I played the same deck from Rank 25 at the start of last season all the way up to level 61 Legendary now, only adjusting a couple of slots along the way to adapt to metagame changes. The Chillwind Yetis were my flexible slots, sometimes coming out for Ysera (whenever I thought there were more Druids than usual), a second Big Game Hunter (for Giants), and Sunwalker (for Zoo). I found the double Yeti to be the most successful all round though. Ysera was the most recent card to be cut from the deck. I was always disappointed when I drew her early in the game, and late game it rarely seemed worth spending a whole turn playing her. That kind of investment can too easily backfire if your opponent can efficiently remove her. Obviously there were games where she was amazing, providing lots of card advantage, particularly in the Druid mirror matches where they don't have good ways of getting rid of her. But replacing her with the second Yeti made my early and mid-game a lot smoother. The other problem with Ysera is that for the same reason that it's great in the mirror match because Druids don't have great spot removal, it makes my opponent's Faceless Manipulators (and sometimes Sylvanas Windrunner) really hard for me to deal with.
I call this a Big Ramp deck because the mana curve is weighted so heavily towards big minions. I don't really play any 1 to 3-drops. (Big Game Hunter doesn't count because you never play it on turn 3. Same with Bloodmage Thalnos. Sometimes Acidic Swamp Ooze will come out early, but I usually hold onto it against decks that play weapons and mulligan it against decks that don't.) If you want to compare it with what I call Fast Ramp, check out Dreadmaker's list, with Harvest Golems and Earthen Ring Farseers. The mana curve looks horrible on paper, but works really well unless you get a really unlucky draw. The deck is designed to have a higher density of quality cards than my opponent in every matchup. Against Aggro I have plenty of big taunts and sweepers, and against Mid-range and Control I just have bigger minions and more of them. Long games usually reach a point where my opponent starts running out of steam, but I'm still dropping heavy hitters every turn. Unlike most Druid decks, I don't play Force of Nature or Savage Roar, because I don't think they have enough impact on the board on their own. They're great together, but unless you get the combo I don't think they do enough. Likewise, I don't play Ancient Watchers or any way to give things taunt like Defender of Argus or Sunfury Protector. The Watchers are terrible on their own, and so many of my minions have taunt anyway that I don't want to run the taunt-givers. (I have 8 taunts, including the 2 Faceless Manipulators.) I also think it's a waste of a Keeper of the Grove if you silence your Watchers, because the Keepers are so useful against the opponent's minions. That makes my deck similar to Nuba's list. (Although I built mine independently and have 9 cards different than him.)
I try to mulligan into a Wild Growth and Innervates against every opponent. Some other cards I keep in certain matchups, like Keeper of the Grove against Zoo, Faceless Manipulator and Big Game Hunter against Giants, and Cairne Bloodhoof and sometimes Ancient of Lore against Warrior and Druid. Against Warlocks it's important to try to guess whether they're playing Aggro/Zoo/Murlocs or Giants/Handlock. I try to wait until after they've mulliganed, and if they mulliganed most of their hand then I assume they're digging for Giants. (I got this tip from someone here on the forum, but I can't remember who. Maybe Nuba? Anyway, props to whoever that was! EDIT: I found it, it was Firebat who first suggested this. Thanks Firebat!) If you can be bothered, write down the names of every Warlock player you face, so that if you play against them again you'll know what they're playing.
My worst matchup is Shaman. They have efficient removal for my big guys and more card advantage than me, so it's really tough to win. But Shaman isn't a big part of the metagame at the moment, so I chose to ignore it and focus on the decks I faced more often.
I kept records of all my games from Rank 10 up, in order to get a better picture of the metagame and my deck's strengths and weaknesses. After hitting Rank 10 it took me 131 games to reach Legend, with a 63% win rate. The most common decks I faced were Druids (20% of the metagame, 81% win rate!), Warlock Aggro (19%, 68% win rate), Warrior Control (18%, 50% win rate), and Hunters (15%, 45% win rate). Both the Hunter numbers are way down from last season; in that season Hunters were my most common matchup, and my win rate against them was 55%. I think Hunters have finally started trying different strategies more, instead of cookie-cutter Secrets-&-Unleash decks, and it's made them less popular but harder to deal with.
Thoughts, comments, suggestions, and criticisms are welcome. :)
The Chillwind Yetis were my flexible slots, sometimes coming out for Ysera (whenever I thought there were more Druids than usual), a second Big Game Hunter (for Giants), and Sunwalker (for Zoo). I found the double Yeti to be the most successful all round though. Ysera was the most recent card to be cut from the deck. I was always disappointed when I drew her early in the game, and late game it rarely seemed worth spending a whole turn playing her. That kind of investment can too easily backfire if your opponent can efficiently remove her. Obviously there were games where she was amazing, providing lots of card advantage, particularly in the Druid mirror matches where they don't have good ways of getting rid of her. But replacing her with the second Yeti made my early and mid-game a lot smoother. The other problem with Ysera is that for the same reason that it's great in the mirror match because Druids don't have great spot removal, it makes my opponent's Faceless Manipulators (and sometimes Sylvanas Windrunner) really hard for me to deal with.
Already explained the lack of Ysera in the first post. :) I just feel that it doesn't do enough for its cost in the matchups where it matters. When I do slot her in, I take out a Chillwind Yeti, not an Ancient of War. I think running the full compliment of Ancients is important because it gives you inevitability in the long games. I always have more taunts and more big minions available, so my opponent runs out of answers before I run out of big threats. Ancient of War doubles as a game-ending threat that's extremely hard to deal with, and a solid answer that efficiently deals with multiple enemy threats. In other words, it's everything this deck wants.
Would Harison Jones be a good replacement for Ooze?
Yeah, but I think it's a bit too greedy. The two matchups where you want to kill weapons the most are Warriors and Hunters. Against Hunters you don't have time to wait for Harrison Jones, and the 5/4 body can actually be a liability. Misdirection can make Jones kill one of your taunts, or hit you in the face for 5, (even if you play around the trap by attacking with a different minion or your hero ability) whereas Acidic Swamp Ooze is small enough that it can run into one of your other minions safely. The Ooze is also nice and cheap, so it's good at testing traps. If you're lucky you'll hit Freezing Trap and be able to re-play the Ooze relatively cheaply if you need it again. Against Warriors Jones' 5/4 body would be nice, but I prefer to be able to play the Ooze cheaply in the early game or still have mana left over for other stuff mid-game. Early game Oozes are also good for killing Rogue weapons that have been buffed with Deadly Poison. Against Paladin I think Jones and Ooze are probably about equal. With Ooze there's the dream scenario where the opponent plays Tirion Fordring, and you go double Innervate, Faceless Manipulator, The Black Knight, and Acidic Swamp Ooze. :)
I am curious why not even 1 mark of the wild though? for that black knight synergy. Found it very useful for taking out legendarys when lacking other removal or already used bgh.
I tried Mark of the Wild for a while last season. I liked it before the Nat Pagle nerf, because I could coin Pagle first turn, then buff him second turn. Now I don't think Mark does enough. Most of my minions are big and/or have taunt already. I think I run more taunt than almost any deck. (8 taunts if you count the double Manipulators.) The Black Knight and Big Game Hunter are great because they're 2-for-1 removal cards, but if you use Mark of the Wild on the opponent's minion first then you lose all the value. I don't usually have too much trouble with enemy legendaries. Note that I play more Faceless Manipulators than most decks, so I can copy any minions that are hard to deal with. I would prefer to run the second Big Game Hunter before Mark of the Wild.
You played this all the way to legendary? Very nice. I don't own the black knight, what is a good alternative?
I don't think there really is any good alternative to The Black Knight. His effect is pretty unique. Maybe Starfire, because it's also 2-for-1 removal. It won't deal with big taunts though.
It's a great card, very versatile. Starfall is such a blowout against Zoo, and it's also excellent against Shaman, which is my worst matchup. Against Druids, which are most of the metagame currently, it kills a Chillwind Yeti or an Ancient Watcher. Starfall + Wrath can take down Ragnaros the Firelord. I think Fast Ramp decks are more Mid-range than my deck, so they don't need Starfall as much, but Big Ramp is more of a Control deck, so it needs AoE/sweepers. The extra Starfall also makes Bloodmage Thalnos a bit better.
I don't like it. For card advantage I'd rather play Starfire, which has an immediate effect on the board. And I don't think I would ever use Nourish for the extra mana crystals that late in the game.
I aproove of this version, it might seem too standard but it gives results :) keep it mind it doesnt have combos like other builds(no marks, no auctioneers, no pyro shenenigans), so altho it do is more stable, it doesnt offer you the possibilities of big comebacks I intend to try this version later, but I just wont use 2x Faceless Manipulator, I will, instead, use Sylvanas Windrunner and only 1 manipulator
Thanks. :) Let me know how Sylvanas Windrunner goes for you. Personally I'm not a fan. She's too unreliable, and too easy for the opponent to play around. Faceless Manipulator always gets the best minion on the board, even if that minion was already yours. Only drawback of Manipulator is they sometimes hang around in your hand waiting for a worthy target, but the good thing about that is they tend to be available when the juicy targets land. I lost count of how many games I won where my opponent played Ragnaros the Firelord into my double Manipulators.
Ok, so lets go with the thoughts here: I think this deck is unreliable, two games in a roll I lost to badly piloted controls (one druid, other warrior) because I had 2 starfalls rotting in my hand rather than other good cards, I think the pyromancer combos altho not as stable as starfalls do leave you with better room to work on more plays, starfall is a no go. Second, I really liked your idea of not using Ysera, but I personally have seen her winning too many games for me, so I cant really switch her up. I tried to, but didnt go as good.
First of all - thank you for a very fun deck. I've been really enjoying play-testing it.
However, i'm either playing it poorly or having a bad karma, so want to ask if you've experienced the same "slomps" i'm seeing. So here it is:
First 40 games up to rank 4: 70% win rate with meta consisting of 23% hunters, 15% druid, 15% shaman, 12% warrior control and 10% zoo.
Last 20 gamed dropped me to rank 6 with 35% win rate with meta consisting of 30% zoo, 15% warrior control, 15% druid, 15% rogue, 10% shaman, 5% hunter.
Seems like i was doing much better when facing hunters than zoo... Anyhow, maybe you have some miraculous suggestion or just want to discuss switching something according to meta :)
Great deck... i got to rank 4 so easily that began to think road to legendary is smooth. Guess it's not entirely without issues, so i'm venting :)
P.S. Once again - very dynamic and fun deck to play. Thanks.
Glad you're having fun, and some degree of success, with the deck. :)
Yes, I occasionally had slumps where I stalled for a short time while climbing the ladder. The metagame shifts a lot, so if you find you're running into a wall, sometimes it's best to just wait until the next day and try your luck again. At around rank 8 I remember running into tons of Shaman decks and not progressing, but the day after that I had a good run and cleared a few ranks. Just be patient. Also, I've been playing the deck for over a month already, so I've had quite a bit of practice with it. More practice will obviously improve your results. (I'm currently at 310 wins, aiming for my golden hero.)
I find the Zoo matchup relatively easy, with a 68% win rate. Against Zoo I usually mulligan everything except Wild Growth, Innervate, Sen'jin Shieldmasta, Keeper of the Grove, Wrath, and Swipe. If I already have Wild Growth or Innervate then I also keep Chillwind Yeti, Druid of the Claw, and Starfall. If I have some acceleration and a Swipe, then I keep Bloodmage Thalnos too. With any combination of these cards, you have a decent chance of stopping the initial rush and lasting long enough to get your board established. Once you reach the mid-game, you should win by dropping big taunt minions every turn. Ancient of War is pretty much unbeatable. They need to blow 3 or 4 cards to get rid of it, and if they don't kill it immediately you can usually copy it with Faceless Manipulator. At that point they'll just concede.
Try not to be greedy with Wrath. It's often tempting to use it for 1 damage and a card against a first-turn 2/1. It's almost always better to use your hero power instead, and save the Wrath for killing something that's too big for your hero power to deal with, like Knife Juggler. As a general rule, I never use the 1 damage option unless I'm killing something bigger than 4/1. Also, don't be greedy with your sweepers. Sometimes it's tempting to wait another turn to get a bigger swing out of Swipe or Starfall, but it's usually better to just kill 2 guys and save yourself some damage. That'll take you further into the late game where this deck really shines.
If you're still having trouble, or you really think Zoo is dominating the metagame, you could slot in a Sunwalker instead of Cairne Bloodhoof. Abomination can also be solid against Zoo, but you need to play it early while you can still afford to let it burn you for 2 health. I was always tempted to try out Mind Control Tech against Zoo, but never felt that it was really necessary. It would give you at least 3-for-1 card advantage, sometimes more. Doomsayer can buy you a turn or soak up some damage. A lot of Druid decks also run Wild Pyromancer for the Zoo matchup. So I think there are plenty of options available for customising decks like this to suit particular metagames. You just need to be aware that you're giving up some raw power and consistency when you do that.
Rank 3 after 130 games with 58% total win rate. Just beat legendary 200 something ramp druid with triple Ragnaros :) Worth mentioning that i have something like 97% win rate with this deck against druids :)
Haven't seen a shaman in 50 games. Hunters changed tune completely. Instead of control almost everyone switched to beast decks from last season (2 savannah, 2 hyenas, 2 rhynos, 2 houndmasters, longhorn and no secrets).
Can't, for all that is sacred, beat warlock giants. Besides that things look good :) Just hope i have enough free time on my hands to play enough games to have a chance going all the way. I figure that with 58% wins it's just a matter of games amount :)
I'm 100% on your side with this. I also run double faceless in my ramp druid and think it works great. I would really miss the mark of the wilds personally though, especially with two faceless. Also run Sylvanas. Never thought about starfall, but might replace my swipes with them, I see the utility.
Starfall is great, but I wouldn't replace Swipe for it. Swipe is so useful, and gives you a bit of reach by being able to burn out the enemy hero. Against (traditional) Hunters it hits them for 4 and wipes their board. I'd cut Mark of the Wild before I cut Swipe. I guess that's just personal preference though. Maybe 1 Starfall and 1 Mark?
Rank 3 after 130 games with 58% total win rate. Just beat legendary 200 something ramp druid with triple Ragnaros :) Worth mentioning that i have something like 97% win rate with this deck against druids :)
Haven't seen a shaman in 50 games. Hunters changed tune completely. Instead of control almost everyone switched to beast decks from last season (2 savannah, 2 hyenas, 2 rhynos, 2 houndmasters, longhorn and no secrets).
Can't, for all that is sacred, beat warlock giants. Besides that things look good :) Just hope i have enough free time on my hands to play enough games to have a chance going all the way. I figure that with 58% wins it's just a matter of games amount :)
Yeah, sometimes the Druid matches feel like a bye with this deck. :)
The Giants matchup isn't easy, but it shows up less than other decks, so I'm not too worried about it. While I was at about Rank 7 there was a whole bunch of them, and I put in the second Big Game Hunter, which really helped a lot. Having the double Faceless Manipulator is also great against Giants. I try to avoid using Wrath against their (silenced) Drakes, killing them with the hero power instead, because later on you need the Wraths to kill Giants with Starfall.
Good luck finishing the climb. Let me know when you hit Legendary. :)
I'm a little sceptical about the 2 faceless but I'll give it a shot :) Should I replace Bloodmage Thalnos with a Kobold Geomancer for the spell dmge or a Loot hoarder or something?
I'm a little sceptical about the 2 faceless but I'll give it a shot :) Should I replace Bloodmage Thalnos with a Kobold Geomancer for the spell dmge or a Loot hoarder or something?
Kobold Geomancer would be an adequate replacement for Bloodmage Thalnos. There are even some matchups where I'd prefer to have the Kobold, because it's harder to kill. Against Druids, for example, Thalnos never lasts more than 1 turn because he dies to the hero power. I think you'll find that the double Faceless Manipulator works better than you expect. This deck has very high quality minions, so there are almost always good targets for it. Against aggro they're extra taunts or whatever you need, and against control it really shines. When the opponent plays something big into double Faceless, or Faceless plus Big Game Hunter, you get such a big swing in board presence. In long games (versus Warriors or Druids), playing more Faceless Manipulators than your opponent guarantees that you never get outclassed on the board.
Hey Asuryan, I've been playing Nuba's ramp-deck with my druid and recently got a second faceless, so I decided to give your deck a try, although I was a bit sceptical if it would do well against zoo and hunter, which make up most of my matches. And how wrong I was. This is a very good deck, most of the times I can stabilize around 10 to 15 health against zoo and put out my own taunt-zoo. It's also very strong against hunters for the same reasons. The only changes I made are 1 mark of the wild instead of the second starfall and two sunwalkers instead of Cairne (whom I don't own yet) and one ancient of war. I like the sunwalkers better, cause they are more resiliant to hunters mark, doesn't matter if she has 1 hp, he has to hit her twice. Running two faceless is also much better than I thought. Thank you for posting your deck here.
I'm glad it's going well for you. :) Keep me posted on your progress.
Today I hit Legend Rank (American server) with this deck:
I played the same deck from Rank 25 at the start of last season all the way up to level 61 Legendary now, only adjusting a couple of slots along the way to adapt to metagame changes. The Chillwind Yetis were my flexible slots, sometimes coming out for Ysera (whenever I thought there were more Druids than usual), a second Big Game Hunter (for Giants), and Sunwalker (for Zoo). I found the double Yeti to be the most successful all round though. Ysera was the most recent card to be cut from the deck. I was always disappointed when I drew her early in the game, and late game it rarely seemed worth spending a whole turn playing her. That kind of investment can too easily backfire if your opponent can efficiently remove her. Obviously there were games where she was amazing, providing lots of card advantage, particularly in the Druid mirror matches where they don't have good ways of getting rid of her. But replacing her with the second Yeti made my early and mid-game a lot smoother. The other problem with Ysera is that for the same reason that it's great in the mirror match because Druids don't have great spot removal, it makes my opponent's Faceless Manipulators (and sometimes Sylvanas Windrunner) really hard for me to deal with.
I call this a Big Ramp deck because the mana curve is weighted so heavily towards big minions. I don't really play any 1 to 3-drops. (Big Game Hunter doesn't count because you never play it on turn 3. Same with Bloodmage Thalnos. Sometimes Acidic Swamp Ooze will come out early, but I usually hold onto it against decks that play weapons and mulligan it against decks that don't.) If you want to compare it with what I call Fast Ramp, check out Dreadmaker's list, with Harvest Golems and Earthen Ring Farseers. The mana curve looks horrible on paper, but works really well unless you get a really unlucky draw. The deck is designed to have a higher density of quality cards than my opponent in every matchup. Against Aggro I have plenty of big taunts and sweepers, and against Mid-range and Control I just have bigger minions and more of them. Long games usually reach a point where my opponent starts running out of steam, but I'm still dropping heavy hitters every turn.
Unlike most Druid decks, I don't play Force of Nature or Savage Roar, because I don't think they have enough impact on the board on their own. They're great together, but unless you get the combo I don't think they do enough. Likewise, I don't play Ancient Watchers or any way to give things taunt like Defender of Argus or Sunfury Protector. The Watchers are terrible on their own, and so many of my minions have taunt anyway that I don't want to run the taunt-givers. (I have 8 taunts, including the 2 Faceless Manipulators.) I also think it's a waste of a Keeper of the Grove if you silence your Watchers, because the Keepers are so useful against the opponent's minions. That makes my deck similar to Nuba's list. (Although I built mine independently and have 9 cards different than him.)
I try to mulligan into a Wild Growth and Innervates against every opponent. Some other cards I keep in certain matchups, like Keeper of the Grove against Zoo, Faceless Manipulator and Big Game Hunter against Giants, and Cairne Bloodhoof and sometimes Ancient of Lore against Warrior and Druid. Against Warlocks it's important to try to guess whether they're playing Aggro/Zoo/Murlocs or Giants/Handlock. I try to wait until after they've mulliganed, and if they mulliganed most of their hand then I assume they're digging for Giants. (I got this tip from someone here on the forum, but I can't remember who. Maybe Nuba? Anyway, props to whoever that was! EDIT: I found it, it was Firebat who first suggested this. Thanks Firebat!) If you can be bothered, write down the names of every Warlock player you face, so that if you play against them again you'll know what they're playing.
My worst matchup is Shaman. They have efficient removal for my big guys and more card advantage than me, so it's really tough to win. But Shaman isn't a big part of the metagame at the moment, so I chose to ignore it and focus on the decks I faced more often.
I kept records of all my games from Rank 10 up, in order to get a better picture of the metagame and my deck's strengths and weaknesses. After hitting Rank 10 it took me 131 games to reach Legend, with a 63% win rate. The most common decks I faced were Druids (20% of the metagame, 81% win rate!), Warlock Aggro (19%, 68% win rate), Warrior Control (18%, 50% win rate), and Hunters (15%, 45% win rate). Both the Hunter numbers are way down from last season; in that season Hunters were my most common matchup, and my win rate against them was 55%. I think Hunters have finally started trying different strategies more, instead of cookie-cutter Secrets-&-Unleash decks, and it's made them less popular but harder to deal with.
Thoughts, comments, suggestions, and criticisms are welcome. :)
EDIT: I've posted some gameplay videos on YouTube.
Already explained the lack of Ysera in the first post. :) I just feel that it doesn't do enough for its cost in the matchups where it matters. When I do slot her in, I take out a Chillwind Yeti, not an Ancient of War. I think running the full compliment of Ancients is important because it gives you inevitability in the long games. I always have more taunts and more big minions available, so my opponent runs out of answers before I run out of big threats. Ancient of War doubles as a game-ending threat that's extremely hard to deal with, and a solid answer that efficiently deals with multiple enemy threats. In other words, it's everything this deck wants.
Would Harison Jones be a good replacement for Ooze?
Yeah, but I think it's a bit too greedy. The two matchups where you want to kill weapons the most are Warriors and Hunters. Against Hunters you don't have time to wait for Harrison Jones, and the 5/4 body can actually be a liability. Misdirection can make Jones kill one of your taunts, or hit you in the face for 5, (even if you play around the trap by attacking with a different minion or your hero ability) whereas Acidic Swamp Ooze is small enough that it can run into one of your other minions safely. The Ooze is also nice and cheap, so it's good at testing traps. If you're lucky you'll hit Freezing Trap and be able to re-play the Ooze relatively cheaply if you need it again. Against Warriors Jones' 5/4 body would be nice, but I prefer to be able to play the Ooze cheaply in the early game or still have mana left over for other stuff mid-game. Early game Oozes are also good for killing Rogue weapons that have been buffed with Deadly Poison. Against Paladin I think Jones and Ooze are probably about equal. With Ooze there's the dream scenario where the opponent plays Tirion Fordring, and you go double Innervate, Faceless Manipulator, The Black Knight, and Acidic Swamp Ooze. :)
You played this all the way to legendary? Very nice. I don't own the black knight, what is a good alternative?
Solid deck! Been having a lot of fun with it..
Thoughts on Nourish in this deck?
I tried Mark of the Wild for a while last season. I liked it before the Nat Pagle nerf, because I could coin Pagle first turn, then buff him second turn. Now I don't think Mark does enough. Most of my minions are big and/or have taunt already. I think I run more taunt than almost any deck. (8 taunts if you count the double Manipulators.) The Black Knight and Big Game Hunter are great because they're 2-for-1 removal cards, but if you use Mark of the Wild on the opponent's minion first then you lose all the value. I don't usually have too much trouble with enemy legendaries. Note that I play more Faceless Manipulators than most decks, so I can copy any minions that are hard to deal with. I would prefer to run the second Big Game Hunter before Mark of the Wild.
I don't think there really is any good alternative to The Black Knight. His effect is pretty unique. Maybe Starfire, because it's also 2-for-1 removal. It won't deal with big taunts though.
It's a great card, very versatile. Starfall is such a blowout against Zoo, and it's also excellent against Shaman, which is my worst matchup. Against Druids, which are most of the metagame currently, it kills a Chillwind Yeti or an Ancient Watcher. Starfall + Wrath can take down Ragnaros the Firelord. I think Fast Ramp decks are more Mid-range than my deck, so they don't need Starfall as much, but Big Ramp is more of a Control deck, so it needs AoE/sweepers. The extra Starfall also makes Bloodmage Thalnos a bit better.
I don't like it. For card advantage I'd rather play Starfire, which has an immediate effect on the board. And I don't think I would ever use Nourish for the extra mana crystals that late in the game.
I aproove of this version, it might seem too standard but it gives results :)
keep it mind it doesnt have combos like other builds(no marks, no auctioneers, no pyro shenenigans), so altho it do is more stable, it doesnt offer you the possibilities of big comebacks
I intend to try this version later, but I just wont use 2x Faceless Manipulator, I will, instead, use Sylvanas Windrunner and only 1 manipulator
Retired Hearthstone Columnist
Thanks. :) Let me know how Sylvanas Windrunner goes for you. Personally I'm not a fan. She's too unreliable, and too easy for the opponent to play around. Faceless Manipulator always gets the best minion on the board, even if that minion was already yours. Only drawback of Manipulator is they sometimes hang around in your hand waiting for a worthy target, but the good thing about that is they tend to be available when the juicy targets land. I lost count of how many games I won where my opponent played Ragnaros the Firelord into my double Manipulators.
Ok, so lets go with the thoughts here:
I think this deck is unreliable, two games in a roll I lost to badly piloted controls (one druid, other warrior) because I had 2 starfalls rotting in my hand rather than other good cards, I think the pyromancer combos altho not as stable as starfalls do leave you with better room to work on more plays, starfall is a no go.
Second, I really liked your idea of not using Ysera, but I personally have seen her winning too many games for me, so I cant really switch her up. I tried to, but didnt go as good.
Retired Hearthstone Columnist
This is why I like playing double Faceless Manipulator. :D You can't do this with Sylvanas Windrunner:
First of all - thank you for a very fun deck. I've been really enjoying play-testing it.
However, i'm either playing it poorly or having a bad karma, so want to ask if you've experienced the same "slomps" i'm seeing. So here it is:
First 40 games up to rank 4: 70% win rate with meta consisting of 23% hunters, 15% druid, 15% shaman, 12% warrior control and 10% zoo.
Last 20 gamed dropped me to rank 6 with 35% win rate with meta consisting of 30% zoo, 15% warrior control, 15% druid, 15% rogue, 10% shaman, 5% hunter.
Seems like i was doing much better when facing hunters than zoo... Anyhow, maybe you have some miraculous suggestion or just want to discuss switching something according to meta :)
Great deck... i got to rank 4 so easily that began to think road to legendary is smooth. Guess it's not entirely without issues, so i'm venting :)
P.S. Once again - very dynamic and fun deck to play. Thanks.
Glad you're having fun, and some degree of success, with the deck. :)
Yes, I occasionally had slumps where I stalled for a short time while climbing the ladder. The metagame shifts a lot, so if you find you're running into a wall, sometimes it's best to just wait until the next day and try your luck again. At around rank 8 I remember running into tons of Shaman decks and not progressing, but the day after that I had a good run and cleared a few ranks. Just be patient. Also, I've been playing the deck for over a month already, so I've had quite a bit of practice with it. More practice will obviously improve your results. (I'm currently at 310 wins, aiming for my golden hero.)
I find the Zoo matchup relatively easy, with a 68% win rate. Against Zoo I usually mulligan everything except Wild Growth, Innervate, Sen'jin Shieldmasta, Keeper of the Grove, Wrath, and Swipe. If I already have Wild Growth or Innervate then I also keep Chillwind Yeti, Druid of the Claw, and Starfall. If I have some acceleration and a Swipe, then I keep Bloodmage Thalnos too. With any combination of these cards, you have a decent chance of stopping the initial rush and lasting long enough to get your board established. Once you reach the mid-game, you should win by dropping big taunt minions every turn. Ancient of War is pretty much unbeatable. They need to blow 3 or 4 cards to get rid of it, and if they don't kill it immediately you can usually copy it with Faceless Manipulator. At that point they'll just concede.
Try not to be greedy with Wrath. It's often tempting to use it for 1 damage and a card against a first-turn 2/1. It's almost always better to use your hero power instead, and save the Wrath for killing something that's too big for your hero power to deal with, like Knife Juggler. As a general rule, I never use the 1 damage option unless I'm killing something bigger than 4/1. Also, don't be greedy with your sweepers. Sometimes it's tempting to wait another turn to get a bigger swing out of Swipe or Starfall, but it's usually better to just kill 2 guys and save yourself some damage. That'll take you further into the late game where this deck really shines.
If you're still having trouble, or you really think Zoo is dominating the metagame, you could slot in a Sunwalker instead of Cairne Bloodhoof. Abomination can also be solid against Zoo, but you need to play it early while you can still afford to let it burn you for 2 health. I was always tempted to try out Mind Control Tech against Zoo, but never felt that it was really necessary. It would give you at least 3-for-1 card advantage, sometimes more. Doomsayer can buy you a turn or soak up some damage. A lot of Druid decks also run Wild Pyromancer for the Zoo matchup. So I think there are plenty of options available for customising decks like this to suit particular metagames. You just need to be aware that you're giving up some raw power and consistency when you do that.
Thank you very much for such a detailed answer :)
Rank 3 after 130 games with 58% total win rate. Just beat legendary 200 something ramp druid with triple Ragnaros :) Worth mentioning that i have something like 97% win rate with this deck against druids :)
Haven't seen a shaman in 50 games. Hunters changed tune completely. Instead of control almost everyone switched to beast decks from last season (2 savannah, 2 hyenas, 2 rhynos, 2 houndmasters, longhorn and no secrets).
Can't, for all that is sacred, beat warlock giants. Besides that things look good :) Just hope i have enough free time on my hands to play enough games to have a chance going all the way. I figure that with 58% wins it's just a matter of games amount :)
Starfall is great, but I wouldn't replace Swipe for it. Swipe is so useful, and gives you a bit of reach by being able to burn out the enemy hero. Against (traditional) Hunters it hits them for 4 and wipes their board. I'd cut Mark of the Wild before I cut Swipe. I guess that's just personal preference though. Maybe 1 Starfall and 1 Mark?
Yeah, sometimes the Druid matches feel like a bye with this deck. :)
The Giants matchup isn't easy, but it shows up less than other decks, so I'm not too worried about it. While I was at about Rank 7 there was a whole bunch of them, and I put in the second Big Game Hunter, which really helped a lot. Having the double Faceless Manipulator is also great against Giants. I try to avoid using Wrath against their (silenced) Drakes, killing them with the hero power instead, because later on you need the Wraths to kill Giants with Starfall.
Good luck finishing the climb. Let me know when you hit Legendary. :)
I'm a little sceptical about the 2 faceless but I'll give it a shot :) Should I replace Bloodmage Thalnos with a Kobold Geomancer for the spell dmge or a Loot hoarder or something?
Kobold Geomancer would be an adequate replacement for Bloodmage Thalnos. There are even some matchups where I'd prefer to have the Kobold, because it's harder to kill. Against Druids, for example, Thalnos never lasts more than 1 turn because he dies to the hero power. I think you'll find that the double Faceless Manipulator works better than you expect. This deck has very high quality minions, so there are almost always good targets for it. Against aggro they're extra taunts or whatever you need, and against control it really shines. When the opponent plays something big into double Faceless, or Faceless plus Big Game Hunter, you get such a big swing in board presence. In long games (versus Warriors or Druids), playing more Faceless Manipulators than your opponent guarantees that you never get outclassed on the board.
I'm glad it's going well for you. :) Keep me posted on your progress.
How do you beat Savannah hunter as this deck? I feel like I'm just getting swept by them and can't keep anything on the board. :(