable to ask someone to be prepared for it in these instances.
There are the strange non-highlander decks where Zeph works, but I think those are examples of good uses of the card. It's cool that Myra's can use Zeph, and that Druid draws so quickly that Zeph is active, or that Tip the Scales thins your deck so greatly that Zeph is playable early in the game. Those are neat, smart uses for the card.
Sure, maybe we see every deck include Zeph at some point. But most the times, it'll be Bloodfen Raptor. I think overtime, people will realize that's not worth it in most instances.
That flexibility is so crazy that it's a foregone conclusion... OF COURSE every deck is going to start including it.
I am doubtful that this will be the case. However, even if it does occur that every single deck plays this card, I don't think it will matter for most decks.
Hypothetically, let's say that every aggro deck starts to include this as a hail mary of sorts, as the OP suggests. It's only effective so late into the game that it's impact should be fairly negligible. If you're a control deck against an aggro deck, you've won or lost long before Zeph is active.
There are the strange non-highlander decks where Zeph works, but I think those are examples of good uses of the card. It's cool that Myra's can use Zeph, and that Druid draws so quickly that Zeph is active, or that Tip the Scales thins your deck so greatly that Zeph is playable early in the game. Those are neat, smart uses for the card.
Sure, maybe we see every deck include Zeph at some point. But most the times, it'll be Bloodfen Raptor. I think overtime, people will realize that's not worth it in most instances.
I hope so. The class identity thing is already being blurred and over time will only get worse if things don't change direction. This card, Zephrys does not help in this regard.
Zilliax is similar. It's in almost every single deck archetype. It heals. It has taunt. It's a free trade because of the divine shield. Oh, it's rush so it impacts the board immediately. And magnetize because why not. It is a must craft for everyone playing Hearthstone right now.
Should every class have access to healing, rush, magnetize, divine shield taunt minions? I have to say No. Absolutely not. But we do. And I think it really does weaken the class identity as well.
Siamat is similar. It's a removal card stuck on a minion. Give it rush and divine shield. You have a 7 mana 6 damage removal minion. For every class. And in some classes, the card gets even sillier because it has battlecry and its an elemental.
So even if Zeph ends up being more hype than not. There are far too many examples of Neutral cards being in almost every deck because of the sheer power level. Classes that should have some weaknesses do not. Just throw in the generic neutral card and you are covered.
There are lots of cards in standard rotation that defeat the games class identities. They are all from expansions that rotate into Wild at the end of each year including Zephrys.
Before I begin with what I want to be the premise of a healthy discussion about an extremely popular card, I want to get rid of a few assumptions one might make about this thread. Firstly, I love Zephrys the Great. I think it's a fun card to play with, and I applaud Blizzard and Team 5 for making such a daring move in design and mechanics. Secondly, I don't think it's too strong, I'm not salty about losing to Zephrys, ever, and I don't think it needs changing, yet.
But, and this is the part I want to discuss with one another, there's one inherent flaw about the design of such a card: it utterly defeats class identity and a class' weaknesses and strengths. Not too long ago, Blizzard opened up a book about the way they view class identity and how they think one class should be extremely good at a certain thing (Warlock should flood and draw), while being extremely bad at another (Warlock has limited access to healing and Taunts). Thus, Warlock can function extremely well in a certain environment, Zoolock being the best example.
A card like Zephrys changes that, in my opinion, even in a monumental way. Suddenly, all classes have access to ALL Basic and Classic cards of all classes. Not too big of a deal, right? Well, I beg to differ. What used to be a big problem for a certain class, becomes not such a big problem for said class. Need AoE as Hunter? No problem, you can use Brawl or Twisting Nether. Need burst damage as Warrior on a full board? No problem, you can have a Savage Roar or Bloodlust.
"But you can only use Zephrys if you run a Highlander deck!" While true, I would like anyone saying that to look at the current decklists of the top-performing decks, say, the ones in rank 5 to Legend. There are already numerous decks that have good draw, and just run Zephrys anyway, because the card is thát good. Suddenly, there are Aggro Warriors and Tempo Quest Druids that don't have ANY resemblance of being a Highlander deck, but still run Zephrys. And I think that part is just getting started. And I think it's thát part that is problematic.
Now, again, I think Zephrys is a fun card, and it makes matches fun to play and watch. But if you, as a developer, make a statement about the importance of class identity, Zephrys is an illogical design decision. It truly already reminds me of how powerful Sylvanas was in the early days. Luckily, Zephrys will rotate, but I see it becoming the must-include card of the following year of Hearthstone. It's a Hail-Mary card, and while it's fun, it can also sometimes feel extremely unfair.
What are your opinions on Zephrys? Am I right to question its place in the grand scheme of things, or should I not be worried about how it's going to develop? Should we be worried about what this means in terms of the contents of the Basic and Classic cards? Will more of them be nerfed because a card like Zephrys now gives access to these cards?
Dad, husband, gamer, fueled by coffee.
Currently playing Dragon Galakrond Priest, Dragon Galakrond Warrior and Highlander Dragon Hunter.
This is why it's okay. And it's less ubiquitous than something like Lich King. And probably less harmful to the game than something like Keleseth.
Agree. Why not limit the card pool to neutral and your class only?
I think we can all agree that Keleseth was an abomination, especially in Rogue.
Your comparison to the Lich King is a good one; to me, that card is a perfect example as to how the process of design should go. However, Lich King had clear downsides to it, when compared to Zephrys. Half of the cards where mostly bad in most situations, and it was at random. Apart from that, it was an 8-mana card. Zephrys lets you choose, and with the constant tweaking of the card, its outcomes will only get better.
Dad, husband, gamer, fueled by coffee.
Currently playing Dragon Galakrond Priest, Dragon Galakrond Warrior and Highlander Dragon Hunter.
I disagree. Yes, sometimes the lich cards were bad, but Lich King was always an 8-mana, 8/8, taunt that drew a card.
In non-highlander decks, you aren't playing Zeph on curve and getting his effect. Even though the effect is much better, you are playing it at the very end of the game. Which means you've been holding a dead card in your hand for a very long time. It's not entirely unlike Nomi in that respect.
Where Lich King pretty much fit in everything, I think it's likely that non-Highlander decks playing Zeph will have to be pretty unique. Not every deck has Myra's or Tip the Scales to activate Zeph easily. For example, you aren't putting this in non-highlander Aggro Warrior (probably????).
I agree that class identity SHOULD be one of the most important things preserved in Hearthstone. Otherwise, why have 9 classes in the first place? Why even print cards that give classes 2 or more ways to play that class? Like Burn/Tempo Mage or Control Mage.
Zephrys does break this idea and I don't like the card for that purpose. But like you, I love the overall design of the card, but it does present a few problems as players find ways to put this card in decks it was never meant to be played in.
The ability for Zoo to go and grab a Savage Roar is so potentially unbalancing, it might need to discussed and find out or if it's possible to balance Zephrys somehow.
Even Control Warrior can play Zephrys easily enough. How? Well, they play enough 'tutor' cards and card draw that it's not that hard to meet the conditions. Do we really want Control Warrior having access to tools they shouldn't have in a non Highlander deck?
Much like many people are going back to Classic WOW and playing with vanilla stuff, maybe we need some sort of reset for Hearthstone. Or a new design team. Or something to change.
Lean into the class flaws and lean into the strengths. If Warrior is about taunt and weapons. Then lean into it. Give them a minion that has Taunt AND equips a weapon. But DON'T give them minions that can kill minions with simple battlecry effects. Being able to do 10 damage to any minion is far too powerful. Doing 5 damage on turn 5 can clear a board of non-mechs and win the game outright. Then you add rush to these minions and it's no longer possible to keep a board against Warrior late game.
Druid is supposed to be bad at big minion removal with spells. They can trade minions instead, but they no longer have the ability to remove a minion with a simple spell unless it has low health. They were also supposed to be the Ramp class. Lean into both of these flaws and strengths. Create more cards that ramp, even if they are conditional. Allow Druids to cheat the curve by giving up early tempo and card quality and deck flexibility. Where are the Ramp cards? Where are the 10 mana minion payoffs? You know which class should have 'OMEGA' cards? That's right Druid. Druid because they were supposed to ramp to 10 and therefore abuse the 10 mana Omega effects.
Rogue is weak against wide boards and aggro decks in general. They got rid of Vanish, but kept the effect. Vanish should have been give ALL of your minions Stealth. That feels more Rogue like.
well there is conceal for rogue oh wait it got hall of famed, looks like blizzard doesnt know what is class identity
Lich King was strong and flexible, there's no denying that, nor was it my intent to come over as someone who questioned his strength. But the randomness of his outcomes was exactly what was so fair about it. Lich King did not count as a win-condition, Zephrys can. Lich King did not count as a card that can save your behind, Zephrys can. Lich King was extremely strong, but it felt more fair. Same as Zilliax, for example.
And there are already multiple decks that do NOT run one-offs, but still include Zephrys. Zoolock can run it, Quest Druid runs it, and I wouldn't be surprised if some future iteration of Big Spell Mage runs it. He works extremely well in Control decks, or decks that like to draw. I'm also expecting Octosari to be used more, in tempo decks mostly, which makes running Zephrys even better.
Dad, husband, gamer, fueled by coffee.
Currently playing Dragon Galakrond Priest, Dragon Galakrond Warrior and Highlander Dragon Hunter.
then they should make zephrys only work on highlander decks like if your deck din't started as one of each card, zephrys wouln't work
Though I agree about class identity I'm not sure overall.
Yes, zoolock e.g. can suddenly find healing for you, but you need to make sacrifices. Most decks like zoolock run duplicate cards because they are oppressive enough to work. When you start running zoolock with only singleton cards, I doubt the deck would still be good. The idea behind a singleton deck is that you make certain sacrifices in not running duplicate cards that fit your archetype.
But the idea of having it limited to your own class or neutral is something I could imagine happening in the future (though doubtfull). The idea of having Zephrys only work if you didn't have duplicates from the beginning sound a little stupid to me. I remember some Mill rogues who ran lots of dupes but still teched in a Reno Jackson just for the late game. Most people probably hate on it but it requires a different strategy in some cases which I think makes your gameplan a little different and add a little more dynamics to one's gameplay.
But this is just how I view it. Overall I really love Zephrys (Wild player alert) and though there may have been or still may be some cards that aren't always found when needed. It's a card that requires a little bit of thought about when to play. E.g. I've played a mage who coined out a Deathlord on turn 2, played Zephrys on 3 and cast inner fire on the deathlord, needless to say I lost this game. Frustrating yet very clever and a nice move on my opponent's behalf.
To be perfectly honest, you kind of contradicted yourself in this instance. Your idea of Zoolock not giving up their ability to 2 copies of their strongest cards is one I can get behind. But Zephrys' power is high enough to warrant inclusion without giving that up anyways, which was my original point. You also stated that exact point, in your example of some Mill Rogue players.
I really like Zephrys, but my gut tells me it'll be included in a lot of decks that do not run the singleton package. It should've been an extra support-card to re-awaken Highlander decks, and it did just that. For that, I'm very grateful. But now, seeing as it's a Neutral card, it just gets included in a lot of non-singleton decks.
Dad, husband, gamer, fueled by coffee.
Currently playing Dragon Galakrond Priest, Dragon Galakrond Warrior and Highlander Dragon Hunter.
I am fairly certain the intent of the card was that exactly. Give highlander decks a boost. Obviously the card is powerful. Anyone who plays with the card enough finds that out quickly enough. And because it's so obvious, decks that are non highlander want a piece of that power. The card was not designed to be an auto include in every deck regardless of the builds.
I remember when Reno (the original) decks tried to include doubles of specific cards for consistency. But you cannot risk doing that when facing aggro. IF you absolutely need a heal on turn 6, you cannot risk having a duplicate in your deck. This card is far more powerful than the original Reno.
You play it whenever you need it. It gives potential tempo swings. Board clears. Single target removal. Wide board finisher cards. Mana Ramp and so forth. That flexibility is so crazy that it's a foregone conclusion... OF COURSE every deck is going to start including it.
This not only ruins the intent of the card, but also class identity for all classes now. A well designed fun card that is being used outside the original design space.
You can’t play around the card. Its broken and it’s stupid, should be wild only,
Zephrys the Great or shall I call this card Zephrys the Rigged?
Because that's what it is. Blizzard is manipulating gameplay through AI by default favoritism as to deny skill and stategy to be decisive in outcome.
Over the years there has been steadily doubt if Blizzard through AI is rigging the game in favor of a marketing based target audience. Just search for 'rigged' or 'rigging' to find countless threads on the topic.
There has never been proof as Blizzard doesn't open up for an independent investigation on the matter.
But now undoubtly proven the possibility that it can be done. It should count as 'fun' the increasing influence of AI and increased randomness through cards like Tess Greymane, Dr. Boom. Mad Genius, Shudderwock, Tip the Scales, Puzzle Box of Yogg-Seron and the like, for which there can never skill or strategy based outcome influence. No fun here.
Skill or glorified mindlessness? Marketing says the latter. Ethics say former. Process of being regarded as dumb f*cks through cards like Zephrys. Way to go. In the end target audience can be regarded as such.
We make our world significant through the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.
Always the same BS from this rig tard.
I am doubtful that this will be the case. However, even if it does occur that every single deck plays this card, I don't think it will matter for most decks.
Hypothetically, let's say that every aggro deck starts to include this as a hail mary of sorts, as the OP suggests. It's only effective so late into the game that it's impact should be fairly negligible.
If you're a control deck against an aggro deck, you've won or lost long before Zeph is active. If you can't survive one tempo switch, what the fuck were you doing all of the turns after you stabilized?
If you're control vs. control these kind of swings are the bread and butter of control matchups. It might suck a little, but it's certainly not anything we aren't used to. It's not unreasonable to ask someone to be prepared for it in these instances.
There are the strange non-highlander decks where Zeph works, but I think those are examples of good uses of the card. It's cool that Myra's can use Zeph, and that Druid draws so quickly that Zeph is active, or that Tip the Scales thins your deck so greatly that Zeph is playable early in the game. Those are neat, smart uses for the card.
Sure, maybe we see every deck include Zeph at some point. But most the times, it'll be Bloodfen Raptor. I think overtime, people will realize that's not worth it in most instances.
I hope so. The class identity thing is already being blurred and over time will only get worse if things don't change direction. This card, Zephrys does not help in this regard.
Zilliax is similar. It's in almost every single deck archetype. It heals. It has taunt. It's a free trade because of the divine shield. Oh, it's rush so it impacts the board immediately. And magnetize because why not. It is a must craft for everyone playing Hearthstone right now.
Should every class have access to healing, rush, magnetize, divine shield taunt minions? I have to say No. Absolutely not. But we do. And I think it really does weaken the class identity as well.
Siamat is similar. It's a removal card stuck on a minion. Give it rush and divine shield. You have a 7 mana 6 damage removal minion. For every class. And in some classes, the card gets even sillier because it has battlecry and its an elemental.
So even if Zeph ends up being more hype than not. There are far too many examples of Neutral cards being in almost every deck because of the sheer power level. Classes that should have some weaknesses do not. Just throw in the generic neutral card and you are covered.
Voted Trump instead of Hillary. Watching Fox rather than CNN? If so, comment is perfectly understandable.
We make our world significant through the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.
There are lots of cards in standard rotation that defeat the games class identities. They are all from expansions that rotate into Wild at the end of each year including Zephrys.
Zephyris needs always a highlander deck behind. The class idendity is destroyed after every expansion by so many cards, Zephrys is the last problem.