[EDIT: The comments did get me thinking about something specific: This card could be quite valuable as a Turn 5 play. Sure, you might not be able to get the ability off, but Turn 5 limits your opponent's mana to basically just the removal/silence (except warrior- srsly hate execute) and 1 other card. So, the difference that this card makes on Turn 5 might be greater than the difference it makes on Turn 7. But that still might not be as big of a difference as, say, Sludge Belcher, so I'm not completely changed but I am reconsidering it's value. I'd still like to hear more about what people think about this card as a Turn 7 play. That's where I think the bulk of my argument stems.]
FOREWARNING: There will be a TL;DR near the bottom.
I've seen plenty of videos that have shown Thunder Bluff Valiant (TBV for short) as something necessary to make the new Shaman decks work. But I think the card is actually really slow and weak. I just don't know that it's worth it, compared to options like Bloodlust, Sludge Belcher, Doomhammer, Azure Drake, Loatheb, or even Frostwolf Warlord.
Firstly, playing him on turn 5 (4 with a coin) is reasonable based on his stats (to an extent). But, other plays, such as Sludge Belcher, Azure Drake, or Loatheb, would provide a more instant benefit in the long run, while providing the same distraction when it comes to removal or silences that your opponent might have. They also allow for bigger plays the following turn if they can pull off their effects efficiently (basically, protecting your totems).
Now, if you're able to play TBV AND hero power for the bonus, you're making a 7-mana play. In comparison to other plays available at that time that are aggressive, this seems weak at best. Take a Patron-Warsong combo, or Innervate-Force of Nature-Savage Roar, they are much more aggressive and can even be used as board clearers. Defensive plays, like Flamestrike or Equality Consecrate, are extremely powerful, but more importantly, extremely effective against things with 2 health. Totems by nature are small, and buffing their attack by 2 means turning a 0/2 creature into a 2/2 creature. When that only applies to a couple of totems, you're not getting much value out of any of the cards that can be so easily removed.
To get great value out of TBV, you'd have to have him out with at least 3 totems on board that can attack (difficult to do against smart players), and/or make him stick for 2 turns (also difficult to do against smart players). But, at that point, I feel like you're making more weak plays than strong ones. Something like Bloodlust + Flametongue Totem would be much stronger, making better trades, getting rid of bigger threats, or even get you lethal. Or Loatheb and Flametongue to take control of the board with strong trades and prevent board-clearing spells next turn.
I think the last thing that anyone could give TBV credit for is taking up some sort of removal or silence. But other 5-drops like Belcher and Azure Drake do the same. More importantly, TBV can be stopped by removing totems from the board. If you can control the role of totems as turns go by (which happens often and easily), TBV is also kind of dead in it's tracks. The optional 5-drops I brought up earlier, however, are more self-reliant, while still providing strong and effective support for the rest of the deck.
TL;DR
Thunder Bluff Valiant sucks.
1. Compared to options available to Shaman for the same mana cost (i.e. Blecher, Loatheb, Azure Drake, etc.), it's slow/ineffective.
1a. Compared to options available to Shaman for the 7-mana cost to use TBV's effect (i.e. Loatheb/Bloodlust+Flametongue, Dr. Boom, etc.), it's slow/ineffective/weak.
2. Compared to other plays viable in the same timeframe as a response (i.e. Flamestrike, Patron-Warsong combos, Equality-Consecrate, etc.), it's vulnerable.
3. To get good value out of it, you have to already be ahead.
In the end, it just seems like Thunder Bluff Valiant is a "win-more" card, and more than 1 in a deck seems like a bad idea.
It's kind of like a 5 mana 3/6 "better than taunt." I don't think it's too slow because when left unattended it snowballs out of control which means they HAVE to kill it. Plus you can always use Defender of Argus for ACTUAL taunts.
He's good because he can power up the 0 attack minions that you have laying around on your board. Sure, he's not ideal at 5 mana but you don't play him at 5 mana. Shamans can get totems out pretty easily and actually use other totems like Flametongue Totem and Mana Tide Totem, but you don't play this guy on only one totem. It's like a permanent Savage Roar or something.
Except he won't if you can clear totems, which is actually really easy for any class. And then he's an easy thing to remove as well. And with only 3 attack, he won't be taking any real 6 or 7 drops with him.
its bad in aggro meta, if the meta ever slows down even slightly this guy + justicar the turn before wrecks as long as you can keep the board clear up until that point. Being able to put a 2/2 taunt out every turn is amazing, and if you can get one to stick, grabbing a healing totem in there is even better.
Again, anything else you can play at higher mana costs just seem like better plays. And although Shamans can get totems out easily doesn't mean they can sustain them. Any good player will use their 1 or 2 or even 3 drops to clear totems from the board. Weapons are also used often to clear Totems. Yes, there are times when you can have, say, 3 totems on the board to buff with TBV, but you still don't buff their health, and if there's 1 Sledge Belcher, it'll take all 3 to clear it. Again, a good player wouldn't let you have 3 totems on the board often, at least not without a response. And any AoE removal clears them anyways.
It's not AT ALL like a Savage Roar. If I have 4 minions on board, and only 1 is a Totem because my opponents are playing smart, Savage Roar would've given me 10 total bonus to my damage. TBV, for 7 mana (more than twice the cost), would provide 2 usable bits of damage, and 5 unsable damage this turn (his attack and the added attack of the summoned Totem). Bump that up to 2 or 3 Totems and you'd still only get like 4 or 6 usable damage on minions that can be wiped out by pretty much everything except Fan of Knives.
There are better 5 drops but i consider this a 7 drop (which, there are better 7 drops). I have been doing really well with it but don't absolutely need it to win. Most of the time the opponent is removing my totems because they now know how annoying they can be if left on the board. There have been many times when i have 2 TBV in hand and drop one on turn 5 only to have it focused hard and removed and I still have 1 more. The most important thing for me is this card is so fun and opens up possibilities. Tuskarr is very awesome and fortunately have been getting Totem Golem's from it pretty often. When I don't it's Vitality Totem which is still good. I feel like such a Druid lately though with my 2 Bloodlust (i feel bad sometimes for doing so much damage in 1 turn but the game is almost certainly over anyways [Frothing Ber-jerker]). All in all I'm loving this fun Shaman deck. TBV is not a requirement but it adds to "fun-value" which is what I seek. Hell, run one if two seems crazy. It will be removed ;)
I agree that Tuskarr is fantastic. Getting Golem, Vitality, Flametongue, immediately turns him into a 2 for 1. But Mana Tide turns him into a 3 for 1. It's fantastic.
I like to think of Thunder Bluff as a taunt that can win you games if your opponent can't deal with it fast enough. You shouldn't play him against aggro unless your opponent is out of steam imo.
Yeah, this I'm sure of! In Arena, fantastic. It is an extremely effective card there. But I was talking more about constructed because I've been trying to climb ladder more recently (I usually stick to Arena).
Yeah, this I'm sure of! In Arena, fantastic. It is an extremely effective card there. But I was talking more about constructed because I've been trying to climb ladder more recently (I usually stick to Arena).
If you're playing a Totem-Shaman with bloodlust, I'd definitely at least recommend one.
That's the deck I've been using, but It's been changing often. I started with Trump's but removed 2 Azure Drake's in favor of a Mana Tide (provides sometimes better draw and has the Totem synergy with the deck) and an Al'Akir (just something I've been testing out, although I kind of regret this decision).
I also removed the TBV's for a Bloodlust and a Loatheb. I'm thinking of change Al'Akir for another Bloodlust, just because it's an easy way of winning on turn 6 or 7 if you've got board control.
Again, this is all subject to change.This thread was partially done because of my confusion to the persistence of TBV even though I haven't seen it be "successful" now that people have figured out how it works. It reminds me a lot of Mill Rogue, where everyone ranted and raved about it at first, but then once people got the hang of it, the deck just fell out of the meta quickly.
I'd say I've played more Shaman than anything since TGT because I love the new cards. Personally I've been running 2 of these because:
A. It's a must removal or the opponent is in trouble. B. I'm also running The Mistcaller, which often has allowed Thunder Bluff Valiant to be a 4/7 with buff stats.
But I can honestly say I've come back from behind with this card so I disagree with the "win-more" argument above. Also with the new toys Shaman has it's pretty rare not to have at least 1 totem on the board at any point.
Personally I love this card. One of my favorite in TGT.
Yeah, I've played pretty much Shaman exclusively since TGT because I love Shaman as a class. But once I reached Rank 9, it was hell. And TBV specifically was just not consistent enough for my liking. I was never able to play it on more than 2 Totems until I fell back to rank 11. That's what started my doubts on the card, really.
[EDIT: The comments did get me thinking about something specific: This card could be quite valuable as a Turn 5 play. Sure, you might not be able to get the ability off, but Turn 5 limits your opponent's mana to basically just the removal/silence (except warrior- srsly hate execute) and 1 other card. So, the difference that this card makes on Turn 5 might be greater than the difference it makes on Turn 7. But that still might not be as big of a difference as, say, Sludge Belcher, so I'm not completely changed but I am reconsidering it's value. I'd still like to hear more about what people think about this card as a Turn 7 play. That's where I think the bulk of my argument stems.]
FOREWARNING: There will be a TL;DR near the bottom.
I've seen plenty of videos that have shown Thunder Bluff Valiant (TBV for short) as something necessary to make the new Shaman decks work. But I think the card is actually really slow and weak. I just don't know that it's worth it, compared to options like Bloodlust, Sludge Belcher, Doomhammer, Azure Drake, Loatheb, or even Frostwolf Warlord.
Firstly, playing him on turn 5 (4 with a coin) is reasonable based on his stats (to an extent). But, other plays, such as Sludge Belcher, Azure Drake, or Loatheb, would provide a more instant benefit in the long run, while providing the same distraction when it comes to removal or silences that your opponent might have. They also allow for bigger plays the following turn if they can pull off their effects efficiently (basically, protecting your totems).
Now, if you're able to play TBV AND hero power for the bonus, you're making a 7-mana play. In comparison to other plays available at that time that are aggressive, this seems weak at best. Take a Patron-Warsong combo, or Innervate-Force of Nature-Savage Roar, they are much more aggressive and can even be used as board clearers. Defensive plays, like Flamestrike or Equality Consecrate, are extremely powerful, but more importantly, extremely effective against things with 2 health. Totems by nature are small, and buffing their attack by 2 means turning a 0/2 creature into a 2/2 creature. When that only applies to a couple of totems, you're not getting much value out of any of the cards that can be so easily removed.
To get great value out of TBV, you'd have to have him out with at least 3 totems on board that can attack (difficult to do against smart players), and/or make him stick for 2 turns (also difficult to do against smart players). But, at that point, I feel like you're making more weak plays than strong ones. Something like Bloodlust + Flametongue Totem would be much stronger, making better trades, getting rid of bigger threats, or even get you lethal. Or Loatheb and Flametongue to take control of the board with strong trades and prevent board-clearing spells next turn.
I think the last thing that anyone could give TBV credit for is taking up some sort of removal or silence. But other 5-drops like Belcher and Azure Drake do the same. More importantly, TBV can be stopped by removing totems from the board. If you can control the role of totems as turns go by (which happens often and easily), TBV is also kind of dead in it's tracks. The optional 5-drops I brought up earlier, however, are more self-reliant, while still providing strong and effective support for the rest of the deck.
TL;DR
Thunder Bluff Valiant sucks.
1. Compared to options available to Shaman for the same mana cost (i.e. Blecher, Loatheb, Azure Drake, etc.), it's slow/ineffective.
1a. Compared to options available to Shaman for the 7-mana cost to use TBV's effect (i.e. Loatheb/Bloodlust+Flametongue, Dr. Boom, etc.), it's slow/ineffective/weak.
2. Compared to other plays viable in the same timeframe as a response (i.e. Flamestrike, Patron-Warsong combos, Equality-Consecrate, etc.), it's vulnerable.
3. To get good value out of it, you have to already be ahead.
In the end, it just seems like Thunder Bluff Valiant is a "win-more" card, and more than 1 in a deck seems like a bad idea.
Anyone else feel the same?
It's kind of like a 5 mana 3/6 "better than taunt." I don't think it's too slow because when left unattended it snowballs out of control which means they HAVE to kill it. Plus you can always use Defender of Argus for ACTUAL taunts.
Um not really but I do agree it only seems to work maybe 1 out of 5 games for me.
k.
He's good because he can power up the 0 attack minions that you have laying around on your board. Sure, he's not ideal at 5 mana but you don't play him at 5 mana. Shamans can get totems out pretty easily and actually use other totems like Flametongue Totem and Mana Tide Totem, but you don't play this guy on only one totem. It's like a permanent Savage Roar or something.
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Except he won't if you can clear totems, which is actually really easy for any class. And then he's an easy thing to remove as well. And with only 3 attack, he won't be taking any real 6 or 7 drops with him.
He's a win more card. If you're ahead he helps you get more ahead. Not bad, not great. It's okay. Like most TGT cards it's a bit slow.
its bad in aggro meta, if the meta ever slows down even slightly this guy + justicar the turn before wrecks as long as you can keep the board clear up until that point. Being able to put a 2/2 taunt out every turn is amazing, and if you can get one to stick, grabbing a healing totem in there is even better.
Again, anything else you can play at higher mana costs just seem like better plays. And although Shamans can get totems out easily doesn't mean they can sustain them. Any good player will use their 1 or 2 or even 3 drops to clear totems from the board. Weapons are also used often to clear Totems. Yes, there are times when you can have, say, 3 totems on the board to buff with TBV, but you still don't buff their health, and if there's 1 Sledge Belcher, it'll take all 3 to clear it. Again, a good player wouldn't let you have 3 totems on the board often, at least not without a response. And any AoE removal clears them anyways.
It's not AT ALL like a Savage Roar. If I have 4 minions on board, and only 1 is a Totem because my opponents are playing smart, Savage Roar would've given me 10 total bonus to my damage. TBV, for 7 mana (more than twice the cost), would provide 2 usable bits of damage, and 5 unsable damage this turn (his attack and the added attack of the summoned Totem). Bump that up to 2 or 3 Totems and you'd still only get like 4 or 6 usable damage on minions that can be wiped out by pretty much everything except Fan of Knives.
There are better 5 drops but i consider this a 7 drop (which, there are better 7 drops). I have been doing really well with it but don't absolutely need it to win. Most of the time the opponent is removing my totems because they now know how annoying they can be if left on the board. There have been many times when i have 2 TBV in hand and drop one on turn 5 only to have it focused hard and removed and I still have 1 more. The most important thing for me is this card is so fun and opens up possibilities. Tuskarr is very awesome and fortunately have been getting Totem Golem's from it pretty often. When I don't it's Vitality Totem which is still good. I feel like such a Druid lately though with my 2 Bloodlust (i feel bad sometimes for doing so much damage in 1 turn but the game is almost certainly over anyways [Frothing Ber-jerker]). All in all I'm loving this fun Shaman deck. TBV is not a requirement but it adds to "fun-value" which is what I seek. Hell, run one if two seems crazy. It will be removed ;)
If he sucks soo much then dont play him
I agree that Tuskarr is fantastic. Getting Golem, Vitality, Flametongue, immediately turns him into a 2 for 1. But Mana Tide turns him into a 3 for 1. It's fantastic.
Thanks for the advice! Although, this was more to ask for other peoples' opinions to make comparisons to my own! But, thanks, again.
I like to think of Thunder Bluff as a taunt that can win you games if your opponent can't deal with it fast enough. You shouldn't play him against aggro unless your opponent is out of steam imo.
I'm currently trying with 0, and more sticky minions, for a Bloodlust finale. But 1 does seem like the right way to go.
Yeah, this I'm sure of! In Arena, fantastic. It is an extremely effective card there. But I was talking more about constructed because I've been trying to climb ladder more recently (I usually stick to Arena).
If you're playing a Totem-Shaman with bloodlust, I'd definitely at least recommend one.
Btw please show up the deck you're using.
I'm using just the one at the moment
That's the deck I've been using, but It's been changing often. I started with Trump's but removed 2 Azure Drake's in favor of a Mana Tide (provides sometimes better draw and has the Totem synergy with the deck) and an Al'Akir (just something I've been testing out, although I kind of regret this decision).
I also removed the TBV's for a Bloodlust and a Loatheb. I'm thinking of change Al'Akir for another Bloodlust, just because it's an easy way of winning on turn 6 or 7 if you've got board control.
Again, this is all subject to change.This thread was partially done because of my confusion to the persistence of TBV even though I haven't seen it be "successful" now that people have figured out how it works. It reminds me a lot of Mill Rogue, where everyone ranted and raved about it at first, but then once people got the hang of it, the deck just fell out of the meta quickly.
I'd say I've played more Shaman than anything since TGT because I love the new cards. Personally I've been running 2 of these because:
A. It's a must removal or the opponent is in trouble.
B. I'm also running The Mistcaller, which often has allowed Thunder Bluff Valiant to be a 4/7 with buff stats.
But I can honestly say I've come back from behind with this card so I disagree with the "win-more" argument above. Also with the new toys Shaman has it's pretty rare not to have at least 1 totem on the board at any point.
Personally I love this card. One of my favorite in TGT.
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Yeah, I've played pretty much Shaman exclusively since TGT because I love Shaman as a class. But once I reached Rank 9, it was hell. And TBV specifically was just not consistent enough for my liking. I was never able to play it on more than 2 Totems until I fell back to rank 11. That's what started my doubts on the card, really.
Whereas Bloodlust: